Open 53: Near-Vanilla - Game over!

[neko2086]

Seeing as how we're on D3 and haven't caught any scum, any reasoning behind your vote would be much appreciated. Looking back, I didn't really see anything indicating that you were leaning in that direction, so I'm assuming it has something to do with recent events.

Also, did you not know you were going to be gone during deadline?

K7, I'd still like an answer to my previous question: can you explain why klebian's reasons for voting you are "bull shit"?

I think that's a pretty good start for today.

[Shanba]

Seeing as how we're on D3 and haven't caught any scum, any reasoning behind your vote would be much appreciated. Looking back, I didn't really see anything indicating that you were leaning in that direction, so I'm assuming it has something to do with recent events.

I don't believe you looked very hard then. his actions on the Crub wagon only reinforced my belief.

Also, did you not know you were going to be gone during deadline?

No. It was not deliberate, but I found myself avoiding mafiascum. You can check general discussion - I made a thread about how I was bored of mafia, and I hadn't posted anywhere in a while I was replaced in two games and modkilled in another for inactivity.

I think that's a pretty good start for today.

Are you leaning towards me or Killa seven then?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

In shanba's defense, although he's wrong about me, he was replaced in another game I was in. So I don't find his lurking particularly suspicious. That said, I don't know about this game. My top suspect was lynched, and my second-top suspect was nked. I've sort of pretty much sucked this game.

Vote: skitzer.

I'd like your suspects as soon as possible.

[skitzer]

I'm sorry, this game has sort of fallen out of my attention. I've been paying attention, but I haven't really been making posts. I'll try to reread and post later, I've had an immensley busy week.

[killa seven]

Seeing as how we're on D3 and haven't caught any scum, any reasoning behind your vote would be much appreciated. Looking back, I didn't really see anything indicating that you were leaning in that direction, so I'm assuming it has something to do with recent events.

Also, did you not know you were going to be gone during deadline?

K7, I'd still like an answer to my previous question: can you explain why klebian's reasons for voting you are "bull shit"?

I think that's a pretty good start for today.

klebian allways singles me out in every game i play with him, his lurking in this game is is noticable, he says "im kinda waiting for k7" i ask him what hes waiting for he ignores me then i post a vote on tsn instead of crub and he all the sudden votes me, it seems kinda suspicious he would all the sudden try and vote me right before the deadline. i wasnt just "randomly hopping on a wagon" i really thought j dodge was scum and when it came down close 2 the deadline and the votes were so close i decided 2 pick tsn because he looked scummy 2 me the way him and jdodge were attacking crub. now that jdodge turned up town, i dont know about it anymore.

[skitzer]

OK, I would like to mention two people in this game:

TheSweatpantsNinja

The first thing I noticed was that he has been very anti-lurker the entire game. Now, I don't want to say that lurkers are good, but I think it truly depends on the setup. In an open setup, this is easily seen. Lurkers are not good for the town in which the setup includes a heavy number of power roles, and it appears we only have one power role remaining. Still, lurkers can be bad, as they are not helping the town.

Then, I noticed, at one point, TSN voted crub, which I totally didn't see any reasoning behind, seeing as I had reread Crub right before TSN, and I saw crub as a distinctly town player.

killa seven

I don't believe in metas. If you were to take a meta of killa seven, you might be tempted to vote him, but I have seen that there is no relation. What irks me a minor bit is that he has played more to aid the town in this game, which maybe just experience showing, but it's something I want to keep my eye on.

[klebian]

Seeing as how we're on D3 and haven't caught any scum, any reasoning behind your vote would be much appreciated. Looking back, I didn't really see anything indicating that you were leaning in that direction, so I'm assuming it has something to do with recent events.

Also, did you not know you were going to be gone during deadline?

K7, I'd still like an answer to my previous question: can you explain why klebian's reasons for voting you are "bull shit"?

I think that's a pretty good start for today.

klebian allways singles me out in every game i play with him, his lurking in this game is is noticable, he says "im kinda waiting for k7" i ask him what hes waiting for he ignores me then i post a vote on tsn instead of crub and he all the sudden votes me, it seems kinda suspicious he would all the sudden try and vote me right before the deadline. i wasnt just "randomly hopping on a wagon" i really thought j dodge was scum and when it came down close 2 the deadline and the votes were so close i decided 2 pick tsn because he looked scummy 2 me the way him and jdodge were attacking crub. now that jdodge turned up town, i dont know about it anymore.

we've played in 2 games together. You were scum in the last one. This isn't supporting my vote on you but rather, your meta is useless. K7, I addressed that the post after I voted you.

[neko2086]

Shanba, i was looking back at your most recent posts in which your attention was turned more toward Crub. I guess what I'm really asking is if your vote pertains mostly to your previous concerns of TSN, or is there anything new that bothers you about him.

Also, I haven't necessarily narrowed down my suspicions to you and K7, but if it came down between you two, it would be K7 at the moment. I'm having a hard time believing he's doing any scum-hunting.

What irks me a minor bit is that he has played more to aid the town in this game

Skitzer, is this a typo, or, what do you mean here?

[Justin Playfair]

Actually, your saying that put me in a catch 22. If I voted you, lo and behold, you were right so I must be scum. If I didn't vote you, well, it was because I 'knew' that I would be 'outed as scum' if I did.

it doesn't make me scum but it puts me in a difficult situation
basically i'm saying such a 'prediction' was completely unnecessary and put double the meaning on how I voted

Klebian,

The above two posts seem defensive in a way that doesn’t comfortably correspond to town play. If you truly thought Crub was scum his statement about you shouldn’t have bothered you. You would have voted him in the honest belief that he was scum and his statement would have been shown to be scummy nonsense. If you thought another person was most worthy of your vote you would have voted that other person, perhaps pointing out to Crub that your vote wasn’t going on him because he wasn’t quite number one on your list.

These posts have bothered me since I first read them, but I couldn’t quite put my finger on why until now.

If I voted you, lo and behold, you were right so I must be scum.

Well, not if Crub turned out to be scum. And lynching scum, would, theoretically, be what you would be doing with your vote. I mean, there’s no comment about what you feel about Crub’s alignment in either of these. No “and then if you did turn out to be town…”, nothing about “I have made my current feelings about your alignment clear”, which you had when you voted Killa 7. I mean you clearly analyzed your possible strategies for dealing with what Crub had said, but scum hunting didn’t seem to play any part in your calculations.

Thank you for your response.

[Justin Playfair]

Skitzer,

Then, I noticed, at one point, TSN voted crub, which I totally didn't see any reasoning behind, seeing as I had reread Crub right before TSN, and I saw crub as a distinctly town player.

Please provide your reasons for seeing Crub as a distinctly town player. Thank you.


Neko2086,

I'll vote: TSN for now. I'm really having a hard time believing that Crub is scum, simply because I don't see how his play could help him as scum. I don't think it helps much as town either, except for the reactions he got from TSN and maybe klebian, though the case against him isn't very solid.

I'd honestly rather lynch killa seven, for reasons I think are pretty clear (if not, just ask). If there is support there, I'll switch, unless he posts soon with content that is actually helpful and answers my questions.

We have a few days, so there is still time to form a different bandwagon.

Now here’s the thing. At this point you seem to be stating rather clearly that you would prefer to lynch TSpN over Crub.

But you do point out you would rather lynch Killa 7 if the opportunity arises.

At this point there is one vote, that of RossWilliam, on Killa 7. And TSpN is in the hot seat for a lynching.

Later, one more vote, that of Klebian, is cast on Killa 7. TSpN is still in the hot seat. Then, with a day until deadline, you switch your vote to Killa 7.

This puts Crub in the hot seat, not Killa 7.

You leave it there, no more votes are cast on Killa 7, and Crub swings. Now I left my vote on TSpN because he was who I thought was most likely scum, but if he wasn’t going to hang my next preference was Crub, both because his actions gave me real doubt about his alignment and because a lynch of a town Crub seemed more likely to give us information than a lynch of a town Killa 7.

So why with deadline coming did you leave your vote with Killa 7, though it brought about a lynch of Crub? Because unless something had changed your mind in the waning hours of the day you had suggested you would prefer a lynch of TSpN over Crub.

[neko2086]

Justin, I thought I made a good enough case to grab one more vote for K7, who I would rather have had lynched than Crub or TSN, and with over a day left, I thought one of the two non-voters might jump on. Unfortunately, they didn't do anything. You're right though, I could have jumped back onto the TSN wagon. I'm not sure I was around in time though.

Question for you: What information do you think we've gained from Crub's lynch? I'm assuming by your first post that you now suspect klebian, but to what extent?

Korlash, are you around at all? It'd be nice to hear from you.

[Korlash]

I'm here. My work schedual keeps changing and all my free time is put into sleeping. my time on MS is limited so I've been putting more time into games that are in endgame then in those that still have a bit to go. My bad... >< bad Korlash... i'll try to catch up here on my net day off.. if I ever get one... ;_;

[skitzer]

neko - I meant that usually, killa isn't very helpful, but this time he is being somewhat helpful, which is odd.

Justin - he hasn't really done anything to harm the town, It just seems like he's not scum.

[Justin Playfair]

Nek02086,

About the events surrounding the Crub lynch there is one thing which I will not discuss at this time. However, there is no doubt that the totality of Klebian’s actions during the end of yesterday, from his moving to the opening you had provided for a late bandwagon on Killa Seven, to his curious reaction to Crub’s statement about him, make me more suspicious of Klebian. My suspicions of Skitzer have also been piqued, by his post-lynch certainty that Crub was town and his lack of a day two vote to express this certainty, and perhaps most especially his expressed in thread opinions of Crub throughout this period:

I'm not sure I see the big point on Crub. He may have been analysing something that needed this retrospect. If he's trying to help the game, let it be.

Justin: I don't really have an opinion on Crub right now. But if he's trying to help the town, which yes, was wrongly worded, then it would be ok. I think it would help if Crub could explain his true intentions.

neko: I feel Crub's tunnel-vision did not help the game, which did give a somewhat reasonable reason for Korlash's vote, but I don't get why you asked someone to answer a question after another. Explain.

Well if he's "recuperated" from his tunnel-vision, then I don't see it as much more then something to note. The "oh ok" was because his remark concerning curbs.

The above was in a response to a question from Neko2086, trying to ascertain what you actually thought of Crub.

On what? I'm confused. I guess I didn't read it correctly. For some reason I thought Crub asked a question, and Korlash voted him for asking the question, and thats why I found Crub suspicious...I had the wrong people.

And this was Skitzer’s final pre-lynch thought on Crub, in response to me asking him specifically what caused him to go from declaring that Crub was trying to help the game to refusing to defend that opinion and decrying Crub’s tunnel vision.

The reason my interest hasn’t been more than piqued by the above is the quite real possibility that Skitzer was, in fact…confused. But I still don’t like his postmortem certainty that…

I had reread Crub right before TSN, and I saw crub as a distinctly town player.

Which after a single question became…

Justin - he hasn't really done anything to harm the town, It just seems like he's not scum.

Which is oddly lacking in detail for someone who has recently done a reread.

Finally, although it would be an overstatement to say it made me more suspicious of you, your signaling that you would be happy to switch votes rather late in the day, when a one or two vote swing which could be powered easily by scum could (and did) make a difference, and not being conscious enough of this to monitor what the results were, make me less certain than I was before that you are town. It’s a pretty small thing, and I could see myself doing it, but I also can’t ignore it.

[neko2086]

Fair enough, Justin.

Skitzer, what exactly, do you think K7 has contributed, exactly? How has he been helpful?

Um, where is RW?

[Hjallti]

prodding RossWilliam...

fast votecount: (with 9 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch before deadline)

TheSweatpantsNinja

: 1 (shanba)

skitzer

: 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)

[skitzer]

Well, not to be rude, but usually k7 doesn't scum hunt very much, but I do see him attempting it every once in a while. That's what makes it strange.

[Hjallti]

I will prod everyone who didn't play since monday, tomorrow.

I will start searching replacement for RossWilliam now.

[Shanba]

Shanba, i was looking back at your most recent posts in which your attention was turned more toward Crub. I guess what I'm really asking is if your vote pertains mostly to your previous concerns of TSN, or is there anything new that bothers you about him.

I could be wrong, given I'm not checking my posts before I write this, but I'm fairly sure I was just digging at Crub for info. Also: "his actions on the Crub wagon only reinforced my belief." (apologies for capitalisation).

Although...

Unvote: Thesweatpantsninja

.

Page 24 in isolation is what I was referring to specifically. He votes somewhat out of the blue, but just after another vote - waiting for authority/support for a switch. I still think it's somewhat scummy, after reading only TSN's posts in isolation, but not as scummy - he's been building up to it. The reason I'm unvoting, though, is he did seem remarkably patient with Crub for a scum looking for an opportunity to jump on.

[neko2086]

So Skitzer, I just want to make sure I'm understanding you right...
K7 has been scumhunting more than he usually does, and that makes him scummy?

Also, you still haven't shown exactly what he's done to be helpful. You're being very vague. I don't really see any evidence of him doing any scumhunting.

Shanba, I'm not sure I'd call TSN's actions patient. He was voting JDodge following the events of D1, then JDodge votes Crub and TSN follows suit, keeping his vote there for the remainder of the day. I don't see any reason to think it wouldn't be possible for him to be scum looking for an easy switch to a more popular wagon.
If you don't think TSN is scum, though, who would be your next suspect?

[skitzer]

I'm sorry, neko, but to put it bluntly, k7 has just been acting strange. He's not like himself in this game.

[Korlash]

Ok After work tongiht I'll be puting some time into this game (Unless somethign drastic happens like armageddon or like I blindly walk into an archery range...) so no lynching me until then

[klebian]

will get to this game soon, sorry for the lack of posting

[Justin Playfair]

Vote: Korlash

You've posted more than thirty times in other games in the last week, including multiple posts in games that are on day two and day one. So this statement is…ummm…not so true:

I'm here. My work schedual keeps changing and all my free time is put into sleeping. my time on MS is limited so I've been putting more time into games that are in endgame then in those that still have a bit to go.

You posted in your day two game on both the 12th and 14th. The post above was made on the 13th.

So you voted Crub, later said you weren’t very suspicious of Crub but only voted him to get him to talk, left your vote on him to lynch without any other substantive comment, and are currently posting heavily in multiple other games while showing up here only just enough to keep yourself going.

Now maybe you’re just not feeling this game. It happens to everybody sometimes. But you seem to be not feeling this game in a way that’s a tad too convenient for my taste.

Hope to hear from you soon.

[klebian]

I will first respond to this

Klebian,

The above two posts seem defensive in a way that doesn’t comfortably correspond to town play. If you truly thought Crub was scum his statement about you shouldn’t have bothered you. You would have voted him in the honest belief that he was scum and his statement would have been shown to be scummy nonsense. If you thought another person was most worthy of your vote you would have voted that other person, perhaps pointing out to Crub that your vote wasn’t going on him because he wasn’t quite number one on your list.

These posts have bothered me since I first read them, but I couldn’t quite put my finger on why until now.

If I voted you, lo and behold, you were right so I must be scum.

Well, not if Crub turned out to be scum. And lynching scum, would, theoretically, be what you would be doing with your vote. I mean, there’s no comment about what you feel about Crub’s alignment in either of these. No “and then if you did turn out to be town…”, nothing about “I have made my current feelings about your alignment clear”, which you had when you voted Killa 7. I mean you clearly analyzed your possible strategies for dealing with what Crub had said, but scum hunting didn’t seem to play any part in your calculations.

Thank you for your response.

Well crub had made that prediction, obviously before I had placed a vote. I made my responses to that after I had placed my vote on k7. Your first paragraph rings true for the most part- I

did

place a vote on someone else, and crub had not made any reference to his prediction. So it would seem that my defenses to his prediction are a bit nonsensical, as your second paragraph points out. However, I mainly made those responses because I felt that crub's response to neko's comment on the prediction was not really accurate. He claimed that he said that to stop me from voting him; I was trying to show that it went further than that, it put me in a

potential

(in hindsight, I should have made this word, potential, clear) catch-22 because if I had eventually followed up with a vote on him, and assuming he had either not been lynched, or lynched and turned up not scum (the latter of which did end up happening, as we know), his prediction would have turned up true and I would have been essentially ensnared in the trap he had set for me, knowing he was a townie, even if my logic on a crub vote was rational.

Because that looks like a jumble, I'll try to summarize a little better. I felt that crub was trapping me (and as he said, pre-empting a vote) by making that statement, and while my eventual vote essentially ignored it, I didn't like his comment on the use of that statement because I felt that he was trivializing the situation such a comment would have put me in had I voted crub and he came up town. There was really no benefit to the town as a whole (though there may have been some benefit in terms of survival to crub himself) in making that statement, and it would have passed by as useless if he had not sarcastically (or essentially sarcastically) responded to a reasonable qualm of neko's regarding that prediction.