Mini #553: Over!

[destructor]

Sorry for being lazy Vote Count!

Votes required:

5 to lynch

Matt_S

-

Khelvaster

Qman

-

massive

massive

-

destructor

Not Voting:

5, Imat, Matt_S, Oman, Mert, Ting =)

massive, you're just trying to spin this around back to me. What exactly is suspicious about someone noting that mafia could night-talk pre-game in

other games

?

Also from the first page, you have consistently indicated that you believe that the Mafia have safeclaims. I still believe that it is VERY unusual to be given a safeclaim. You appear to think otherwise. I think it's because you knew the Mafia had safeclaims -- you had one in your own PM.

More spin. Your trying to paint what was a pro-town act as scummy. Until CoolBot's reveal, none of the town had

any

reason to assume scum

didn't

have safe claims. If they do, a mass claim was ALWAYS going to bad for the town. You already asked me about this yesterday anyway. Given the way you're reacting now, it seems that whatever answer I gave would be suspicious.

And again, why on earth aren't you suspicious of Khelvaster at all? He's the one who opened this can of worms in the first place. Instead you're pointing at me for cautioning the town.

I'll go over massive's behaviour around Matt from Day 1 later when I have more time.

[massive]

I'm not suspicious of Khelvaster because his actions would only be understandable if he (a) had a named role and (b) his named role was a member of the Fellowship. Otherwise his plan to "break the mod" by nameclaiming has absolutely no point.

What's suspicious about someone noting that Mafia could talk pre-game

in other games

and that same someone noting that Mafia have been given fake roleclaims

in other games

? That someone is continuously talking about

other games

and trying to apply the rules and role PMs from other games to THIS game. If you have no basis for supposing that the Mafia could talk pre-game and that there were safe roleclaims, you are just wildly speculating, and that's not helpful for the town. ESPECIALLY when one of these wild speculations is your reason for not wanting to go along with the nameclaim in the first place.

Yes, it's very possible that whatever answer you gave would be suspicious, mostly because you mentioned safeclaims out of the blue on Day One without any provocation.

[Matt_S]

I'm not suspicious of Khelvaster because his actions would only be understandable if he (a) had a named role and (b) his named role was a member of the Fellowship. Otherwise his plan to "break the mod" by nameclaiming has absolutely no point.

Or he's scum with a safe claim who thinks he can break the mod in favor of the scum. Why do you ignore this possibility?

[massive]

Because I think it's a huge, unnecessary gamble for a scum with a safeclaim to make. If you're scum with a safeclaim, you STILL want to lay as low as possible and keep all the role names from coming out -- otherwise, the first time a scum turns up dead, the town has a pretty good idea that scum have safeclaims and invalidates the whole thing.

Also, there's this: If Khelvaster is scum and DOESN'T know the safeclaims of his scum buddies, then his play is doubly dangerous, as he could potentially out his buddies. If Khelvaster is scum and DOES know the safeclaims of his scum buddies, then he knows CoolBot has a "named non-Fellowship" safeclaim, and wouldn't come up with the idea. Cogito ergo not scum.

[Matt_S]

Because I think it's a huge, unnecessary gamble for a scum with a safeclaim to make. If you're scum with a safeclaim, you STILL want to lay as low as possible and keep all the role names from coming out -- otherwise, the first time a scum turns up dead, the town has a pretty good idea that scum have safeclaims and invalidates the whole thing.

Also, there's this: If Khelvaster is scum and DOESN'T know the safeclaims of his scum buddies, then his play is doubly dangerous, as he could potentially out his buddies. If Khelvaster is scum and DOES know the safeclaims of his scum buddies, then he knows CoolBot has a "named non-Fellowship" safeclaim, and wouldn't come up with the idea. Cogito ergo not scum.

Did CoolBot really claim named non-Fellowship?

There are nine people in the Fellowship. In the novel, they all of names, and from khel's actions, it seems pretty clear that he has a name and is part of the Fellowship.

Fellowship means pro-town.

This doesn't really make sense considering your actions. When I said I wasn't part of the Fellowship, you said:

While it's comforting to learn that I'm not alone,

I don't get this. If you are part of the Fellowship, how did anything I said convince you that you weren't alone? I never said I had no name and I specifically said I wasn't in the Fellowship.

My PM does not specifically say that the Fellowship is the Town; it says a lot of stuff about conquering the baddies, but it doesn't say anything about the Fellowship.

That's more or less what mine says too. That's why this townsman in the fellowship stuff confuses me. If anyone is named, I have to believe it's those in the fellowship.

He says he wasn't fellowship. He never really claims named from what I remember, because he really avoided that. Then the second quote seems to be saying that he's not named, since fellowship people are more likely to be those with names. There's no guarantee that what CoolBot was going with was his safeclaim, if he even had one.

Now I ask this. Do you have any evidence for Khelvaster being a townie that isn't WIFOM?

[massive]

CoolBot's claim is inferrable if not stated outright:

I'm not part of the Fellowship. That's shouldn't be surprising, as the game would be seriously broken if the town was only the Fellowship. So it's likely all a mass claim would accomplish is give the mafia clues to who our power roles are.

And then he fails to back YOU when you say you are unnamed. And he says this:

I never claimed whether I have a name or not. And I won't do so until necessary. I don't know why ting thinks I don't have a name, but I didn't want to address it for fear that it might help scum craft a claim by knowing for sure whether there are named townies outside the fellowship.

I -inferred- that he had a name from this, because I was also named-non-Fellowship.

And look, I don't know one way or the other if the scum have safeclaims. I wouldn't even be visiting this possibility if it wasn't for destructor saying, TWICE ON THE FIRST PAGE, something about scum having safeclaims. Obviously CoolBot was lying and being vague about his role and trying to fish out What Exactly the makeup of the town was, and I imagine it's easy to say that trying to figure out "if the scum have safeclaims" is WIFOM.

My "evidence" for Khelvaster being town is, quite simply, his idea of the name claim. I believe that, in order for him to even POSIT that the entire town might have the roles listed in his very first post, he MUST be one of them himself. That's not WIFOM. He wouldn't come up with a plan to out the non-Fellowship people and then sheepishly raise his own hand.

[Matt_S]

I believe that, in order for him to even POSIT that the entire town might have the roles listed in his very first post, he MUST be one of them himself. That's not WIFOM.

Or he has a safeclaim of one of the roles. The whole "scum wouldn't do that" is what makes it WIFOM.

[massive]

I don't think it's WIFOM. I think it's Occam's Razor. The conclusion that Khelvaster is town requires the least number of assumptions of game conditions that we don't absolutely know.

What IS WIFOM is using the possibility of him having a safeclaim as a reason to believe he is scum. There is still no proof anywhere that these safeclaims exist.

Looking back over the thread, I can definitely see where I may have misinterpreted CoolBot's "role reveal" -- it could very well have been an outright guess, based on his own beliefs of the setup and not, in fact, on a safeclaim. It may have just been because he picked someone obtuse as his own fake claim, should it have come to that -- obviously that's the easiest route to take without the knowledge that random unnamed townies exist. He may have just rolled with it. I was probably placing my OWN information and my OWN alignment in place of his -- "how else would he know that named-non-Fellowship existed if he wasn't too?" -- that certainly seems much more likely to me than this safeclaim nonsense.

And NONE of this changes the fact that Qman is mafia.

[Qman]

And NONE of this changes the fact that Qman is mafia.

Except the fact that I'm you know... NOT.

Look, your entire case is built upon trying to link me to coolbot, through logic you have admitted on THIS PAGE was based on a misremembering of his posts. Are you Hillary Clinton? The other reason is "Jeeps Scum Tells" a list which I personally discount and find useless, therefor I don't abide by them.

I'm very much done responding to your asinine acusation now, until you find a new basis for it. Good day.

[massive]

I think, in the future, I will avoid playing games with Qman.

My opinion that you are scum has nothing to do with misinterpreting CoolBot, or with safeclaims, and I find your "Angry Townie Defense" insulting.

[Qman]

I think, in the future, I will avoid playing games with Qman.

My opinion that you are scum has nothing to do with misinterpreting CoolBot, or with safeclaims, and I find your "Angry Townie Defense" insulting.

Sure it does. And I'm not angry I just don't bother to defend myself against claims that I find baseless. I honestly am not trying to insult you, and apologize for doing so, I just don't feel your accusation is worth much more energy.

I've addressed them, and I feel no need to continue to address your accusation, until you discover something new to bring up. That said....


Here's your post

I'm fairly sure Qman is mafia. His posts on this page are of the "hey, I'll refer to my nightkill as 'interesting' to throw people off the trail!" variety, which I recall is one of Jeep's Easy Scum Tells, which points me at him being responsible for one of the kills.

What would you have me do, just ignore the fact that people are dead? I'll do that from now on. There is always someone that comments on the kills first, and I don't care to dither around waiting for someone else to post first. You still haven't answered if it was my first post of the day that got you all riled up or my second. That does matter.

Then, I looked back and I noticed that after he replaced in, his big point was to try and get us to stop talking about previous roles, which is important information for the town.

Yes how dare i expect a normal mini to not have flavor, and how dare I do what the mod told me to do: Ignore the fellowship flavor and talk. I still think it's retarded, if you care to know.

He continues on with it to the point that CoolBot makes a point of voting for him and telling him that this is important information, the point of the vote being to make sure his scum partner notices and lays off.

Heres the Coolbot thing, you thought he was pressing something and then used that mistake on your part to link me to him as him telling me to chill. Again, i didn't chill on it, I still feel the way I have felt, and I haven't been unvocal about it. You realy have nothing to link me to coolbot beyond a mistake you made because you misunderstood something earlier in the game. You don't expect that to annoy me a bit?

[massive]

What would you have me do, just ignore the fact that people are dead? I'll do that from now on. There is always someone that comments on the kills first, and I don't care to dither around waiting for someone else to post first. You still haven't answered if it was my first post of the day that got you all riled up or my second. That does matter.

It's the second. I realize that I am having a tendency to ignore the top post of each page ... I see the red and the vote count and immediately skip to the next post.

There's more than just "Jeep Scum Tell" to that, too. Obviously at that point there is three killing parties (hence the three dead bodies) and presumably one of them is a vig kill -- so going out of your way to state the obvious (to me) is you setting up for a possible vig claim down the line. Hence my first post after that says "I'm actually fairly sure Qman is a killer. I need to go back and re-read the thread and remember who he replaced before I can figure out if he's a good killer or a bad killer. "

I mean, if you want to go ahead and admit to being the vig and explain your thought process behind your kill, go nuts. =]

Yes how dare i expect a normal mini to not have flavor, and how dare I do what the mod told me to do: Ignore the fellowship flavor and talk. I still think it's retarded, if you care to know.

If you ignore the flavor and the talk surrounding the nameclaim suggestion from Day One, you are at the very least guilty of being lazy in your scumhunting efforts. It's important information, and obviously now that we have dead bodies, going back and looking for reactions could be key. So is it stubbornness, laziness? If you're town, please explain why you are willing to ignore such a big part of Day One's activity.

Heres the Coolbot thing, you thought he was pressing something and then used that mistake on your part to link me to him as him telling me to chill. Again, i didn't chill on it, I still feel the way I have felt, and I haven't been unvocal about it. You realy have nothing to link me to coolbot beyond a mistake you made because you misunderstood something earlier in the game. You don't expect that to annoy me a bit?

I don't think me being fooled by CoolBot's "named-but-not-Fellowship" role ruse has anything to do with whether or not he has trying to give you advice in-game. But if you do, please do explain.

In other news: I am really trying hard to figure out where all this presumptuous metagame guessing is coming from. It may simply be because I haven't played here in a while, but it really is flustering me. On top of destructor's safeclaim stuff, now Imat posted twice on the last page about the possible existence of a "CPR Doc", whatever that is -- I infer that it's some role that can protect or kill thanks to one post, but I don't understand it beyond that. I don't think it's common enough for Imat to presume it exists randomly ... just as I don't think safeclaims or pre-game Mafia talk are common enough for destructor to mention them out of the blue. So what's the deal? Imat?

[shaka!!]

mod:

How do the kills stack in this setup? If A sends in a night action to nk B, and B sends in a night action to nk C, will B and C both die, or will only B die and C will live?

B and C will both die.

[Qman]

Just popping in to say this is a conversation I don't mind having. I have Sunday and Tuesday off work so I'll get to this game then. I've two others I've been neglecting I need to address first though

[destructor]

Sorry I haven't posted in a while.

Mod:

Can Khelvaster, Imat, Mert and ting be prodded?

[destructor]

Oh, and yes, I will post some actual content tomorrow. I just noticed those guys hadn't posted in days.

[Matt_S]

Yeah, it'll be nice to hear from them. I've got a feeling this massive/Qman discussion won't get us anywhere.

[Khelvaster]

Yeah, I haven't posted because I've been too lost in this firestorm. Massive/Qman isn't going anywhere. I didn't want to draw their ire by "derailing" their argument.

[ting =)]

I'm sorry, I've been fairly busy as of late. As it is, I'm only posting in games which are at a critical stage. Apologies. I should be more free in a few days time.

[shaka!!]

Imat and Mert

have been prodded.

[massive]

Matt_S, Khelvaster:

Please, by all means, tell us who YOU think is suspicious.

[Matt_S]

Matt_S, Khelvaster:

Please, by all means, tell us who YOU think is suspicious.

Like I said some time ago, I'm waiting for Khelvaster to explain his first post of the day. And now that he's posted again without doing so, I think I'll

vote Khelvaster

.

[massive]

Obviously you think that he either (a) failed to read that CoolBot was the Mafia Godfather or (b) is scum and completely forgot that CoolBot was his Godfather. Which do you think is more likely?

[Matt_S]

Obviously you think that he either (a) failed to read that CoolBot was the Mafia Godfather or (b) is scum and completely forgot that CoolBot was his Godfather. Which do you think is more likely?

I was actually wondering if he meant something else entirely and just failed at language. Or he intentionally made that mistake. I figured he'd be the kind of guy who would read the dead guy's alignment, so I'm leaning away from a.

[Khelvaster]

Unvote: Matt_S

I don't know why I thought Coolbot was town and Talitha was scum.