Mini 539: Game over

[MafiaSSK]

Good luck Town and make the right choices.

[Justin Playfair]

Xtoxm,

You go crazy to lynch Gorgon as soon as he makes his cop claim. As soon as I make the argument that we shouldn’t lynch him immediately you would rather lynch me than Hjallti, even though throughout the game you’ve claimed to believe I’m town. On the morning after I posted that we needed to take a long hard look at Gorgon’s cop claim, you vote him in your first post. He ends up dying and turns out to have been a cop. Now on the morning after you charged through lynching our cop you vote me, without even an ounce of discussion, and assume that there must be a godfather. Then you try to hurry Kuribo into hammering me.

This would be the third day in a row that you have tried to rush town to an immediate lynch without any discussion. Yesterday you had no interest in thinking about whether or not we had a godfather. Today you place an immediate vote on me, not only assuming we have one but also assuming, without even taking a look around, that it must be me.

And I understand your thinking completely. First, between me and Kuribo, who would seem more likely to make a quick decision and cast a quick vote that would end the game? Yeah, that would be Kuribo. Second, who has been more openly suspicious of the way you’ve been playing these last few days? Yeah, that would be me.

Here’s the thing, Xtoxm. If Kuribo is scum he could have just won by hammering me. There is no reason on earth for a scummy Kuribo not to have already voted. And there was no pro-town reason for you to come in to today and cast an immediate vote on either one of us. Because no one but scum could have that kind of assurance. I’ve had a town read on Kuribo and a scum read on you for almost the entire game, but I wouldn’t have just voted you as soon as the sun came up. You’ve claimed a town read on me for most of the game and you voted with no explanation whatsoever.

Vote: Xtoxm

It’s in your hands, Kuribo. I know you’re town. If you weren’t I wouldn’t be alive to post this.

[Xtoxm]

Kuribo, why you no hammer JP?

Because I'm leaning toward him being town. My gut has been telling me you're scum, and now you're all too eager to drop the bomb.

Fine, lynch me then and give the game to scum.

Your choice.

[kuribo]

Way to put the game in my hands


As I've stated before, two thoughts are in my head:

1) I have long thought Xtoxm to be scum. For awhile, I thought maybe he was a cop with a guilty verdict on someone. I now know this to be false. However, as scum, he WOULD know who the scum are.

2) I've also long thought Justin Playfair to be town. When I advocated his lynch, it was in order to try and get a better read on him, and learn a little more about Gorgon.

Was I hasty in disbelieving Gorgon? Absolutely.

However, I now see the fact that he wasn't NK'd as what it was--- an attempt by scum to be clever and get the town to do his dirty work.

Xtoxm, the "appeal to emotion" bit doesn't phase me one bit. In fact, it looks scummy, just like a few other things you've done.

I don't think I'm going to be able to glean any more information than I already have from this game.

It's less than a toss-up--- I strongly believe I am making the right decision. If Justin is mafia, he's played far better than his scum buddies. I don't like the term "scum deserves a win," because I am always playing to win as town--- even when playing against brilliant scum.

So, in the final attempt to secure a town win,

Vote: Xtoxm

and may God have mercy on my soul.

[Nanosauromo]

The two townsfolk carried their kicking and screaming companion to the gallows and hung him. As soon as Xtoxm stopped breathing, Justin Playfair pulled out a gun and stared at Kuribo with an evil glint in his eye. Before he died, Kuribo realized with horror that he had helped kill the last innocent, and had handed the town over to the mafia.

Congratulations, scum! You win!

[Incognito]

JP = Godfather? That's evil. Well played, Justin.

[Claus]

Lol. Congratulations, JP.

In spite of losing the other two scum early, and a doc/cop/vig/mason town, you managed to make it. I'm impressed.

Heh, this was my first game as scum in MS, and I think I really handled it very badly. To my defense, my "The List" (I lolled so hard seeing you all make such a big deal of it through the game), was composed of honest scumhunting, with two exceptions:

1- I actually thought Ythill was scummy, but I had already written him down as the NK target.
2- I put one of the lurkers (charter?) as pro-town to fill that part of the list a little more.

I'm also a bit disappointed with Gorgon's break down when he was lynched. Truth and lies are both
essencial parts of mafia. Your lynch really could not have been helped. I hope you come back to
discuss this.

[Justin Playfair]

Yeah, Claus, but it was your attack on me day two and Shteven convincing me to kill Ythill night one that had the most to do with scum winning. The only thing I'll claim in my favor was deciding to stick Jester in as a night kill, but even that almost backfired horribly when Gorgon claimed cop. Here I was, absolutely convinced Kuribo was a cop, so convinced that I had argued he was town in every situation. And suddenly there are three claimed power roles, only two nights to kill them in, and only two other guys left I can makes cases on.

And sorry, Gorgon. I hope you change your mind.

[Justin Playfair]

And thank you, Incognito.

Truth is, though, I think town was packed in this game. Kuribo getting Shteven was just brilliant. An absolute disaster, like a bolt of lightning. Same thing with Ythill killing Claus. You played your mason claim extremely well, demonstrated by the fact that once you made your claim neither you nor Mafia were ever seriously considered for lynching. And when you came up with that game of Nano’s I wanted to scream. Jester was good, too, and the main reason I killed him was that I had no idea which way he would jump the next day.

Something just happened when town got so far ahead. I don’t think it had much to do with me, though. In fact, I would reverse what you said in the game. Town probably deserved to win this one.

[Jester]

Boo. My first loss as town. I think we can lay it at Gorgon's feet, though. I hate it when people go ballistic on the forums.

Congrats, JP. And you're right, killing me was the right choice, 'cause I was getting suspicious of you. You played a good game, but you're right, town deserved to win this one. It was Gorgon's fault that we didn't. If he'd been more engaged earlier in the game, I think it would have gone differently.

Oh well, it happens.

[Jester]

Well, actually, laying it ALL at Gorgon's feet is unfair, so scratch that. We had some other seriously disengaged townies, MafiaSSK and Hjallti high among them.

Town had a good opening, and a seriously poor mid- and end-game.

[Hjallti]

WXas I disengage? That is a stupid omgus reaction because I was not believing you. you may say I was mistaken, but not disengaged, Jester.

[Claus]

Guys, let's not go around assigning blame for the game result. It leads nowhere.

[Hjallti]

The reason I (seemingly together with Incognito) was promoting the no-Gorgon-kill as worst case scenatio was because I did believe it was not the worst case scenario.

Somewhere I forgot about the godfather scenario, partly due to the fact Nano didn't use Goon, but we should have realised that his first time modding he would not have felt the urge to do this.

If there was no godfather, Justin should have realized that he would be investigated and thus killed Gorgon. If Xtoxm or kuribo was the third scum, they then might have Gorgon kept alive. If Gorgon investigate someone else that Justin (which he should have, but this I only realized this when he was already lynched) he would have known the setup: Justin was town, because Gorgon lived, and the investigation would distinct between Xtoxm and kuribo. Unfortunately this was under the no godfather assumption.

From in the beginning when I joined I somehow had the feeling Justin might have invited me to join this game because he knew I would easily be taken for scummy. For instance, I still don't understand why people find discussions about the setup scummy but Justin kept on pointing out that considering a nolynch short before endgame was scummy, just like kuribo kept on considering SK as possibility was scummy. I still think that tunneling on one option (like declaring there is no SK what kuribo did is worse for town, than disregarding that option), and to come back to the final result: we partly lost the game by disregarding the godfather possibility, while some did find a additional cop to be overbalanced for town.

What if Ythill had not claimed that early? ....

[Shteven]

I'd like to think I was helpful to my team, but I think I fell into the trap of being naturally defensive and kuribo being naturally offensive. When someone says something about me, I respond. But it went on way too long.

Still, I remember an old game where I was a godfather and was lynched on day 1 (and scum won - Married to the mob). So now I'm just a goon, lynched on day 2...that's making progress, I say.

[Shteven]

And no offense to the town, but it was really surreal to keep hearing everyone say "Well justin is hard to read so let's assume he's town." I get exactly the same read on him honestly, so I'm not blaming anyone, but wow.

Justin, how are we supposed to spot you?

[Claus]

Meh. Were I town, I would have gunned for justin. I was actually serious when I said that he never actually presented his positions clearly.

Something I see people often forgetting around here is that scum can be wordy and logical just as well as town can. No matter how much sense someone makes, you need to be able to see clearly what they are basing themselves on.

As for "Discussing the setup is scummy", I would say that "discussing the setup is unhelpful" - and insisting in being unhelpful is scummy. But then again town do scummy things sometimes as well, and it is the town's job to try to find out the goals of each player.

[Xtoxm]

Hjallti played well and by the time he was lynched I could see he was town, which is why I asked for a JP lynch that day.

I had started to see scummyness in JP, particularly his continual attempts to get us ripping into our masons.

But nothing that outed my issues with presence of cop, choice of investigation, lack of result N1 etc...

[Xtoxm]

And no offense to the town, but it was really surreal to keep hearing everyone say "Well justin is hard to read so let's assume he's town." I get exactly the same read on him honestly, so I'm not blaming anyone, but wow.

Justin, how are we supposed to spot you?

Hey, I got him in the end.

[Claus]

And no offense to the town, but it was really surreal to keep hearing everyone say "Well justin is hard to read so let's assume he's town." I get exactly the same read on him honestly, so I'm not blaming anyone, but wow.

Justin, how are we supposed to spot you?

Hey, I got him in the end.

By elimination proccess

Changing the subject: Nanossauro, thanks for the game, but doc/cop/vig/mason is a bit unbalanced towards the town, no?

[Xtoxm]

Evidently not - When the last power claims there is not enough credibilty for them to be believed.

Had Gorgon been a vanilla I believe we'd have lynched him that day he claimed and gone on to get JP.

[kuribo]

Evidently not - When the last power claims there is not enough credibilty for them to be believed.

Had Gorgon been a vanilla I believe we'd have lynched him that day he claimed and gone on to get JP.

This is true.

Justin played really well throughout. In the end, it was my own assumptions about my previously formed opinion regarding Xtoxm that cost us the game--- I had long found him scummy (and indeed some of his actions seemed that way) and once Gorgon got the innocent result back on JP, it seemed like a no-brainer.

[kuribo]

Something I see people often forgetting around here is that scum can be wordy and logical just as well as town can. No matter how much sense someone makes, you need to be able to see clearly what they are basing themselves on.

It wasn't necessarily that I found JP so pro-town that I thought he was absolutely not scum, it was that I found Xtoxm to be so scummy that I figured I was making the right choice.

Imagine how things would have went if I had managed to convince the rest of us to lynch JP instead of Hjallti, when I said, "I think we should lynch JP because he's hard to read."

[Hjallti]

That he was hard to read was also my reason to vote him off. I was really surprized to read I was lynched after been away for 3 days, and having no votes when I actually left.

Justin played brilliantly that week...

[Incognito]

Mod: Just a suggestion. I think next time you have specialized mafia roles (like a Godfather), you should probably list the normal mafia members as "Goons". I think the fact that they weren't listed that way also caused some confusion among us and certainly influenced me into thinking that we could not have a Godfather.