Cultafia: Game over

[springlullaby]

If you care to examine my last post, I answered to your points already even if it wasn't addressed at you Yosarian2. But I shall answer again since you insist that not directly replying to you is scummy. I'll just wait for the answers of everyone my query apply to first.

[armlx]

I was unimpressed with your responses.

[Hjallti]

I think Yosarian2 made good points and don't see crap in his logic. The fact that your defense is a general remark about it being crap and a crap answer about every scum player plays alike I don't think I have seen a good enough answer to convince me Yosarian2 is wrong.

Could you answer this hypothetical question? I want to check if I understand your point correctly.

Would you play differently in a game where you are Godfather and in a game where you are just a goon? Would it be good or bad for a mafia-team if goon played differently?
What if that Godfather can kill one more player than a mafia without godfather, would that make a difference?

[curiouskarmadog]

I was unimpressed with your responses.

QFT!!!

[vollkan]

Everyone who think I am a cult leader, please state clearly why now.

I think you are scummy, and I see the sense in the rationalisation that your play is consistent with that of a CL. I can see you as non-CL scum, however.

[Hjallti]

EBWOP: my questions are directed to springlullaby, in case you are wondering...

[springlullaby]

I think Yosarian2 made good points and don't see crap in his logic. The fact that your defense is a general remark about it being crap and a crap answer about every scum player plays alike I don't think I have seen a good enough answer to convince me Yosarian2 is wrong.

Could you answer this hypothetical question? I want to check if I understand your point correctly.

Would you play differently in a game where you are Godfather and in a game where you are just a goon? Would it be good or bad for a mafia-team if goon played differently?
What if that Godfather can kill one more player than a mafia without godfather, would that make a difference?

Just to clarify, do you think that Yosarian proposed idea for town to never claim is a good idea? You realize that that idea was what I called crap upon, right?

And what do you think Yosarian is 'right' about? I pointed out that the argument armlx used, and which Yosarian echoed later, to persuade town that I was

a cult leader

was WIFOM and as such an invalid one to be convinced that I was a cult leader, and that using this argument was scummy in itself. How do you expect me to defend from a WIFOM argument in the first place?

Beside I did not at any time play to stay unnoticed, and I believe that if you care to examine my play, you'll reach that conclusion as well.

As for you question, I don't see how it relates in any way to the current game, but I can answer you with this: WIFOM is WIFOM for a reason.

I'd like Nabokov amongst other to answer my query.

[Norinel]

Vote Count 16

springlullaby [6] (NabakovNabakov, curiouskarmadog, armlx, vikingfan, stark, Hjallti)
Occult [4] (the silent speaker, mnowax, Yosarian2, aioqwe)
mnowax [2] (Greggo, Blazerunner)
Yosarian2 [1] (springlullaby)
vikingfan [1] (Skruffs)

Not Voting [2]: Occult, vollkan

8 to lynch

[vikingfan]

TSS: post 382, the post, as I read it, linked 4 people all together, which I read as assuming that they were all together, especially since comments were made about how the cultists were sticking together. I'm not seeing how it's 'clear' to you that they were all allied against the town. Especially since Skruffs said that more than one of us was defending and that we were sticking together. What am I missing?

CKD, there are several things that make me suspicious of SL: A) general lurking early on until called on to post and B) questioning the whole claiming strategy (which I agree with Yos on). So I'm content to leave my vote right where it is.

[armlx]

It's not really WIFOM, its a valid analysis of the scenario. What you are doing is the equivalent of saying that the statement that "Scum like to rush wagons" is WIFOM because smart scum will avoid this.

Like I said, the perfect scum looks perfectly townie. However, scum are human and make mistakes.

[Hjallti]

I am clearly agreeing that claiming for not steadfast townie power roles is even worse than in ordinary mafia, as a kill would result in loss of one townie as a recruitment (which is after that claim certainly succesful (I mean cult is certain that the player is recruitable)) is an overall loss of two: one townie less, one cultist more. Therefor a powerrole claim of a townie is a double loss. this is clearly no crap to me.

I hate it when people use the WIFOM is bad argument the way SL does in her reply. WIFOM makes a lot of arguments shady or impossible, but that is not a general fact: it depends on how Wifom triggers. If you say 'i can use wifom here so it is crap' than that statement is crap itself. I am convinced that a cult leader and a cult recruit will and should play with another angle. A cult leader dying is worse for the cult than a mafia godfather dying for a mafia, and a cult recruit dying is much less bad than a goon dying for mafia. That is why I asked you that question indirectly.

[Yosarian2]

Just to clarify, do you think that Yosarian proposed idea for town to never claim is a good idea? You realize that that idea was what I called crap upon, right?

Well, pro-town roles claiming without a bloody good reason for it is almost always bad for us in this game; they'll probably either get recruited or killed. I'm not sure why you disagree with that.

And what do you think Yosarian is 'right' about? I pointed out that the argument armlx used, and which Yosarian echoed later, to persuade town that I was

a cult leader

was WIFOM and as such an invalid one to be convinced that I was a cult leader, and that using this argument was scummy in itself. How do you expect me to defend from a WIFOM argument in the first place?

WIFOM is not a wand you can wave to make valid arguments against you that you don't like go away.

Beside I did not at any time play to stay unnoticed, and I believe that if you care to examine my play, you'll reach that conclusion as well.

I have examined your play; you've said very little this game, and most of what you have done dosn't make sense to me.

[the silent speaker]

VF: I read his comment as clearly expressing frustration that more people than could be allied with each other seemed to be mutually linked, and throwing out a hypothesis to explain it away: multiple cults sticking together.

[vikingfan]

but how can that be so, TSS? The cults doesn't know who each other are any more than the town does. I don't see how his comment holds water.

[springlullaby]

Just to clarify, do you think that Yosarian proposed idea for town

to never claim

is a good idea? You realize that that idea was what I called crap upon, right?

Well, pro-town roles claiming

without a bloody good reason

for it is almost always bad for us in this game; they'll probably either get recruited or killed. I'm not sure why you disagree with that.

Are you deliberately misreading me?

I never said 'town claiming without a bloody good reason' was a good idea. In fact, I argued against it when I said that your reaction to mnowax claim didn't feel right to me. Wouldn't you say that it is quite queer for someone who cried so loudly that town shouldn't claim to not express any concern over the fact that mnowax claimed under very little pressure?

I'm liking skruffs' suspicions because the plan for not claiming didn't make any sense to begin with. Of course town should be cautious about claiming because the nature of the game, but if one is gonna be lynched anyway, a last attempt to put town off a wrong tract is only sensible, which isn't to say that town is under any obligation to believe a claim.

Tell me, do you disagree with what I quoted?

Then there is this little treasure of nonsense from armlx.

Yosarian, I'm not getting why claiming is bad, please re-explain it for me.

Because those that claim pro-town recruitable roles, especially power roles that don't harm the SK such as the cop, create massive WIFOMs

as instead of dying and being death confirmed, they can become scum.

Non-recruitable roles claiming simply lowers the target pool for the cult(s) to hit recruitables.

I'm pretty sure death via lynch is still < potential cult recruitment, but claiming outside of that scenario is not helping the town.

Assuming that blues would only claim under direct threat of being lynched, tell me Yosarian, do you agree with this as well?

Note here that I addressed the question to you specifically, and that you did not object to what armlx said.

As for the WIFOM, I suppose arguing against WIFOM with WIFOM wasn't a good idea, but there is little one can say against "you lurk, it is what a cult leader would do, lynch".

Moreover, what I pointed out was that the particular WIFOM armlx used was a very weak one because saying that my saying that 'cult leaders would want to appears as pro-town as possible' is equivalently plausible.

Now let's examine armlx reason to vote me.

1)Opposition to methodical scum hunting methods, 2)lurking, 3)OMGUSing those who attack you for this.

I took the liberty of numerating your reasons.
1)BS, I have nothing against "methodical scum hunting methods". Please, read the posts in which I questioned volkan on why he felt he need to post that little list of his .
2) See above. Plus, I personally consider lurking as a null tell, which will be proven true in this case.
3) See Yosarian's post about OMGUS. You also imply that I OMGUS'ed several persons who attacked me; evidences please.

In conclusion, you guys are wasting your votes on me. Beside, the case against me is poor: all that it is objectively based upon is the assumption that I would lurk if I were cult leader.

I think Yosarian and armlx show up as linked thorough the day, armlx is in fact the scummiest of the two, but armlx' way of following Yosarian like a puppy and Yosarian not bothering to address his questionable posts makes me think Yosarian is possibly a cult leader with armlx as a cultee.

[armlx]

3)
The OMGUS mainly falls on me. I like how you use semantics to try and make me find several examples.

And read what Yos post about OMGUS, this one?

vote:Blazerunner

. OMGUSing is bad.

2)

You have proven nothing about lurking, and in no way is lurking while posting elsewhere a null tell, except maybe in AITP.

1)

You voting vollkan instead of just questioning his method shows me you are trying to deter its existence instead of just pondering the details.



Also, way to misinterpret my other post. That was comparing to the scenario to a normal game, where getting gunned down by scum = death confirmed, and in this game instead of that they get cult recruited.

[aioqwe]

The more this continues the more inclined I am to believe armlx/yos. Personally I wouldn't call it mindless puppy following. That's more like people who just pop in to post QFT! or whatever.

[Hjallti]

I am not really consider my question to springlullaby about whether different kinds of scum would play differently answered....

[NabakovNabakov]

SL: By the time I had voted you for lurking among other things, you had posted fewer sentences than days you had been in this game (give or take a few fragments), and most of them were even less helpful than the above statistic would seem to indicate. You said nothing of any significance until Blaze's claim, whereupon you supported his lynch for vague and opportunistic reasons. Since then, the only thing that has really drawn content from you have been attacks, which is the classic sign of a lurker. Also, the discussions you have built up around the relative merits of claims, the validity of WIFOM, and the scumminess of OMGUS belong in MD; not here and are only serving as straw dogs.

@Yos: Your vote is still on Occult.

[Yosarian2]

Are you deliberately misreading me?

I never said 'town claiming without a bloody good reason' was a good idea.

Uh, then why are you attacking me? I did say that there are a few situations where a pro-town person might want to claim; a pro-town person with a power role might want to claim if he's about to get lynched and he thinks claiming truthfully will prevent that, or there might be (rare) situations where a pro-town power role has enough information to make a claim worthwhile. All I did was point out the the risks of any pro-town role claiming are much higher then normal in this game, that vanillia townies should NEVER claim (they shouldn't even claim in a normal game, but it's esepcally bad in this game), and that people shouldn't role claim unless they absolutly have to.

All I've done is offer good, pro-town stratagy advice, you haven't been able to give a reason why you think by advice is anti-town, but yet you seem to be trying to use it as an excuse to attack me, for reasons I don't entierly understand. Your wierdness on this issue is one of the reasons you look really scummy.

In fact, I argued against it when I said that your reaction to mnowax claim didn't feel right to me. Wouldn't you say that it is quite queer for someone who cried so loudly that town shouldn't claim to not express any concern over the fact that mnowax claimed under very little pressure?

Oh, I hate mnowax's play. Him claiming was a pretty serious error, and his earlier behavior about blaze and all that was perhaps even worse. Nonetheless, I think he's probably telling the truth, and I think he'll probably be able to prove tonight that he's telling the truth by killing Blaze; I'm not interested in trying to attack someone I think most likely is an honest pro-town vig, no matter what play errors he's made.

If you've got a rational reason to think Mnowax is lying scum, I'd like to hear it, but first you've got to explain how anything about Mnowax's play today would make any logical sense as a scum play on his part.

I'm liking skruffs' suspicions because the plan for not claiming didn't make any sense to begin with. Of course town should be cautious about claiming because the nature of the game, but if one is gonna be lynched anyway, a last attempt to put town off a wrong tract is only sensible, which isn't to say that town is under any obligation to believe a claim.

Uh...what? I SAID THAT if you have a power role, and if you think claiming your power role will prevent a claim, then you SHOULD claim, since while a power role claiming is bad it's not quite as bad as mislynching a power role. I made that quite clear earlier in the game, so I'm not sure where you're getting this strange idea that I was arguing no one should ever claim under any circumstances.

Then there is this little treasure of nonsense from armlx.

Yosarian, I'm not getting why claiming is bad, please re-explain it for me.

Because those that claim pro-town recruitable roles, especially power roles that don't harm the SK such as the cop, create massive WIFOMs

as instead of dying and being death confirmed, they can become scum.

Non-recruitable roles claiming simply lowers the target pool for the cult(s) to hit recruitables.

I'm pretty sure death via lynch is still < potential cult recruitment, but claiming outside of that scenario is not helping the town.

Assuming that blues would only claim under direct threat of being lynched, tell me Yosarian, do you agree with this as well?

Uh, what? In that very thing you quote, he specifically said that it's better to claim and risk potential cult recruitement then to get lynched, which seems to be the exact point you're trying to argue here. Are you delibratly misinterpreting everything everyone says here?

As for the WIFOM, I suppose arguing against WIFOM with WIFOM wasn't a good idea, but there is little one can say against "you lurk, it is what a cult leader would do, lynch".

My argument was never WIFOM in any real sense. Your defense was compeltly WIFOM.

Moreover, what I pointed out was that the particular WIFOM armlx used was a very weak one because saying that my saying that 'cult leaders would want to appears as pro-town as possible' is equivalently plausible.

No, it's not.

If you do a scummy act, you can't say "But scum wouldn't want to look scummy, they would want to look pro-town, so why would a scum act scummy?" The fact is, scum do act scummy dispite the fact that doing so might make them look less pro-town, because acting scummy means to act in a way that helps the scum win, if they get away with it.

Flying under the radar is a perfect example. It's a great scumtell, because it's something scum tend to do, because it's one of those things that, IF THE SCUM GET AWAY WITH IT, helps them win. So the town's job is to not let the scum get away with it. And that's even more true of a cult recruiter, who's primary goal during day 1 is to survive at least a few days in order to help their cult grow; they don't really care very much what happens during the day, so long as they don't die, so they have an extremly strong incentive to try and fly under the radar. Yes, that's partly balanced out by the fact that smart townies might be on the lookout for scum trying to fly under the radar, but only partly.

And your argument abotu me an Armlx is silly. "X and Y agree on some stuff, therefore they're probably scum together" is an inherently bad argument, at least until you know the alignment of one of those two people. I tend to think that the most likely explination is that Armlx agrees with me on some stuff because I'm making sense, because you're not, and because you just look scummy, which is the same reason that lots of other people seem to agree with me on the same things.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos: Your vote is still on Occult.

Oh, good point. Did I forget to unvote or something before I voted SL?

Anyway,

unvote

vote:springlullaby

I believe that's lynch -1, by the way.

[the silent speaker]

I tend to think that the most likely explination is that Armlx agrees with me on some stuff because I'm making sense, because you're not, and because you just look scummy, which is the same reason that lots of other people seem to agree with me on the same things.

Count me as one of them. In fact, count me as one agreeing spcifically with both armlx and Yos by name.

I would switch my vote, but it would be insta-lynch, so I'll hold off until spring has responded.

[springlullaby]

Yosarian, I'm not getting why claiming is bad, please re-explain it for me.

Because those that claim pro-town recruitable roles, especially power roles that don't harm the SK such as the cop, create massive WIFOMs as instead of dying and being death confirmed, they can become scum. Non-recruitable roles claiming simply lowers the target pool for the cult(s) to hit recruitables.

I'm pretty sure death via lynch is still < potential cult recruitment, but claiming outside of that scenario is not helping the town.

I took this post as meaning "death via lynch is

less bad

than potential cult recruitment".

On second thought, maybe it was me who misinterpreted that sentence. The confusion was further encouraged by the fact that neither Yosarian nor armlx bothered to point out that they did not disagree with me after I posted my thoughts on the subject.

I could argue endlessly about WIFOM but I'll refrain from it, I'll just say one more time that what I pointed out was that the

particular

argument armlx used was a good one.

Still, I'm not sure about Yosarian anymore because most of my assumption were based on the fact that Yosarian didn't correct armlx when he answered in his place.

And your argument abotu me an Armlx is silly. "X and Y agree on some stuff, therefore they're probably scum together" is an inherently bad argument, at least until you know the alignment of one of those two people. I tend to think that the most likely explination is that Armlx agrees with me on some stuff because I'm making sense, because you're not, and because you just look scummy, which is the same reason that lots of other people seem to agree with me on the same things.

This is false, my argument was based on the assumption that armlx and you were mutually agreeing on something that did not make sense. But as I've said maybe I was the one who misinterpreted.

Unvote

For what it's worth, I still think armlx is quite scummy; independently from the validity of my case against her, the arguments she used against me are weak.

Anyway, giving that 1) I don't think this day was wasted 2) I would need to reread the entire game with new eyes to be of further utility today and I'm not up to it, I'll just claim nothing.

Your call town.

[curiouskarmadog]

confirm vote spring

[mnowax]

Unvote, Vote Spring Lullaby

Hammah time!

oh and good night blaze....[/b]