DEFCON Mafia 4.0 - СЛАВА РОССИИ МАТЕРИ

[Vi]

You didn't really think you could have a throwback game without me showing up sometime, right?

I am confirming in. I have only read the first 50 pages and Day 4, so I am going to need a little time and help catching up. It shouldn't take long.

In the meantime, please enjoy this mood music.

[Vi]

@Andrius: Does Radar pick up Day-activated abilities?

[Vi]

Nahdia--
Would it be correct to assume that you would claim you have never targeted anyone?

[Vi]

Can you cancel your nuke on me vi

no

like maybe I'd consider it if I could
but I'm one of those nerds who reads the rules
so I can't

so while we wait for the inevitable, anything you want to say?

[Vi]

First, let's begin by clarifying the game state. <DanganRonpa music goes here>

Let's look at the role distribution.

Fighter (Role Cop) = RedCoyote (Town)
Night 1: ??
Night 2: ErrantParabola (not helpful)
Dead Day 3, nuked by Papa Zito (Town)

Espionage (Cop) = GuyInFreezer (Town)
Night 1: Fate (not helpful)
Night 2: hiplop (not Russian, about to be moot)
Result is irrelevant for Night 3, killed by Russians.

Aircraft Carrier (Roleblocker) = xRECKONERx (Town)
Night 1: ??
Night 2: This string of posts suggests LLD.
Night 3: ?? (not any of the nuclear silos)
Killed by the Terrorist on Night 3.

Battleship (Doctor) = Cephrir
Night 1: Cheetory6 (not helpful)
Night 2: GuyInFreezer (kill blocked on this Night)
Night 3: Cheetory6 (not helpful)
Currently alive. Results may be inaccurate.

Radar (Tracker) = ErrantParabola (Town)
Night 1: GuyInFreezer (targeted Fate, corroborated, doesn't really matter)
Night 2: hiplop (went nowhere)
Nuked Day 3 by Accountant (Town).

Covert Ops Team (Nuke Blocker) = SpyreX
Night 1: irrelevant
Night 2: I missed it but it turned out to be irrelevant
Night 3: Mastin (never confirmed as the nuke of text was recalled)
Currently alive. Results may be inaccurate.

Counterintelligence (Framer) = Nahdia
Night 1: As far as I can tell this is irrelevant.
Night 2: Presumably no one if Nahdia is Town. Potentially relevant outcomes include {hiplop, Espionage, not-Russian} and {hiplop, Radar, nowhere}.
Night 3: As far as I can tell this is irrelevant.
Currently alive. Results may be inaccurate.

Submarine (Secret Nukes) = Papa Zito (Town)
Day 3: Hits RedCoyote (Town).
Killed on Day 3 by the Terrorist Sub.

Eavesdrop (cause of real silliness in secret places) = Vaxkiller (Town)
Got stuff that's inthread somewhere.
Nuked on Day 4 by hiplop.

Air Base (Ascetic) = GreyICE
Currently alive. Technically the claim is unproven and such but etc.

Fallout Shelter (Un-nukeable) = Lady Lambdadelta
Currently alive. Technically the claim is unproven and such but etc.

Fail Safe (Counternuke) = MagnaofIllusion
Currently alive. Technically the claim is unproven and such but etc.

Strategic Missile Defense (Nukeblocker, the archnemesis of Nukebringer) = Ircher (Town)
Day 3: Brought down a nuke shot by Untrod Tripod aiming at xRECKONERx (Town).
Nuked Day 3 by Nukebringer (I made that joke two lines above without noticing this) (Russian).

Three Russians out of five are dead. Their kill targets were:
Night 2: Blocked. Options for why include {targeting GreyICE, LLD being the killer??, targeting GuyInFreezer (Town), utter carelessness}.
Night 3: GuyInFreezer (Town).

The Terrorist is still in play. Their kill targets were:
Night 1: Fate (Town)
Night 2: Spiffeh (Russian)
Day 3: Papa Zito (Town)
Night 3: xRECKONERx (Town)

All other players have nuclear silos. Ignoring the long stream of Town-on-Town angst, these are the ones that are relevant now.

hiplop nukes Nukebringer (Russian)
Untrod Tripod nukes xRECKONERx (Town) (but nuke was shot down by Ircher (Town))
Cheetory6 nukes Accountant (Town)
Mastin (Town) nukes Cephrir, but recalls it.
Untrod Tripod nukes Mastin (Town)
hiplop nukes Vaxkiller (Town)
Cheetory6 nukes hiplop

There will be, following hiplop's death, two Missile Silos in the game - belonging to me and Untrod Tripod.

---

Last thoughts before moving on to, y'know, actually read the thread (which I imagine will be less helpful than making this post).

1) Why was Fate killed?
2) The most difficult role to deal with - the Air Base - is still alive going into the endgame. I get why; the fact that it and the Fail Safe managed to sandwich together is kind of hilarious. However, given that I am Town and making the (at this point rather dubious) assumption that UT is Town, the Russians have no way whatsoever to unilaterally kill GreyICE beyond endgaming him. (The Terrorist + Sub does not have this problem.) Given the options of {Lynch GreyICE / Nuke GreyICE / leave GreyICE alive} without further thought about his allegiance, I'm not really sure what the optimal play is, but I think I would strike off nuking him simply because as long as he's alive, if he's not Russian, the window for the Russians to win is small and closing. Like for real 3p LyLo kingmaker closing.
2c1) Terrorist+Sub makes for some truly interesting LyLo dynamics in general.
2c2) The chance of the Russians targeting GreyICE for their kill, given that Nukebringer had a chance to nuke GreyICE and didn't, is pretty low. (They themselves would not have known for sure why their kill failed.)
3) Why hasn't LLD been going nutso over trying to decode the scum leaks? She's SO GOOD at codes, y'know.
4) At this point all of the power roles have failed us. That is the conclusion of this post. Normally I'd chug the wine and say Cephrir is Town despite letting the Cop die but I'm not going to given the circumstances and the possibility of Cephrir+LLD being scum. The two remaining missile silos (yes, including the one I replaced) have performed abominably (as have all the other missile silos tbf) because lol policy lynches don't work, and there's nothing left now. Whatever happens now is going to be on the strength of reads. :/
4c1) Despite just saying lol policy lynches don't work, I can't begin to express how glad I am to replace into a game right after all the new unreasonable spammy yelly people have been killed, leaving me with all the warm and familiar unreasonable spammy yelly people. Like I'm being serious.
5) Oh wow I'm only just now looking forward in the game state and:
*After hiplop dies there will be eight players left.
*The Terrorist Sub will almost certainly launch. (Seven players)
*We sure are lynching someone Today. (Six players)
*One, probably two people will die overNight. (Four players)
*And, of course, the Terrorist Sub will fire again. (Three players)
*Do we want to include the outside chance that me or UT will survive and get to nuke someone?
What I'm saying is that you people really screwed up /}

After hiplop dies this may need to be re-evaluated - I'm assuming a Town flip - but there's a non-zero chance that this will be the last non-formality lynch we get. Right now the Terrorist is in pretty excellent shape to win the game AFAICT; the path to victory for both the Americans and Russians goes through the Terrorist dying before Day 5 opens and the team with the advantage going onward is based on whether there are any crosskills.

This is, again, without actually attempting to read the thread for comprehension. If people would like to explain why they think so-and-so is Town based on game state stuff I'd be happy to hear it, but I'm waiting for a fliplop before doing anything too big.

[Vi]

also while I'm spamming the thread, likewoa I just noticed that there's an option to bump the topic. when did this happen and who thought it was a good idea

[Vi]

but yes continuing my useless Mafia theory

ideally we hit Terrorist Today, and go to 5p LyLo (because Terrorist Sub)
if me, UT, and Moai are alive Town can direct kills on four out of those five people

if we hit Russian Today (RT) we very likely wind up with 1-1-1 or 2-0-1/2-1-0. The former is 0% for America; the latter is generic LyLo.

if we hit American Today then... eh, I don't really want to put much thought into it

so yeah
would be sweet to find Russians to make 'em sweat but it's legit third-party hunting time for Town
get on my level JEEP

--
@Cephrir: I was thinking more the Climax Inference resolution music but I'm not turning down an investigation theme

[Vi]

Can you cancel your nuke on me vi

no

like maybe I'd consider it if I could
but I'm one of those nerds who reads the rules
so I can't

so while we wait for the inevitable, anything you want to say?

Surely an exception can be Granted b.c no one was in the slot when it could be recalled

I mean asking is free
but why should I recall it if I could

[Vi]

leaving me with all the warm and familiar unreasonable spammy yelly people

hi

hello yes welcome to the cool kids club
here's your WOOOOOSH and some magic bullets

if I dig through the back there may be some werebeer and dodgeballs
prolly all out of zeusbolts and nuclear dunks though

[Vi]

hey vi

hey vi

hey vi

let's pretend our nukes are bans and use them capriciously just like back in the day

uh

what nukes?

JUST LIKE BACK IN THE DAY AMISOFRIGGINGRITE

[Vi]

HAHAHA YES

[Vi]

like

I kind of wanted to stall until hiplop died to post anything

BUT I JUST CAN'T HELP BUT BE SO TOWN

COME AT ME NUKE

[Vi]

wait if hiplop shot that as Terrorist then he'd probably be aiming at GreyICE

uh

COME AT HIM NUKE

[Vi]

All right, time to actually do stuff.

1a) Is anyone actually questioning Nahdia-Town?
1b) Is anyone thinking of questioning Nahdia-Town in the future?
2) Why is UT not scum? Like seriously the Mastin nuke was super-opportunistic.
3) For SpyreX: Why, as Town, would you ever use your role? Even if it is on Mastin.
4) Does anyone other than GreyICE have a read to share on Moai?
5) What about Cephrir? Is it decided that he's Town after all...?
6) For LLD: Why haven't you been on about the scum codes?
7) Why did Fate die?

ugh did I really mean to do work on my first weekend back

I mean does it really matter who he shoots at? The odds SpyreX sabotaged Cheetory of all people have to be like 1%

If the nukes are Town then the Russians can only try to lynch you. Kinda hard for the Terrorist to win that way if that doesn't happen.

Hey, wait a minute. SpyreX sabotaged Mastin on Night

Two

, right...? Or did I get that wrong?

[Vi]

peggy: maybe alice?
____________________________________________________

we want to admire alice anyway.
______________________________________

expect adverse effect to peggy from 294 but if needed maybe

might also cause reverse
______________________________________

is admiring sam possible

______________________________________

that would be great
even better for peggy if it happens without alice delivering
______________________________________

peggy admire neil ?

hmm
this is clearly talking about a role action
basically this is saying that one of the scum has an active action that is NOT a nuke
is it not?
how many of those are there left
answer: SpyreX, Nahdia, Cephrir?

----

lol the Vaxkiller drops quote from My Immortal? How many people have such trashy taste as to post that?
Like, the only person I'd consider who would do it that has flipped scum is maybe Equinox, and even then only if channeling Shadoweh.
I can think of a few people who are currently alive who would do it though

Vaxkiller it would be really bloody useful in the future if you actually told us when these posts came in. Thank you and all future message grabbers in advance.

this is from Page 130 aka DAY 1 like what the hell people

[Vi]

Hey, wait a minute. SpyreX sabotaged Mastin on Night

Two

, right...? Or did I get that wrong?

Sh'mon, SpySpy. Things are about to get real.

[Vi]

I would quote My Immortal.

I

have

quoted My Immortal. Then I realized that I could potentially be in violation of site rules for posting pr0n, so I switched to lorem ipsum bacon.

Then the mod gave me an ingame warning for not posting in English.

Gosh I miss the old days when... wait, in the old days there was a scum person who tried to get me modkilled because I posted an image with red text on it, and red was the mod color. So never mind not much has changed.

[Vi]

...

admiring.

VI

ADMIRING

Yes yes I get it scum have a role action it's called a kill etc.

[Vi]

People who have medium-term memories: Was there anyone

other than Fate

who wanted Untrod Tripod dead on Day 1?

Vi, if you were to admire someone, from a scum perspective, what kind of action do you think they're taking?

Doc is the first action that comes to mind. Then again, how would you explain "mining"? Is there necessarily a correlation?

[Vi]

Hey, wait a minute. SpyreX sabotaged Mastin on Night

Two

, right...? Or did I get that wrong?

Sh'mon, SpySpy. Things are about to get real.

Yes. Night 2 was the night Spiffeh died, the next day was the first day of DEFCON 1 which was the day mastin was sabbed.

Then, what we're looking at is either
*SpyreX did not take an action Night 3, or
*the bag of Cheetos was opened Night 3 and the nuke on hiplop is past its expiration date, or
*SpyreX is incapable of noticing who has nuclear silos when they are launching all around him

and SpaceX not being all that forthcoming about this is making me go hmm

[Vi]

3) Doesn't SpyreX confirm a player non-SK every time he uses his role?

He wouldn't have known that on Night 2.

5) Isn't Cephrir obviously town. If he was scum Nukebringer nukes GIF, 110% of the time. 125% of the time? 110000000% of the time? I don't see a world in which Cephrir is scum and they don't nuke GIF after shooting me N2.

...yeah, that's fair. (Counterpoint: scum Doc lives how much of the time after not protecting the Cop?)

Untrod Tripod [11] -

mastina, Ser Arthur Dayne,

Nahdia,

McMenno,

hiplop,

ErrantParabola, Ircher,

Something_Smart,

Vaxkiller, Fate,

Spiffeh

Something_Smart [7]

-

RedCoyote,

Untrod Tripod,

GuyInFreezer, Accountant,

MagnaofIllusion,

Nukebringer,

Cephrir

mastina [3]

- Lady Lambdadelta,

Papa Zito,

SpyreX
Lady Lambdadelta [1] - GreyICE

Not Voting [2] -

xRECKONERx, Cheetory6

this is the height of the UT wagon, more or less
where are the Russians
there are two Russians missing and I can comfortably see UT as one of them
depending on where the known scum were before jumping on late

[Vi]

Something_Smart [10]

-

RedCoyote,

Spiffeh,

Untrod Tripod,

GuyInFreezer, Fate,

SpyreX,

Accountant,

MagnaofIllusion, GreyICE,

Nukebringer

Untrod Tripod [9] -

mastina, Ser Arthur Dayne,

Nahdia,

McMenno,

hiplop,

ErrantParabola, Ircher,

Something_Smart,

Cephrir

mastina [2]

- Lady Lambdadelta,

Papa Zito

Not Voting [3] -

xRECKONERx, Cheetory6, Vaxkiller

Same question, given that from what I can tell S_S was a bus that picked its kids up early and went across town. Like even looking back further it's tough to find any scum on UT.

Here's a breaking point.

Untrod Tripod [5] -

mastina, Cheetory6, Ser Arthur Dayne,

Nukebringer,

Fate

mastina [5]

- Lady Lambdadelta, SpyreX,

Papa Zito, GuyInFreezer,

Untrod Tripod

Something_Smart [5]

-

RedCoyote,

Cephrir,

Accountant,

MagnaofIllusion,

Spiffeh

Ircher [2] - McMenno, ErrantParabola
Vaxkiller [1]

- GreyICE

McMenno [1] - Ircher
GuyInFreezer [1]

-

Something_Smart

SpyreX [1] -

Vaxkiller

Not Voting [3] - hiplop, Nahdia,

xRECKONERx

yeah here's a spot where you have a bunch of blue names and a bunch of living players together on someone who turned out Town
oh and one of them happens to be UT who has a 4/1 split on him

[Vi]

oh bby {LLD, SpyreX, UT} conforms so hard to my preconceived notions

...god what have I become, another spammer like the rest of us

did I say us

um

u m m m m m

[Vi]

People who have medium-term memories: Was there anyone

other than Fate

who wanted Untrod Tripod dead on Day 1?

Vi, if you were to admire someone, from a scum perspective, what kind of action do you think they're taking?

Doc is the first action that comes to mind. Then again, how would you explain "mining"? Is there necessarily a correlation?

so am I the terrorist or am I scum? The fate kill was from the terrorist

you are ropebait
if hiplop flips terrorist then you can more specifically be narrowed down to "Russian"

Martina nuke

Martina McBride? You nuked an unmistakably American celebrity????

[Vi]

@UT: I like to believe that you fire COMMUNIST missiles like the Nodong but you've given them nuclear capabilities and renamed them Loldongs

As a shock to all i sabotaged mastin again

curiously this is day #2 where this cannot be validated

[Vi]

also I like everyone else just noticed (while reading mastin's iso no less) that the carrier doesn't block kills
so LLD getting blocked to prevent the scum kill is out
which doesn't really change anything but I feel bad because I knew I had read that already

@LLD

why did you not want SpyreX to claim in this post? I don't understand the theory behind it.

Wait didnt zitos mastin nuke land and fail

Isn't it just a bit late to claim you don't understand things?

Like saying "lol opportunistic" is so tone deaf and illiterate that I'm starting to doubt my Cheetory townread

You have reads? I must have missed them.

[Vi]

[Day 3, DEFCON 1 - Game Event]

Papa Zito looked furtively at his watch. He walked over to the short-range scanner and saw nothing. "Ops, where did that ICBM go?" He turned to look at the two young men operating the scanners.

"No idea. It just disappeared a minute ago."

Papa Zito shook us head. "ICBMs do not just disappear in-flight."

"We'll check again. If its out there, we'll find it." The men saluted and returned to their work.

"Back to your posts," He said to the Spectator a gathered around. "We're not dead yet."

As his staff saluted and returned to battlestations, he glanced at his watch one last time before heading to his quarters for a drink.

That's what i thought damnit vi

Okay, that was a reading comprehension failure on my part. I apologize deeply.

And now for some things I won't apologize about.
1) What incentive do you have as Town to use this ability?
2) Given that it blocks the Terrorist's Sub, what incentive do you have as Town to use this ability

on the same person as a previous Day?

[Vi]

also isn't hiplop being good at Mafia a meme or something

because skillzlop would have committed suicide by now as any alignment

actually I just want to spend as little time playing Mafia as possible and being unable to move forward until midnight or something just prolongs the amount of time I have to etc.

but if all you have to offer are stonerposts then please do take the swift boat out as soon as the nuke cannot be recalled

---

Covert Ops Team: (*NEW*) In order to carry out a successful nuclear strike, it is crucial to ensure the missile will not be deflected and the enemy left unscathed and free to retaliate. Special infiltration teams are secretly positioned in every enemy nation, read to make sure this happens when the brass gives the word. {Each night, you may target a player. If target player is currently deploying a

missile silo

, you sabotage it. Until the next night phase, if the

missile silo

uses either function, the missile will launch but not detonate. For nuclear launch mode, the ICBM will not detonate and the target will not die. For Anti-ballistic missile mode, the missile will launch but will not intercept its target.}

never mind
it turns out I read the rules just as well as everyone else

[Vi]

GreyICE, why is Nahdia Town?

[Vi]

Hey you dont get to make me question.my existance then.just float away validate.me

You're a good person who is also potentially tipsy.

As far as using the ability goes, I acknowledge that the way you used it is not inconsistent with a Town mindset. I also acknowledge that I have no idea how you (or I or anyone else) would use it differently as scum.

[Vi]

I realize no one is pressuring me rn (except MoI kinda) but just wanted to point out that unless I'm scum with Cephrir as my partner, taking that huge risk in shooting GiF is some serious meshugaas coming from me. With radar dead I could just let GiF get false checks.

I'm not convinced it's as clean as you're describing it. Presumably under that scenario you would be getting Russians to investigate as Americans since that's the kind of investigation that doesn't lead to you getting nuked, but you would have to outguess which person GiF would target. The ability really isn't that good. Given that, it would be substantially better to off the Cop (especially since the Terrorist doesn't really have much reason to do so).

Then she begged to be POE nuked yesterday.

tbh I want to file this aside LLD's "I'm American because I've been begging to be investigated", where you're betting that asking for an ostensibly pro-Town action to happen to you results in a lower chance of it actually happening.

That said, I'll watch where this is line of conversation is going.

[Vi]

As scum id have not announced it for sure tried to hide more in the weeds waay longer.

And no way would i have sabotaged crazyface cause you know hes on for only good scum things

She, and... this is actually kinda convincing. Unless you're playing DEEP cover operative. Or LLD is scum. Because you had no reason to doubt Mastina besides the usual (aka she's cray cray)

Actually I am going to ask about this one while things play out because I don't follow. Unless Mastin actually said IMMA SHOOT TOWNZ then there's no reason to believe that this wouldn't backfire. I'm not sure where LLD comes into this.

Nukes are a plentiful commodity. All scum-Nahdia needs is one player to go "oh that does sound like a good idea, NUKES AWAY LAWL"

Granted. (Why did no one nuke Nahdia, aside from how it would be the least satisfying policy lynch available?)

[Vi]

That... doesn't sound like a particularly destructive thing? Unless she hadn't revealed at that time that she was the Fallout Shelter, merely that she was asking for investigations.

[Vi]

I don't disagree and would add that she has already more or less claimed as meta that it's one of the abilities she would go for as scum.

But before we move on from it, please see 5557, unless you think it has no value.

[Vi]

Now we're crosstalking.

Now we're playing with POWER.

NUCLEAR

POWER.

So we're basically in the same place with {LLD, SpX, UT}. I acknowledge that I have done very little to know what Moai has been up to this game and will rely on you for that.

You (Cheetory) seem out based on the replace out interactions

Need I remind you of the time you literally spent five minutes berating me IRL about how bad my scum game was.
If you read me as anything other than Town you will have hell to pay from the time I die to the time many years from now I forget that this happened.

[Vi]

You're thinking Cowboy Bebop Redux, right? Nobody told me I was being Townread as I tried so hard to break up UK and these two shouty new people and get them to turn on each other. Oops, no, never mind, they're all power roles and they're basically confirmed to each other on Day 1. Screw all of you anime people.

Also you may have hell to pay

already

for just how facile the criteria are for you judging my scum game.
I am currently on course to begin finalizing choice words for describing your competence in a few hours when one of us gets nuked.

[Vi]

but back on business

So we're basically in the same place with {LLD, SpX, UT}. I acknowledge that I have done very little to know what Moai has been up to this game and will rely on you for that.

Are we in agreement on this? I'll do better than my last game and actually stick to it, thereby not losing in a shameful and disgraceful manner.

[Vi]

TBH I think you're working yourself up. Run your paranoia over me, predict flips, it doesn't matter. This is DEFCON; you should be getting your lawn chair out and watching the glowy weapons-grade plutonium fireworks while singing songs about God and America as you unload your guns and your dog from your enormous 4WD pickup truck. Don't forget the barbecue; people as high up as we are in the chain of command can afford to rent a whole pig cooker. (Vinegar-based, not tomato-based, and get the good rub on there.)

Vote: Lady Lambdadelta

(L-3)

[Vi]

Screw you, hiplop, I was literally losing sleep over waiting for that.

Now I actually have to expend brain cells identifying which scum is which faction due to needing to hit Terrorist as previously stated.

[Vi]

Okay. Rechecking.
Eight players. Minus me. Seven players.
Nahdia is still out because Trrst wouldn't likely ask for a utility nuke. Six players.
Cephrir as Doctor/SK...?? who doesn't protect the Cop...? and doesn't shoot the Cop...? I'm going to go with five players.
LLD can have much said about her but one thing is "not SK". Four players.

GreyICE has the immune-to-everything-but-nukes deployment. This may resolve itself soon though.
Moai has no one saying anything about them, plus a deployment that really only helps the SK.
UT... eh? Would SK nuke Reck that way?
SpyreX is... still alive? I guess that's kind of baseline.

Lynching the terrorist today is priority for a shot at a town win. The two votes on the one not a terrorist bother the shit out of me.

Good point.

Unvote: Lady Lambdadelta

[Vi]

[NORAD SYSTEM]

ERROR: MULTIPLE TARGETS DETECTED: GreyICE, Vi, Untrod Tripod, Nahdia, Cephrir

the least helpful possibilities

TBQH it's not going for UT and if we're going to talk magic Town reads it's probably not going for me no matter what GreyICE thinks of my beautiful Town game.

IDK I feel like I could expend effort to go into what happens if GreyICE does or does not eat this nuke but I also feel like there's no point in it when said nuke will come down in like a day and a half.

As far as deployments, I really don't see a terrorist taking

[...]

Covert Ops (and actually use it). It's just contrary to their wincon.

You say that, but I would have thought the same thing about Town.

[Vi]

As my performance in this thread should indicate, just because you say something doesn't mean that people read it or remember it. Plus I'm looking around and I don't see UT ever acknowledging one of your posts or anything.

[Vi]

IDK. After reading stuff and stuff UT's nuke on Reck was kind of the opposite of under the radar.

But I also feel like it's midnight and I feel like we're going to re-evaluate anyway once the last nuke lands.

[Vi]

Since Andrius previously missed it,

Unvote: Lady Lambdadelta

Unvote

Okay, basic math time. I don't know where the nuke will land, but lets say it hits Cephrir, or me, or whatever (not Vi now, obviously). It hits town (which it will if it's either of us). That leaves us at 4:2:1. Lynch SK, 4:2. Scum NK, 3:2. With Vi and UT as our two Nukes. If Vi is scum, that's game.

Vi says mathematically we have to lynch the serial killer.

I say I might owe my wife an apology.

Vote: Vi

It's these fucking logical inconsistencies that get you every fucking time.

*me blinks*

Yeah, those numbers make sense (replacing Vi with UT in this scenario).

So we're screwed, because what you seem to be missing is that lynching scum Today is even worse.

fake edit actually we're not

Assuming the nuke hits Town (good assumption, that), we're at 4:2:1. Lynch Russian - which seems easier to do than finding a Terrorist - to reach 4:1:1. Options include 4:0:0 (Town win), 3:1:0 (MyLo), 3:0:1 -> 2:0:1 (LyLo), and 2:1:1 (could go any way).

I like that better.

Vote: Lady Lambdadelta

(L-4)
Would also vote UT because 1) scum and 2) the above Russian nuke scenario would not apply, although I'd forgive people for not going along with that.

Vi always makes the same mistake. Vi has a plan and the plan is 100% scum.

Um, what sources do you have for this? Because I'm having difficulty remembering a time when I tried to do :theory: things as scum when the plan didn't go directly through all of my scumpartners.

No SpyreX. I think Vi had this sitting in a word document and copy/pasted every bit of it into the QT when Vax died.

I wasn't in the game when Vaxkiller died IIRC. I get that you like the smell but this isn't really the time to keep your pants on your head.

Also if this is not LLD scumposting then I may have to rescind all prior compliments about her Town play.

[Vi]

Well I guess not mathematically guaranteed if you aren't the target.

What's the first thing SpyreX says? "I bet Cephrir's the target". Vi has at least four different ways to win planned out in the scum QT right now, and they're in one of the scenarios.

Double posting to point out that last night PST, GreyICE

actually thought

I replaced into a game at 3PM my time,

anticipating a scum slot and super-hype after Vaxkiller died before I replaced in

, and had

four master plans on how to win ready to go

while I presumably made a huge act of not reading anything in the thread.

tbqh this may not be alignment-relevant but it's still fun to juggle thumbtacks around his inflated ego
unfortunately it may be one of those lead-lined balloons

[Vi]

Weren't you paying attention? Voting for the Terrorist is out of fashion. That's why I'm voting for, among other things, the one person who

cannot

be Terrorist.

Also you have weird ideas of what "never" and "literally" mean.

[Vi]

Mod, what happens if a town fail safe and a scum are the only ones left alive? Does the game instantly end in favour of the scum? Is MoI considered still a "threat" to the EU?

or does the scum have to actually issue a kill order on MoI... and then live for 48 hours?

?

Fail Safe:

Courtesy of Dr Strangelove or: How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb. {If a player targets you with a nuclear launch, you automatically launch a nuclear weapon at that player.

If you are killed by the Stealth Bomber, you may make a single post in the thread containing only the words Nuke: [PLAYERNAME] up to 72 hours after your death.

Your nukes cannot be recalled or prevented by any means.}

In the words of the youth of yesteryear, "ha ha oh wow". I appreciate how it doesn't work in the event of a Terrorist attack. And, with a literal reading of the Win Condition...

You are aligned with Russia. You win if, for 48 hours, all threats to the EU have been neutralized and at least one European remains alive.

...with an implied

or nothing can prevent the same

, which means it's not one of those wussy 50% rules. One Russian + Fail Safe that doesn't get lynched or Terrorized (or nuked I guess) = no Russian victory.

This is... two roles that the Russians cannot have alive at endgame, now (plus Air Base)? Has the informed minority ever won DEFCON?

Because if scum are forced to kill MoI and it ends in a tie... they would be forced to kill MoI and not me tonight, and force MoI to make a more blind shot.

Which simultaneously gives us a chance to win, right?

I think you've disqualified yourself from using the word "force". That said, if we assume 4-2-1 coming out of this nuke,
*if we lynch Russkie (4-1-1 get some info), and assuming the Terrorist hits Town, if the Russian hits the Terrorist, then they go to 3-1-0 with at least one of {Fail Safe, Air Base} in play. The only way this ends in a Russian victory is if Moai is the last Russian.
*if we lynch Russkie (4-1-1) and assuming the Terrorist hits Town, if the Russian hits the Fail Safe, then it becomes 2-1-1 with at least two nukes in play, one of which is directed by the Terrorist. At that point the game is basically decided by the Fail Safe (including and especially if Moai is the Terrorist ) or whichever nukes are left in play.
*if we lynch Town (3-2-1) then... the Terrorist hits Russian (3-1-1), if the Russians hit the Terrorist, it goes to (3-1-0) and it becomes LyLo. The dynamics of either of them being the Fail Safe are weird and I don't really care enough to do much with this because it doesn't matter let's let someone else roll the dice.

@mod: What happens in an endgame with one Russian and Air Base?

It seems like there's no winner

because there's not enough nuclear death

.

I have a long response to type up to Vi at some point mentioning how Vi breadcrumbed a role post 1 in Fate's game using an incredibly complex reference to a previous game that was both undeniable, undetectable, and ironclad, and asked "would I do this as scum" then not only had no real answer to our universal "yes" but then also subsequently flipped scum. But this will do.

Why are you going off of one game that happened in 2011 for all your Vi meta needs?
Also I'm looking back at the game now because I have no idea what you're talking about and I tried claiming/crumbing Miller as scum? In a game where someone else also claimed Miller with better flavor (but was third-party Lyncher)? Do you see how there might be some difference here? I mean I get that trousers are not usually made from clear material but etc.

[Vi]

also and tbf it is completely consistent for me to listen to GreyICE about who the Russians are and LLD about who the Terrorist is, neither of your words are in vain

I really just want to say that because while it is kind of in character for GreyICE to use :badmeta: against me it's still impressive to watch it happen in real time

MAD and Happy Ever After is Terrorist Win, Vi.

You are aligned with only yourself. You win if everyone else has been neutralized, even if you are no longer alive.

well "neutralized" is a weird term

[Vi]

HEY WAIT A MINUTE
I thought you were supposed to be able to see right through me LLD
whytf am I on your scumlist

[Vi]

HEY WAIT A MINUTE
I thought you were supposed to be able to see right through me LLD
whytf am I on your scumlist

this is the amazing part because people who have no experience with me would probably be like uhhhhh wtf is this and how is it not scummy
but NO I'm surrounded by people who have copious experience with Vi-Town
even with like three years of rust and meta drift this one should be a slow pitch

[Vi]

HEY WAIT A MINUTE
I thought you were supposed to be able to see right through me LLD
whytf am I on your scumlist

1) PoE: Nahdia and MoI are likely town
2) Logic: Scum have 1 more nuke, probably
3) Cheetory's behaviour: He nuked Hippo and made it seem like it was his emotional state that caused it.

1) I feel like I asked for people to tell me why Moai is Town and words happened and my brain did not process them. There's still a fuzzy spot where MoI should be. For my sake, could you etc.?
2) What the hell kind of "Logic" is that? It's not a probabilistic argument. (This is disregarding how I think UT is scum for other reasons.)
3)

screw hiplop

I cannot make a counterargument to this at this time, nor will I be able to before the game is over.

cut: by that same token why didn't UT nuke GreyICE
I mean bearing in mind there's a simple explanation that no one thought things through

[Vi]

Please hold for answers.

*grips Andrius*

That sure is an interesting group of people not voting.

[Vi]

I deeply apologize for the poorly-worded question. I know how uncomfortable it is to have to field them, and don't want to be part of the problem.

@mod: If the game reaches a state where there are only two players of different alignments alive, and neither of them can kill the other, who wins?

[Vi]

@mod: can has updaet on subz pleez

[Vi]

/me waves buh-bye to cephrir

Please hold for answers.

*grips Andrius*

That sure is an interesting group of people not voting.

NUKES ARE IN AIR, DUMMY.

Dummy? Next you're going to tell me not to die dateless.

[Vi]

I really hate doing this, but I have an appreciation of the chances of both Russians being in {SpyreX, Untrod Tripod, MagnaofIllusion} and I'm getting told in bold letters that they will be able to quickhammer a cat.

Unvote: Lady Lambdadelta

[Vi]

rereading the above post makes me feel extra-dirty
the kind of dirty you feel when you know someone is scum and you don't vote for them because being cautious and playing odds and other such spent uranium and then they win

it's like watching the mod say YOU LOSE (sucker) in sloooooooow mooooootioooooon

at the same time I would also feel squicky if UT quickdonged the cat
I mean... look you know what I mean

[Vi]

I think that the time is now for {LLD, GreyICE, UT, SpyreX} to start voting. It really should be Ijji Modo at this point, should it not?

[Vi]

I think that the time is now for {LLD, GreyICE, UT, SpyreX} to start voting. It really should be Ijji Modo at this point, should it not?

No. Still V/LA but voting should absolutely wait until

1. The Terrorist nuke actually hits.
2. I have some time to lay out my thoughts.

Until then ...

That's a good image. /}

The chance that there will actually be a lynch before the Terrorist nuke hits - or for that matter before you lay out your thoughts - is pretty low, and I'm quite okay with that.
However, I think that the remainder of the Day should be driven by those four,

ne ce pas

?

[Vi]

My thing is i just want like 2 people i can bank them game on and its just not there.

Is that so?

[Vi]

MoI?

[Vi]

Yet you see where I'm going with this, correct?

[Vi]

I'm really confused by how many and which scum you're looking at. Judging from how everyone in the game has written off Nahdia (and frankly if Nahdia is scum she's outplaying everyone else) and considering you yourself just said MoI-SK was your thought, I'm going to guess no.

Then, look at it like this.
*It has been basically agreed that Nahdia is Town. No one is voting Nahdia without an enormous shift in opinion.
*It has been basically agreed that Cheetory and/or me is Town, barring GreyICE plying some of the most excellent meta since... the last time someone tried to use meta on me. No one is voting for me without an enormous shift in opinion or a tremendous lack of credibility.
*No one has expressed any interest in MoI being scum. GreyICE calls Town, you've called Town, LLD calls Town, UT seems to have mistaken this for a Mardi Gras planning thread and is attempting to hand out penis beads. No one is voting MoI without an enormous shift in opinion.

Then, there are four players remaining after Cephrir dies (we should only be so lucky for it to hit UT or GreyICE instead). Which of these is the last Townie?

I

can't decide... but presumably each of you in the four should have a very good idea. Just how badly do you have to suck to miss any of three scum in a pool of three people?

Of course it's not perfect. It's possible that one of the three remaining scum is not in the group of three for some reason, and it looks like that person is generally thought to be MoI... who is generally assumed to be the Terrorist if not Town... and as a reminder, we're not up for lynching the Terrorist Today. So can you hit one of two scum in a group of three?

And

that's

why I'd recommend you four get voting, and let the other three decide how to pick the pieces up.

@Nahdia

, unvote as soon as feasible, if you would.

[Vi]

...I beg your pardon? Could you tweak your Talking Pet a bit?

[Vi]

It seems counterintuitive but is the right move here a mislynch as drunk as it sounds

This sounds kind of drunk. Who, exactly, were you planning on mislynching?

[Vi]

Also and for the record hitting Terrorist Today goes to 4-2-0 -> 3-2-0 and if UT is Russian and I'm the NK that's game over. Otherwise you hope whichever silo is alive can hit Russian or else it's the same outcome. UT being Terrorist is kind of hilarious and if that happens then you get vanilla 3-2-0 LyLo with a side of scorched earth if MoI isn't Russian.

Hitting Russian Today means 4-1-1 and power roles happen to such an extent that it's not flowing out of my NyQuiled brain atm.

3-2-1 means if the Terrorist doesn't die overNight they win or force PD or somesuch. Like I'm open-minded but I don't see how lynching Town is ever better than not lynching Town.

Honestly the idea of UT-Terrorist makes this whole thing kind of cool.

Also I think we can probably assume that the two scum factions know who each other are at this point, at least to enough of a degree to get out of Night 4 crosskilling if they want.

[Vi]

Cephrir, Russian (Battleship), was Nuked D4.

PLOT TWIST
*deletes post, starts over*

actually I deleted too much

@MoI:

Could you explain the whole doubled-nukes thing about UT? It's been said a few times and I didn't understand it any of those times.

Either way, there's a strong likelihood the last Russian is lynchproof today.

You can just say my name.
I'd make an argument here about how making your scumpartner lynchproof is a really bad idea if you're doing it at the same time you plan on not protecting the Cop but etc.

In case it's not blindingly obvious I say things purely to warp reality such that those things become false. By which I mean I'm flat-footed and need time to reassess.

[Vi]

gdi lld are you actually town ffs jfc mew

[Vi]

When did Nahdia's V/LA start?

[Vi]

Never mind I found it.

Also posting to remind everyone to brace themselves for postgame when it's pointed out that the only two Americans who have ever tried to nuke scum thus far have been Mastin and hiplop. Prepare your spleens.

I still don't buy UT being Town pending MoI's argument. Like intentional nonentity+vanity nukes+being in wrong places at right times+the vote counts basically show the scum team imploding from day 1 so idgaf about counterwagons plus he could be Terrorist+butts.

GreyICE 4981 and company opens the question of "would someone be this wrong as scum", especially with the super-brash call scum hitting the Air Base instead of the claimed Cop WHILE assuming the scum assumed (without evidence) that the Cop was under Doctor protection, which actually managed to get the original Cephrir nuke called off. Nahdia around 4877 is the opposite, whether it looks like too much knowledge and not enough wishing for death.

I'm going to commit to SpyreX as Town because I don't know of any scum - or any person - who responds to "how badly do you have to suck to miss one of three scum in a group of three people" with "well what if I shoot myself" with a straight face. You can't really control anticipate all possible reactions but what the heck was

that

.

LLD vs. Cephrir makes LLD look really positive. I don't wish to belabor the point of how much caution I have about giving the cat anything more than a bag of nip, such as a Town read, but etc.

I am consciously aware of how I have absolutely no read of any kind on Moai, nor any memory of anything he has posted.

Why were people saying hiplop was the Terrorist?

I assume that at this point you are SK hunting?

well tbf hitting SK > hitting nuke Russian > hitting non-nuke Russian at this time, but any scum will do

--

To borrow a word from Moai, GreyICE being at L-1 is noted.

[Vi]

Wait, I get the UT-Terrorist thing now. Mastin targeted Papa Zito with a nuke (which could still have been recalled but whichever), and then the SK-Sub targeted Papa Zito before Mastin's nuke resolved.

Iiiiiii get iiiiiiiit

[Vi]

Wait, I get the UT-Terrorist thing now. Mastin targeted Papa Zito with a nuke (which could still have been recalled but whichever), and then the SK-Sub targeted Papa Zito before Mastin's nuke resolved.

Iiiiiii get iiiiiiiit

...okay it's like two hours later and I'm looking at this now and this... doesn't resolve anything about UT. It only really works if the Terrorist knew that Mastin's nuke was going to fail...

...doesn't... it...?

[Vi]

The other theory is that the Terrorist wasn't paying close enough attention to the thread and didn't know the Nuke on Papa was launched.

so which of us is Bad at Mafia, eh

The only person who knew the nuke was gonna fail was SpyreX. But he took Covert Ops. Why in God's name would SpyreX take Covert Ops as terrorist??? Not to mention, why incriminate himself by shooting a nuked player and then claim they were the only one who could know that nuke would fail.

Haven't we already asked why Cephrir would not protect the Cop, and seen how that ended?

I have to go to sleep. My attachment to reality is getting too loose.

[Vi]

Vi if you're town and giving me any amount of nip...

...you should be grateful? I mean the whole thread has been high on plutonium; why not try more natural substances.

Frankly this talk about both of you quitting Mafia and/or deleting your accounts makes me legitimately happy. That's not even a personal attack; it's my desire to see both of you happier people. Have we finally reached a point where people are going to internalize that Mafia is a toxic game? I mean this is DEFCON; everyone was going into this saying

most enjoyable game yeaaaaah

and if this is as good as it gets then frigging etc. Step out of your comfort zones and do something else with your lives.

Yet I'm not going to end your traumas soon, because I'm not hammering GreyICE.

Vote: SpyreX

(L-3)

Between the attractiveness of a shot of opportunity on the other Sub, the vote of opportunity on GreyICE, the fact that he's the razor response to the doubled nukes, and the fact that no one alive is as much of a space cadet as hiplop, this is the vote I'd be most fine with getting wrong Today if it is wrong.

[Vi]

I do, for the reasons stated.

Further theory post coming.

[Vi]

It's important to note that the Terrorist should be the target Today. The Terrorist still has at least two kills per cycle, but as importantly, the lone surviving Russian is now boxed in hard. It's not impossible for them to win, but their path to victory goes through
1) GreyICE being endeadened by means other than the factional kill, and
2) being able to survive MagnaofIllusion's Fail Safe, i.e. Moai doesn't reach endgame.

Even if one of them is the remaining Russian, it's still a hem. Moai-as-Russian in particular cannot win this game without GreyICE being lynched or hit by one of the Terrorist's weapons. Meanwhile, tbqh Russia's best play is to hit Moai Tonight while there's still a wide pool of bystanders and pray that the Fail Safe misses them. (Moai dying does not strictly imply that GreyICE is scum, so it's up to Moai who to target.)

So in summary I'm going to chalk up this GreyICE wagon as a not-gonna-happen-Today sort of thing unless people have better reason to buy into him being the SK than SpyreX, and ohh haay is that UT coasting behind LLD on that wagon why yes it is huh I couldn't have imagined UT would be in such a position on a wagon on someone the Russians can't unilaterally kill

[Vi]

Vi talking like GreyICE can still be scum is like watching someone desperately try to cling to the last remnants of hope for their game.

I... suppose it's not

completely

impossible for you to take that message away from two posts where I basically said it was SpyreX and UT.

@Moai 6012: Protecting PZ over the Cop? When evidence strongly pointed to a failed kill anyway, therefore the Doc protection wouldn't apply? I don't think the intentional double-up theory holds.

Dude

[Fate]

is like the Gordon Ramsey of MafiaScum.

I would enjoy Fate so much more if that was true.

Explain this because I very much disagree. Given only member of the scum team who got ANY pressure was Something I have a hard time getting into a head space that “VCA shows an imploding team”.

Looking at the scum in isolation and also looking at the vote counts I got the distinct impression that they were all after each other. Except Cephrir who didn't want to attack anyone ever.

No way on God’s green Earth Commies no-killed that Night after losing Something Day 1.

Grey is certified not Commie.

I want to protest, but at this time I have no better argument for what happened N2. None of the explanations make sense.

I do, however, like the idea of GreyICE not being Russian simply because he's the one person Russians cannot unilaterally kill and

oh look

he's the person at L-1. I find the idea of lynching someone out of {LLD, UT, SpyreX} to be incredibly attractive for this reason.

[Vi]

GreyICE, a (very) charitable interpretation of your posts against LLD, me, and UT is that you have no idea what's going on.

Would you like to join this SpyreX wagon? I've already laid out the case, and I would throw in that SpyreX has to have a hidden Sub because if you rearrange the letters in his name you get "sexy PR" and so far he's claimed something totally lame so he

has

to be holding out on us.

[Vi]

Everywhere I go people refer to me as that or Jesus Christ or the like, and yet I stay so humble~

[Vi]

That's really not necessary. Unless you're talking to me, in which case it's still really not necessary.
Let's get the nuke game over with and

then

deal with the toxic fallout... which I think was the plan from the signup thread onward anyway :V

[Vi]

Nahdia, would you care to make a move?
It looks like everyone except you and Moai has entered a stable behavior loop, so there's probably little left to glean from waiting.

[Vi]

Uuuuhhggg. I don't know, dude. LLD hasn't convinced me on GreyICE at all, and I don't see why UT and SpyreX are voting there either. I understand the argument for voting SpyreX but just... his play and his draft are so un-SK like. Unless he's going for "do stuff the SK would never do". awiiefjosrehgui

I don't think you understand my point. I won't claim to direct what you do, but get off the damn sidelines.

I don't really care about deployments being scummy or not.

hm maybe I should? I haven't paid attention to who claimed which drafts but I know that you basically either get your first pick or nothing. That said "people with bad SK deployments" pretty much only eliminates Nahdia and maybe SpyreX though.

Vi is planning to nuke you at the last minute.

I would also point out that I have no expectation of SEEING the last minute. I think you've figured this out, but nuking GreyICE should 100% be considered a scum claim. Me and GreyICE being the last two players are alive such that this kind of suspicion is warranted is... possible, I guess? but considering the game state now and where it's going, etc. And I'd point out that my play recently, if coming from scum, has really been the self-aware triple-cross where I point out that GreyICE is a must-dead for Russia and then proceed to argue

against

lynching him, knowing that this makes people so hype FOR doing so because nothing I suggest ever works and people live to shoot my ideas down. As scum I would have stfu about that bit a long time ago and waited for someone else to inevitably figure it out (preferably after I hammered GreyICE AS I COULD HAVE DONE FOR THE PAST 24 HOURS AT MY LEISURE WITHOUT FATAL REPERCUSSIONS INSTEAD OF RESISTING THE WAGON SO HARD).

The most charitable things I have to say about the rest of the overnight discussion are mostly not charitable enough to post, but I would like to ask GreyICE if he has ever dug through his ass to find all those games where he's seen me as Town, or if he's been satisfied with whatever fits his predecided notion of me being scum.

[Vi]

Untrod Tripod, please nuke me at your earliest convenience.

MagnaofIllusion, please nuke Nahdia.

If the game still isn't over, I'd suggest lynching LLD but tbh I think that should do it.

[Vi]

While waiting for the thread to open I did this magical thing called "reading the thread", a critically underlooked part of my strategy from Yesterday.
Nahdia's play was very clearly different from everyone else's, specifically in the sense of not putting any Russians under suspicion or doing anything at all anytime. Compared to everyone else it was some intense lurkerscum.

This is coming from someone who really wanted LLD to be scum for calling me scum despite our history, but it's more likely that she's just a terrible human being who has been caught up in the moment. Although after I post "everyone but you in {LLD, GreyICE, UT, SpyreX} is scum" what real American actually asks GreyICE for advice. <____<

[Vi]

Let's not go drunk kthx.

But... i cant disagree with that

With two nukes in play we go down to three-player LyLo. I'm assuming you've sabotaged me; if not, I can nuke LLD for the trulz. Regardless, you+UT+LLD seems pretty cool for a final three.

(true story if I didn't find a way for it to fail in the event of UT-scum I was going to make my first post Today nuking the Fail Safe and putting on cool sunglasses - even if you sabotaged me I'm pretty sure Fail Safe would go off)

[Vi]

[ ] voting Something_Smart before it was inevitable
[ ] naming any actual Russians as scum with any degree of threat (Nukebringer wound up as one of six at 1228) (also note a lack of any desire to kill Cephrir D4)
[x] naming any actual Russians as Town (Cephrir)
[ ] pushing anyone who was scum as scum (this jumps out from like every post made D3)
[ ] pushing anyone with any force
[x] but still putting forth the effort to make images
[ ] leaning on "hiplop is totes the Terrorist"
[ ] being totally inoffensive while the Town kills itself

I suppose there are some things checked off, if you want a technical definition if "did stuff".

[Vi]

Although i cant see a vi scheme here and thats almost exactly what i expected

This

is

my Vi scheme. I thought about leaving my nuke in counter position (and would have excitedly told Andrius that I finally found a use for it) but with LLD, UT, and Moai all calling for my death it would further my Win Condition to accept death and be incredibly annoying until the nuke lands.

If you trust me to be town
Vi nuke nahdia
Nahdia suicides
Ut launches at vi
Moi nukes ut
Ut and i vote lld

Will that work

I don't immediately have a problem with this. If Nahdia doesn't suicide it costs her faction the game. Any objections from elsewhere?

If Vi can suicide nuke, then MoI can just shoot Nahdia and Vi can suicide if town?

I do not want you holding the last nuke. No way and no how.

[Vi]

If Vi can suicide nuke, then MoI can just shoot Nahdia and Vi can suicide if town?

I do not want you holding the last nuke. No way and no how.

Yeah I was afraid of this. If two nukes land then UT-Russian can end the game if his nuke hasn't been shot. I don't want to entertain that possibility,

especially

now that UT is going in this direction.

So make my day, UT.

[Vi]

[ ] voting Something_Smart before it was inevitable
[ ] naming any actual Russians as scum with any degree of threat (Nukebringer wound up as one of six at 1228) (also note a lack of any desire to kill Cephrir D4)
[x] naming any actual Russians as Town (Cephrir)
[ ] pushing anyone who was scum as scum (this jumps out from like every post made D3)
[ ] pushing anyone with any force
[x] but still putting forth the effort to make images
[ ] leaning on "hiplop is totes the Terrorist"
[ ] being totally inoffensive while the Town kills itself

I suppose there are some things checked off, if you want a technical definition if "did stuff".

sounds more like you're accusing me of being wrong. which is true. i did stuff tho, it was just, the wrong stuff.

The wrong stuff with some beautiful accuracy and precision. Mastin got nuked and reviled for less.

---

Why... the hell... is it that as soon as the game is supposed to make sense, someone has to be the living definition of "scumfuck". Every time. Every game.

SpyreX we need to go find another Mafia site.

[Vi]

im like, really good at being really bad.

Please change your avatar to Megamind at your earliest convenience.

...yeah. I can't think of anything that takes into account safely disposing of two nuclear silos... perfectly.

@mod: How does the defensive mode of a nuclear silo even work, anyway? Would a player with a nuclear silo in defensive mode ever have the option to commit suicide?

[Vi]

Annnnndddy pleeease i summon you

If a nuke is in the air at scum that lands at night do scum get a nk off

Or... if you vote and suicide after the vote, will it trigger if your vote brought us to night.

If a Russian is alive at night they can use their Stealth Bomber ability.

If you vote and hammer someone, and suicide after, the day effectively ends at the hammer vote. You have to be alive to string someone else up.

It would be legal for a hypothetical Russian to hammer someone, send in a Stealth Bomber kill, and then suicide inthread while waiting for you to lock the thread?

(I have no idea where SpyreX is going with this but I'm nodding along)

Uhhhh can Nahdia suicide if Vi's nuke is sabotaged...?

yes

[Vi]

also I would like to point out that this game continues my general trend of games where I get a daykill and do not get to use it (at least for its intended purpose)

yes I remember the chaos dunk and I wish I forgot that time that I executed RedCoyote (and GreyICE IIRC)

but still

Come on, I want you to do it IwantyoutodoitcomeonHITME. HIT ME. COME ON HIT ME.

HIT ME.

/me gets a lawn chair and reclines a bit

Any reason why you want SpyreX lynched?

--

SpyreX, why did you jump ship so quickly to lynching UT vs. LLD? Once me and Nahdia are dead you should be voting for whoever's scum.

@mod: How does the defensive mode of a nuclear silo even work, anyway? Would a player with a nuclear silo in defensive mode ever have the option to commit suicide?

{The first nuclear launch targeting you each day will fail.}

So I would post the nuclear launch, validating that it took place, and then cancel it.

So, no, you couldn't suicide while defense is active since you know the nuke won't hit you.

pfiffle
That idea won't work, then. Recalculating...

[Vi]

Any reason why you want SpyreX lynched?

I flipped a coin between him and LLD.

Oh well as long as it's not

provable

randomness.

I'm assuming you think UT-Russian is right out?

[Vi]

Hey, wait a minute.

If UT launches a nuke it's a scumclaim and SpyreX+LLD can do the slam jam before it lands. So that's not a concern.

[Vi]

Does it matter what I say about you, Vi? You're

literally

asking to be nuked. If fatalism is truly your last resort then good luck with that, sibling.

well to be fair there's no stopwatch on my life yet

I'll take whatever I can get for votes of confidence. Even if you didn't actually say that I'm Town and me having to do this is stupid, I'll mentally edit that in.

Tomorrow-now-today is a work day, so I will be going to sleep.

@mods reading this thread

please reconsider my request to ban everyone on the West Coast.

I want SpyreX to answer my question but

I'm going to do my part when I wake up, so any objections or better ideas need to come quickly.

She's also not russian because she is confirmed to be not russian by the investigate role

*not Terrorist

[Vi]

and which investigative role, besides

[Vi]

I don't think LLD is Russian because hell, I don't know, I doubt her rage came from scum, call me naive.

I fully expect LLD-scum to be capable of and willing to weaponize Cheetory's depression in order to get him to replace out, regardless of whether there was a tactical advantage to be gained.

TBQH I really don't want to be another statistic where LLD survives to endgame as scum, this time with a scummy deployment that has been remarked over and over again in this thread to be 100% consistent with her scum meta to take.

But I also don't want her to win at my expense because of how she got Cheetory to replace out.
Like that shit needs to get dunked on and if I were really clueless and couldn't decide in 3p LyLo I'd hammer that without apology. So thanks for making it hard, UT. (that being what

she

said)

----

SpyreX, I think the last angle I have not considered is that it would be feasible to nuke LLD (+ suicide) and then lynch UT. This would leave Nahdia alive.

FMPOV the optimal LyLo is you, me, and UT; but the chance of Moai letting that happen is low. As it is, I'd feel bad losing to

any

of these three.

But as mentioned previously, before entering the Day I would have said UT would be the one left alive.
Now I'm frankly not sure because of what a great idea it would be for scum to hit the Fail Safe and then block the retaliatory nuke.

Nuke to be launched when you respond. Death tailored to order.

[Vi]

Is someone with Fallout Shelter ahble to suicide even?

@mod

It should be. I imagine this is the sort of thing that gets revealed on impact.

Also tbf I pretty clearly stated that the Fail Safe had to die last Night for the Russian to win. The exception, which I only just noticed overNight, is LLD. To that end before I read the thread I had some expectation of you to be the NK.

[Vi]

*This meaning the fallout shelter

[Vi]

Also tbf I pretty clearly stated that the Fail Safe had to die last Night for the Russian to win. The exception, which I only just noticed overNight, is LLD. To that end before I read the thread I had some expectation of you to be the NK.

that being the case, LLD would be foolish to kill anyone but MoI

But then scum with a nuclear silo could also block the Fail Safe.

Point being that UT-scum killing Moai last Night wouldn't be optimal but if it had to happen it would be a darn good time to shift to defense for what's probably the first time in four games of DEFCON.

[Vi]

That's what I needed to read. Say sayonahdia.

Nuke: Nahdia

Best of.

[Vi]

Andrius you didn't tell me Fail Safe was basically PowerThirst for missiles. I would have been so much more hype for getting shot at if I'd known I would get nuked at least 50 times more than anyone else in the history of DEFCON.

It's kind of a cop-out but my first bit of advice is that Nahdia is not Town until and unless she suicides. (My death is irrevocable so either I'm Town or lol nothing matters, and I'd advise you prepare for the former.)

Also I don't think it was ever made clear but the mod post implies that defensive nuke loses hard to Fail Safe. I guess now we know.

[Vi]

I regret to inform you that even as scum I would be making this much effort. Probably. Actually I have no idea.

I just finished reading UT in isolation again. He actually did a credible job of calling out Nukebringer when it mattered. Really if we were only looking at days 1-3 this would seem easy but between the defensive nuke and how pretty much everything he has posted today seems like obvious glib bullshit, etc. Except the latter is pretty much standard UT.

[Vi]

At potluck being antisocial. One more iso done.

Why are we assuming SpyreX is Town again, other than sweet participation today?

@LLD how do you know Fail Safe beats Fallout Shelter?

[Vi]

So why, god why, didn't MoI nuke UT after he claimed to go into defensive mode?

1) because he lined this shot on me up and explicitly said he would do this
2) because you lined this shot on me up and explicitly said he should do this

Also I'm still kind of lost on how the Russians couldn't afford to lynch the SK Yesterday, because what happened was exactly the situation required for the Russians to have a chance (the removal of the Air Base and Fail Safe), as I was explicitly saying Yesterday. Moreover, if the Terrorist was the Air Base, Russia basically had to make that lynch or have a solid probability of dying in the crossfire Today.

But nope don't mind me clearly obvious nukebait scum over here still in amazement that the Nekonfidante who got to play me on a string at gratuitous length last game caught me out.

[Vi]

UT, would you care to remind LLD what the last game I played was?

[Vi]

Why is it that all of your arguments start with the assumption that everyone knew GreyICE was the Terrorist?

[Vi]

At potluck being antisocial. One more iso done.

Why are we assuming SpyreX is Town again, other than sweet participation today?

@LLD how do you know Fail Safe beats Fallout Shelter?

Is what i said. You decide if cephir and i would ever be manufactured to the point the mod stepped in

Please show me where this happened.

[Vi]

SpyreX - why do you think Andrius was talking to you specifically?

[Vi]

Ok vi. Let's try this different before you die

Who looks like they knew gi was the sk. Cause that's gonna be skums.

Also who is town

Pedit 4 minutes after? You guys are killing me

This is not a game where you ask me to do the work.
This is a game where you answer your own questions and I offer commentary. Especially since the

prima facie

answer to your first question seems rather obvious.

LLD, would you mind moving on?

[Vi]

To SpyreX. The conversation with UT has pretty much played out.

[Vi]

I'm here. Free from the pressures of work and keeping up with the game, I've had time to read the thread (yes, yes, dead people, I imagine I hear you) and I'm pretty close to ready to make a decision. I'll begin typing my recommendation now.

[Vi]

But first, some hilarious posts in hindsight (not including basically every .gif posted but yes all of those count).

TOWN
mastina
cheetory
Something-Smart
hiplop
Cephrir

SCUM
SpyreX
Untrod Tripod

k that's all ive got for now

no clue what to think about LLD atm. inclined to believe mastin's read but idk. the whole GIMME THIS USELESS THING SO I CAN BE A CODEBREAKER AND REAL TOWN HELPER seems forced and actor like and ugh.

p.edit: i have no idea what you're talking about

I love how Ircher's read on me is just "he's scum because the things he did are indicative of scum."

98% terrorist takes sub and a defensive or ends up at sub n silo

other people I would proxy my nuke to: Reck, Spyrex, LLD

i think you're overestimating here and severely

for example here is a list of players who would scare me more than fate if i were scum

1. SpyreX
4. MagnaofIllusion
8. Lady Lambdadelta
11. Cheetory6
13. xRECKONERx
16. GreyICE
17. Ser Arthur Dayne
19. hiplop
23. Spiffeh

[NORAD SYSTEM] Reanalyzing flight trajectory…
[NORAD SYSTEM]

ERROR: MULTIPLE TARGETS DETECTED: GreyICE, Papa Zito, Nukebringer

[NORAD SYSTEM] Estimating time until impact...
[NORAD SYSTEM] Warhead will detonate in (expired on 2016-12-05 12:44:46)

This was the Terrorist nuke D3.

LLD and Spyrex are my kneejerk scumreads.

I really don't see why Nahdia/you/Vax are out of the pile though.
Like, sure? I flux between thinking there's townie moments from you and Nahdia and to some extent I struggle to imagine Vax being able to come up with all of this for so long.
But that's literally nothing that would make me pull all of you out of the sortpile entirely. That's fucking ridiculous.

Vi is one of my favourite retired mods.

*Capt. Falcon salute*
After D4 I was pretty demoralized by how, even with your mental state when you exited the game, you could have done as well or better than me had you stayed in the game.
But now that I've had a chance to get a grasp on the game, I'm going to end it in a way that, right or wrong, won't be an embarrassment.

Also as a general comment GuyInFreezer >> everyone in this game and it's not even close. Like I know from experience that a Cop role gives you superpowers but you can't tell me that D1 play wasn't on point.

[Vi]

So first let's talk about Untrod Tripod.

Here's where he voted Something_Smart. The vote count at this time was like 11 votes on Vaxkiller and people like SpyreX (among others) were on the "more wagons more nukes please let's get it over with" train. This looks like a vote that scum with any skill would not make, but after that the scum started wafting suspicion onto S_S (without voting), so I can play along with this not being totally indicative of the two being of different alignments. As an example of this being what would have to be a hard bus here's a sample post of UT continuing at it even under the threat of a huge wagon, even to the extent of putting S_S over Mastin at equal votes.

Now let's check out 2764 where Something_Smart claimed Cop. Check out these sweet reactions:
Cephrir - immediately jumps off
Untrod Tripod - calls him on it repeatedly and begins what might be the strongest play he's ever had all game
Cephrir gets c-c-c-called out and awkwardly muddles
Lady Lambdadelta - expresses no opinion whatsoever and instead asks to be Copped!
SpyreX - ambiguously unvotes
Spiffeh - jumps off with next post before attempting to push UT through, but then starts offering to have a wagon on someone else (Nukebringer being one of those - would Spiffeh bounce from one scum wagon to another scum wagon before offering to push a wagon on a third scum?) It actually works and the wagons disintegrate into chaos.
SpyreX - does not vote UT again, even if it's not a hammer it would be L-1

Also consider that UT went for the even harder bus by calling out Nukebringer. I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time UT mentioned Nukebringer as scum but I didn't find the previous time in my second pass.

So either you think both Spiffeh and UT are doing Vi-tier listen-to-me-and-I-will-lead-you-through-all-my-buddies-before-going-uh-oh-ha-ha-idk-lol bussing or UT is pretty hardcore Town. This isn't even factoring in the rest of the gameplay which IMO favors UT being Town muchly given what we know.

I do not support an Untrod Tripod lynch.

---

Now let's consider Lady Lambdadelta versus SpyreX. This was actually quite a bit more difficult, because superficially both of them have the same actions throughout the entire 250-page thread, except SpyreX has mostly cruised in other peoples' wakes with a beer in both hands since he didn't need one to keep on the nuke button.

Here's Post 26, where Something_Smart comes in and begins posting in such a way that even when I was reading this thread for lulz in the Atlanta airport I wanted to nuke this slot.
1) SpyreX wants to nuke it, and is the first person to suggest it. Later in 874 he calls him again on faking dumbTown.
2) UT comes close behind.
3) LLD actually never mentions him

at any point(!!)

first mention in post 2424, but DOES spend a lot of time going on about the previous game and setup spec rather than getting into the back and forth of everyone accusing everyone (except Mastin, perennial pinata). I mean look at this a bit later when LLD starts hitting all around Something_Smart (continues to next page).

More from unimportant phase trolling...
934 - LLD calls Cephrir Town on the back of Nukebringer saying the same.
968- SpyreX calls Cephrir out
1228 - SpyreX calls Nukebringer out unprompted (hindsight makes this whole exchange pretty funny)
1841 - SpyreX calls Spiffeh transparently Town

Now let's look here, where UT gets to L-1. SpyreX has already claimed to hammer whoever, and yet isn't even on the UT wagon... and in fact votes S_S instead. As scum he'd have motivation to whine a bit before going onto his scumpartner even if he ultimately would.

Now let's look at 3078, where LLD argues forcefully against Something_Smart's wagon. Note that this and the post above where she asked to be investigated are literally the only times she has made any reference to the leading wagons, which is more damning than being wrong here. Instead she spent most of her time doing what she had been doing for most of Day 1, making personal attacks on Mastin because lol!mastin and otherwise :arguingwithscum: . But she sure as hell could empty-vote Something_Smart the instant GiF claimed. (Fair 'n' balanced: SpyreX did the same here.)

In Day 2 we can see Nukebringer and SAD getting competing wagons. UT went for Nukebringer as he lined up earlier; LLD does not a few posts down (taking the larger wagon without further explanation or commentary). SpyreX doesn't jump on the wagon, which looks better in hindsight but isn't really a strong indicator. He never makes it onto the SAD wagon.

On Day 3 both of them took the ErrantParabola wagon without making much effort to do much about it (for some reason LLD did this instead of voting Mastin). Both of them frankly sucked on accuracy in general. LLD made this weird string of posts saying Reck should get nuked but was probably not Russian (aside, but GreyICE pushing Reck-scum so hard really should have been a giveaway since that was basically an SK Cop in this setup), plus making the false assertion that Reck thought LLD targeted him for death. This is SpyreX's response to Reck's correct accusation that SpyreX basically ordered the Reck nuke.

I don't really care that LLD pushed for Cephrir to die D4 because that was pretty much what had to happen once the Cop died. It's probably the only actual forceful gameplay-related thing LLD did all game other than ask to be investigated, play with eavesdrops, and push GreyICE.

Note that if you buy into the scum hitting GreyICE D2, a scummerson would not make the post SpyreX did here.

---

So now let's get to LLD's arguments for why she CAN'T be scum.

*Asking to be investigated as a high-priority investigation role as scum from Day 1 onward - This started as a response to S_S's Cop claim, which is suspicious af. Plus, so what? If the Cop said LLD was scum, then the Cop's scum. Or the Counterintelligence is scum. If the Cop isn't someone reputable like GiF that's two bodies well ahead of you, plus she can't be nuked so there will probably be a lot of people dying other than her on the way to the lynch. Besides, LLD never claimed her role until Day 3, so it's not like there was a REASON for GiF to investigate her, just handwavey softclaiming. (Why wouldn't you hardclaim Fallout Shelter if your goal was to get investigated and/or die at Night?)
*Thinking GreyICE was the Fail Safe at great Personal Risk - Once again, the two roles that MUST die for the Russians to win are Air Base and Fail Safe. Scum already knew who the Air Base was, because they attempted to shoot it. They didn't get an option except to waft suspicion on GreyICE anyhow, and obviously they couldn't claim they knew GreyICE was Air Base, and they needed to get the Fail Safe into the open anyway. I don't see a contradiction here (beyond the usual "why did Nukebringer nuke Ircher", which frankly no one can explain and I'm okay with that). (Full disclosure: SpyreX barely mentioned GreyICE except to call Town.) Besides, what personal risk from calling GreyICE the wrong thing? I didn't exactly see anyone queuing up to skin a cat until D4.

As for who on the Air Base wagon was scum - which 100% needed to happen Yesterday for the Russians to win - I'm going to say it's Lady Lambdadelta because it's pretty unlikely that SpyreX was like "oh heyo free jump onto wagon on PERSON I NEED TO SEE DEAD NO MATTER WHAT"

Also Fallout Shelter, scummy deployment, etc.
Also trufax everyone who has argued that I'm scum because I'm some Master Manipulator has been scum or Benmage.


Based on all of the above,

I conclude that the last scum is Lady Lambdadelta.

---

Purely to supplement, I'm going to quote this.

I don't think LLD is Russian because hell, I don't know, I doubt her rage came from scum, call me naive.

I fully expect LLD-scum to be capable of and willing to weaponize Cheetory's depression in order to get him to replace out, regardless of whether there was a tactical advantage to be gained.

TBQH I really don't want to be another statistic where LLD survives to endgame as scum, this time with a scummy deployment that has been remarked over and over again in this thread to be 100% consistent with her scum meta to take.

But I also don't want her to win at my expense because of how she got Cheetory to replace out.
Like that shit needs to get dunked on and if I were really clueless and couldn't decide in 3p LyLo I'd hammer that without apology.

Look I've only been in this thread almost a week now and I've had two late nights and one morning lost to it.
This is already way too much attachment to this game for my tastes and if it comes down to justice then here it is.

---

It doesn't matter if I live or die, all the same people need to vote, and I actually do want to die a painful radioactive death because frankly that would make for a much more interesting mod scene.

Vote: Lady Lambdadelta

(L-2)

So it ends.

[Vi]

Correction, the scum knew who the Fail Safe was before Day 4 opened, because Cephrir was scum and they targeted GreyICE. Ultimately it doesn't matter.

Also I'd say I'm not sure who would target GreyICE of all people - who was playing the same UTR game you were - with a kill N2 but that would be a lie.

Conclusion is unchanged.

[Vi]

Despite your assertion that you would look at both of the other "living" players, and despite having had time and motivation to do so, you have not.

Despite me

actually laying out reasons

why the person you have been pushing is very probably not scum and despite saying the other person is probably not scum with misgivings, your response was only to the parts that concerned you.

And, you're arguing with someone who, if this goes into overtime, neither will be around to cast a vote against you nor will be around for you to suggest lynching. Extra points for that person being demonstrably Town.

This is empty self-preservation. Be ruined.

[Vi]

IDK. My Sabotage was lined up, it wouldn't'a worked on Fail Safe, who else was going to nuke UT. The only thing it would do is stop wacky one-Day nuclear fire sales.

More importantly, does that outweigh what I posted above?

[Vi]

also I would point out that UT's claim is not provable, but again, does that outweigh what I posted above

[Vi]

I don't think my opinion will change. That's as close as it gets to being ready.

[Vi]

I 100% die as soon as the Day ends. There is no need for me to commit suicide and, besides, I did everything short of ask to have my skies darkened by the unnatural fruits of lined-up bad reasoning and reads; why should I have cowardice reflected in the official record?

Get on with it.

[Vi]

As I watch the skies, I will know that soon I'll be able to see the bombs from my window.
When that happens I'll only have seconds left to brace myself for inescapable death.
In those last seconds, I will have no regrets.

---

SpyreX, I voted first.

[Vi]

It doesn't matter. Get outplayed.

You said you were going to quit Mafia, so start now.

[Vi]

It doesn't matter. Get outplayed.

You said you were going to quit Mafia, so start now.

"get outplayed"?

You just lynched town in LYLO.

It happens. Because you got outplayed.

--

GreyICE, it's indescribably rude for you to show up before the mod ends the game. Please also quit playing Mafia.

[Vi]

DEFCON: TOTAL WAR

Does this mean that there will be no choice but to have ALL NUKES ALL THE TIME instead of those first two Day phases?

Hey, I'm just asking the question I know several people have...

[Vi]

Gorkington actually seems like an appropriate name to bring to a Russian thread.

also
have you found something positive to replace Mafia with
that's important too
gather the people who like you here and do something cool

[Vi]

But im honestly surprised the dead thread didnt just throw hands up the second lld threw the insult at me. Cause really it would have taken vi shaking sense into me or an act of god to change the end

As long as you're alive you may as well assume that the dead thread hates you. There's no sense in reading it.

I almost even asked vi to nuke ut.

It wouldn't have done anything because defensive mode.

UT is president Putin

More images next time, please.

[Vi]

I didn't post enough images?

You had me excited when the first post of yours I saw was the Furret, and then etc.

SpyreX,
1) UT would not have had the option to suicide. Nahdia would have been alive, and I would have died, and you would have been down to four players, and... who knows.
2) While I understand that my perspective on the game is different, there's really nothing to be gained by moping over it. You took risks, you cast votes, and it's way too late to do anything but own it and see if there's something that can be done better next time.

[Vi]

I'm not mopey exactly. Just always wanting to do better. And my return has been less than glorious sans a newbie

Times change, metas change, our lives and ability to play Mafia change.

and my cripplingly awful luck does not change

I was Professor Paragon in like 2010 or something; now I'm lucky to get out of Mafia games without getting preachy PMs from site moderators. It doesn't change that for a while both of us were adored. It's fine to want that again; it doesn't have to be through Mafia though.

In other words, do what you enjoy doing. Don't forget that whether you play Mafia or not, you have a fanclub who has been convinced into fawning adoration by your MOONBEAMS, and that's not going to change.

Also what Firebringer said. /)

[Vi]

TBF no one should be fakeclaiming in this setup, ever. The endgame thing is pretty true, though. This game's results notwithstanding it is

tough

to win as groupscum in this setup. (Although it's an open question whether that's the way it should be given general Mafia game balance.)

Also, I only just remembered to find space for a Fall Out Boy reference. Ah well.

[Vi]

TBF no one should be fakeclaiming in this setup, ever.

okay this isn't really true (see: S_S in this game) but still.

[Vi]

On the other, I feel like I shouldn't join games because if I flip town I fuck up and lose for everyone.

Or when you don't lose the game for everyone, you come across as ineffective. But so what? If this is what you enjoy doing, keep doing your best and you'll eventually break out.

Kudos to Firebringer, especially. Without him, I might have taken this game seriously.

I want to hydra with Firebringer /)
Although I don't know how well it would work in a game that didn't have the promise of sweet nuclear justice on Day 3. More games need that kind of incentive to keep playing.

i feel like i did everything i could. UT opportunistically nuked me and mastin and just...got ignored

I mean, I called UT on it when I came in, and I believe someone else pretty plainly said those were vanity nukes. But I also saw multiple times both during and before my time in this game that people were like "competing wagons D1, UT is Town forever" and he was one of the few people to call S_S for being obvscum that etc.

You played well. I apologize that I couldn't assist more.

--

So what is the lesson here? Is it "if you see someone do something strange role-wise into LyLo, drop everything and punish them for it"? That doesn't really seem half-bad, even if we were dealing with a newbie and not an established player.

[Vi]

and also Vi refused to hammer GI SK which is optimal play for scum

tbh I still don't get this, but since basically everyone else is saying it I'll accept it as me failing Mafia Theory like someone who drives into a wall, takes their foot off the pedals, and then tries the accelerator again.

Completely useless aside, but had MoI not hammered my next post D4 was going to ask LLD to talk me into GreyICE. Which... likely wouldn't have changed anything w.r.t. people thinking I was scum, since I had already delayed.

maybe we can manufacture some nukes out of chairs or something.
ill bring a ladder.

The phrase you are thinking of is "power bomb".

That game in particular... two threads at once? Hmm. I'll try to make a decision quickly for your own plans, but that's a lot of mafiers at once and I've only got so much free time, even for trolling. (What would sweeten the deal is if people from this game hopped over.)

[Vi]

My heartbreak immortalized in amazingness

oh so this is why we play Mafia

[Vi]

NGL when I was skimming through the scum isos I saw what Cephrir was doing to Cheetory and I was like "well I hope no one sees that".

Removing the Terrorist is probably a good play, I agree. It felt a lot like a distraction in addition to supplying swing.