Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!

[dahill1]

well we have to come to a decision then..
should we lynch Spacecase or Phate? (who i think are both the most suspicious)

[The Fonz]

Well, clearly, we should lynch Spacecase.

I'd actually rather lynch you than Phate.

[dahill1]

you don't think Spacecase and Phate have basically the same case against them?

[The Fonz]

Phate never voted Kabenon.

[LaptopGun]

Sorry for just getting the number of times you refuted me wrong, but I still think you are twisting everything because you desperately wanted to lynch spacecase.

I've said my role before, I've done it in my other games, I habitually do it. Sorry if it bugs you now.

[The Fonz]

It doesn't matter if it bugs me. What matters is that it's something that's obviously to the town's detriment if done by a town player, and clearly benefitting to a godfather or SK (since it makes you less likely to be NKed).

So in other games, do you just go, 'Oh, and by the way guys, I'm a doctor?'

[LaptopGun]

I've been town in those games.

[The Fonz]

By 'town' I assume you mean 'townie?' Do you always do it when you are vanilla?

This is basically the (old) Battle Mage defence. I know it harms the town, but I always do it, so it's ok.

[Shteven]

Regardless of LTG's claim being a good or a bad move, the fact remains I believe Cipher's claim and I believe his innocent result. There is the outside chance that LTG is investigation immune, yes. But for now, I'm assuming he's town, and he's claimed vanilla, so vanilla he is. The key point here is that just because you're town doesn't mean you play 'perfectly'. Perfect game play varies by who you ask, so really there's no universal perfect play. That said, I do agree that vanillas should not just drop their role causally, but he did, let's get over it.

I am much more concerned with the lack of votes today, not on any specific wagon, but overall. Even I'm a bit guilty of this - I may have started spacecase and can certainly take credit (or blame) for that, but since then I've been laying back on it. I think we all need to step up the scum hunting.

[Shteven]

In addition: Dropping scum tells doesn't mean you're scum. If you believe his claim, then the mistake that he made the claim is moot. So, Fonz: Do you think LTG is scum? If yes, why haven't you voted him for it or at least FOS'ed? If no, why are you attacking him when you believe his claim?

[Spacecase]

Are role claims normally this chaotic?

[vollkan]

i unvoted because it appeared no one else was going to vote him. in fact, i think some people unvoted him.

How exactly does that affect you justifiably unvoting?

This is basically the (old) Battle Mage defence. I know it harms the town, but I always do it, so it's ok.

And the problem with the old BM defence is that it legitimises scummy play providing you are consistent, making it globally anti-town.

That said, I believe Cipher and, thus, I believe LTG. It's just a pain that this has happened.

[LaptopGun]

A good chunk of the blame belongs to me for bothering to try to refute everything Fonz.

And yes Fonz I wrote it as town=townie.

[dahill1]

i unvoted because it appeared no one else was going to vote him. in fact, i think some people unvoted him.

How exactly does that affect you justifiably unvoting?

it didn't appear to me that SC was going to be lynched, so I voted Phate and made a case against him because he was the next most suspicious.

[vollkan]

i unvoted because it appeared no one else was going to vote him. in fact, i think some people unvoted him.

How exactly does that affect you justifiably unvoting?

it didn't appear to me that SC was going to be lynched, so I voted Phate and made a case against him because he was the next most suspicious.

The purpose of lynching is to lynch scum? Yes or No.

If yes: The best player to push a lynch of is the scummiest player? Yes or No.

If yes: Why then are you voting your second most suspect?

[dahill1]

i unvoted because it appeared no one else was going to vote him. in fact, i think some people unvoted him.

How exactly does that affect you justifiably unvoting?

it didn't appear to me that SC was going to be lynched, so I voted Phate and made a case against him because he was the next most suspicious.

The purpose of lynching is to lynch scum? Yes or No.

If yes: The best player to push a lynch of is the scummiest player? Yes or No.

If yes: Why then are you voting your second most suspect?

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) The lack of particpation seemed to indicate that he was not going to be lynched.

[vollkan]

To try and understand this:

You are saying that the difference in scumminess is made up for by the fact that SC's lynch seemed less likely to go ahead?

If so, why? I also don't accept "lack of participation" as a reason. That may have as much to do with people just being bored as with lack of enthusiasm about SC.

[The Fonz]

In addition: Dropping scum tells doesn't mean you're scum. If you believe his claim, then the mistake that he made the claim is moot. So, Fonz: Do you think LTG is scum? If yes, why haven't you voted him for it or at least FOS'ed? If no, why are you attacking him when you believe his claim?

I love the smell of a false dichotomy in the morning.

I don't decide whether I believe someone's claim, then act accordingly. I act in a way that is likely to shed light on the truth or otherwise of someone's claim.

Yes, a very credible claimed cop has claimed an innocent on him. I believe this investigation. That's why I said we're not lynching him anytime soon.

However, claiming to be a townie when there is no need to claim at all, especially when you have an innocent investigation on you, is somewhat detrimental to that player's win condition. It makes it easier for scum to find power roles. That's why I asked LTG if he always did this when townie- because if you habitually claim for no reason when vanilla, doesn't that make it obvious when you don't that you're a power role?

However, if you ARE a serial killer or Godfather, it is beneficial to 'let slip' a townie claim. Why? Because if you're an investigated innocent, who has as much chance as anyone of being a doctor, then you're a prime target for nightkilling. If you claim townie, you become a less desireable target to the other faction.

Therefore, what Laptopgun did was scummy. Am I voting for it? No, because I'm not particularly convinced he's scum. Do I find him scummier than before he did it? Yes. Could this be worth looking at, if several days down the line, I'm dead and we still haven't found the Godfather or SK? Absolutely.

The innocent investigation makes him much less likely to be scum. His actions today make him more likely. Does the latter outweigh the former? Not yet.

In addition, even if LTG is simply a townie who made a mistake, pointing out the anti-town nature of the 'mistake' lets other players know not to do it. If no-one pointed out that what LTG did was detrimental to the town, other players might think that it's an OK thing to do as well. We have several fairly new players here.

Plus, it is of course possible that LTG is town who just didn't realise why claiming unnecessarily is harmful. In that case, pointing it out is beneficial from a 'standard of play on the site' standpoint.

I've

got a consistent meta of getting pissed at people who appeared to let slip role information unnecessarily, and by no means did i feel all those players were actually scum.

[dahill1]

To try and understand this:

You are saying that the difference in scumminess is made up for by the fact that SC's lynch seemed less likely to go ahead?

If so, why? I also don't accept "lack of participation" as a reason. That may have as much to do with people just being bored as with lack of enthusiasm about SC.

well, overall, the difference in scumminess was very little. in fact, to me they were practically the same but we just decided to lynch SC first.

[Shteven]

@fonz: After I posted my question, I did realize that I should have left a bit more room for the middle ground, but you explained it rather well so I'm satisfied with that.

@Vollkan: I do think you're skewing the situation slightly. Lynches tend to happen (in theory) in two steps. First, people make accusations/cases on other players, and vote for who they think is scummy. Then, the town as a whole has to analyze the various targets and collectively pick one. One player cannot lynch anyone alone. Now I'm not a fan of dahill's recent play either, but after expressing your choice there does come a time when in order to lynch someone the town must start agreeing. I would have mentioned that this is what I was doing and repeated that player A is still my first choice but that I'd be willing to lynch player B before moving the vote, but every day in mafia there's someone who isn't getting their first choice lynched.

This is another angle on the explaination with why I'm upset with today's day 3. We haven't had enough people building cases on enough seperate targets to really get to the point where we can compare and pick the best one. Most of the day it was only spacecase, now we have phate. I'd like to have more than this, though.

[The Fonz]

@Vollkan: I do think you're skewing the situation slightly. Lynches tend to happen (in theory) in two steps. First, people make accusations/cases on other players, and vote for who they think is scummy. Then, the town as a whole has to analyze the various targets and collectively pick one. One player cannot lynch anyone alone. Now I'm not a fan of dahill's recent play either, but after expressing your choice there does come a time when in order to lynch someone the town must start agreeing.

Whilst your first choice is at lynch -1 seems an odd time to come to that conclusion, though, doesn't it?

That said, this does not look particularly like staged distancing, and dahill does at least appear to be trying.

[The Fonz]

Mod: Prod Rigel (no posts in over a week) and Oman (no posts since sat).

[Oman]

[The Fonz]

Lynch all lurkers?

[Oman]

I've been tossing up the cases. I don't want to post some half-baked idea.

I think the spacecase wagon had scum on it. And I'm not entirely happy with Phate right now, but I'd still be fine with lynching Spacecase.