Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!

[LoudmouthLee]

Okay, well then, did you read the part where I said that whether or not Spacecase is scum, he should be lynched today regardless? I don't think that going out on a limb and casting a single vote on Farside is very pro-town at this point.

I might have missed that post, can you reference it for me?

[Phate]

phate i believe i already answered your question..

dahill, your entire reason for suspecting me (without voting me, just gauging the waters) is that other people are on the wagon? You don't even take the time to find and echo their reasons, you just say 'good enough for them, good enough for me?'

That was an incredibly scummy post.

thats not my reason for suspecting you..
i just pointed out that the SC wagon was slowing, and you happened to be the next suspect on my (and others') list. my reasons for suspecting you is because you switched quickly from saying Kab is town to heavily suspecting him, just like Spacecase. also, as i pointed out before, you hadn't realized cipher had claimed which is scummy in my book. scum don't always have to read through the thread. they can just look for when they are mentioned and defend themselves to slip by. i'm not saying scum always do that, but it is more likely for scum than town to do that. furthermore, the fact that the confirmed townie and cop suspect you does somewhat contribute to my suspicion. i think that even though he might not have investigated you, Cipher's opinion should be the most highly valued because of his pro-town power role. LaptopGun also should have a valued opinion because he is confirmed town. there is a chance he could be the GF, but i believe him to be town.
those are my reasons

Trudging through your post (paragraph breaks and proper grammar would help me lots here), here are the reasons you have for suspecting me.

1. Cipher and LaptopGun are 'confirmed town', and they're voting me.
2. I'd forgotten or missed Cipher's claim.
3. I 'switched from saying Kab is town to heavily suspecting him'.

1: As has been stated, C and LG are neither confirmed town (though probable town) nor omniescent, and their opinions alone are not valid reasons for a vote.

2: As has been pointed out, missing a claim != scummy. Even if it were a general scumtell, though, consider the following. I'm in games, Open 60 - The New C9, and Mafia 74: Minimally Flavored Mafia. Compare my activity level and attentiveness in the two games and you'll find that they are similar: generally low, rising on weekends. My behaviour is the same in Open 53 - Near-Vanilla, where I was recently killed (as town, might I add). So even if low activity/attentiveness was scummy in general, it's clearly a nulltell at worst (and a towntell at best) for me.

3: Bullshit. I never said Kab is town, nor did I ever heavily suspect him. If I recall correctly, I said that I wasn't sure he was scum but he was a good lynch.

So, does anyone have any

real

reasons for voting me?

[MadCrawdad]

Okay, well then, did you read the part where I said that whether or not Spacecase is scum, he should be lynched today regardless? I don't think that going out on a limb and casting a single vote on Farside is very pro-town at this point.

Rigel, can you explain how this statement is not scummy... you know, about lynching regardless of whether folks believe someone is scum or not. I pretty much thought the object was to lynch scum.

If folks feel confident that a candidate is scum, by all means they should vote them.... just because you'd like to get on with the day is another story.

It puzzles me that both you and farside say that knowing SC's affiliation is critical in progressing the game, so that we can examine the wagon on him. Yet neither of you have even tried picking apart the wagon that was on Kabenon yesterday.

Let me ask you this. If everyone votes (or FoS's) SC at your urging, what are you going have to look at? Seriously. Who would be the most interesting if SC turns up scum? Who would be the most interesting if he turns up town?

[dahill1]

@MadCrawdad: The case on kab isn't great, in my opinion. I don't think he's scum. I think that there are scum on the wagon. If a kablynch is the play, I'd like to start preemptively looking at who's most likely to be scum in the event of his being town/scum.

This is where I would vote kab, except that it would put him at L-1

you say "i don't think he's scum" and then that you would vote for him but the only reason you're not is because he'd be at L-1.
also, it's not just your lack of attentiveness but you clearly had previously acknowledged that Cipher/Jesse had claimed. it just seemed weird to me that you would somehow forget later and accuse me of fishing

[The Fonz]

Okay, well then, did you read the part where I said that whether or not Spacecase is scum, he should be lynched today regardless? I don't think that going out on a limb and casting a single vote on Farside is very pro-town at this point.

Yeah, that's really scummy. Lynching for 'information' basically never works. You should always at least try to work out who's scum.

[LoudmouthLee]

Has the game landscape changed so much in the 5 months I was gone?

Me placing a vote on Farside (and game rationale for it), got the response of

Okay, well then, did you read the part where I said that whether or not Spacecase is scum, he should be lynched today regardless? I don't think that going out on a limb and casting a single vote on Farside is very pro-town at this point.

I think your overt protection of farside is noted. I think, my friends, we have a link.

Unvote: Farside, but FoS: Farside

--> Linkage between Rigel and Farside.

Vote: Rigel

[LaptopGun]

I'd like a response from Rigel.

LML: While others may find what you are saying fairly obvious, I am not sure what you're getting at with the "protection" thing. Yes, it's odd he'd say it practically out of the blue. Are you saying that's why it's scummy, that someone who's on the town would never react like that? Is the idea he'd say that to try to draw attention away from a scum buddy?

[LoudmouthLee]

I'd like a response from Rigel.

LML: While others may find what you are saying fairly obvious, I am not sure what you're getting at with the "protection" thing. Yes, it's odd he'd say it practically out of the blue. Are you saying that's why it's scummy, that someone who's on the town would never react like that? Is the idea he'd say that to try to draw attention away from a scum buddy?

Fairly simple.

Someone completely over-reacted when a different person had one vote levied on them. Overreaction is a keen way to find scum, since they are tenser (they have something to hide.)

I think Rigel is a completely viable look right now.

[Oman]

I'd like a response from Rigel.

LML: While others may find what you are saying fairly obvious, I am not sure what you're getting at with the "protection" thing. Yes, it's odd he'd say it practically out of the blue. Are you saying that's why it's scummy, that someone who's on the town would never react like that? Is the idea he'd say that to try to draw attention away from a scum buddy?

Fairly simple.

Someone completely over-reacted when a different person had one vote levied on them. Overreaction is a keen way to find scum, since they are tenser (they have something to hide.)

I think Rigel is a completely viable look right now.

NO HE ISN'T!

(Irony)

Anyway

Vote Rigel

and

FoS: Phate

for doing the same thing "I don't think he is scum, but lets lynch him anyway" = Scummy!

[The Fonz]

The implication of this last post is that you no longer believe spacecase is scum, yes?

[vollkan]

Okay, well then, did you read the part where I said that whether or not Spacecase is scum, he

should

be lynched today regardless? I don't think that going out on a limb and casting a single vote on Farside is very pro-town at this point.

I take 'should' as meaning - works towards win condition. If you disagree with me, substitute your own meaning.

Now, this is pretty simple: Town wins when all scum are snorting cocaine with Heath Ledger. (BEST WIN CONDITION EVER! )

Thus, explain to me how lynching SC regardless helps the town's win condition.

You previously stated:

In the end, I guess what I basically want to say is that we should, and likely need to lynch Spacecase today. Regardless of whether or not you believe he is scum. Spacecase's lynch will do two things. It will reveal his alignment, allowing us to further study his lynch in terms of that, and will progress us to Night, where Cypher can investigate someone else. Yes, it will also allow scum and the possible SK to act, but we've still got a lot of townies out there. I think we can make a potentially dangerous strategic play for one night.

Funnily enough, you can substitute anybody's name in that paragraph for SC and it makes just as much sense.

Here's one I prepared earlier:

"In the end, I guess what I basically want to say is that we should, and likely need to lynch Rigel today. Regardless of whether or not you believe he is scum. Rigel's lynch will do two things. It will reveal his alignment, allowing us to further study his lynch in terms of that, and will progress us to Night, where Cypher can investigate someone else. Yes, it will also allow scum and the possible SK to act, but we've still got a lot of townies out there. I think we can make a potentially dangerous strategic play for one night."

Would you agree with the above example? If not, why not?

(And you better have a good explanation, or you had better get your coke-spoon and cowboy hat ready)

[Oman]

The implication of this last post is that you no longer believe spacecase is scum, yes?

The implication of the last post IS that I no longer consider spacecase scum. However, if Rigel shows up town, I will probably have to re-consider. (although Rigelscum = spacecase town Rigeltown != spacescum or spacetown).

I'll have to revisit, but right now I think that Rigelscum trying to get Spacetown lynched is more likely than Rigeltown trying to get SpaceScum lynched (but not beacuse he's scummy).

In short: YARLY!

[Oman]

Now, this is pretty simple: Town wins when all scum are snorting cocaine with Heath Ledger. (BEST WIN CONDITION EVER! )

...Whoa? Too Soon?

[The Fonz]

To add to vollkan's last point, and my earlier one: Imagine what would happen in the scenario where a) you are town and b) Spacecase is lynched on the basis of your 'he needs to be lynched anyway so we can find out information about those on his lynch' theory and c) spacecase comes up town.

Player X: Well, I believe that player Y is scum. He put a lynch -2 vote on, and other players on the wagon strike me as believing it more.'
Player Y (actuallly is scum): Well, I believed that we had to lynch him anyway, to get information on his wagon. Rigel and player Z did too, why are you singling me out?

Player Y's argument here actually makes sense. If it acceptable to say 'well, we have to lynch him now, to find out his alignment' then you're pretty much implying that people who are on the wagon for other reasons are the most likely to be scum. This is just silly. It seems fairly obvious that people on the wagon because they've given reasons as to why they believe spacecase's behaviour is actually scummy are the most likely to be scum. But it seems to me that those players are precisely the players most likely to be engaged in actual scumhunting, so the players most likely to be town.

Which means that, if we're 'lynching for information' then the information it gives us is that the people who said we should lynch for information are the people most likely to be scum. Which means it's a pretty terrible move for a town player, and therefore a scumtell.

The 'cipher can get an additional investigation' argument is equally flawed. Cipher will be able to investigate whenever we lynch and whoever we lynch, provided we don't lynch him (and he's telling the truth, of course). There's no reason to curtail the day and reduce the amount of information we get (LOLZ, irony!) in order to do that.

All this said, having been the last onto the spacecase wagon (which is why I find it midly amusing that LTG suggested my actions today were due to 'being desperate to lynch spacecase'), I'm not planning on leaving it anytime soon. He still hasn't answered any of the case against him to my satisfaction. He hasn't claimed a role that makes me want to unvote him. He hasn't done any actual scumhunting, and the longer this goes on the more I feel like he WAS actually tactically lurking, waiting around in the hope that someone else did something really dumb or scummy and got him off the hook. Which is obviously not a tactic we should be encouraging.

@Oman: Your position appears to be, then, that Rigel's actions are particularly scummy, in terms of looking like scum trying to get a mislynch based on bad reasons, that it makes you think spacecase is now less likely to be scum? THat's not unreasonable, though see above.

[vollkan]

Now, this is pretty simple: Town wins when all scum are snorting cocaine with Heath Ledger. (BEST WIN CONDITION EVER! )

...Whoa? Too Soon?

Not for me. I was ridiculing Steve Irwin on the very afternoon of his death (...and nearly got beaten up for doing so)

I have a problem with people being all upset and grieving over celebrities dropping off whilst many people die every day in absolutely deplorable circumstances (poverty, starvation, etc.)

[Oman]

I was ridiculing Steve Irwin on the very afternoon of his death (...and nearly got beaten up for doing so)

Sames, my own mother was out for my blood.

[Spacecase]

Im sorry but I think this game is doomed to repeat itself.

[MadCrawdad]

Im sorry but I think this game is doomed to repeat itself.

Please clarify.... are you saying that you disagree with the candidates that people are discussing? Well then who do you like for scum? I think I recall you mentioning Shteven, but have seen nothing since. If you like someone for scum, dig thru some posts and make a case...

[Shteven]

Granted day 3 has been pretty long, but I'm glad we're actually looking at some new information recently with the push on rigel.

But by 'doomed to repeat itself' he probably means the last 'new C9' game which was abandoned.

[The Fonz]

I thought he meant yesterday's lynch, ie town was doomed to 'mislynch' himself in the same manner we did kab yesterday.

[MadCrawdad]

Granted day 3 has been pretty long, but I'm glad we're actually looking at some new information recently with the push on rigel.

But by 'doomed to repeat itself' he probably means the last 'new C9' game which was abandoned.

Shteven, this post above seems to contradict some of your previous posts

Here, below, you seem to be complaining that the day has gone on as long as it has. It looks like your urging people to 'hurry up and vote' for SC already...

People are very, very welcome to vote for someone other than spacecase. However, this day has been going on now for exactly 1 month. It started on feb 26th. I really think people should have some idea of who they think is scum and should be actively voting for someone by now. And yet, as of the last vote count, there are 6 people voting for anyone and 8 people not voting at all. This is what my complaint in post 601 was over. My post 595 was wondering if we could infer something about Spacecase's alignment from his wagon having slowed down, but in the end I don't really think it's possible. It becomes WIFOM fairly easily.

Now this next post REALLY contradicts what you recently said.... Above you mention that you're glad folks are looking at some new info on Rigel. Yet, here you apparently agree wholeheartedly with Rigel's argument for lynching SC... the argument that currently has Rigel on the hotseat.

Again you appear to be urging folks to 'hurry up and vote' for SC.

And finally...How can people read Rigel's last post and not be voting Spacecase? It's about that time...

Just for clarity here's Rigel's post you refer to when you urge folks to vote SC to end the day...

As for the Spacecase wagon in general, I think that the best statement regarding it thus far has been made by Farside:

No, boredom.

QFT.
I've read through. I stated my second option. I'm not sure what else you want me to say.

No one really stands out as scum and at this point I think knowing for sure Spacecase's alignment may help out for the next day. I'm sure this will be crap reasoning to some, but look at it this way. If spacecase is scum we should look at who held up the wagon and was trying to get someone else to look scummie. If spacecase is not scum we look at everyone who jumped on the wagon early and easily.

Some people may not like my idea, but really where have we really gotten on day 2 thus far that hasn't been said to death?

(Bolding is mine)

In all honesty, we're not going to get any guarantees at this point in the game. If there was another cop, they'd have counter-claimed by now. So all we have to go on alignment-wise is who dies and whatever Cypher says. So why are we dilly-dallying over who dies? Obviously, the object is to get rid of scum, but we're not at LoL yet. There are still 9 or 10 townies left in the game. If getting rid of one townie helps us to find one or more scum, we're still coming out ahead.

You agree with Rigel's argument to lynch SC regardless of thoughts on affiliation, yet you applaud the fact that some are going after him for that same argument. Odd isn't it?

How can you say 'You go, Rigel!' while at the same time saying 'Get Rigel, guys!'?

[-TinVision-]

Ninth Vote Count of the Day

Spacecase - 3 (Shteven, Rigel, TheFonz)

Phate - 3 (Cipher, LaptopGun, dahill1)

dahill1 - 2 (farside22, Phate )

Rigel - 2 (LoudmouthLee, Oman)

Not voting - 3 (Spacecase, vollkan, MadCrawdad)

With 13 alive, it is 7 to lynch.

I have decided to set a deadline for two weeks from today: 11 pm EST, April 20th. At that time, the person with the most votes will be lynched. In case of a tie, there will be no lynch.

[Shteven]

Let me answer some of the contradictions.

Here, below, you seem to be complaining that the day has gone on as long as it has. It looks like your urging people to 'hurry up and vote' for SC already...

Pay attention to the bold parts:

People are very, very

welcome to vote for someone other than spacecase

. However, this day has been going on now for exactly 1 month. It started on feb 26th. I really think people should have some idea of who they think is scum and

should be actively voting for someone by now

. And yet, as of the last vote count, there are 6 people voting for anyone and

8 people not voting at all

. This is what my complaint in post 601 was over. My post 595 was wondering if we could infer something about Spacecase's alignment from his wagon having slowed down, but in the end I don't really think it's possible. It becomes WIFOM fairly easily.

I think it was pretty clear I was talking about overall lack of activity, meaning people not voting for anyone, rather than people not voting for spacecase. I don't mind long days as long as we're doing more than standing around asking why spacecase hasn't been lynched yet.

Now this next post REALLY contradicts what you recently said.... Above you mention that you're glad folks are looking at some new info on Rigel. Yet, here you apparently agree wholeheartedly with Rigel's argument for lynching SC... the argument that currently has Rigel on the hotseat.

Probably too eager on my part - I was glad to see some support. The arguments against Rigel have merit. My statement was based on the oman/spacecase parts, and I should have looked more carefully at the rest of the post. His statements about dahill, LG, etc I don't agree with. More below.

Again you appear to be urging folks to 'hurry up and vote' for SC.

And finally...How can people read Rigel's last post and not be voting Spacecase? It's about that time...

Correct, but this would be the first time that was quoted in your post. Of course I've been voting him all of day 3 so I'm sure I've suggested him as a lynch target several times. Although to be critical of myself, I really haven't done much heavy lifting and have been cheerleading his lynch more than anything. I think we may find better targets as of late.

You then attribute the argument for getting information out of lynching spacecase-town to Rigel. That's false, it was suggested by farside. Rigel mentioned it was her's, and it was in a quote block container her name. It was also only a small portion of rigel's rather largepost 704. It isn't a good point, and I agree with Fonz's responses (now we're coming full circle ) that information is not worth killing townies.

I'll give you a complete rundown on his post 704. See his post for his comments, I'm not going to quote it all. When I said the post was good I was just welcoming support on pushing spacecase, I did not mean to support the rest of the thoughts on other players. I'll respond to all of his sections because most of them I don't like, other than Oman's.

FOS's oman: Agreed. I don't like the noncommittal stance Oman seems to be taking here.

Spacecase informational lynch: Disagree. I'd rather keep as many of those townies alive as possible. I voted spacecase because of his quick flip on day 2 and the attempted hammer. I recently finished a newbie game in which the same thing happened on day 1 and was done by scum. That's only one case, but I think it's useful information.

Phate wagon: I don't mind the case on phate - it hasn't convinced me yet but I don't think it's baseless either. I've been tempted to switch from time to time because he seems to have a more consistent pattern, where as spacecase is mainly 1 tell and then his inability to explain it. And I've been burned lynching people over one tell a few times.

LG: I do trust him. There's a chance of godfather/SK but he's been cleared of 50% (75?%*) of the scum roles so I'm putting him on the back burner for now. We can look at him later nights. Think about it this way. Let's say he's the godfather. What happens tonight? Don't you think the SK would just LOVE to kill the godfather? I think that would be an excellent move. What if LG's the SK? Mafia might love to get rid of him? I don't think he's an issue for the town today. Will reconsider if he lives to end game.

*Also, it should be noted that the SK role PM did not say anything about being investigation immune. I think the SK would show up as guilty, unless SK's are by definition immune.

Switching to Dahill: Also a bad idea. Being unhelpful isn't enough to justify a lynch alone.
----------------

I may reconsider sticking to spacecase, it does not seem very productive anymore. I haven't yet made up my mind about where my vote belongs though - coming soon.

[Shteven]

Fonz, yep you're right I could turn up Godfather or Serial Killer. I am neither. I doubt I need to say this, but I am not mafia either. I am 100% vanillia townie. You've spent the last day impeaching my credibility. Did you speak up when I was questioning cipher's/Jess's credibility? I don't believe so. I understand you want a lynch of someone real bad, but you might want to chill out as we could just as easily lynch a townie. And you wouldn't want that, would you?

I just wanted to find this largely for myself because it was going through my head that LTG could be GF or SK while remaining a real innocent result, and I wanted to know where from. Since I checked the role PM's and they didn't mention it. This should explain why I gave both the 50% and 75% figures above.

Mod:

Is the SK investigation immune?

[MadCrawdad]

You then attribute the argument for getting information out of lynching spacecase-town to Rigel. That's false, it was suggested by farside. Rigel mentioned it was her's, and it was in a quote block container her name. It was also only a small portion of rigel's rather largepost 704. It isn't a good point, and I agree with Fonz's responses (now we're coming full circle ) that information is not worth killing townies.

I'll give you a complete rundown on his post 704. See his post for his comments, I'm not going to quote it all. When I said the post was good I was just welcoming support on pushing spacecase, I did not mean to support the rest of the thoughts on other players. I'll respond to all of his sections because most of them I don't like, other than Oman's.

FOS's oman: Agreed. I don't like the noncommittal stance Oman seems to be taking here.

Spacecase informational lynch: Disagree. I'd rather keep as many of those townies alive as possible. I voted spacecase because of his quick flip on day 2 and the attempted hammer. I recently finished a newbie game in which the same thing happened on day 1 and was done by scum. That's only one case, but I think it's useful information.

Whether you want to attribute Rigel's argument to Rigel or Farside is irrelevant. Rigel's main point was that SC should be lynched regardless of affiliation...

He said this...

In all honesty, we're not going to get any guarantees at this point in the game. If there was another cop, they'd have counter-claimed by now. So all we have to go on alignment-wise is who dies and whatever Cypher says. So why are we dilly-dallying over who dies? Obviously, the object is to get rid of scum, but we're not at LoL yet. There are still 9 or 10 townies left in the game. If getting rid of one townie helps us to find one or more scum, we're still coming out ahead.

and this...

In the end, I guess what I basically want to say is that we should, and likely need to lynch Spacecase today. Regardless of whether or not you believe he is scum. Spacecase's lynch will do two things. It will reveal his alignment, allowing us to further study his lynch in terms of that, and will progress us to Night, where Cypher can investigate someone else. Yes, it will also allow scum and the possible SK to act, but we've still got a lot of townies out there. I think we can make a potentially dangerous strategic play for one night.

then you said this...

And finally...How can people read Rigel's last post and not be voting Spacecase? It's about that time...

You didn't say 'it was a good post,' as you claim above. You said 'vote Spacecase,' seemingly agreeing with Rigel's only point for lynching SC in that particular post. Keep in mind that you weren't looking to 'pressure' Spacecase, as you say in the first quote above. It sure looked, to me, like you wanted everyone to vote SC to end the day.

FoS: Shteven