Mini #553: Over!

[Matt_S]

Sorry about being such a lazy Moderator Vote Count!

Votes required:

5 to lynch

Qman

-

massive

massive

-

destructor

Not Voting:

6, Imat, Matt_S, Qman, Mert, Ting =), Khelvaster

unvote

. I'm going to have to wait for Mert now. I want to hear some of his updated suspicions, since I was unimpressed yesterday.

[massive]

Well let's not wait too long. All these replacements don't mean that WE should be inactive. It's been three days since the last post. Brutal.

[Imat]

Sorry for inactivity, I lost internet for the past week. I'll read what I've missed, give some thought, and if you have any questions feel free to ask them.

[Matt_S]

Vote Mert. Mod:

prod Mert plz. I thought there would be more activity day 2.

[Matt_S]

EBWOP: I'm stupid. The mod already prodded him.

[Khelvaster]

*chirpchirpchirp*

[ting =)]

@Destructor

Why did you mention safe claims anyway? In your reply to massive, you looked back and justified it, but you never gave your reasons for doing it in the first place.

@Massive.

@Coolbot. Do you have a name?

Oh, and ting, stop fishing. I'm not going to tell you what my role is.

Can anyone here confirm for certain that we have named-nonfellowship people? All we have, as far as I can tell, is Coolbot's word. Well, coolbot's half-word, he mentioned that he wouldn't confirm or deny either way.

I'd like to know because he never mentioned named-nonfellowship until massive asked if it was possible.

I find that question very interesting, ting, because here in my notes it says "ting: not Fellowship" ... guess I ought to look back and find what made me think that, but I bet I got some more questions now.

@Matt, Massive. I ask because I'm still suspicious of coolbot. I dropped him from my scumlist and had him as 'don't know' because his actions would make sense if he was named-nonfellowship. However, if named non-fellowship doesn't exist, then that would make coolbot scum to me. It's not role-fishing, I'm asking so I can decide what to make of coolbot.

Which should have told you that I, too, had a named-non-Fellowship role. I mean, I asked enough questions about it.

Coolbot, Mafia Godfather, killed night 1

Tell me why I should not conclude that you are scum who was defending his godfather.

@Imat.

Whether you think it's a CPR doc, a vig, or some other role, it's still a third killing group. Whatever our actions are today, we have to keep in mind that there's going to be two nks.

@Matt, khel.

Why did you two feel that coolbot was more town-ish than talitha?

@mod.

Thanks. I was in a game where the stacking was different, so I just wanted to make sure.

[massive]

If I'm Mafia, putting myself in with Coolbot at that point in time doesn't gain me anything. He's not under pressure, he's not being voted. With no knowledge of the kill makeup of the game, I wouldn't be willing to risk having one of us turn up dead and the other one be autolynched. I realize that it's the "I'm not stupid enough to do this as Mafia" defense, but so be it.

(unless you want to go back to the safeclaim)

[Matt_S]

@Matt, khel.

Why did you two feel that coolbot was more town-ish than talitha?

Mainly the fact that Talitha was so intent on lynching me
Granted, CoolBot was against me too, but he used logic which I'm more comfortable with.

[destructor]

Why did you mention safe claims anyway? In your reply to massive, you looked back and justified it, but you never gave your reasons for doing it in the first place.

Khelvaster had suggested something that in my experience could be very detrimental to the town. Every themed-mini I played had scum with safe claims, so I assumed this would be the same. I can't imagine how a themed game with no generic townie PM in the first post could be unbreakable short of scum having safe claims. There was no generic townie PM posted in this game, so it occurred to me that scum could have safe claims.

I was and am surprised by how my comment is being treated as something unusual and even scummy. Here's a similar situation that occured in SG:A Mafia, where Kinetic (who it turned out was scum) suggested a mass nameclaim. The major argument against it was... safeclaims. And yes, I was scum in this game, but most of those arguments came from town anyway and scum DID have safeclaims.

I remember saying I was going to post more of a case on massive a while ago. I've neglected this game, but I'll endeavour to get that posted either tonight or tomorrow as well as catch up, even thought it seems not much really happened since I last posted.

[massive]

Maybe I've been off this site / gone from Mafia too long, but we used to just let the Mafia figure out their own fake claims. Maybe scum need coddling nowadays? Somehow I doubt it.

It sure would be nice if there weren't just half the people playing.

[Khelvaster]

Maybe I've been off this site / gone from Mafia too long, but we used to just let the Mafia figure out their own fake claims. Maybe scum need coddling nowadays? Somehow I doubt it.

It sure would be nice if there weren't just half the people playing.

Not to mention the fact that some mods can just be sloppy.

[Imat]

I've fallen way behind in this...I'll admit part of it is due to more interest in other games, but most of it is due to time constraints. However, I'll attempt to start paying more attention to this game first off with a reread and a general suspicions overview. Then hopefully I'll be ably to contribute as much as I should.

[shaka!!]

Looking for a replacement for Mert.

[massive]

Imat

: Did you find anything in your reread?

destructor

: Can you approximate how many themed minis you've played in?

Khelvaster

: Can you supply us with some of your own suspicions? You've posted twice on this page, mostly about the lack of discussion. Maybe your thoughts could help spur us on?

[destructor]

Just two. SG:A Mafia and Vegetable Mafia.
Scum had safe-claims in both games.

[Matt_S]

Heh, I just noticed that Qman disappeared. I'd like to hear what he has to say.

Mod:

can you prod Qman?

[Qman]

Looking for a replacement for Mert.

I'm here and reading, just waiting on this.

[destructor]

I've been a bastard to this game. I'm going to ease back into it.

What IS WIFOM is

using the possibility of him having a safeclaim as a reason to believe he is scum

. There is still no proof anywhere that these safeclaims exist.

massive, are you still suspicious of me? You openly state that there is no proof that scum have safeclaims, yet their existence, so far as I can tell, is the basis of your suspicion. In fact, the part I've bolded seems to pretty much describe exactly what you're saying about me.

You've generally been overstating anything that may be 'unusual' about my safeclaim and pre-game talk suggestions, referring to them as "wild speculation". Based on my experience, they're not the least bit unusual.

I'm still irked by your stance on Khelvaster. As I explained above, I can't see why you're giving him a free pass taking the basis of your suspicion of me into account. I'm suspicious because scum could have safe claims, yet Khelvaster, who as scum would only have made the suggestion he did if he also had a safeclaim, is getting off the hook? Why are you finding the player who raised the possibility suspicious but not the player who, if they exist, acted in a way that could actually be consistent with it? You've addressed this in ways, and as much a fan as I am of Occam's Razor, it's still WIFOM. I can see scum doing this, which I don't think would necessarily be as much a gambit as you're suggesting.

[Matt_S]

Whoa, watch this game go by at blazing speed. I'm tempted to do a crazy vote just to get things going. In fact, I will

Unvote, Vote massive

to get answers faster. I'm right now thinking that one of destructor and massive is scum, simply because they seem smart enough to be beyond distancing like this. Especially when there are probably strictly better options. Or both of them are misled townies.

[massive]

It is Occam's Razor -- the simplest explanation. There's no secondary, circular assumptions being made to make it WIFOM, so maybe you can explain? I'll try and be concise.

I'm not suspicious of Khelvaster. There's no reason, for me, to believe that there are safeclaims in this game, so there's no reason to view Khelvaster's actions as anything short of townie, albeit probably misguided. While his attempt to "break the mod" could easily be seen as "not going to work," I think there's a difference between "not going to work" and "misleading to the town."

I am suspicious of destructor. He used "what if scum have safeclaims?" as an argument against the massclaim when there was no proof such thing existed. He used "what if mafia can talk at night?" as an argument to vote for me, when I suggested that scum wouldn't have been given the chance to talk to make Khelvaster's plan work (as scum), when there was no proof such thing existed. I feel, at the very least, that these "out-of-game experiences" are clouding the town's ability to see what information the game is really giving us. I'm unsure if destructor is doing this on purpose, but I am still suspicious of him, yes.

Using safeclaims to question Khelvaster's innocence, now THAT is WIFOM.

It's also fasinating to watch Matt_S play so positively scummy and have to give HIM a free pass because the mod deleted his role claim and confirmed his townieness.

[Matt_S]

It is Occam's Razor -- the simplest explanation. There's no secondary, circular assumptions being made to make it WIFOM, so maybe you can explain? I'll try and be concise.

I'm not suspicious of Khelvaster. There's no reason, for me, to believe that there are safeclaims in this game, so there's no reason to view Khelvaster's actions as anything short of townie, albeit probably misguided.

What would it take to convince you of the mafia having safeclaims? One of them coming out and saying it? That isn't going to happen. You know, you could just as easily assume that there is never a cop in a mafia game, so that anyone who claims cop must be scum. That's Occam's Razor as well. All vanilla is simpler than vanilla and powers.

Using safeclaims to question Khelvaster's innocence, now THAT is WIFOM.

You're assuming that Khelvaster is confirmed town again, and destroying our ability to refute your assumption. That's not very nice.

It's also fasinating to watch Matt_S play so positively scummy and have to give HIM a free pass because the mod deleted his role claim and confirmed his townieness.

Yeah, you're ignoring the possibility of safeclaims there. I never wanted a free pass.

[massive]

What would it take to convince you of the mafia having safeclaims? One of them coming out and saying it? That isn't going to happen. You know, you could just as easily assume that there is never a cop in a mafia game, so that anyone who claims cop must be scum. That's Occam's Razor as well. All vanilla is simpler than vanilla and powers.

I don't know if the mafia have safeclaims or not. All I'm saying is that, so far, there is no reason for me to assume that the mafia have safeclaims. Using "the mafia have safeclaims" as a logical step to prove or disprove any argument, therefore, is ridiculous.

You're assuming that Khelvaster is confirmed town again, and destroying our ability to refute your assumption. That's not very nice.

I'm not saying Khelvaster is confirmed town OR destroying your ability to refute my assumption. I'm saying that using "the mafia have safeclaims" is a ridiculous way to do so. You want to talk about Khelvaster being scummy? Use real proof from the actual game thread, not some supposed metagame state that may or may not be true.

Yeah, you're ignoring the possibility of safeclaims there. I never wanted a free pass.

Hopping on this bandwagon to use safeclaims as an argument DOES NOT WIN YOU POINTS.

[destructor]

Does your suspicion of me have anything to do with scum

actually

having safe-claims?

[Matt_S]

I don't know if the mafia have safeclaims or not. All I'm saying is that, so far, there is no reason for me to assume that the mafia have safeclaims. Using "the mafia have safeclaims" as a logical step to prove or disprove any argument, therefore, is ridiculous.

I'm not saying Khelvaster is confirmed town OR destroying your ability to refute my assumption. I'm saying that using "the mafia have safeclaims" is a ridiculous way to do so. You want to talk about Khelvaster being scummy? Use real proof from the actual game thread, not some supposed metagame state that may or may not be true.

Yeah, from the beginning I've said that Khelvaster's actions didn't make much sense. I think it would be justified if I was suspicious of him, especially considering his lackluster performance so far today. You saying that scum don't have safeclaims shouldn't make him any more protown.

Hopping on this bandwagon to use safeclaims as an argument DOES NOT WIN YOU POINTS.

Why do you think I'm voting for you? Do you think I'm trying to get your approval? The fact is, I find your logic about safeclaims to be unsatisfactory. The possibility of safeclaims shouldn't be used as evidence, but that doesn't mean we have to pretend that the mafia doesn't have them when we interpret people's actions.