Mini 584: Sudo_Nym Presents- Over!

[ZeekLTK]

ZeekLTK 5- CaptainCake, icemanE, TDC, Nanosauromo, FaerieLord

Basically these 5 people, and especially their motives for voting, should be looked at.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

So look at them. Give us something more than "they voted for me."

[ZeekLTK]

(Deja vu): The problem is, zeek, is that

we don't know you're town.

And how easy is it for scum to make that argument? I don't have a problem with OMGUS votes (like, I hate it when I make a case on someone who's voted for me and they try to dismiss it with OMGUS), but when your lead argument is "they voted for me", to us, that's useless information, and its a bad argument. And people who make bad arguments tend to be scum. So, OMGUS is scummy. And definitely unconvincing.

Okay but just for a second give me the benefit of the doubt and look at each of those players in this game (and their reason for voting for me).

For this brief period just assume that I'm a townie; do you feel that all 5 of them had a valid reason for voting me or do you think one or two of them made a huge stretch just to put their vote on a bandwagon against a townie?

If you can go through and, while assuming I am a townie, not find anything wrong with any of the votes against me, then by all means feel free to suspect me. But I don't think this will be the case.

[ZeekLTK]

I will look at them, but I'd like others to as well.

Draw your own conclusions.

[FaerieLord]

If TSPN was focused on the game, then he could have mislynched Zeek on purpose, so that he could rely upon it and use it to protect his scumbuddy.

Scum Buddy? What scum buddy? I sincerely don't get what you are trying to say

Anyway, the Zeek incident was about 2-3 weeks ago. . . and I'm not going to talk more about an ongoing game, but feel free to read it yourself. Mini 533

I'll take a look at it

Yes, the post accused me of attacking people who attack me. So? Yes I do that. Congrats. Now please tell me how that is scummy though.

It is scummy because when you are attacking your attackers you are overreacting to a simple attack. Over reacting means that you have something to hide.

Look at it this way. If you were a criminal and saw cops coming your way, would you be scared that they are after you?

It's easier (for me, at least,) to find scum by seeing how people are attacking known townies rather than to try to find scum between people who are attacking each other of whom I don't know either role.

What known townies? I don't see any confirmed townies

At this point in the game (Day 1!) the only townie I know of is me, so anyone that attacks me seems more scummy than anything else, because I know they most likely have ulterior motives other than "trying to win for the town". Especially when I haven't really done anything to warrant being attacked.

This is what I don't like about you. How do we know that you are town? The only person that would know this is you, and your word isn't enough. So who ever we attack, we are attacking them because we think they are scum. Everybody is "townie". Nobody will go out and say "Hey, I'm scum. Pleased to meet you." Also, stop saying you have done nothing scummy. A lot of people disagree.

-I responded to these "suspicions" by pointing out that no one knows Cake's role, so he could be scum, and if he was that wouldn't really make me suspicious now, would it?

Are you ignoring my posts on purpose? I said it before. Scum bus other scum. It's a playstyle so you "distance" yourself from your scum partner so that if he turns up scum, people will think "hey, he can't be scum."

Also, by your logic, no one knows your role. So why are we scummy for attacking you?

so why is it "scummy" if I attack people who attack me

He wasn't under pressure anymore. You were at that point. By your reasoning, if I FoS everyone in the game, no one can vote me because they'd be scummy.

but continued to try to attack me

That part I don't like. Try to attack you? My case > your answers.

However, given recent posts by MafiaSSK I would consider voting for him if no one else wants to try to figure out which scum have voted for me.

Why not figure the scum yourself. You seem good enough, don't you agree?

Okay but just for a second give me the benefit of the doubt and look at each of those players in this game (and their reason for voting for me).

Damnit, why should we give you the benefit of the doubt and not them? Answer me this. This is mafia, not pre-grade "who stole my crayon?!". We cannot give you the benefit of the doubt. You're as likely scum as the rest of us. And your posts have made you even more likely scum

For this brief period just assume that I'm a townie; do you feel that all 5 of them had a valid reason for voting me or do you think one or two of them made a huge stretch just to put their vote on a bandwagon against a townie?

I agree, some of the votes are underwhelming, but you have still been playing worse than barning one single vote.

That was long.

Reading Mini 533 right now

[ZeekLTK]

I cast a third vote for Cake in #32 saying "let's stir the pot a lot" (a reference to iceman's response about his seemingly random FoS against cake).

No one says anything about this vote and the game is not really getting anywhere so in post #55 I just make a comment "are we going to lynch Cake or what?"

Soon after, post #58, iceman quotes TSPN's question of him (ice) scum hunting and FoS me saying I am "rushing a kill".

Post #60 Cake votes for me, saying it is because I had no good reason to vote for him (some [not just me, Greasy Spot and Lowell to name a few] call this OMGUS). Also I should point out that my vote on him was never intended to be for any particular reason (the "let's stir the pot" comment proves this).

Post #68 and #69 FaerieLord and Marmalade both say "I find the cake wagon uninteresting" (or some variation of that).

Post #73, TSPN has previously called out iceman for "not scum hunting" so iceman votes for me (third vote). He says "OMGUS votes are not scummy" (because I said "nice OMGUS vote from Cake"), again says I am making a "push for a kill" (even though I have not said anything further about Cake [other than pointing out his OMGUS vote] since BEFORE ice FoSed me).

Post #76 I explain to iceman that I never "rushed a lynch" (because really all I did was make one comment). Then I point out that Cake *could* be scum, and therefore I wouldn't be too scummy for lynching scum now would I?

#77 ice says he will assume everyone is town unless they give him a reason not to.

#78 Marmalade says the argument between ice and I is about "play-style differences" and says that won't help the town.

#79-83 we (ice, Marmalade, and I) discuss this.

#84 ice *admits* that my logic from #76 was correct: if Cake was scum then I would not be scummy for getting him lynched.

#85 Cake still attacks me for not having a valid reason to lynch him (but, again, I never intended to)

#88 I point out how I have the most votes and yet all 3 of them are bogus (Lowell later agrees with me in his recap)

#89 TDC suggests that even if Cake was scum, I could be "bussing him" (lol seriously? he's not even half way to a lynch at this point). TDC also makes some valid points regarding other parts of the game, asks some good questions, but then he puts vote #4 against me. I find this vote to be odd and opportunistic since a) TDC hasn't participated in the game up until this point, b) he asked all those questions of different people, you'd think he would wait to get some responses before he cast a vote... especially since the vote he cast was the 4th against someone.

#90 I call out TDC for putting that 4th vote on me for practically no reason.

#92 TDC responds to me, mostly calls me out because I didn't have a reason for voting Cake but keep in mind my vote was never intended to have a reason, it was during the end of the random stage, and I haven't said anything about trying to get Cake lynched (aka other people to vote for him) since post #55 (a post that wasn't all that serious anyways).

#94 iceman attacks TSPN saying "you and zeek are in the minority of wanting to lynch Cake". He FoS: TSPN after TSPN continues to pressure ice about "not scum hunting". (#95 - I point out TSPN was never in favor of lynching Cake.)

#99 FaerieLord comes out of nowhere (hasn't posted since #68) with a long post of my quotes and his one-liners right below them. Concludes with a FoS on me and TSPN. Basically he says I am "rushing a lynch" (even though I haven't said anything that would attempt to get people to vote for Cake since post #55) and then questions what I said in #76 about "cake could be scum", and then attacks me for not having a reason for my vote... (already addressed this above)

#101 TSPN says "on Day 1 you have to start somewhere, and Zeek's vote started us somewhere". Apparently he is the only person to realize my vote wasn't serious...

#104 TDC questions TSPN's previous posts (about pressure and bandwagoning) but does so mostly only to try to get TSPN to view me as scummy.

#105 I point out how iceman only votes or FoSes when TSPN calls him out for "not scum hunting".

#106 iceman says that is ridiculous, tries to defend his vote and FoSes but a lot of the reasoning is poor. (for example says he FoSed TSPN because he "supported me", but he never did; and says he voted for me because I "pushed a lynch" but again, that never really happened either). So either iceman is bad at reading the game or he is just grasping for reasons to defend himself.

#108 I call out FaerieLord because he attacked me but never voted, just kinda tried to push the bandwagon along with an FoS.

#109 TSPN agrees that FaerieLord was scummy (moreso than ice apparently).

#110 Faerie says he didn't vote because he didn't want to put me at L-1 (it would have only been L-2)

#111 Faerie says "I'm not the only one who hasn't contributed much" and admits he "lurked through the random voting stage"

#113 Nanosauromo comes out of nowhere and says (I'll quote him actually, this is by far the scummiest post of the game):

Hi guys, sorry for not posting much yet.

Reading over the game, Zeek really jumps out at me as being scummy. He says:

Are we going to lynch ScumCake or what?

And then, later, he says:

First, I never "rushed a lynch"; he's only got 3 votes.

Sorry Zeek, but saying "Let's lynch [insert name here] already!" on page 3 is pretty much the definition of rushing a lynch. You are lying, and the only people who have any reason to lie are scum.

Unvote
Vote: ZeekLTK

He really takes everything out of context here. The first quote was #55, and I never said anything to that effect (or any other effect to get people to vote for Cake) since. This just reeks of a player who has been inactive/lurking coming in, seeing who has the most votes, and then going back and finding a reason to vote for them. If this isn't a clear scum tactic I don't know what is.

unvote; vote Nanosauromo

Okay, continuing...


#114 I call out Nanosauromo for being inactive and then voting for me (5th vote), but at the time I didn't realize how scummy that actually was.

#116 Marmalade says what I did (voting Cake and making that comment) wasn't bad (thank you). But he doesn't like how I attack people who attack me.

#117 TDC quotes a question he asked TSPN from #104 and says "quoted for not being answered yet". Basically the question is phrased in a way that if TSPN answers "no" (which is really the logical answer) then TDC will say, "so then you should be suspicious of Zeek and vote for him".

Okay, now let's step back for a second here. Post #89, when TDC enters the game, he has lots of questions for several players (Johoonho, Cake, etc.) None of these questions were ever answered, and they were all fairly relevant to the game. So why did TDC not press these issues? Surely those questions were more important than asking TSPN to change his mind on my behavior. It seems to me, TDC only came into the game with a slew of questions to give himself the opportunity to go in any direction and he didn't particularly care which direction it went in as long as it went against a townie. It happened to go against me, so that is the one he pursued. His questions were ignored by others, but as they had really nothing to do with attacking me, he just forgot about them as well. If he was REALLY interested in having those questions answered, he would have done the same as he's done here, and bring them up again for those people to answer. This shows he's not really interested in finding the correct answers (aka being able to find scum), he just wants to find answers that push his own agenda, which at this point is trying to mislynch me.

FoS: TDC

(would vote if not for Nano earlier).


Okay back to the recap:

#118 FaerieLord says "rushing a lynch is scummy" and quotes Marmalade about me attacking people.

#119 Johoohno gives a good summary of the case against me:
• Last to confirm (weak scum tell as said before).
• Eager to vote for CaptainCake - #55 – (has been brushed away as a joke, but it really didn’t sit well with the crowd here).
• Illogical posts (#76) which is commented in #85 by CaptainCake. This is something ZeekLTK avoids responding to, instead he moves on to something else, namely the votes on himself (#87 & #88).
• Doesn’t really explain his vote on CaptainCake which he also kept all the way up to #105.

This clearly is not very indicative of scum and Johoohno realizes this and unvotes for me, but puts an FoS (understandably) on me.

Also I want to point out that for the third point, I stopped responding to it because in #84 iceman agreed with me about that point.


#120 iceman tells Johoohno that it was a smart choice to give me the benefit of the doubt (so why does ice leave his vote?)

#122 FaerieLord says we need something to "rejuvenate the thread" and wants me to claim (I'm on L-3 at this point).

#125 I don't claim but I try to give as brief a summary as possible as to how I've seen the game play out and conclude with my suspicions on various people who have voted for me.

#126 FaerieLord says his case isn't based on the "rushing a lynch" comment (uhm.... that's all you've been saying it's based on all day!) but rather on my "over defensiveness" (this is the first time that's been brought up, maybe Marmalade's post gave him the idea and now he's trying to run with this because his other point was weak?) Then he tries to say I might have been bussing Cake (okay, seriously???) then says I over reacted (uhm, don't you think some of the people who jumped on me over reacted to the stupid comment I made?) then concludes with the fact that I never made a case (again, forgetting that it happened during the random stage).

#127 TDC continues to attack me. I'd like to take this time to point out that other than his first post, he has done nothing this entire game except attack me... he does question why I should claim though.

#128 TDC points out that I am only on L-3, not L-2

#130 FaerieLord thanks TDC for pointing that out and then votes for me (apparently Faerie is afraid to cast L-1 or hammer votes because then he'll be suspicious for killing a townie)

#132 Marmalade wants to know why I didn't respond to his #116 comment

#133 I tell him that's how I play when I am town (I attack those who attack me)

#134 Marmalade has further questions (that are pretty much the same as I just addressed)...

#136 TSPN says Faerie is rolefishing and votes for him

#137 TDC finally looks at other players in the game and echoes TSPN that he also feels that Faerie is rolefishing

#142 Faerie again outlines his "case" against me:

1)Rushing thing
2)Bad logic when it comes to lynching
3)Over Defensiveness
4)OMGUS

Again, most of that is garbage (especially #1 and #2)


#143 Lowell joins us

#144 TDC finally remembers his questions from a long time ago and reminds Cake about them. Also points out several players haven't commented on the issue, including someone named "Rage" (we have one in this game?)

#145 nm Rage is in a different game

#146 TSPN outlines why FaerieLord's points in #142 are garbage

#147 Faerie makes the "slip up" (IMO) about the vig (saying "Scum would go 1 for 1 sometimes (I would if you were the vig)." Apparently no one else [or at least not Marmalade] finds that wording to be odd. I still do. Also still wants me to claim apparently.

#148 TDC questions the "vig" part of that quote.

#151 Cake makes a rare appearance only to tell us that he is going to be gone longer (must have been prodded)

#153 iceman is waiting for Lowell (why not comment on the other stuff that's happened?)

#155-#156 TSPN and Johoohno both vote for MafiaSSK

#157 TDC seems to have backed off from me and says he is considering voting MafiaSSK, but isn't quite ready to drop his vote (I dunno what else needs to be discussed regarding me)

#158 Lowell's long summary...

#159 ... leads him to (incorrectly IMO) suspect Johoohno for FoSing me, wonder about the Cake wagon (wasn't much of a wagon), call out Greasy Spot for some posts, say Nano's post was "solid town" because of WIFOM (are you kidding me??? [I missed this the first time because I hadn't really remembered Nano's post being so bad]), and says Marmalade is probably town. Votes for Greasy.

#161 I question FaerieLord's "vig" comment and vote for him because of it (it's a better reason than Cake, eh? :p)

#162 FaerieLord, instead of addressing or explaining it says "where the fuck did I say that?" (even though I QUOTED HIM in #161)

#164 Greasy points out that the posts Lowell is VOTING him for aren't really that scummy (they aren't at all IMO).

At this point I will

FoS: Lowell

for trying to tell us Nano is town (in his recap) and attacking Greasy, who had been inactive for a while, for virtually nothing.

#167 I quote Faerie again to show him the vig quote and again ask him what the hell he was talking about.

#170 FaerieLord says "Nothing brought up the vig. I just said that if I was scum and someone claimed vig, I'd quick lynch him. Because vigs go 2 for 1 at times, which is too much for a 3 team mafia to handle." - I find it very odd that he would bring this up, or even paint a situation where he would be scum. This reeks of some kind of outside knowledge or something because, as town, I can't figure out why he would be talking about a vig or anything to that effect at this moment.

As if I couldn't have by now, I definitely will

FoS: FaerieLord

for this.

#171 FaerieLord says he is not feeling the Greasy Spot case (similar to what he said about Cake earlier).

***Also this last post by Faerie again he brings up bussing (this is like the third time he has). Seriously. The situation of me voting for Cake is maybe the worst situation of "bussing" that scum could ever do because there was no attention on either of us really before that happened. The fact that you keep bringing this up means you are still stretching for any reason to make a case against me, which is very scummy.

----


So basically in this recap I have changed my vote to Nano and I feel TDC, Faerie, and Lowell are all suspicious thus far.

To add... after I FoSed TDC I felt a lot of his posts were more pro-town, but that still doesn't negate all his posts that lead to my FoS.

But those are just my feelings based on this recap. Anyone else is free to add their two cents and pick out something I missed, or explain how I misinterpreted something.



To make it easier for the mod:

unvote; vote Nanosauromo

[FaerieLord]

(uhm.... that's all you've been saying it's based on all day!)

That is untrue. See post number 2. (My 3rd post) I mentioned over defensiveness, bad logic and the rushing.

Stop saying things that are false.

(this is the first time that's been brought up, maybe Marmalade's post gave him the idea and now he's trying to run with this because his other point was weak?)

Again, read my third post in the game. It fucking mentioned over defensiveness

apparently Faerie is afraid to cast L-1 or hammer votes because then he'll be suspicious for killing a townie

You're misquoting me again! I don't put -1 or hammer votes because it stifles the discussion of the town. Like you did in 533. Hammering before the ENTIRE town consents is not a good play. Period.

1)Rushing thing
2)Bad logic when it comes to lynching
3)Over Defensiveness
4)OMGUS

Again, most of that is garbage (especially #1 and #2)

And again, Zeek dismisses my case by leaving it as garbage, thus not having to answer it.

#147 Faerie makes the "slip up" (IMO) about the vig (saying "Scum would go 1 for 1 sometimes (I would if you were the vig)." Apparently no one else [or at least not Marmalade] finds that wording to be odd. I still do. Also still wants me to claim apparently.

Again, ZeekLTK is misquoting. We (Me and TSPN and TDC) were discussing potential situations. And he is trying to make it out as a slip

#146 TSPN outlines why FaerieLord's points in #142 are garbage

Incorrect. He outlined nothing. He just said he disagrees

#162 FaerieLord, instead of addressing or explaining it says "where the fuck did I say that?" (even though I QUOTED HIM in #161)

And I'll say it again. Where the fuck did I say that?

#170 FaerieLord says "Nothing brought up the vig. I just said that if I was scum and someone claimed vig, I'd quick lynch him. Because vigs go 2 for 1 at times, which is too much for a 3 team mafia to handle." - I find it very odd that he would bring this up, or even paint a situation where he would be scum. This reeks of some kind of outside knowledge or something because, as town, I can't figure out why he would be talking about a vig or anything to that effect at this moment.

Again! IT WAS POTENTIAL SITUATIONS! Am on your ignore list or something or are you sincerely this obtuse?

Also, I never said you were bussing cake. I said that you saying that you voting cake makes you town if cake is scum is bad logic. Because scum do bus other scum. Which makes your reasoning a complete failure.

Also, I read parts of 533, and you were not this obtuse. The only time you were obtuse is where you were going "But I'm a miller so there must be a jester!" and you kept going like that even though people told you you were incorrect.

That said, you're the most frustrating player I have ever played with. And I have played my fair share of games.

[TDC]

Fairly huge post by you, there.

TDC suggests that even if Cake was scum, I could be "bussing him" (lol seriously? he's not even half way to a lynch at this point).

iceman had suggested that you would be cleared if Cake turned up scum and I pointed out that while that would certainly lower suspicion, one should always think about all possibilities.

Basically the question is phrased in a way that if TSPN answers "no" (which is really the logical answer) then TDC will say, "so then you should be suspicious of Zeek and vote for him".

Well, let's look at his post and my question:

By attacking him, you're punishing him for pressuring cake, which is a pro-town thing to do. Pressuring people on day 1 = good.

Are you saying that if I voted you right now and said "Can we get TSPN lynched, now?" that would put pressure on you? That that would be pro-town behaviour from me?

I have no idea how he could have answered "no" without contradicting his own post, so how do you think could that have lead to me telling him to vote for you?

Okay, now let's step back for a second here. Post #89, when TDC enters the game, he has lots of questions for several players (Johoonho, Cake, etc.) None of these questions were ever answered, and they were all fairly relevant to the game. So why did TDC not press these issues?

This was because unlike the others who I asked questions, TSPN had already posted in the thread since I asked (so I assumed he had ignored/overread my question).
Natirasha was soon replaced, Johoonho answered in his next post and Cake has not really been part of the game since then.

I can't really judge whether you misrepresented FaerieLord as much as he claims without reading the mentioned posts again, will do that tomorrow.

[icemanE]

#120 iceman tells Johoohno that it was a smart choice to give me the benefit of the doubt (so why does ice leave his vote?)

I left my vote on you because you were a good distance from a lynch, so my vote wasn't an imminent threat, and I was and am still suspicious of you.

[icemanE]

In support of Faerie's overdefensive idea, how about this:

I cast a third vote for Cake in #32 saying "let's stir the pot a lot" (a reference to iceman's response about his seemingly random FoS against cake).

No one says anything about this vote and the game is not really getting anywhere so in post #55 I just make a comment "are we going to lynch Cake or what?"

Soon after, post #58, iceman quotes TSPN's question of him (ice) scum hunting and FoS me saying I am "rushing a kill".

Post #60 Cake votes for me, saying it is because I had no good reason to vote for him (some [not just me, Greasy Spot and Lowell to name a few] call this OMGUS). Also I should point out that my vote on him was never intended to be for any particular reason (the "let's stir the pot" comment proves this).

Post #68 and #69 FaerieLord and Marmalade both say "I find the cake wagon uninteresting" (or some variation of that).

Post #73, TSPN has previously called out iceman for "not scum hunting" so iceman votes for me (third vote). He says "OMGUS votes are not scummy" (because I said "nice OMGUS vote from Cake"), again says I am making a "push for a kill" (even though I have not said anything further about Cake [other than pointing out his OMGUS vote] since BEFORE ice FoSed me).

Post #76 I explain to iceman that I never "rushed a lynch" (because really all I did was make one comment). Then I point out that Cake *could* be scum, and therefore I wouldn't be too scummy for lynching scum now would I?

#77 ice says he will assume everyone is town unless they give him a reason not to.

#78 Marmalade says the argument between ice and I is about "play-style differences" and says that won't help the town.

#79-83 we (ice, Marmalade, and I) discuss this.

#84 ice *admits* that my logic from #76 was correct: if Cake was scum then I would not be scummy for getting him lynched.

#85 Cake still attacks me for not having a valid reason to lynch him (but, again, I never intended to)

#88 I point out how I have the most votes and yet all 3 of them are bogus (Lowell later agrees with me in his recap)

#89 TDC suggests that even if Cake was scum, I could be "bussing him" (lol seriously? he's not even half way to a lynch at this point). TDC also makes some valid points regarding other parts of the game, asks some good questions, but then he puts vote #4 against me. I find this vote to be odd and opportunistic since a) TDC hasn't participated in the game up until this point, b) he asked all those questions of different people, you'd think he would wait to get some responses before he cast a vote... especially since the vote he cast was the 4th against someone.

#90 I call out TDC for putting that 4th vote on me for practically no reason.

#92 TDC responds to me, mostly calls me out because I didn't have a reason for voting Cake but keep in mind my vote was never intended to have a reason, it was during the end of the random stage, and I haven't said anything about trying to get Cake lynched (aka other people to vote for him) since post #55 (a post that wasn't all that serious anyways).

#94 iceman attacks TSPN saying "you and zeek are in the minority of wanting to lynch Cake". He FoS: TSPN after TSPN continues to pressure ice about "not scum hunting". (#95 - I point out TSPN was never in favor of lynching Cake.)

#99 FaerieLord comes out of nowhere (hasn't posted since #68) with a long post of my quotes and his one-liners right below them. Concludes with a FoS on me and TSPN. Basically he says I am "rushing a lynch" (even though I haven't said anything that would attempt to get people to vote for Cake since post #55) and then questions what I said in #76 about "cake could be scum", and then attacks me for not having a reason for my vote... (already addressed this above)

#101 TSPN says "on Day 1 you have to start somewhere, and Zeek's vote started us somewhere". Apparently he is the only person to realize my vote wasn't serious...

#104 TDC questions TSPN's previous posts (about pressure and bandwagoning) but does so mostly only to try to get TSPN to view me as scummy.

#105 I point out how iceman only votes or FoSes when TSPN calls him out for "not scum hunting".

#106 iceman says that is ridiculous, tries to defend his vote and FoSes but a lot of the reasoning is poor. (for example says he FoSed TSPN because he "supported me", but he never did; and says he voted for me because I "pushed a lynch" but again, that never really happened either). So either iceman is bad at reading the game or he is just grasping for reasons to defend himself.

#108 I call out FaerieLord because he attacked me but never voted, just kinda tried to push the bandwagon along with an FoS.

#109 TSPN agrees that FaerieLord was scummy (moreso than ice apparently).

#110 Faerie says he didn't vote because he didn't want to put me at L-1 (it would have only been L-2)

#111 Faerie says "I'm not the only one who hasn't contributed much" and admits he "lurked through the random voting stage"

#113 Nanosauromo comes out of nowhere and says (I'll quote him actually, this is by far the scummiest post of the game):

Hi guys, sorry for not posting much yet.

Reading over the game, Zeek really jumps out at me as being scummy. He says:

Are we going to lynch ScumCake or what?

And then, later, he says:

First, I never "rushed a lynch"; he's only got 3 votes.

Sorry Zeek, but saying "Let's lynch [insert name here] already!" on page 3 is pretty much the definition of rushing a lynch. You are lying, and the only people who have any reason to lie are scum.

Unvote
Vote: ZeekLTK

He really takes everything out of context here. The first quote was #55, and I never said anything to that effect (or any other effect to get people to vote for Cake) since. This just reeks of a player who has been inactive/lurking coming in, seeing who has the most votes, and then going back and finding a reason to vote for them. If this isn't a clear scum tactic I don't know what is.

unvote; vote Nanosauromo

Okay, continuing...


#114 I call out Nanosauromo for being inactive and then voting for me (5th vote), but at the time I didn't realize how scummy that actually was.

#116 Marmalade says what I did (voting Cake and making that comment) wasn't bad (thank you). But he doesn't like how I attack people who attack me.

#117 TDC quotes a question he asked TSPN from #104 and says "quoted for not being answered yet". Basically the question is phrased in a way that if TSPN answers "no" (which is really the logical answer) then TDC will say, "so then you should be suspicious of Zeek and vote for him".

Okay, now let's step back for a second here. Post #89, when TDC enters the game, he has lots of questions for several players (Johoonho, Cake, etc.) None of these questions were ever answered, and they were all fairly relevant to the game. So why did TDC not press these issues? Surely those questions were more important than asking TSPN to change his mind on my behavior. It seems to me, TDC only came into the game with a slew of questions to give himself the opportunity to go in any direction and he didn't particularly care which direction it went in as long as it went against a townie. It happened to go against me, so that is the one he pursued. His questions were ignored by others, but as they had really nothing to do with attacking me, he just forgot about them as well. If he was REALLY interested in having those questions answered, he would have done the same as he's done here, and bring them up again for those people to answer. This shows he's not really interested in finding the correct answers (aka being able to find scum), he just wants to find answers that push his own agenda, which at this point is trying to mislynch me.

FoS: TDC

(would vote if not for Nano earlier).


Okay back to the recap:

#118 FaerieLord says "rushing a lynch is scummy" and quotes Marmalade about me attacking people.

#119 Johoohno gives a good summary of the case against me:
• Last to confirm (weak scum tell as said before).
• Eager to vote for CaptainCake - #55 – (has been brushed away as a joke, but it really didn’t sit well with the crowd here).
• Illogical posts (#76) which is commented in #85 by CaptainCake. This is something ZeekLTK avoids responding to, instead he moves on to something else, namely the votes on himself (#87 & #88).
• Doesn’t really explain his vote on CaptainCake which he also kept all the way up to #105.

This clearly is not very indicative of scum and Johoohno realizes this and unvotes for me, but puts an FoS (understandably) on me.

Also I want to point out that for the third point, I stopped responding to it because in #84 iceman agreed with me about that point.


#120 iceman tells Johoohno that it was a smart choice to give me the benefit of the doubt (so why does ice leave his vote?)

#122 FaerieLord says we need something to "rejuvenate the thread" and wants me to claim (I'm on L-3 at this point).

#125 I don't claim but I try to give as brief a summary as possible as to how I've seen the game play out and conclude with my suspicions on various people who have voted for me.

#126 FaerieLord says his case isn't based on the "rushing a lynch" comment (uhm.... that's all you've been saying it's based on all day!) but rather on my "over defensiveness" (this is the first time that's been brought up, maybe Marmalade's post gave him the idea and now he's trying to run with this because his other point was weak?) Then he tries to say I might have been bussing Cake (okay, seriously???) then says I over reacted (uhm, don't you think some of the people who jumped on me over reacted to the stupid comment I made?) then concludes with the fact that I never made a case (again, forgetting that it happened during the random stage).

#127 TDC continues to attack me. I'd like to take this time to point out that other than his first post, he has done nothing this entire game except attack me... he does question why I should claim though.

#128 TDC points out that I am only on L-3, not L-2

#130 FaerieLord thanks TDC for pointing that out and then votes for me (apparently Faerie is afraid to cast L-1 or hammer votes because then he'll be suspicious for killing a townie)

#132 Marmalade wants to know why I didn't respond to his #116 comment

#133 I tell him that's how I play when I am town (I attack those who attack me)

#134 Marmalade has further questions (that are pretty much the same as I just addressed)...

#136 TSPN says Faerie is rolefishing and votes for him

#137 TDC finally looks at other players in the game and echoes TSPN that he also feels that Faerie is rolefishing

#142 Faerie again outlines his "case" against me:

1)Rushing thing
2)Bad logic when it comes to lynching
3)Over Defensiveness
4)OMGUS

Again, most of that is garbage (especially #1 and #2)


#143 Lowell joins us

#144 TDC finally remembers his questions from a long time ago and reminds Cake about them. Also points out several players haven't commented on the issue, including someone named "Rage" (we have one in this game?)

#145 nm Rage is in a different game

#146 TSPN outlines why FaerieLord's points in #142 are garbage

#147 Faerie makes the "slip up" (IMO) about the vig (saying "Scum would go 1 for 1 sometimes (I would if you were the vig)." Apparently no one else [or at least not Marmalade] finds that wording to be odd. I still do. Also still wants me to claim apparently.

#148 TDC questions the "vig" part of that quote.

#151 Cake makes a rare appearance only to tell us that he is going to be gone longer (must have been prodded)

#153 iceman is waiting for Lowell (why not comment on the other stuff that's happened?)

#155-#156 TSPN and Johoohno both vote for MafiaSSK

#157 TDC seems to have backed off from me and says he is considering voting MafiaSSK, but isn't quite ready to drop his vote (I dunno what else needs to be discussed regarding me)

#158 Lowell's long summary...

#159 ... leads him to (incorrectly IMO) suspect Johoohno for FoSing me, wonder about the Cake wagon (wasn't much of a wagon), call out Greasy Spot for some posts, say Nano's post was "solid town" because of WIFOM (are you kidding me??? [I missed this the first time because I hadn't really remembered Nano's post being so bad]), and says Marmalade is probably town. Votes for Greasy.

#161 I question FaerieLord's "vig" comment and vote for him because of it (it's a better reason than Cake, eh? :p)

#162 FaerieLord, instead of addressing or explaining it says "where the fuck did I say that?" (even though I QUOTED HIM in #161)

#164 Greasy points out that the posts Lowell is VOTING him for aren't really that scummy (they aren't at all IMO).

At this point I will

FoS: Lowell

for trying to tell us Nano is town (in his recap) and attacking Greasy, who had been inactive for a while, for virtually nothing.

#167 I quote Faerie again to show him the vig quote and again ask him what the hell he was talking about.

#170 FaerieLord says "Nothing brought up the vig. I just said that if I was scum and someone claimed vig, I'd quick lynch him. Because vigs go 2 for 1 at times, which is too much for a 3 team mafia to handle." - I find it very odd that he would bring this up, or even paint a situation where he would be scum. This reeks of some kind of outside knowledge or something because, as town, I can't figure out why he would be talking about a vig or anything to that effect at this moment.

As if I couldn't have by now, I definitely will

FoS: FaerieLord

for this.

#171 FaerieLord says he is not feeling the Greasy Spot case (similar to what he said about Cake earlier).

***Also this last post by Faerie again he brings up bussing (this is like the third time he has). Seriously. The situation of me voting for Cake is maybe the worst situation of "bussing" that scum could ever do because there was no attention on either of us really before that happened. The fact that you keep bringing this up means you are still stretching for any reason to make a case against me, which is very scummy.

----


So basically in this recap I have changed my vote to Nano and I feel TDC, Faerie, and Lowell are all suspicious thus far.

To add... after I FoSed TDC I felt a lot of his posts were more pro-town, but that still doesn't negate all his posts that lead to my FoS.

But those are just my feelings based on this recap. Anyone else is free to add their two cents and pick out something I missed, or explain how I misinterpreted something.



To make it easier for the mod:

unvote; vote Nanosauromo

[TDC]

Did you really need to quote that wall of text? :/

[icemanE]

Did you really need to quote that wall of text? :/

It makes a point, so yes.

[Sudo_Nym]

ZeekLTK 5

-

CaptainCake, icemanE, TDC, Nanosauromo, FaerieLord

mafiaSSK 2-

TheSweatpantsNinja, Johoohno

Greasy Spot 1-

Lowell

Lowell 1-

Greasy Spot

Nanosauromo 1-

ZeekLTK

With 12 alive, 7 votes will lynch.

[ZeekLTK]

Did you really need to quote that wall of text? :/

It makes a point, so yes.

\

I fail to see what your point is. Part of why I did that was:

So look at them. Give us something more than "they voted for me."

And part was I wanted to go over everything again anyways and see if I could catch anything I missed.

[icemanE]

I fail to see what your point is.

Did you read the sentence I wrote above your giant wall of text? I guess not, here it is again:

In support of Faerie's overdefensive idea, how about this:

You are incredibly over-defensive. Look at Faerie's posts for clarity on what that means, and actually read them, too, because its apparent that you haven't from your "analysis".

[ZeekLTK]

I made a recap of the game... how is that over-defensive? Or are you just against anyone doing something that might cause them to find scum?

[ZeekLTK]

EBWOP: "How is that over-defensive?

Or even defensive at all??

"

[icemanE]

I made a recap of the game... how is that over-defensive? Or are you just against anyone doing something that might cause them to find scum?

I'm not against that at all, since that's the point. But your's wasn't really a recap of the entire game, it was for the most part a history of everything everyone has been suspicious of you for and why they're wrong... i.e., defense.

[MafiaSSK]

If TSPN was focused on the game, then he could have mislynched Zeek on purpose, so that he could rely upon it and use it to protect his scumbuddy.

Scum Buddy? What scum buddy? I sincerely don't get what you are trying to say

It seemed to me, by the way they were acting that TSPN and Zeek were defending each other, sort of like scum would do.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Zeek: You have seriously overestimated your own importance. The mafia's objective is not to mislynch you and you alone. So they probably aren't all hopping on your wagon right away.

Iceman: Even if it wasn't zeek's style to overreact to attacks, the overdefensive tell still is useless.

MafiaSSK: Care to make an actual case? My vote stays.

[FaerieLord]

It seemed to me, by the way they were acting that TSPN and Zeek were defending each other, sort of like scum would do.

Sure...

Zeek, what do you have to say about misquoting me?

[Marmalade]

@Zeek:

(Deja vu): The problem is, zeek, is that

we don't know you're town.

And how easy is it for scum to make that argument? I don't have a problem with OMGUS votes (like, I hate it when I make a case on someone who's voted for me and they try to dismiss it with OMGUS), but when your lead argument is "they voted for me", to us, that's useless information, and its a bad argument. And people who make bad arguments tend to be scum. So, OMGUS is scummy. And definitely unconvincing.

Yeah, basically this. I couldn't really put it better myself.

Also, as scum your actions make sense, as you did it from the start, so it basically would allow your scumbuddies to slip by off your wagon.

That said, I'm kinda nervous that this is Zeek's playstyle. Other than what I have pointed out, I reiterate that the case against him is

not

all that convincing. I am going to read his long post and try and discern anything I can, but I'm pretty sure there are better targets out there.

Zeek, do you have any completed games?

[icemanE]

I'm pretty sure there are better targets out there.

If you could elaborate on that it would help, since Zeek has been the main target for the past few pages, with little focus on anyone else, so it would be nice to hear who you're referring to.

Additionally, I don't envision a Zeek lynch happening at this point, as the evidence against him isn't enough to convince those who haven't voted yet to do so. With that information in hand, it would be helpful to look at a vote history, and the voters reasoning behind their votes. I'll skip the random votes, which I think end around post 58, when Zeek first comes under fire.

Post 60: Cake votes Zeek: "If he had a valid reason to push for my lynch he wouldn't have earned my vote, pushing for a lynch with nothing to back it up doesn't seem very townlike to me."

Post 69: Marmalade votes Grease: "I don't like how he continues to random vote after we are quite clearly out of the random voting stage."

Post 73: Iceman votes Zeek: "He's rushed a lynch on Cake for no solid reason, which gives off scum vibes."

Post 75: TSPN votes mafiassk: "So, are you iceman's scumpartner or are you just buddying up?"

Post 89: TDC votes Zeek: "Your reasoning only makes sense if you are pretty certain of Cake's scumness. You have however not given even one argument, why that is and then go on and propose we lynch him. Care to elaborate?"

Post 105: Zeek votes iceman: "Basically, he's trying too hard to simply *appear* to be scumhunting without actually doing it, which I think is scummy."

Post 113: Nanosauromo votes Zeek: "Sorry Zeek, but saying "Let's lynch [insert name here] already!" on page 3 is pretty much the definition of rushing a lynch. You are lying, and the only people who have any reason to lie are scum."

Post 131: FaerieLord votes Zeek: "My case is about your over defensiveness."

Post 136: TSPN votes FaerieLord: "1. Blatant, blatant, rolefishing. Claim at L-2? Really?
2. Pushing the zeek lynch based on the "rushing" argument. Seriously, did anyone, including zeek, really think that saying "let's lynch cake" would speed anything up? I hope not.

Post 155: TSPN votes mafiaSSK: "My read on him is he's a blatant lurker who will just lurk unless we pressure him into playing."

Post 156: Johoonho votes mafiaSSK: "I agree with ThesweatpantsNinja."

Post 159: Lowell votes Grease: "His rushing to point out that mafiassk's post defending iceman (62) could be scum protecting each other just seems too opportunistic. And way too obvious to be true. There's no way I can sanely read that passage and convince myself that mafiassk just came out and openly asked others not to vote for his scumpartner. I can, however, make a big deal of it if I'm just trying to make it look like it matters. Which is what I think Greasy is doing. It's possible mafiassk IS scum and defending a townie, but that doesn't strike me as all that likely either."

Post 161: Zeek votes FaerieLord: "So basically you're admitting that you are scum and if I'm a vig you'd quicklynch me (to go "1 for 1")?"

Post 166: Grease votes Lowell: "hmm...opportunistic you say...Dude, the whole game is opportunistic. We pick apart what little tidbits of information and reactions we can until people break. So yes, I am opportunistic as well as everyone else that is playing this game. Bad Logic Lowell."

Post 205: Zeek votes Nanosauromo: "He really takes everything out of context here. The first quote was #55, and I never said anything to that effect (or any other effect to get people to vote for Cake) since. This just reeks of a player who has been inactive/lurking coming in, seeing who has the most votes, and then going back and finding a reason to vote for them."



That's the history, in my next post will be my analysis.

[icemanE]

A couple conclusions:

- Zeek has voted most, often without a truly solid reason to back it up, other than his most recent vote.

- Nano and Johoonho are clearly bandwagon voters. Nano comes in at post 113 and votes for Zeek based on what Cake and I have said much earlier in the game. Johoonho even admitted jumping on the mafiaSSK wagon. Nano's is much more suspicious, since TSPN's stated intention in starting the mafiassk wagon was to pressure him into playing, which Jo supported.

- Grease's vote in post 166 is unfounded.

- While Faerie's case against Zeek (i.e. he is over defensive) is certainly true and something I find suspicious, its not enough to warrant a lynch.


With a thorough reread of the game it is apparent that, while Zeek is quite suspicious, there is not enough evidence stacked up against him to justify a lynch... yet, but there is a good deal of suspicious material. I would unvote Zeek but he is currently in no apparent danger of being lynched, and I frequently look at this board, so if he gets too close I will probably pull my vote off until something very solid materializes.

Top suspects:

- Zeek and Nano

[Johoohno]

Okay, I’ve re-read the thread now. There is a lot to act on later in the game, which is excellent. Here are some thoughts and reflections so far:

@ CaptainCake:

I hope you’re okay, and that you feel up to join the game again. I want your input on what has happened since your last post. Otherwise I would like you to ask the mod for a replacement.

@ FaerieLord:

I agree with your case on Zeek (especially with the over defensive part), but I don’t agree with your repeated call for his role claim. A day one claim is not good at all, in my opinion. Smells role fishing to me.

@ Greasy Spot:

I disliked your play up to at least post 54, it didn’t contribute at all. Then there were a few scattered posts that actually made sense, and now you haven’t said anything of value for quite some time. More content please!

@ IcemanE:

I am a bit uncertain if you are a newbie or if you try to act like one. You’ve made some good and insightful posts (223 is one example), and you’ve made some newbie-looking posts too (in the start of the game plus 123). I also have a slight feeling of a changed play style after Zeek’s mentioning of Ice’s voting/fosing habits (105)

@ MafiaSSK:

Protects IcemanE (62), which makes me wonder if you are scum buddies. Your questions on scum buddying (218) kind of strengthens my view of MafiaSSK as a newbie scum. I want you to post more content, do an in-thread write up of your suspicions for instance. If you feel uncertain of the game I also recommend you to read at least one other finished game through (there are examples in my signature, or you could take the one ZeekLTK, TSPN and Lowell were in, or you could pick one random mini).

@ Marmalade:

Keeps kind of a low profile (though more active than me), and I find myself agreeing with most of what you say. Comes back to the policy reasoning often (not sure what to make of that). Seem to be a cautious player, not wanting to stick out.

@ Nanosauromo:

Okay, is it possible to lurk more than you do? Get in the game or get replaced. I also find post (15) laughable where you random vote MafiaSSK for posting too little in another game. Care to post more yourself? It is a bit fishy that you just follow others reasons in your vote on ZeekLTK. Bring your own view of the situation.

@ Lowell:

I like summaries (158) there is a lot to talk about in them. In that one I disagree with your take on 41, 88, 119 & 147. I also dislike your comment on Nanosaurmo being town in post (159), that’s a great way to make Nano post even less if he turns out to be scum.

@ TDC:

Tries to appear town a bit much in the beginning (89), tries to spread paranoia with your speculation on two scum groups (127). Is also kind of defensive in the retort to ZeekLTK (207).

@ ThesweatpantsNinja:

Isn’t really pursuing any scum, just voting MafiaSSK for lurking. Though I like your analytical side where you brush of Zeek as pro-town (181). What is it that makes you see him as pro-town?

@ ZeekLTK:

Don’t you see yourself as defensive? Almost all your posts are focused on responses to suspicions against yourself. Two players have already said it and I’ll do it too: Even if you’re town, you’re the only one that knows that (except for the scums), therefore you need to hunt scum in other areas but in the attacks against you, since a lot of them are, in my opinion, valid ones. Aim for other comments than those suspicious of you. Your summary (205) is an example of how everything is focused on you or attacks on you again. I really don’t like how you interpret posts (TDC #89 vote for you isn’t out of the blue, it comes along with the questions, I also like FaerieLord post #99, and below #117 you say that TDC’s questions never were answered, whereas I actually answered those for me in post 119, just to mention a few of them).

I’ve also noticed that you do vote hop some. Trying to find a person more likely to be lynched than yourself? This framing action is used here and there by you (in 107 & 198 for instance).

Summary:

My vote remains on Mafia for reasons mentioned above, and my FoS on ZeekLTK remains too. I still want CaptainCake, Greasy Spot, MafiaSSK and Nanosauromo to post some content (both on the ZeekLTK situation and general observations of the game, the posts and the players). When that has come (if ever?), and it hasn’t made me sway, I’ll support a Zeek lynch with a vote.

Mod: prod CaptainCake and Nanosauromo please