Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!

[Shteven]

@madcrawdad: I didn't think Ryan should vote for the sole reason "I'm curious where this is going". That said, even though the wagon was faster than I like, having a (soft)claimed guilty result on someone is going to make a speedy lynch. It worked, so one of two things is true:

1) Jesse, now Cipher, is a cop, and very likely sane.
2) Jesse/Cipher is scum and sold out a fellow player day 1.

I consider #1 to be far more likely, although some people (LML) seem to prefer 2. The reason I'm willing to vote on even a quick lynch day 1 in this case is that both 1 and 2 result in Six Aces being scum. There's really no way to lose here. I really thought all of this was clear, and I'll admit I think you're grasping for secondary evidence here. I made a mistake on rigel recently and now you're trying to dig up dirt to get me lynched, and I don't think it's a very honest attempt.

That said, we have a deadline coming up in one week. Time to look over the likely suspects.

Spacecase - Suspicion started with him over the day 2 kab wagon. It's been stated many times how he first said lynching kab would accomplish nothing and then hammered him, but I think it's also interesting to note that before he was against the kab lynch had fos'ed kab. So it went fos, "lynching Kab would solve nothing and hurt us in the long run", and then the hammer. He hasn't contributed much on day 3 and several players aren't happy with his explaination for day 2.

Phate - Wagon started by Cipher, and seconded by LTG. That means that if you trust Cipher (I do) you have two (mostly)confirmed town on this wagon, which is a plus, although town can be wrong often, and cipher's stated he doesn't have an investigation on Phate and is only doing regular scumhunting. Reasons for suspecting Phate are similiar to spacecase - Lots of contradictory statements on Kab's wagon.

Post 14 (phate posts only): "I don't like kab's recent behaviour, but I wouldn't call it scummy enough for a vote. "
Post 15: "This is where I would vote kab, except that it would put him at L-1 "
Post 16: "The case on kab isn't great, in my opinion. I don't think he's scum. I think that there are scum on the wagon. "

Two against, one for, alternating. It's possible I've missed it, but I don't see where Phate has gone against anyone on the kab wagon. Very little scumhunting at all on day 3.

Rigel - Pushed spacecase wagon with the claim that lynching him would be worth it even if he was town for the information gain. According to LML, is also linked to farside. Most recent wagon started, and could probably use some more discussion. A lot of the other claims made in his recent post 704 I disagree with, take a look yourself if they sound accurate to you.

Keep in mind that the lynch spacecase-town for information argument was first made by farside. Farside probably deserves more attention as well.

We're running low on time - we've been deadlined for roughly a week and have roughly one more week to go. I would still be glad to lynch spacecase, but as his wagon isn't going anywhere, I am also comfortable with a Phate lynch, and so I will put my support behind it.

Unvote Spacecase. Vote: Phate.

We could use more information about Rigel/Farside. I'd like to hear more from LML about how he thinks their lynch would compare to the previously popular spacecase/phate.

[LaptopGun]

I thought we had a little longer than a week on the deadline. Oops.

Anyway, for the sake of due dilligence, I'll play devil's advocate on the phate wagon. I'm really hoping Phate is scum. That said, however, if he is town it would be an awfully good way for the scum to discredit cipher and/or myself. Having a cop lead a mislynch is by no means a rare occurence, but it leaves a big opening to attack them. We have discussed it before, but I will repeat it. I would not just agree with cipher and myself just because it seems likely we are town. Whatever. I'm still confident he is scum. I hope we've had an oppertunity to go over anything.

Re-reading this, it does not sound scummy to me. But for the record I am neither trying to set up a potential out card for myself if Phate comes up town nor am I trying to defend a potential scum buddy (in either cipher or phate). I am trying to make sure I and others don't charge blindly into a bad situation.

[Phate]

Ok, first I'd like to apologise for not posting this weekend. I was hanging out with friends Saturday and went to a chess tourney on Sunday.

That said, I maintain that I have never made contradictory statements about Kab. I didn't think he had to be scum, but I thought he was more likely to be scum than anyone else, certainly enough for D2... in short, I wasn't sure he was scum but he was scummy enough to be 'the lynch'. In large games. D1 and D2 lynches are a tool to get information. Then, ideally, we massclaim D3 and make it a race from there.

I didn't want to do this, but I think it's time to divert this wagon and still give the town a few days to get back from V/LA and look in another direction.

I

claim: doctor

. I protected somebody random N0, I can go look it up if you like, but it's not important. I protected Jesse Gunn N1 and the fact that there were two kills suggests to me that neither of the scumgroups targeted him, so I took a chance and protected vollkan last night, reasoning that no one was going to bother to kill him because they assumed he'd be protected by the doc. The fact that there was one kill last night suggests to me that I was correct, and gives vollkan townie points.

I breadcrumbed D2 when I mentioned how surprising it was that the cop was still alive, and people jumped all over it, thinking it was a scumslip or an attempt to get the cop lynched.

[LaptopGun]

Well... just great. I'm gonna think it over. However I will say it is one of the most thorough doc claims I've seen.

[LaptopGun]

ABWOP You really didnt need to claim it, I severely doubt we were gonna get many more votes on you.

[MadCrawdad]

@ Rigel

Rigel, here's some posts of yours that strike me as really odd... hopefully you can clarify:

In the quote below, you seem to be flopping around all over the place on Kabenon.

First you say that the Kab wagon 'got completely out of control,' implying that you think he's innocent.

Then you say 'Kabenon is scummy, if not flat out scum.'

You say there's scum on the wagon, scum off the wagon.

Then you say that you think it's just a 'lynch-happy town' going after Kab.

You close saying that you're not going to hammer Kab because you want to get an issue with LaptopGun resolved first... implying that you might have hammered if not for the LTG issue.

So what were your real thought on Kab, Rigel? Kind of hard to tell from this post....

The main thing that strikes me about this post, however, is the fact that you really appear to be snuggling up to Justin Playfair (cop) who ended up dead that very night... This is certainly odd, but your next post really makes it more so..

Okay, this Kabenon thing got completely out of control. I think it's pretty obvious that at least one scum is on the Kabenon wagon by this point; statistics and common sense tell us that. I'm guessing there's probably one who's not on the wagon as well.

I'm not sure what to think about this. On the one hand, I do feel that Kabenon is scummy, if not flat out scum. His play today has been simply bad, what with his comments to Shteven on what townies should and should not think, his offhand JDodge comment, etc. However, the speed at which his lynch is getting pushed is slightly worrying me. However, I'm willing to believe it's just lynch-happy town for the time being, since I don't have any specific evidence otherwise.

One quick thing I noticed. I don't feel like Justin Playfair is 'masterminding' Kabenon's lynch at all. If anything, it's people like vollkan and oman, who are taking a much more active stance against him. So he's got well-thought-out posts. That doesn't make him an evil Kabenon-slaying mastermind.

There have been two people who have been pushing this idea of Justin-as-mastermind: LaptopGun and Shteven. I'm suspecting that one of you, at least, is scum, especially if Kabenon is revealed to be town. If Kabenon is town, you have a scapegoat to blame on Day 3. Also, neither of you are voting for Kabenon at all, which could give you a bit of an "I told you so" edge if Kabenon turns up scum.

Justin himself has just put the spotlight on Shteven in regards to this discrepancy, but I thought that I would call it to light for LaptopGun as well. I don't understand why either of you feel that Justin is running this Kabenon lynch, nor do I understand why LaptopGun has not yet voted for Kabenon, despite suspicions that you have stated numerous times throughout the game. So, LG, if you could address this, I'd appreciate it; hopefully before Kabenon gets lynched.

I'm not going to hammer Kabenon, because I want to get this last issue addressed, but I know that it's only a matter of time, even if he happens to be town.

Now if it's not odd enough that you appear to be defending Justin in the earlier post, this next one is. I've changed the font to blue in your quote to draw attention.

You mention that you made an earlier statement something like 'if Justin ends up dead and town, that Shteven or LTG were very likely scum.'

A couple of things here:

- I don't recall you ever mentioning Justin dying before it happened, and I suspect that you're referring to the 'waffly Kab post' where you defended Justin. Did you suspect that Justin would die when you posted the 'waffly Kab post'?

- As you've gone after LTG on several occasions prior (I'm not showing the posts here) this post could be showing a link between you and Shteven. Thoughts?

All right, I'm finally back, and I'm ready to review what has gone on in my absence. Thus far, nothing has occurred to sway my opinion regarding Spacecase. I still think that his actions at the end of Day 2 are scummy, and none of his explanations thus far have been particularly explanatory regarding his flip-flopping.

As for people who haven't been discussed thus far who I feel are scummy, I think that the most obvious one is Wesaq/Melody Man/Dahill. Over the course of 3 days, the three of them as a whole have contributed almost nothing, and I am one of the few people who has pointed this out. Dahill, I'd much rather hear your opinions on the game than you asking other people for theirs. It may be a 20+ page game, but that's no excuse. You knew what you were getting into when you decided to replace, so if you weren't up to 20 pages of reading, you shouldn't have replaced in.

There's only one other thing that I noticed. In a quick review of the thread,

I noticed that I made a post earlier stating that if Justin Playfair was found to be dead and town, that either LG or Shteven was likely to be scum for pushing a Justin-as-Mastermind-of-Kabenon's Demise theory. LG's innocence has been stated by Jesse/Cipher, who is incredibly likely to be pro-town, and thus he is likely to be pro-town as well. As such, there is the possibility that Shteven is scum. However, my earlier statement was just a random thought, nothing concrete, and nothing that Shteven has done recently has seemed overly scummy to me. However, I may take a look back to review his overall behavior, just to be safe

.

The main thing that really strikes me is that you cuddled up to Justin right before he was killed. The fact that you may have slipped up and said you knew he was going to die before-hand is even more intriguing...

[MadCrawdad]

Forgot to add this to my previous post:

FoS: Rigel

[The Fonz]

I breadcrumbed D2 when I mentioned how surprising it was that the cop was still alive, and people jumped all over it, thinking it was a scumslip or an attempt to get the cop lynched.

Well, that's unsurprising. Docs should never breadcrumb imho.

ABWOP You really didnt need to claim it, I severely doubt we were gonna get many more votes on you.

Strongly disagree. Phate was the leading wagon, with under a week to deadline, and spacecase, another of the leading suspects, still hasn't voted, and I think it could reasonably be presumed that he would vote for anyone else if it came down to them or himself to be lynched. So the only way he could have gotten by without claiming is if enough votes had built on dahill, Rigel, or Shteven (two, two, and one votes respectively at time of claim) to surpass Phate before deadline, and this seems unlikely.

(Incidentally, I also don't get why you claimed earlier I was trying to get people to vote for Shteven. I'm not. It's fairly obvious I support a spacecase lynch, even if I' m in a dwindling minority. Was that a typo? You noted that I 'believe Spacecase should have been lynched already' in the next sentence).

Now, we're clearly not lynching Phate (since as scum or SK, he's painting a target on his back for the other faction either way) this leaves us with two vote wagons on SC, Rigel, and dahill, and a one-vote wagon on Shteven.

I'd really like to see those still not voting (SC and vollkan) to do so now, so that we know where we stand. I'd also like to see reasons, though I think SC is very unlikely to supply them for obvious, er, reasons.

Spacecase is still clearly my number one choice- I'll look through the over two to see which is my n02 should it come to that, and suggest that others do the same.

[Shteven]

Little point in lynching a claimed doctor. I'll go back to spacecase then.

Unvote: Phate, Vote: Spacecase

[The Fonz]

Good man.

[LaptopGun]

Fonz, sorry, but you seemed to agree with MCD and calling out Shteven. You called him a liar and there aren't many pro town power rolls left that he could be "hiding." Assuming you're town, that means that you think Shteven is guilty of something anti town. Obviously you would prefer to focus on SC, no argument there, but you wouldn't mind a wagon on SHteven. Or that's how I read the whole thing. Or did I misread you?

So my first post implied I read it. I later explicitly stated I didn't give it the attention it deserved. That seems pretty clear that I'm claiming I didn't give it enough thought. You should be suspicious of me because I posted too quickly without considering it. But you can't say that because of the initial post that I clearly read the post carefully when I've flat out stated that I didn't.

Yes, because we absolutely have to believe you when you say you didn't read it properly, right? Oh, wait. I think it's quite obvious MCD is suggesting that you are, in fact, lying.

I do find it very hard to believe that you said 'how can anyone not want to lynch SC having read Rigel's post?' if you yourself hadn't really read it. That statement implies that you felt Rigel's post contained compelling reasons for voting spacecase. Why would you say that if you hadn't properly read it?

That said, shouldn't we be voting a player who has: <obvious references to spacecase>

[LaptopGun]

On a re-read, it looks like you agree it's possible he's lying or he did something wrong. A little different than I first thought. I think I'm reading your posts too quickly.

[Cipher]

Sorry, I've kind of lost track of things in here. I see Phate claimed doctor - I'm not totally convinced of his innocence, but if he's the doctor then he's going to die tonight anyway, since the scum will want to get to me as soon as possible. I'm particularly wary of the fact that he dropped hints to his role, which doesn't sound like something that a doctor would actually do.

Unvote

I had farside22 and shteven written down as suspects from my first readthrough, I'll look back over them and see what I can see.

[dahill1]

Little point in lynching a claimed doctor. I'll go back to spacecase then.

Unvote: Phate, Vote: Spacecase

unvote

but i'm a little unsure about voting SC again with all of these new suspects

[vollkan]

@MCD: Good posting. I eagerly await his responses.

I'm not entirely convinced by Phate's claim, but I am not about to lynch him now.

[Cipher]

One more thing:
[quote="Shteven") Jesse, now Cipher, is a cop, and very likely sane.
2) Jesse/Cipher is scum and sold out a fellow player day 1.[/quote]
I'm

guaranteed

sane.

[Cipher]

Gah. That should be:

1) Jesse, now Cipher, is a cop, and very likely sane.
2) Jesse/Cipher is scum and sold out a fellow player day 1.

I'm

guaranteed

sane.

[-TinVision-]

I am seeking a replacement for farside22.

[MadCrawdad]

I haven't really been reading Rigel heavily. I'm on my mobile so I won't be reading. if anyone doesn't mind showing me why they think he is town/scum, I would love to read it over the next few days.

Yeah, about that Oman... I just noticed that you've got your vote parked on Rigel. Probably a good idea if you knew why.

I'd like a response from Rigel.

LML: While others may find what you are saying fairly obvious, I am not sure what you're getting at with the "protection" thing. Yes, it's odd he'd say it practically out of the blue. Are you saying that's why it's scummy, that someone who's on the town would never react like that? Is the idea he'd say that to try to draw attention away from a scum buddy?

Fairly simple.

Someone completely over-reacted when a different person had one vote levied on them. Overreaction is a keen way to find scum, since they are tenser (they have something to hide.)

I think Rigel is a completely viable look right now.

NO HE ISN'T!

(Irony)

Anyway

Vote Rigel

and

FoS: Phate

for doing the same thing "I don't think he is scum, but lets lynch him anyway" = Scummy!

[The Fonz]

On a re-read, it looks like you agree it's possible he's lying or he did something wrong. A little different than I first thought. I think I'm reading your posts too quickly.

Yeah, my point in that post was not that *I* think that Shteven is lying- I'm agnostic on the subject at this point- but that it isn't unreasonable for MCD to do so. Shteven's 'Look, I said my reason was this, why are you still attacking me!' thing seems obviously wrong, because we can't take it as read that Shteven is actually being honest.

I'm just pretty much calling out antitown or scummy play where I see it. I'm most confident of SC being scum, and MCD is a pretty plausible buddy. But then, MCD's case on Shteven does kinda make sense in and of itself, because in isolation Shteven's behaviour re: Rigel doesn't really feel honest or protown. It's just that, where that's one incident, spacecase has several good reasons pointing to his scumminess, and that which feels scummy about Shteven feels like railroading rather than distancing, and is therefore of much less value if SC is scum.

[Shteven]

Gah. That should be:

1) Jesse, now Cipher, is a cop, and very likely sane.
2) Jesse/Cipher is scum and sold out a fellow player day 1.

I'm

guaranteed

sane.

Ah, correct. I was just going off general theory, and didn't check the PM's. Cops are sane here.

----

Good catch by MCD that Oman is voting for Rigel and asking other people to explain why. Oman should be back soon, and I'd really like to hear some details about why you're voting for Rigel. As well as responses from Rigel to MCD's post 780.

----

Chances are my vote will be on Spacecase until deadline, though. Rigel may rate, and I don't like Oman's day 3 voting behavior much at all, but they aren't a priority.

[Shteven]

No new posts in just under 24 hours makes baby Jesus cry.

We have a deadline...

[Rigel]

Sorry about my absence. I've been having computer problems, and as such, I wasn't able to get online for the past week. However, I'm now back, and ready to respond to questions asked in my absence.

---

I felt you were defending Farside in a way that looked incredibly odd... almost like one that has knowledge of Farside's role... the only way you can have that information is if you're a cop or scum. Obviously, with 1 cop dead and another claimed, you can't claim an information role.

In what way was my "defense" of Farside revealing that I had any knowledge of Farside's role? I don't see that reasoning anywhere else in your posts.

I also do not know, Rigel, if you thought I was some newbie who could be railroaded. Holy cow. Exactly the opposite. Ask Oman.

I'm not sure where you'd get this impression either. You've been on the site for what appears to be 3 years, and I've had no prior games with you to suggest that you had been absent for some of those years, if such a thing occurred. I makes me think that you're reaching for evidence against me, but I might be a bit trigger-happy on that judgment just because you so suddenly jumped on me a few pages before.

---

Lastly, saying that no suspicion has been cast on Shteven is wrong. Check back a few posts, and you'll see that I called him on it. Probably more because he's now denying that he ever agreed.

I was aware of this, actually, but I saw it after I posted my long post. I never got a chance to mention it until now though.

As for your big post, I already told you what my "real thought on Kab" was at the time.

I'm not sure what to think about this.

I was on the fence; I could see both sides of the issue. I didn't vote Kab, but I didn't want to; I wanted to address some issues yet before the end of the day. However, I see exactly what you mean regarding my quote in blue. However, there is a simple explanation for this: I screwed up. I completely misread my post regarding the Justin-as-Mastermind theory when I referenced it, or I typed in Justin Playfair instead of Kabenon in the critical point. I'm thinking the second one, but the first option is plausible as well. However, seeing as how both of them did die and turn up town, it's something worth looking into.

---

I don't like the way Shteven is trying to backpedal his way out of the situation he has found himself in. He agrees with my point, it seems, but the fact that he appears to be now attempting to deny that he ever said such a thing is making me wonder two things: if he was trying to buddy up to me and is now getting caught in the backlash, and if my point is actually a viable one. Seeing as how Shteven is now attempting to escape suspicion, I'm beginning to grow less certain about Spacecase. Not enough to unvote him at this point, but I am keeping an eye on Shteven now.

FOS: Shteven

The fact of the matter is, Shteven, whether or not you actually agreed with my point, you clearly read it, because you were much too specific to have done otherwise. You've been caught in your lie by multiple people, so there's no point in trying to weasel out of it. Now, whether your play is scummy because you're scum or in spite of the fact that you're town is something that I haven't quite determined.

In addition, could you specify which of my arguments from post 704 you disagree with? In your post, immediately after mine, you had no negative points. Subsequently, you were against my opinion on Spacecase because you were taking flak for agreeing with it. So what else don't you like about my post 704? If anything?

---

LaptopGun, what questions of MadCrawdad am I avoiding? If you mean those that I am answering now, that's one thing. But I don't recall ignoring any questions of his, and I would be willing to answer any that I have missed.

---

In response to Phate's claim: I wasn't all that set on lynching Phate before, and now I'm definitely not throwing a vote on him at this point. I'm not accepting his claim as truth, obviously, but, like everyone else, I'm not voting a claimed cop with better suspects out there.

---

All in all, not much has changed. I'd really appreciate it if SC would show up, but I'm not holding my breath. However, I will say that, barring a Spacecase lynch, my second choice would be Shteven. However, in a choice between the two, it's got to be Spacecase.

[MadCrawdad]

As for your big post, I already told you what my "real thought on Kab" was at the time.

I'm not sure what to think about this.

I was on the fence; I could see both sides of the issue. I didn't vote Kab, but I didn't want to; I wanted to address some issues yet before the end of the day.

You say you didn't want to vote Kab. Fine. Then why do you say, in closing, that you weren't going to hammer Kabenon because you wanted to get a last issue resolved? This definitely implies that if not for whatever issue, that you would have hammered Kab.

I'm not going to hammer Kabenon, because I want to get this last issue addressed, but I know that it's only a matter of time, even if he happens to be town.

You really seemed to be very wishy-washy with regard to taking a stance on Kabenon. If your real point was, as you claim, that you weren't sure what to think, then why post that? Seriously. How many people post just to say 'I'm not sure what to think...' How does that help the town?

---

However, I see exactly what you mean regarding my quote in blue. However, there is a simple explanation for this: I screwed up. I completely misread my post regarding the Justin-as-Mastermind theory when I referenced it, or I typed in Justin Playfair instead of Kabenon in the critical point. I'm thinking the second one, but the first option is plausible as well. However, seeing as how both of them did die and turn up town, it's something worth looking into.

Nope, in looking at the two posts, it's clear that you were blaming Shteven and LTG for 'framing' Justin for the Kabenon wagon. I believe that you blamed Oman and vollkan for the Kab wagon in general.

The fact that you mentioned Shteven and LTG when you mentioned Justin ending up dead absolutely confirms for me that you didn't mean to refer to Kabenon.

That you would even try to pass it off as you accidentally saying 'Justin' when you meant to say 'Kabenon' is highly suspicious. Anyone looking at the posts (331 & 528) can clearly see that you meant to refer to Justin.

---

I don't like the way Shteven is trying to backpedal his way out of the situation he has found himself in. He agrees with my point, it seems, but the fact that he appears to be now attempting to deny that he ever said such a thing is making me wonder two things: if he was trying to buddy up to me and is now getting caught in the backlash,

and if my point is actually a viable one

. Seeing as how Shteven is now attempting to escape suspicion, I'm beginning to grow less certain about Spacecase. Not enough to unvote him at this point, but I am keeping an eye on Shteven now.

FOS: Shteven

Here's the thing, Rigel. You've already tried to clarify the point to your 'let's lynch SC regardless of affiliation,' by saying this:

@MadCrawdad: I don't feel that you're taking the post that you are quoting in the context of my argument. I'm not saying that we should lynch any player regardless of alignment. I'm saying that we should lynch a scummy player who isn't contributing to the game for the sake of the town as a whole.

If you really meant that your original point was to lynch a scummy player who isn't contributing to the game, then why are you now rethinking the viability of it? Lynching scummy players who aren't helping the town is pretty much the whole idea of the game.

The fact that your're claiming to wonder about the viability of your point makes it seem like your original point was to lynch regardless of thoughts on affiliation. The clarification (lynch a scummy player who isn't helping the town) really wouldn't need rethinking, would it?

It really looks like you're doing some back-pedalling of your own, Rigel.

[-TinVision-]

Tenth Vote Count of the Day

Spacecase - 3 (Rigel, TheFonz, Shteven)

dahill1 - 2 (farside22, Phate )

Rigel - 2 (LoudmouthLee, Oman)

Phate - 1 (LaptopGun)

Shteven - 1 (MadCrawdad)

Not voting - 4 (Cipher, dahill1, Spacecase, vollkan)

With 13 alive, it is 7 to lynch. At deadline, the person with the most votes will be lynched. In case of a tie, no lynch and we go to night. There are approximately 72 hours until deadline at Sunday, April 20th 11 pm EST.