PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!
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Guardian Mafia Scum
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- Location: Warning: Always looks scummy. Is town.
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Guardian Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4703
- Joined: March 28, 2007
- Location: Warning: Always looks scummy. Is town.
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Guardian Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4703
- Joined: March 28, 2007
- Location: Warning: Always looks scummy. Is town.
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Guardian Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4703
- Joined: March 28, 2007
- Location: Warning: Always looks scummy. Is town.
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Guardian Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4703
- Joined: March 28, 2007
- Location: Warning: Always looks scummy. Is town.
Did he change for game?Erg0 wrote:Vote: UltimaAvalon
His avatar is a pirate. Do I have to paint you a picture?
He might be ninja scum who
wanted to "blend in".
This post is alsoIammars wrote:YAR!
I be confirming captain!
highly suspect, considering
the day scene info.Do not lynch me.
[wiki]Great Nibbler Takeover of 2008[/wiki]-
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Guardian Mafia Scum
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Guardian Mafia Scum
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- Joined: March 28, 2007
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You would do well to respond to my substantive points rather than quibble over my literary style.mikeburnfire wrote:You can not just break
your sentences up. Haikus
do not work this way.
I find it highly suspicious that you have complained more than once about the random voting stage, yet are quite eager to avoid discussing the real issues I've brought up, have not brought up any real issues of your own, and have instead decided to focus on my writing.
In Ork Mafia, Gorrad, scum, copied my haikus/poetry.
I find it interesting that Fonz, UltimaAvalon, and MBF have done so here.
I don't see how Space Monkeys hurts my case -- the town went on assuming something that was wrong, and suffered for it. Discussion might help prevent such a thing from happening here, no?The Fonz wrote:each player knows whether they're town or scum. Scum know who each other are, town don't. It's basically irrelevant what the flavour is. Bringing up space monkeys hurts your case, since everyone assuming SM were town was precisely the problem, and that's exactly that sort of thing I'm objecting to here. Informed minorities and uninformed majorities act differently, regardless of what the flavour is. It's the tells arising from this we need to look out for.
I agree with this.Erg0 wrote:I think Thesp was hoping to trick those who lack basic literacy skills.
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No one has responded in any meaningful way to my points about UA's pirate avatar, or Iammars's confirming with pirate flavor. I believe the latter is a stronger point, and merits a change of vote at this juncture.
Don't dismiss this out of hand -- Iammars confirmed with pirate flavor -- he could easily be ninja scum who thought pirates were townies (pirates v. ninjas, a reasonable assumption to make). By claiming with pirate flavor, he gains points as being ready to look like a pirate -- but it now appears pirates are scum, too.
It seems that at least one reasonable explanation is that Iammars is in fact ninja scum who wanted to look a pirate.
unvote vote: Iammars
MBF, UA, Fonz are also on my short list.Do not lynch me.
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I don't understand why. A whole game was played with haikus -- you can't interpret one player?mikeburnfire wrote:
It was difficultYou would do well to respond to my substantive points rather than quibble over my literary style.
to interpret what you say
when you talk like this.
I find it easier to distill the 17 syllables rather than make sense out of long paragraphs, personally.
I find it hugely suspicious that you *continue* to disregard all substantive points. You instead attempt to not address the point I've made about you asking for us to exit the random stage while not taking one iota of effort to cause this to happen yourself, and you try to make it out as if your copying my use of haiku is the only reason I am suspicious of you. Your representation of my reasons for being suspicious of you is... lacking. At best.mikeburnfire wrote:
I find it funnyIn Ork Mafia, Gorrad, scum, copied my haikus/poetry.
I find it interesting that Fonz, UltimaAvalon, and MBF have done so here.
that I am on your short list
'cuz I spoke haikus.Do not lynch me.
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I want to point out, at this time, that I said I'd be writing in haiku, being wary of cases, and pushing for short page length days in the sign up thread -- just so that if and when these things happened, people would know it was not some sort of tell.
That's reasonable.mikeburnfire wrote:I agree. I thought maybe you were post-restricted though, so your haikus were what I focused on, not what you were saying.
No -- and I don't see how that matters. You've said you don't want to reveal the reasons for it, and haven't done much of anything proactive to try and get others to exit the random voting stage -- a cause you said was of high importance to you. Your TSQ vote *might* have some meaning behind it -- but you aren't interested in sharing, nor are you being helpful towards reaching your goal of getting out of the phase.mikeburnfire wrote:Ohhhhh. Okay. Well, here's my rebuttal:
Can you prove that my vote was not random?
This dichotomy between your proclaimed goal in the game and actions in the game is what troubles me.
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UA: I would have sworn you were in Ork Mafia. I also thought you might have read my comments in the sign up thread. I hadn't thought that someone else would burst into haiku, while not copying me. Apparently, I was in error -- you're off my short list, for now.
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Claus, UA -- could you use less acronmys? FUD? MSU?
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Hm, no. I looked over open 19, and I can't see where I used haiku. To my knowledge, Ork mafia was the only game I used them in, I think it is fun and freeing to do them in large games, and I think I'll continue to do so.Skruffs wrote:haikus:
Guardian: you were scum in open 19 and a miller in ork mafia, both games in which you used haikus: correct?
I'm not sure where you are coming from here. In Ork mafia, I engineered a day 1 mass claim that won the game for town. Even had you been right about Open 19 -- I survived a 89 page game to lylo and lost in great part because my partner had been eliminated a few days prior because of a coin flip, and also because of a performance by Thok in which he only voted for two townies the entire game.Skruffs wrote:Haikus don't seem to work for you very well.
Why are you suggesting that those games went badly for me -- are you that intent on me not using haiku?
In that game,Skruffs wrote:Secondly: I was in haiku mafia, a game run by glork, and it was very easy to win because of the extreme limitations being forced to post in 34 syllables, at once, imposed. inasmuch, I am not sure why someone would intentionally limit themselves.onlyhaiku were allowed, at all times. Clearly that isn't the case here.
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MBF's 108 really, really bugs me. Why? Timing. He didn't even acknowledge my logic against Iammars's existence when he, in 90, responded to the same post that said logic was in.
Instead, he voted only after Thesp and Sir Tornado did.
ps: Happy birthday Iammars!
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And yeah, welcome hasdgfas -- whatwouldmerit placing a 5th vote on someone at this point in the game?Do not lynch me.
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Alluding to a role-type on your first post can out you in any flavored game, especially one with a mod known for intricate and deceptive setups.Erg0 wrote:Wow, this game is proud home to some of the cruder attempts at deception that I've seen in a while.
I have enough faith in Stoofer as a mod to believe that he would not set up any player to the point that the first words out of their mouth would result in them unwittingly revealing themselves to be scum.
I'm not sure what any of that has to do with "faith in Stoofer as a mod". Could you enlighten me?
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Gorrad, did you realize that I had already wished Iammars a happy birthday?
Also, despite how you claim you react to poetry, I personally have a hunch scum would be more likely to copy a schtick than town.Partof the reason for my elevated suspicion of MBF and Fonz.
Note: I'm not suspicious of poetry in general, I am suspicious of others copying my use of it.
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First, please put the name of the person you are quoting (Jordan in this case), it makes comprehension much easier. I edited your quote to include it.Mgm wrote:
Why even call someone out on a 5th vote, when I've been called out on a 6th one?JordanA24 wrote:Guardian, at the end of your last post, you mentioned hasd and something to do with putting a 5th vote on someone. As far as I can tell, hasd hasn't put a 5th vote on someone, or mentioned anything about it, did you mean Claus?
Second -- MGM, are you saying you find me suspicious for calling someone out for a 5th vote?
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MBF has continued to show complete disregard for anything I'm saying about him, and only Kison, of anyone, has seemed to respond to it at all.
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I'd like to hear Iammars's response to the points against him.
I'd like to hear MBF respond, at all.
I'd like to hear more from Fonz, too, specifically his stance on the Iammars wagon.
I am also wary of Thok, and while I understand the need for subtlety in some instances, I'm quite baffled as to what this "3rd option" about Iammars might be.
Lastly, it seems really early to point this out -- but many people have posted once today, or not at all. We should be mindful of that before proceeding too hastily.Do not lynch me.
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You've responded to a fraction of things I've addressed to you, and I don't believe you've said anything that I haven't already re-responded to. I apologize If I was hyperbolic in saying you hadn't responded to anything. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say you haven't responded to anything about yourself with any degree of depth OR to my satisfaction.mikeburnfire wrote:I already did respond. Who's disregarding whom now?
I agree with you there, but I don't see how it follows that Iammars was somehow "set up" by Stoofer.Erg0 wrote:
I simply meant that I don't think that Stoofer would deliberately set someone up to believe it was safe to say something flavour-based that it was not, in fact, safe to say.Guardian wrote:
Alluding to a role-type on your first post can out you in any flavored game, especially one with a mod known for intricate and deceptive setups.Erg0 wrote:Wow, this game is proud home to some of the cruder attempts at deception that I've seen in a while.
I have enough faith in Stoofer as a mod to believe that he would not set up any player to the point that the first words out of their mouth would result in them unwittingly revealing themselves to be scum.
I'm not sure what any of that has to do with "faith in Stoofer as a mod". Could you enlighten me?
If Iammars's PM was "You are ninja scum with _________" and nothing else, I could definitely see Iammars thinking "OK, I'm ninja scum... Pirates v. Ninjas... Pirates must be town!"
Considering the above example, do you see why I think Iammars might have just made an error in judgement, and not been abused by the mod in some way?Erg0 wrote:The Mars thing seems to be largely based on the idea that his role PM somehow led him to think that it would be a good idea to pretend to be a pirate, when this has clearly turned out not to be the case.
I'm not sure I agree here.Erg0 wrote:I think it's far more likely that he was just being whimsical, not attempting some gambit that backfired on him.Do not lynch me.
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Not very, and I find that to be something of a misclassification.Thok wrote:Are you suspicious of Thesp, who has basically taken the same position with respect to this option as I have?
You brought (at least explicitly) this 3rd point up first, and to my understanding are using it to support your suspicion of the Iammars wagon.
Thesp, on the other hand, has acknowledge he may have thought of what you are thinking of, but is not using it as a rationale to reject an assumption that based on the M.O. in the day scene makes sense. He also has said you should not live to near endgame because of this mysteriousness that I do not yet understand, so it would seem to me that painting you two with the same brush isn't very reasonable.
Consider this hypothetical thought process:Ergo wrote:I agree that he hasn't been abused by the mod - that was my point in the first place. Once you eliminate that possibility, the alternative theory would be that he made what seems to me like an unreasonably large leap of logic and tried to clear himself with a wild guess at flavour during the confirmation stage. I don't subscribe to this theory.
I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas.
-->In this game, pirates oppose ninjas.
I am ninja scum
There is a town, and I as scum oppose them.
-->Pirates are town.
You consider that to be an unreasonably large leap of logic?Do not lynch me.
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I thought you cited "mysterious 3rd point" as one of your reasons for being wary of the Iammars wagon. No?Thok wrote:
I am not using that as a way to support suspicion of the Iammars wagon. Given that you claim to have no idea what it is, I can't see how you can reasonably claim I'm using that as a way to attack people.Guardian wrote:
Not very, and I find that to be something of a misclassification.Thok wrote:Are you suspicious of Thesp, who has basically taken the same position with respect to this option as I have?
You brought (at least explicitly) this 3rd point up first, and to my understanding are using it to support your suspicion of the Iammars wagon.
That is an extremely easy way I can reasonably claim that you are using it as a way to attackpeopleideas.
Using a mysterious, unclarified, secret point to support your stance was precisely the reason I found you suspicious. You talk about something you are keeping purposefully vague, you talk about a 3rd unmentioned possibility, you talk about assumptions that you are unwilling to make -- assumptions that you are even unwilling to disclose what they are -- and use that as a basis for your stance.
Yeah, I find that suspicious.
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I'd like to hear a response to this.Thesp wrote:
I don't see how "Stoofer's games have a twist" invalidates the hypothetical thought process. At all.Erg0 wrote:
In the context of this game, yes it is. It's common knowledge that Stoofer's games always have a twist, Mars would have to be a raging moron to make such a baseless assumption.Guardian wrote:
Consider this hypothetical thought process:Ergo wrote:I agree that he hasn't been abused by the mod - that was my point in the first place. Once you eliminate that possibility, the alternative theory would be that he made what seems to me like an unreasonably large leap of logic and tried to clear himself with a wild guess at flavour during the confirmation stage. I don't subscribe to this theory.
I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas.
-->In this game, pirates oppose ninjas.
I am ninja scum
There is a town, and I as scum oppose them.
-->Pirates are town.
You consider that to be an unreasonably large leap of logic?
Not sure if it sounds weasel-y to me, but I don't think there is a better place for my vote at the moment.Thesp wrote:
This feels very weasel-y. Happy with my vote.Iammars wrote:Thirdly, since Thesp asked nicely, I will claim pirate/not pirate. I'm not a pirate. However, I'm not too familiar with my character, so I'm not 100% sure.
I'd like to hear a response to this.Thesp wrote:
What other explanation would you have expected? "Aw, shucks, you got me"?Gorrad wrote:His piratey confirmation. It was a weak tell, but still the biggest I'd seen in the first few pages. I'm satified with his explanation, though, so I'm back to no leads so far.
I did this read, and... I'm not sure I see what Thesp is seeing. I'd like others to consider this and draw their own conclusions, and have discussion about it.Thesp wrote:
Please re-read Gorrad in the context of IammarsScum, then in the context of IammarsTown, and I suspect you'll get quite a different read.Claus wrote:You say that Iammar's alignment tells us about Gorrad. Why? That flew completely over my head.
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Well, MGM, I asked because I wanted to see how vested an interest you had in the game/how close you were paying attention. I didn't accuse anyone of spuriously making too quick a vote -- I in fact was asking hasdgfas why heMgm wrote:
I haven't decided yet. First I'd like to hear you answer my question.Guardian wrote:Second -- MGM, are you saying you find me suspicious for calling someone out for a 5th vote?didn'tmake a 5th vote -- I think large wagons are generally productive at this point in the game, and was questioning his hesitancy.
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Day 1s bore me as well, and more importantly I think that long day ones are extremely hurtful to the town -- I would love it if this one ended in about 7 more pages, and definitely no more than 20 total. Still, I *try* to read everything, and at least skim back at what I might have missed... Your "obviously not good play" and joking post that follows this one does nothing to assuage my suspicion of you.MBF wrote:I'm reading posts at random, in a way. I just see what was said lately and if I think I need to, I'll go back check a few posts I missed. Obviously this is not good play, but Day 1s bore me to tears.
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I want to emphasize this: I think we should really try and end this day before the twenty page mark. If you are all mafia-saints that have hours to devote to combing through 40 page day ones, then I commend you. But no matter how much time it takes us to get there, as long as we have heard in a meaningful way from every player and have a reasonable lynch candidate, I want the day over before 20 pages. I've been in games where people oppose this, and say long days are better since there is more information, and that I am being weak.
Guess what -- almost everyone is weak. Very few people are going to go back and read 30,40,50 pages of day one nonsense. Maybe this game has an disproportionate amount of such people -- but I know at least that I am not one of them. I hope I have support in this.Do not lynch me.
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.Claus wrote:
I agree with you about large day ones. I think a D1 would benefit most from 4 or 5 quick large bandwagons in succession, followed by a lynch.Guardian wrote: Guess what -- almost everyone is weak. Very few people are going to go back and read 30,40,50 pages of day one nonsense. Maybe this game has an disproportionate amount of such people -- but I know at least that I am not one of them. I hope I have support in this.
MBF. I hope I've made the reasoning clear in my posts. At the moment, however, I think my (and the other) votes on Iammars are, at the least, generating a goodly amount of discussion, and at best are on scum who made a mistake.Claus wrote:Although I still think your current bandwagon sucks. If you had to vote someone else, who would you vote and why?
Possibly. I find it odd that Thesp is a large supporter of both large wagons, and so vigorously. I also don't see the Gorrad-Iammars link -- I quoted his recent post in part because I was hoping it might encourage him and others to elaborate further on this -- reading this Gorrad-Iammars link made me wonder if Thesp isClaus wrote:Wanna start a Thesp bandwagon?tryingto create something out of nothing. I was hoping he'd respond before someone else started bringing up suspicion of Thesp too loudly; I'm sure that Thesp-scum would/will be on his guard, now.
In any event, Thesp, could you provide a more detailed analysis of this Iammars-Gorrad connection?
Cicero, and all others who are posting minimally.Claus wrote:I also want to see Cicero contribute more. Hey, cicero! Come back or you're not getting a xmas present this year.
Claus, could you outline briefly and in one post the reason for your suspicion of Gorrad?Do not lynch me.
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I might, maybe, see what you are getting at. If so, I understand what you might mean by needing to keep it secret...Thok wrote:
Gee, maybe I don't want to mention some of the possibilities because I think it helps scum to mention them. If I had mentioned my third possibility and Iammars was scum, he might have tried to use that as a way to help himself.Guardian wrote:I thought you cited "mysterious 3rd point" as one of your reasons for being wary of the Iammars wagon. No?
That is an extremely easy way I can reasonably claim that you are using it as a way to attackpeopleideas.
Using a mysterious, unclarified, secret point to support your stance was precisely the reason I found you suspicious. You talk about something you are keeping purposefully vague, you talk about a 3rd unmentioned possibility, you talk about assumptions that you are unwilling to make -- assumptions that you are even unwilling to disclose what they are -- and use that as a basis for your stance.
Yeah, I find that suspicious.
For the record, Iammars can't use that possibility now. Moreover, the fact that certain people can't even seem to phantom what that possibility is tells me something about their roles.
I still don't like your mystic-like air of suspicion, or the level of secrecy that envelops your posts. I almost want to reveal what I think you might be thinking, to get this out in the open.
Wait, what? Tone? I am being manipulative? How so?Thok wrote:For the record, I prefer a TSQ or Guardian wagon to a Thesp wagon. Mostly this is a matter of tone, as... I feel Guardian is being manipulative/trying to pick too much at fine details... Guardian's willingness to hint at maybe supporting a Thespwagon is also scummy.
Saying I would possibly support a Thesp wagon when 1) he is supporting both of the two top wagons and 2) he is claiming to see a clear connection that I don't see at and 3) when I was directly asked if I might support a Thesp wagon -- is scummy? Thok??Do not lynch me.
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I just read the last page. And then Thesp in isolation. And then Gorrad in isolation. And then Erg0's recent posts, in isolation. And then Thok and Thesp arguing.
I'm too tired to articulate my thoughts beyond saying:
I think Thesp and Thok may be scum together. Yes, I said it. Thesp. And Thok.
I think Iammars alignment is fairly unknown, Gorrad may be scum but not with Thesp. Erg0 is unlikely to be scum with Iammars.
Reasons later.
unvote, vote: Thesp
I feel much better about Thesp [being scum].Do not lynch me.
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This made like 1000 alarm bells ring in my head. My first game on this site had Thesp scum. Thesp scum refused to respond to stuff, said he'd do it later, and when he encountered something inconvenient would just be like "oh I'm not gonna explain this" -- "why is not explaining stuff bad"? Add to the fact that I really see NO Iammars-Gorrad connection, and it seems Thesp might just be stalling or trying to cover. I really think we deserve to hear what connection he is talking about.Thesp wrote:
Perhaps later.Guardian wrote:In any event, Thesp, could you provide a more detailed analysis of this Iammars-Gorrad connection?
Then I looked at this tidbit, that seemed very disingenuous to me:
Considering Gorrad's original thoughts on the wagon:Thesp wrote:
I don't believe this for a moment. I hope a vig has good sense and kills you dead tonight.Gorrad wrote:I wasn't very suspicious, no. I understood were people were coming from, but the basis of the wagon was so weak that I figured it had to be a trap I would be interrupting again by pointing out. I never intended to vote for him.
Also, Erg0 started making a lot of sense about Iammars, and Thesp's:Gorrad wrote:I see where people are coming from on the Iammars wagon, but I think it's kind of weak reasoning.FoS: Iammars. Iammars, thoughts?
Seems off -- if I was in the position I believe Mars to be in, I don't think I'd confirm with pirate flavor, it would be making far too great an assumption, knowing Stoofer. I could seeThesp wrote:
I don't know, nor can I know.Erg0 wrote:I'll try a hypothetical: if you were in the position that you believe Mars to be in, would you have done the same thing that you believe he did? Why or why not?someonemaking the mistake, but basing our lynch off of that with no other info about Iammars.. seems wrong, now. And I find it odd Thesp couldn't put himself in Iammars shoes with any degree of accuracy.
Considering his questionable stances -- and the fact that he is pushing and piggybacking on the two largest wagons in the game -- makes him seem like opportunistic scum.
The one thing I must note about Iammars is that I find it surprising he is taking so long to find his role on wikipedia, when all roles are supposed to be easily findable on wikipedia.
This harks back to the mysteriousness I don't like -- and to me, it started looking like it might be distancing. Possibly I was too rash in saying you might be scum together, but for some reason it started to feel that way.Thesp wrote:
Yes, which I've alluded to - I'm awaiting Iammars's pirate/non-pirate claim first. It's also partially why I don't think you should be allowed anywhere near the endgame. (I admit it's early to commit to this line of thought.)Thok wrote:
You realize, of course, that I've hinted that I'm uncomfortable with making one of the assumptions you've suggested.Thesp wrote:This is a decent point, which was not at all what JordanA24 is saying. Note that it doesn't require a bazillion assumptions about the setup, just that there is a group of scum who are ninjas, and who are not comprised of pirates (and are otherwise unaware of what other roles might be out there before N1), which currently seem very, very reasonable to make.
Thok, what bothered me about you, aside from what I've already mentioned, is that you didn't act as I would think town Thok would, from 4 months of playing with town Thok. You learned from nightless and extensively metagaming me in other games that I am at fault in that I can be somewhat OMGUS-y, in all situations -- and I would expect town Thok to press on anyways when I basically questioned the validity of all your accusations against me. Instead you replied to TSQ without a word about me.
That's basically my reasoning -- reading Thesp, then reading Gorrad, and seeing that Thesp's stance, particularly that portion I quoted, didn't make much sense, reading Thesp's dealing with Iammars, and then some emerging doubt about whether Thesp might be scum with you, Thok.
Erg0's comments also started making sense to me about how I would never do what I accused Iammars of doing, and then I also read the infuriating:
Which, while does not at all make me discount MBF, can be very hard for scum to say, as it basically opens you up to more attack. It was infuriating because I felt pretty good about MBF as a second choice to Iammars, but that post to me is either very good scum or town. Being the direct opposite of OMGUS is very hard to do in any situation, particularly as scum who has even more than natural incentive to be defensive.mikeburnfire wrote:I do not hold Guardian's suspicions on me against him. I agree with almost everything he says.
I see that some people think the Iammars wagon is weakly justified, while others see it as a good day one lynch. I tend to agree with the latter, though I would like to have a few more suspects before the Day ends. To do this, I will have to sift backwards and determine if I think other wagons (like the one on Gorrad) have any foundation.Do not lynch me.
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Everything else aside -- I agree with this.Skruffs wrote:Thesp is giving the taste you get in your mouth when you bite into a piece of bread and then realize it's fuzzy.
Sometimes I really question why I bother to post such long and effort consuming posts, it always comes back to bite me in the ass , because given enough content you can find *something* you don't like about someone's thoughts, and mine are not always particularly clear. Yet, Skruffs, for example, I predict won't be questioned at all about this statement. :\. I think after this post I'm going back to haiku for a bit.
Why?Skruffs wrote:Also: Fonz's post at the top of page 7 smells to me like someone tryign to communicate with their scum buddies.
Skruffs, please change your avatar, it really bugs me and makes it hard to take you seriously at all.Do not lynch me.
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What're you talking about,Skruffs wrote:Good. Maybe it disconcerts the rest. Of the scum,, an game play.
Skruffs? You think I'm scum? And you
wantto distract game?
Also Skruffs, I notice that
you didn't respond to my "Why?"
Fonz not important?
If by shit, you meanSkruffs wrote:fos : guardian and thesp
Consider this the 'beginning' of the shit you are going to get.
Guardian, you explained the reason behind the case on iammars by encouraging people to make the assumption that ninja scum would think the opposing team was town.
However:
Both of these roles are protown.Mr Stoofer wrote:Players(dead):- MrBuddyLee - Luke Skywalker (Vig) - throat slit and beaten to death Night 1
- DrippingGoofball - Jack Aubrey (Pirate Finder) - forced to walk the plank Night 1
NOTE: In the above list, pro-town roles appear in black text; anti-town roles appear in coloured text.
Guardian: Pirate finder: suggests they find pirates. Since it's a protown role, that suggests pirates are scum.
bad argument, this is it.
None dead when Mars confirmed......
Not that I've seen. Show?Thesp wrote:
Have I ever done this as town, or is the exclusive domain of ThespScum?Guardian wrote:This made like 1000 alarm bells ring in my head. My first game on this site had Thesp scum. Thesp scum refused to respond to stuff, said he'd do it later, and when he encountered something inconvenient would just be like "oh I'm not gonna explain this" -- "why is not explaining stuff bad"?
Any response to anything else?
Or are the rest true?
Why do you think this?Thesp wrote:I am beginning to get the suspicion that most of the scum are likely to be the people who haven't been part of the posting diarrhea, and are lurking.
Do you want to make friends now?
Explain your thinking.
This bit makes good sense.Thesp wrote:
THIS IS NOT ABOUT OUTGUESSING THE MOD. No one is suggesting you gave this much thought - especially since it was just a confirmation post.Iammars wrote:Seriously man, you're assuming that I assumed something about the setup in a Stoofer game? I joined this game just to be surprised by what Stoofer comes up with. Besides, I learned to stop outguessing the mod with no information when I became a mod myself.That's precisely why the thought process could be there - it's just a quick check-in with unusual flavor to it.It also seems less likely that someone would have a non-pirate role and confirm with pirate flavor if they weren't trying to throw someone off in some way.
I can really see it both ways.
Thesp can too, I guess :
Thesp: What did he say?Thesp wrote:I also have a sneaking suspicion that he's likely town as well, based on something he said.Unvote: Iammars.Still not happy with Gorrad, though admittedly my suspicions of him being protective-scum for Iammars are subsided.
Your new points are logical.
What exculpates Mars?
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I see that no one
sees Thesp<-->Thok besides me.
I shall look again!Do not lynch me.
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Cicero, flameaxe...
Where the hell have you two been?
And why choose to interject on this issue, cicero? Have you read the thread, fully?
Flameaxe -- nothing important came up until you were attacked? And you find cicero's mention of youcompletelyout of place, given he mentioned tsq?Do not lynch me.
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[quote="Thestatusquo"]Also,Fos: GuardianYou have enough experience with Flameaxe to know that this kind of behavior is par for the course for him. I don't like your attempt to ignore his meta.[/quote]I have enough experience with Flameaxe? I can recall one game, in which he was of no suspicion because he replaced foryouurzasedatives, a vigilante, in an open setup. I probably have played with him before then -- but unless you name games to jog my memory, I'm literally drawing a blank .
This is par for the course for him? And that's acceptable? And I shouldknowthis?
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5. Fritzler
11. KaleiÐoscøpe
15. Rosso Carne
16. Samruc
17. Sir Tornado
19. The Fonz
fwiw: It would be great if the above players, in addition to cicero and Flameaxe, really started playing the game. Too early for prods/replacements, but just.Do not lynch me.
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Instead of quoting cicero, would you respond to my question -- nothing of importance to comment on came up, until you were attacked?Flameaxe wrote:Flameaxe -- nothing important came up until you were attacked?Incidentally, I'm not accusing you whatsoever flameaxe.
Unless -- This is your response?Flameaxe wrote:Exactly.
Assuming it was fair for cicero to mention TSQ & DGB, was it fair for cicero to mention you & DGB?Flameaxe wrote:And would you mind rephrasing that second question? I'm afraid I'm not following.
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Cicero, so, you've been reading the game -- and even taking notes -- but didn't want to comment, and instead decided it would be better to wait until the dust settled?
Hit Preview: Prima facia, cicero's n1 death speculation makes a little sense. But n1 death speculation is always iffy :\.
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TSQ:
So, my experience with Flameaxe is:
1 game with him where he was confirmed town -- thus a game in which I largely lost interest in scrutinizing Flameaxe.
1 game with him where I was mod and he was lynched day 2 -- a game I largely lost interest in after cult died night 1 .
Some games on scumchat, over 3 -- probably around 6 -- months ago. Most of which I don't remember. And I've been warned by many people not to metagame people's real play via their scumchat play.
Because of the above, I am suspect for not realizing that, for Flameaxe, posting next to nothing is par for the course, and moreover that the de facto status quo is that that level of posting is acceptable?
Is that what you are saying?Do not lynch me.
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Yeah -- but you were also saying a few posts back that I, Guardian, was suspicious for not knowing -- and accepting -- this level of play as a norm for Flameaxe.Thestatusquo wrote:I am saying that being generally a terrible player who doesn't care at all how he looks is par for the course for BBM. (no offense, man.)
Do you stand by that assessment?Do not lynch me.
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Who mightcicero wrote:Not at all. Im not interested, unlike some people in here, in running up big wagons based on shitfumes.thosepeople be? Name names, please.
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Flameaxe wrote:
Exactly.Guardian wrote:Flameaxe -- nothing important came up until you were attacked?Guardian wrote:Would you respond to my question -- nothing of importance to comment on came up, until you were attacked?
Unless -- This is your response?Flameaxe wrote:Exactly.
(the above quotes were truncated for emphasis and clarity, by me)Flameaxe wrote:Yes it was my response.
Flameaxe, that reeks of scum self-preservation. Nothing in this game was important to you at all until you came under attack? Not a single wagon, or comment, or attack by one player on another -- nothing else at all was important enough to comment on until you were attacked on a minor point by cicero?Do not lynch me.
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Yeah, I take huge issue with this.cicero wrote:
"OMG. He talked like a pirate."Guardian wrote:
Who mightcicero wrote:Not at all. Im not interested, unlike some people in here, in running up big wagons based on shitfumes.thosepeople be? Name names, please.
I wanted attention, sure. A wagon sure. But based on shitfumes? At the point I brought it up? What better was there? Even now, his confirming is not forgotten -- I definitely don't think that it was irrelevant.
And you accuse me, like it is some treasonous act to bring up something you think is suspicious. I'd also like to bring up that I *voted* Iammars. Others *wagoned* him. You find me more suspicious than those who followed?
Your play, then, can be easily seen as scum waiting to see where opinions fall and then tipping the scales whichever way youplease.cicero wrote:
Yes. This is an accurate restatement of what I explicitly said.Guardian wrote:Cicero, so, you've been reading the game -- and even taking notes -- but didn't want to comment, and instead decided it would be better to wait until the dust settled?
Excuse me if I don't 100% believe you, especially since you didn't bring this up until now.cicero wrote:I might add that on at least one occasion I foolishly tried to interject with a moderately lengthy response, forgot to cut it to clipboard, and had it destroyed by a delicious CPU quota error.
A question you never followed up on -- despite reading the thread and taking notes for 7 pages?cicero wrote:Oh, I also asked a question to someone that completely ignored and washed away as I recall.
Are you saying that your play thus far in the game, considering that you were reading the game -- is totally defensible as pro-town? It was good for you to read and take notes and keep to yourself?
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Cicero, Flameaxe, if my diction was off, like you said, that's not very relevant, it was certainly a perceived attack.
Flameaxe, are you saying that
Is why you weren't active?Flameaxe wrote:A mix of bullshit and issues on a (somewhat) personal level.Do not lynch me.
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Hmph. Well, I'll sleep on flameaxe. TSQ, you need to respond to my question -- and if either you or flameaxe wants to provide (preferrably short/obvious) examples of flameaxe playing like he is now and being town, that would be great.
cicero -- eh, I'm tired, I'll sleep on you also at this point.
preview: "ninja" 'd?
One lase thing I want to mention before bed.
I sense a Thesp OR Guardian false-choice being spread around. Each player has 25 others they can be suspicious of -- groupthink is bad!
Later.Do not lynch me.
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Skruffs, you think I'm useless at figuring out who scum are?
I find that odd, considering Ork mafia and AM mafia, the only forum games I recall having you and me involved with me as town. (:
ps: Skruffs, because of your avatar, I've disabled all avatars, to my sorrow. I just couldn't stand it anymore.
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tsq, I'd like you to respond to:Guardian in 291 wrote:
Yeah -- but you were also saying a few posts back that I, Guardian, was suspicious for not knowing -- and accepting -- this level of play as a norm for Flameaxe.Thestatusquo wrote:I am saying that being generally a terrible player who doesn't care at all how he looks is par for the course for BBM. (no offense, man.)
Do you stand by that assessment?Do not lynch me.
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Skruffs:
I'd say like 1/4 of the player list are notoriously good players.
I've replaced out of 2 games in anything nearing recent history, both because they ceased to be fun/playable (other townies were suspicious of me for from my pov pretty dumb reasons AND didn't listen to me in cases where I turned to be right about scum).
What does my replacing out of games have to do with anything?Do not lynch me.
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Apparently what was actually needed to convince me was you elaborating and repeating your argument in emphatic terms.Erg0 wrote:Finally had time for that reread, but it's actually something that happenedaftermy last post that grabbed me.
Vote: Guardian
Apparently what was actually needed to convince him was a bunch of other people agreeing with me.Verysudden turn on the Iammars issue.Verysuspicious play by Thesp, too....
Who are these "bunch of other people agreeing with you" before I decided to unvote Iammars and vote Thesp -- people who started agreeing with you between the time I last responded to you, and when I changed my mind?Do not lynch me.
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I'd like you to spend the time and energy -- because I've looked through my wiki page, and in a cursory viewing I couldn't find any more than what I described.Thestatusquo wrote:Guardian, I believe you to be downplaying exactly how much you've played with flameaxe, but I do not have the time nor the energy to look through all your games to prove that.
Your knee-jerk FOS seemed like one scum might make -- spread the suspicion around as much as possible, without good reasons for it.Do not lynch me.
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I feel very comfortable with a Thesp wagon, but as we draw closer I wonder about the wisdom of a Thesp lynch.
I am flattered that two of three major wagons in this game were in some sense led by me; usually people can't understand what I mean/think it is scummy/bullshit, so it is rather refreshing that at least there are some out there who are seeing what I am seeing.
But as to the Thesp wagon:
-Solely based on the chance that if Thesp is town, he's pretty good at it, keeping him around on the chance he is townmightbe wise.
Really, I'd just *very much* like to hear Thesp respond to my points. Maybe he has convincing reasons/explanations. With *no* reasoning/explanations, Thesp looks very scummy to me.
Also, I'd very much like TSQ to respond, his very weak fos of me is grating :\.
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Side note:
I have only one vote on me currently, but Mgm, Thok, erg0, tsq among others, have all expressed somewhat strong to very strong suspicion of me, possibly as #2 choice or whatever, and from past experience I don't want to let such suspicion "fester", as wagons enivetably spring up later from such suspicion if the reasoning behind it is not rooted out.
If there is anything you can bring up to justify your feelings such that I can try to respond/explain, please do so. Purpose of this is twofold: first, I don't want a wagon to suddenly appear on me in a flash for bad reasons, and secondly I want you guys to commit to the reasoning behind your suspicion, so that if a wagon does come up you are at least tied down to the reasons you are suspicious of me, and can't be "oh, I was always suspicious of him for X" when X was first thought of by someone else.Do not lynch me.
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My post 239 might be a good start for understanding the Thesp wagon.Twomz wrote:I want to be productive and vote for one of the leading bandwagons, but I don't really see where either of them is coming from.
<- dislikes being unproductive.
Could someone from each wagon organize the points against Gorrad and Thesp so that they can respond to them and others can choose easier? I really just don't remember/understand why they are being run up.
I don't recall a detailed explanation about Gorrad by anyone currently voting him.Do not lynch me.
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This isn't anything near an accurate and complete summary at this stage in the game. You read the whole thread?The Fonz wrote:@Guardian: Your scumlist appears to be 1. a guy who confirmed by saying 'YARR!' and 2. People who replied to you using haikus. Neither of these are remotely good reasons.
This directed at me? I specifically said people currently voting Gorrad. You are not.Claus wrote:Well, I did make a case against Gorrad back when I was voting him. It was actually one quick bulleted post summing up my complaints. Interesting that you missed that.
Your reasons are noted, I asked you for them and you provided them.Do not lynch me.
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That's what I was referring to:cicero wrote:Claus sums up a Gorrad case well in 202.
Guardian wrote:
This directed at me? I specifically said people currently voting Gorrad. You are not.Claus wrote:Well, I did make a case against Gorrad back when I was voting him. It was actually one quick bulleted post summing up my complaints. Interesting that you missed that.
Your reasons are noted, I asked you for them and you provided them.
Ok, my reasons for finding people suspicious *at that time in the game* were not nearly to the standard they are now.Fonz wrote:No, like the rest it was in response to a specific post, this one:Do not lynch me.
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I agree with this -- UA's vote of cicero seemed like OMGUS without any real justification. UA isn't making much sense; I find it hard to take him seriously. Flameaxe is definitely not being helpful -- Icicero wrote:I see Ultima being OMGUS and Flameaxe being obstructionist and swooping to someone's rescue again.stillwant TSQ to explain why we should accept this, however.
However, cicero:
-In Ork mafia, mass claim day 1 won the game -- so saying it is never a good idea day 1 is a stretch. However, I doubt it is the right play day 1 here.
-Every game, UA starts out with a self-vote. So finding him suspicious for that is not justifyable.Do not lynch me.
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If you showed me multiple you-town instances of you-this, then I would consider this aspect of my argument to be poor.Thesp wrote:
I can dig through old games later, I don't feel like it right now. Generally, I feel at the very least that there are valid reasons for town to hide things (as I'm sure you do as well), and sometimes there are times when it's better not to explain things (or at the least that such explanations are unhelpful). If I showed you town instances of this, would you think this argument to be poor, then?Guardian wrote:]
Not that I've seen. Show?Thesp wrote:
Have I ever done this as town, or is the exclusive domain of ThespScum?Guardian wrote:This made like 1000 alarm bells ring in my head. My first game on this site had Thesp scum. Thesp scum refused to respond to stuff, said he'd do it later, and when he encountered something inconvenient would just be like "oh I'm not gonna explain this" -- "why is not explaining stuff bad"?
Any response to anything else?
Or are the rest true?
I meant I wanted you to respond to the rest of my post viewtopic.php?p=907405#907405Thesp wrote:Also, what do you mean by "Any response to anything else? Or are the rest true?"
There are a number of things in that post that you have still not addressed, that I find very suspicious about your play.
Why did you get that suspicion? It seemed like you got it when active players started to vote for you.Thesp wrote:
I got the sneaking suspicion that the most vocal/central players were town, and that the scum didn't feel like getting in the limelight (and didn't need to).Guardian wrote:
Why do you think this?Thesp wrote: I am beginning to get the suspicion that most of the scum are likely to be the people who haven't been part of the posting diarrhea, and are lurking.
Why?Thesp wrote:
I like this post.Erg0 wrote:Finally had time for that reread, but it's actually something that happened after my last post that grabbed me.
Vote: Guardian
Apparently what was actually needed to convince him was a bunch of other people agreeing with me. Very sudden turn on the Iammars issue.
I'm not sure how much I want your pressured. I think you are very, very good scum hunter, and if you are town we want you around. My sureness level to lynch you would need to be higher than, say, sureness level to lynch Flameaxe.Thesp wrote:
Are you saying you want me pressured, but notGuardian wrote:I feel very comfortable with a Thesp wagon, but as we draw closer I wonder about the wisdom of a Thesp lynch.reallypressured?
However, right now you are the best bet to be scum, thought tsq is gaining ground, as he continues to not respond to me. That may be explained by his being out of town, we'll see.
Why are you talking about TSQ's tone here? Thok is asking about his content.Thesp wrote:
I've not been comfortable with the hostility he's presented in this game, but while I think it's unhelpful, I don't think it helps indicate his alignment.Thok wrote:Also, does anybody actually feel TSQ's reaction to my vote on him was a protown reaction? He fairly clearly tried to frame my vote in convoluted ways in an attempt to discredit it.
Why dislike MGM? And what do you mean by like/dislike? You dislike MGM but like Gorrad -- this means you find Gorrad suspicious but not MGM?Thesp wrote:I'm seriously disliking Mgm. I still seriously like Gorrad.Do not lynch me.
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OK then, consider my suspicion of you to a great extent reduced. Faulty memory isn't scummy; continuing to try and justify your assertion beyond a point of reasonable certainty would have been, and in my view you were approaching that point.Thestatusquo wrote:Yes. Consider the FOS completely retracted.
Also, I agree with what you were saying about being on a wagon for pretty good, but not necessarily excellent, reasons near the start of day one. Suspicion has to start somewhere, and I don't think that in the first few days of gameplay the wagon on Iammars was at all unreasonable.
Next, I'm going to re-read MBF, and also look and see if any of the non-frequent posters is lurking (as opposed to being inactive). I also eagerly await Thesp's response to the post I linked him back to.
I also recall asking him to explicitly describe the Iammars-Gorrad connection -- again, he was pushing this quite hard earlier, and I think we deserve to hear WHY!
I agree. I reiterate -- I definitely want us to find a good lynch sooner rather than later, and I think we should actively seek such a lynch.Twomz wrote:Way too many posts for Day 1. I don't know if I can do college and this game... *bangs head on table. Maybe after I get my homework done tomorrow I'll be able to reread and comprehend what is going on.
I'll boldly say: 35+ page day ones HURT the town more than a townie lynch. Very few people are going to read that much, and I think a game that everyone can go back and re-read is MUCH, MUCH more important in the long run than most give it credit for.
Fritzler
Rosso Carne
Sir Tornado
The Fonz
Still need to contribute, though :\.Do not lynch me.
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Erg0, two points:
First, you've indicated coorelation, and sure you can assume causation, but that isn't the case -- repeating your arguments emphatically made me reconsider staying on the wagon.
Second, how strongly do you think I believed in the wagon in the first place? When people asked me about this, I said "I think my vote is in a good place for now." I Never said OMG Mars=Scumz lynch lynch/dayvig! If you read my posts carefully I was never that fervent about lynching Iammars, but his was among the first substantial wagons, and I thought the evidence I uncovered was the best we had to go on at the time.
From my perspective, your voting me for this is in essence persecuting me for being proactive and trying to get out of the random/noise stage.Do not lynch me.
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Well, I differ with you greatly, and I'm not going to be quiet about it. Especially your not being able to do as Erg0 suggested and put yourself in Iammars shoes -- I find it hard to believe you have such limited imaginative powers.Thesp wrote:
I disagree with your assessment, and I don't see what's worth "respond[ing] to". Defenses are overrated anyway.Guardian wrote:I meant I wanted you to respond to the rest of my post http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 405#907405
That hypothetical alone convinced me it was time to leave the wagon -- your refusing to get anything out of it made me quite suspicious.
Additionally, I find your "disbelief of Gorrad" to be hard to reconcile with the post of this I quoted.Guardian, originally bringing this up, wrote:Also, Erg0 started making a lot of sense about Iammars, and Thesp's:
Seems off -- if I was in the position I believe Mars to be in, I don't think I'd confirm with pirate flavor, it would be making far too great an assumption, knowing Stoofer. I could seeThesp wrote:
I don't know, nor can I know.Erg0 wrote:I'll try a hypothetical: if you were in the position that you believe Mars to be in, would you have done the same thing that you believe he did? Why or why not?someonemaking the mistake, but basing our lynch off of that with no other info about Iammars.. seems wrong, now. And I find it odd Thesp couldn't put himself in Iammars shoes with any degree of accuracy.
Above all,Guardian, originally bringing this up, wrote:Then I looked at this tidbit, that seemed very disingenuous to me:
Considering Gorrad's original thoughts on the wagon:Thesp wrote:
I don't believe this for a moment. I hope a vig has good sense and kills you dead tonight.Gorrad wrote:I wasn't very suspicious, no. I understood were people were coming from, but the basis of the wagon was so weak that I figured it had to be a trap I would be interrupting again by pointing out. I never intended to vote for him.Gorrad wrote:I see where people are coming from on the Iammars wagon, but I think it's kind of weak reasoning.FoS: Iammars. Iammars, thoughts?we deserve an explanation from Thesp about why he sees an Iammars-Gorrad link.He was strongly in favor of it earlier, to my knowledge still is, and has yet to proffer any evidence of such a connection or retract his statement.
What do you mean by sensitive? The word is ambiguous in its connotation.Thesp wrote:
I do agree as to the coincidence of that timing - for me it coincided with the time when you and I were particularly vocal, and it seemed like there was a lot of sound and fury about people whom I was beginning to think were more likely to be pro-town. It feels like to me there are a lot of players in this game whoGuardian wrote:Why did you get that suspicion? It seemed like you got it when active players started to vote for you.stillhave not made significant contributions (which I think indicates at least a slightly stronger indication for scum), and I am sensitive to your earlier suggestion that D1 not exceed 20 pages.
I haven't seen a centralized case on Gorrad that convinces me of anything about his alignment, and think much of the wagon on him is groupthink. I also believe that your stance on the bit I just quoted is confused at best, and that people, in relying on that, are using a shaky bedrock for a wagon.Thesp wrote:Guardian, what do you think about Gorrad? What do you think about Mgm?
MGM's play has seemed very superficial and he has been going for "available"/easy targets. I'm equally unimpressed with the depth of his thinking. I'm not sure to what extent, if any, this has to say about his alignment, however.Do not lynch me.
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Guardian Mafia Scum
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I assume that MBL and Fritz are town, as I find that far most likely. Welcome back MBL .
I personally can definitely see resurrecting a vigilante over a role-type-cop, with the appearance of what appears to be 3 scum factions. Especially considering it is MBL over DGB >_>.
I disagree strongly with a Gorrad lynch/dayvig. As I said/implied, I don't see any convincing case on Gorrad -- I don't find him more suspicious than an average townie.Do not lynch me.
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Guardian Mafia Scum
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What if there are scum pirates and town pirates? What if there areThesp wrote:
HOW??? Really, how?Guardian wrote:I personally can definitely see resurrecting a vigilante over a role-type-cop, with the appearance of what appears to be 3 scum factions.A weaker-than-standard information role is still far superior to have around than a vig,ceteris parabis.moretown pirates than scum pirates?
Explain to me again how you know/why you think the setup doesn't have pirate townies?Thesp wrote:This line of thought is subpar, to say the least and saying it the kindest.Do not lynch me.
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I think it would be great if the town could find this out without hurting ourselves.Thesp wrote:
Do you think it would be worthwhile to find this information out?Guardian wrote:
What if there are scum pirates and town pirates? What if there areThesp wrote:
HOW??? Really, how?Guardian wrote:I personally can definitely see resurrecting a vigilante over a role-type-cop, with the appearance of what appears to be 3 scum factions.A weaker-than-standard information role is still far superior to have around than a vig,ceteris parabis.moretown pirates than scum pirates?
A vigilante can kill scum while a pirate-finder cannot. (largely speaking)Thesp wrote:A Pirate-finder could catch scum in a lie, and a vig cannot (largely speaking).
I am also unsure how useful it would be to the scum.Thesp wrote:This is in part why I still ponder whether or not it would be wise to make everyone claim pirate/ninja/neither - I'm not sure how useful it would be to the scum to know what townies are pirates/ninjas. If I were certain it wouldn't be useful to them, I'd press for it hardcore, because even scum lie here, there is something to catch them on (and I don't think townies would lie about this).
Why? Explain this to me, assuming it is not obvious.Thesp wrote:
I have said no such thing, nor do I think any such thing. I'm saying it's...less than stellar play...to regard a vig as more useful than an information role.Guardian wrote:
Explain to me again how you know/why you think the setup doesn't have pirate townies?Thesp wrote:This line of thought is subpar, to say the least and saying it the kindest.Do not lynch me.
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Guardian Mafia Scum
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*is extremely gratified about being correct about Gorrad*
now especially, I think Thesp owes the town to explain this BS Gorrad - Mars link he claimed to see so clearly earlier
People, I'm usually right about these things, just few listen to me and I have a hard time convincing people. Listen to me better :[ ].
Protip: Thesp needs more votes.Do not lynch me.
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Cuz I'm pretty baller about figuring out who is/isn't scum. I never saw one case on Gorrad that was convincing to me that he was scummy, and a few cases (especially some comments from Thesp) that seemed completely contrived/made up.Kison wrote:
Might I ask why you found Iammars to be scummier than, say, Gorrad, at the time?Guardian wrote:Second, how strongly do you think I believed in the wagon in the first place? When people asked me about this, I said "I think my vote is in a good place for now." I Never said OMG Mars=Scumz lynch lynch/dayvig! If you read my posts carefully I was never that fervent about lynching Iammars, but his was among the first substantial wagons, and I thought the evidence I uncovered was the best we had to go on at the time.
I stuck with Iammars until I found Thesp. No one else proposed anyone better while I was on Iammars. So I don't see how one could be troubled by me staying on Iammars.Kison wrote:The problem I'm having here is not with the Iammars wagon in itself. Rather, it's the level it progressed to over a rather minute point. Yes, I realize that there are several people out there who see a major severity in saying "Yarr", but I simply have to disagree, and this is perhaps why I am troubled by the people who stuck with Iammars as their top lynch candidate for so long.
Also -- "the level it progressed to"? Your post implies you find me suspicious; I find it odd to blame the first voter for "the level it progressed to".Do not lynch me.
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I'm pretty busy => reduced activity. I get much less busy Feb. 21.
I'll contribute as possible; meanwhile I still encourage Thesp votes. Note how both masons are voting Thesp. Note how I am voting Thesp. Go and do likewise.
Kison, Twomz, Rosso Carne are notably suspect lurkers/less actives, though. Still not sure what to think about flameaxe or cicero.
Cicero, where's that post of yours that was gonna consider everything that happened in the game, instead of just random points here and there?Do not lynch me.
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Thesp-Thok connection:
I'm not sure if I believe in this atm, in any event, I'd not push for Thok's lynch before Thesp's atm, so I'm not particularly interested in it right now.
But, my reasoning:
First, there was a suspicious undercurrent of Thok & Thesp "knowing something we didn't know" that they discussed for a while, which felt to me like it might have been scum talk. This was the main thing I didn't like; their interaction didn't feel genuine.
Then, there are multiple instances where Thok calls Thesp town-like/null-tell for things that imo are very similar if not exactly the same to things he finds as scum tells for others, notably how Thesp acted on the Mars wagon.
Even recently, when I put out some bait using the questionable argument of appealing to authority by saying "look the masons are voting thesp, you should too", Thok jumped in and refocused an attack on me before anyone else had the chance to respond to my comment.
So, I feel like Thok and Thesp were communicating about something, and also I see Thok's recurring theme of defending Thesp for actions similar to what others have done, and trying to redirect discussion about Thesp to discussion of other candidates.
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I have a few more things to say right now, but I'm going to split them up into separate posts. The above is the basis of my thinking on Thok being linked to Thesp. I don't neccesarily believe that Thok scum would imply Thesp scum, but Thesp scum might point to Thok scum.Do not lynch me.
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Thesp, I don't think that interpretation of Gorrad-Iammars is very reasonable.
Gorrad said he didn't want to mess up another "secret plan" like he did earlier, so he put a weak FOS on to see where it went. Even so, he explicitly stated he didn't like the Iammars wagon, but that he'd like to hear what Iammars had to say.
I don't really buy seeing that interaction as a link, because I can't see myself seeing it as a link. It seems made up.Do not lynch me.
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I want to reiterate that I don't think that is at all a fair assumption to make about my moving my vote. I abandoned it because your reasoning started to make some sense, and Thesp seemed like a more promising target.Erg0 wrote:I really have difficulty understanding why Guardian is kind of skating by for doing much the same thing as Thesp, but then abandoning his position when it became clear that it was becoming unpopular. At least Thesp stuck to his guns in the face of the wagon against him, which is either a sign that he was acting in good faith or a pretty big gamble if he's scum.
You claim I couldn't have possibly been swayed by your arguments -- that's basically premising I'm up to no good to begin with, an assumption I find you having no basis for holding.
Speaking of which, what has Iammars actually done for us:
0) Confirmed like a pirate
1) Randomly voted cicero, a vote he has yet to change
2) Said he was away, and that's why he didn't respond.
3) Said he confirmed like a pirate because he felt like being in flavor, but wasn't a pirate yet wasn't, in fact, sure if he was a pirate.
4) Said he'd like to daykill Thesp for finding him suspicious. Don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely opposed to the sentiment of daykilling Thesp -- but Iammars's reasons are basically "OMGUS".
Claimed Wikipedia wasn't helping him with his role.
5) Clarified -- Wikipedia had his rolebut he couldn't tell from the wiki if his character was a pirate
The above is certainly not helpful, pro-town, and I find the part I bolded quite suspicious. I was fairly familiar with my role, but the first thing I did after confirming was checking wikipedia to make sure there wasn't some pirate/ninja connection I didn't know about. Furthermore, if I was in a state of uncertainty about whether or not my role was a pirate *in a stoofer game* I sure as hell would NOT confirm with pirate flavor because I *felt like it*.
I am definitely suspicious of Iammars, and I feel there is good reason to be.
Think about it: you are unsure if you are a pirate/not a pirate, and you confirm with pirate flavor??? Seriously???
My list right now is something like:
Thesp
Iammars
MBF
Those less actives I find suspicious, like KisonDo not lynch me.
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Guardian Mafia Scum
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Thesp, I think a large ammount of your "refutation" of my argument is that you didn't understand I wasn't arguing for Thok being scum independently, bur rather that if you were scum Thok would be more likely to be scum.
I have a question for you -- I put this argument out there, to see how people would respond -- just like you put your argument out there that we should all claim pirate/not pirate.Thesp wrote:
Am I reading this right - you have problems with Thok for calling you out on an argument you knew was problematic?Guardian wrote:Even recently, when I put out some bait using the questionable argument of appealing to authority by saying "look the masons are voting thesp, you should too", Thok jumped in and refocused an attack on me before anyone else had the chance to respond to my comment.
You got really angry with Gorrad for messing that up; how is this scenario different?
I see no basis for this other than you asserting it right now. It's great that "you are thinking it more and more" but that isn't anything I can refute and is pretty substance-free.Thesp wrote:I'm thinking more and more as I hear from you that you're just full of it, whether it's because you've pre-concluded that I'm scum and are trying to make the facts fit the theory, or because you're scum making it up.
Conspiring about a secret with a scum isn't a scumtell? I'm not arguing for Thok being scum. I arguing that, assuming Thesp is scum, Thok may be scum with Thesp.Thesp wrote:One more thing:
I agree entirely with (1) - I'm not sure how it's an indication that the two communicating are more likely to be scum.Guardian, numbers mine wrote:So,(1)I feel like Thok and Thesp were communicating about something, and also(2)I see Thok's recurring theme of defending Thesp for actions similar to what others have done, and(3)trying to redirect discussion about Thesp to discussion of other candidates.
I understand the reasons he's giving, but for examples with Iammars wagon, he finds others scummy for it but not you, because you were more stubborn. That seems odd.Thesp wrote:As to (2), I'm interested in seeing what similarities you've observed, as I've noticed him defending me, but I haven't noticed what he's theoretically overlooked in others.
Thesp, I'm not using this as a case for (Thok-scum). I am using it as a case for (Thesp scum may imply Thok scum). Surely directing attention away from a scum onto others is an indication you may be paired with them.Thesp wrote:As to (3), wouldn't that be the sensible thing to do if you thought the figure seemingly in the biggest spotlight wasn't scum? I know I would - I'm not sure why I would do any different.
Then you need to work on your critical reading skills :\. Firstly, I'm not using any of this to directly say (Thok is scum). Secondly, of those I do find suspicious, I have substantive arguments that make sense.Guardian wrote:I don't know what basis you're using to divine why someone is more likely to be scum, other than "I don't like how he's playing".
They don't indicate he is scum independently, that wasn't the point....Thesp wrote:I don't see how (in the case of (1) and (3)) those actions are likely to indicate that someone is scum, and in the case of (2), I just don't see it.
This is nothing but rhetoric; a baseless, empty sentence.Thesp wrote:I'm having a hard time taking you seriously anymore.
Yeah? What about a townie power role who has some suspicion on him and doesn't want to be outed, or a vanilla who doesn't want to be lynched?Thesp wrote:
THAT'S EXACTLY WHY IT SHOULD THROW UP RED FLAGS. IT'S INDICATING WISHY-WASHINESS, WHICH IS MORE OFTEN SEEN IN SCUM.Guardian wrote:Gorrad said he didn't want to mess up another "secret plan" like he did earlier, so he put a weak FOS on to see where it went. Even so, he explicitly stated he didn't like the Iammars wagon, but that he'd like to hear what Iammars had to say.
I don't really see how he was anything more than superficially seeming to apply pressure -- the content of his post was basically "I don't buy it, but let's see what Iammars says." This wouldn't have gotten him any leverage if Iammars showed up scum.Thesp wrote:SCUM ESPECIALLY LIKE TO APPEAR THAT THEY ARE AGAINST THEIR PARTNERS WITHOUT PUTTING GENUINE PRESSURE, WHICH IS WHAT SAID QUOTE DID.
Wait, no, you're kidding!? People... LIE... in mafia??? Please, teach me more.[/sarcasm]Thesp wrote:PS: In Mafia, the scum often do not tell the truth.
Come on, Thesp! I'm saying I didn't see a lie where you did. Obviously people lie. I tried to explain why I didn't think Gorrad was lying -- not that no one lies..
Wait -- you are using this bit as an argument for why he was scum. You can't base an argument for someone being scum with "I thought he was likely to be scum, so I interpreted this as himg being scum." Circular arguments have no place in mafia.Thesp wrote:I'm uncertain why you think I should have taken Gorrad at his word when he said he was just trying to play along, particularly when I thought he was likely to be scum at the time.Do not lynch me.
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Guardian Mafia Scum
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I find it hard to believe you think that. The reasoned arguments here are a FAR cry from the bullshit I was espousing in 19. For everyone's refernce: In 19 I was scum and, for example, I pursued one player for 5+ game days, and one of my main arguments against him wasThok wrote:Blah, Guardian feels like he's trying to make stuff up, which gives me a big Open 19 vibe which means he needs to be lynched ASAP.that he responded to posts. Comparing that to my arguments here is absurd.
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Thesp -- you followed my case on Iammars for longer than I did, for a while there. Now I'm not making any sense and you find it hard to take me seriously, and you should be slapped if you quote me? Pretty HUGE turnaround.
Also, I note that you quoted about half of my points, I assume in your opinion the worst ones. If you're going to quote my posts and respond, at least do a half decent job of doing so.
Ignoring me, claiming I'm making things up, and asserting that you find it hard to take me seriously aren't going to make me go away, or make my arguments go away.
A very easy thing to do as scum is to ignore arguments against you; if you aren't called on it, it is a much better tact than actually responding, as attackers of you can easily slip to the background and you can start wagons on others. I find it hard to believe Thesp, as town, would decide to completely ignore a player. What if I were scum? Wouldn't he want to pay close attention and point that out. Very suspicious.Do not lynch me.
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