Mini 589: SSBB Smalltown Mafia (Game Over!)

[Lawrencelot]

I think I'll go with whatever character is left.

Damn you Flameaxe for taking my avatar's char.

[Lawrencelot]

Ok I'll be Link.

[Lawrencelot]

Vote: Dean Harper

. I am the only true swordsman here.

[Lawrencelot]

I'm gonna try to get some content. The random voting stage shouldn't last more than 2-3 pages.

Mario: this role is pretty dangerous in hands of SK or mafia.
Link: this role is useless for an SK. Mafia could make good use of it.
Kirby: pretty good for both Mafia and SK.
Pikachu: very good role for Mafia, as this action would always work, except when they target the SK, but if that happens they found the SK. This role isn't that good for the SK.
Fox: a bit dangerous in the hands of scum.
Samus: not dangerous in the hands of scum.
DK: useless in the hands of scum.
IC: very handy for mafia and SK, and not very handy for town, so we might consider lynching him regardless of alignment (if we have no clue for who the scum is).
Pit: useless for SK, a bit dangerous in the hands of mafia.
Ike: useless but dangerous in hands of SK, pretty dangerous in the hands of mafia.
Snake: pretty dangerous in hands of SK, and Mafia too.
Lucas: pretty dangerous in hands of Mafia, a bit less so in hands of the SK.

Hopes this helps. Correct me if wrong.

I have a feeling that there will be many kills each night btw, seeing all those 1-shot vigs.

[Lawrencelot]

It would be more useful if it didn't only list ONE role that would be bad for mafia, and that role is useless for pretty much everyone.

Unvote, Vote: Lawrencelot

No role-based killing plskthxbai.

Sorry but I don't think I understand your first sentence.

Why no role-based killing? If we had no clues who the scum were, we could just lynch Ice Climbers. Point is, we can just play normal mafia to find out who's scum, I only plan to use this if we have nothing better to use. And I posted it to get some discussion going.

[Lawrencelot]

Unvote; Vote: Flameaxe

. Like pickemgenius, he is playing a bit... how do you call it... not very serious. But peg's role sucks so his behaviour is explainable.

[Lawrencelot]

Unvote; Vote: Flameaxe

. Like pickemgenius, he is playing a bit... how do you call it... not very serious. But peg's role sucks so his behaviour is explainable.

“Not very serious”…so do you think he is playing scummy? Why is it ok for one player to be not serious but another to be? Seems to me that PEG’s role would give him the opportunity to really be aggressive during the day..why does his role suck?

If Flameaxe always plays like this, it is probably not scummy, but I don't know. Peg's role either sucks (as scum) or does not suck (as town), but if his role does not suck it does not allow him to play aggressively, so you're basically saying a contradiction. I often see people play less serious if their role is less... interesting.

[Lawrencelot]

Why does PEG's role make people think twice before hammering? Why would anyone be scared of hammering him? The only reason I could think for this is because his role sucks, but you say his role doesn't suck.

[Lawrencelot]

The bandwagon on AK is either ass-hole-ish, scummy, or fallacious. Maybe all 3. And James seems the most oppurtunistic of them all.

Unvote; Vote: Jamesthephox

.

[Lawrencelot]

OK guys, some game theory for starters.

Firstly, it occurs to me that goborage should declare his target before night falls. This will mean that the hider essentially becomes an investigative role- if gob dies, we know the target is scum. If Gob lives, we know those two players are of the same alignment (since scum could lie about having hidden behind scum, although that risks detection by the tracker).

Gob should not be roleblocked, and dahill1 should target the same player as Gob does. Why? Because this will prevent him from killing using either method if he's mafia. Since the poison ability negates the two protective roles, which can prevent any other kill, we don't want it used just yet.

Sounds good, but how can we be sure that no one else targets the same player as goborage and dahill1?

I would suggest we have everyone who has a night action claim in a random order tomorrow morning. There's an argument against this- scum knowing who the protective roles are minded to target is useful to them- but see the last smalltown, where the doctor role wasn't made to claim, and performed two of the three scumkills.

Can you elaborate on that doctor scenario, because I haven't read that game. The doctor was scum and performed 2 kills? How would it have made a difference if he had to claim his target? Wouldn't he just say he targeted someone innocent who did not die?

Link: this role is useless for an SK. Mafia could make good use of it.

It's actually a complete liability for mafia. I'd suggest we insist on its use- even though it's actually bad play for a town player to use it in isolation, it's even worse for a scum or SK player to use.

I'm not sure if I'm gonna use my power right away. I mean, I could target a role that's good for town, but if that player is scum and is vigged, we lose a lot.

Fox: a bit dangerous in the hands of scum.

Not so much- deters nightkills. Sure, it prevents viggings, but it's one-shot, and the possibility of its use can give scum fits. This is the role which most fits the doctor paradox- keeping quiet about whether it's been used or not is clearly optimal if the role is town, but allows a lot of leeway if scum. Thoughts?

I think it's better if he doesn't claim whether he used his power or not. It's better that scum doesn't know it, then that town does know it. If we think he's scum we can always lynch him. I think it's best if a protown player with a NK doesn't target him at all, while Ike for example should not be lynched at all (or we should set up some plan with a scum hammering or something).

Samus: not dangerous in the hands of scum.

Yup, in fact a liability since it has to be used.

You mean, because we're claiming our targets? I didn't think of that. Well I think Samus-scum could just use the scum kill and claim an innocent on his scum-buddy.

Ike: useless but dangerous in hands of SK, pretty dangerous in the hands of mafia.

My own role: effectively requires town to double-lynch if it wants to kill me. Benefits whichever side it's on, tbh.

You don't need to be double-lynched. Or did I read it the wrong way?

I have a feeling that there will be many kills each night btw, seeing all those 1-shot vigs.

You mean, two? Just because vig abilities exist, doesn't require their use.

And Mario, and Ike's counter, and the Mafia kill and the SK kill. This could result in 6 deaths in 24 game-hours, theoretically speaking. And with Pika's role, make that 7.

[Lawrencelot]

Pst, AK, we're claiming AFTER we perform the night actions.

Except for Dahill and goborage, if everybody agrees with Fonz's plan. I'm fine with claiming my night action.

[Lawrencelot]

Another thought- we should probably direct AK to target gob tonight as well.

Not smart if AK is town, because gob could die with his own action.

I don't know what's the best play for ckd.

[Lawrencelot]

I don't really understand AK's play.

FOS: AK

. I would switch my vote if he didn't already have 3.

[Lawrencelot]

I don't really understand AK's play.

FOS: AK

. I would switch my vote if he didn't already have 3.

what is your point? who cares if he has three?

I do. Some actions are worth to be lynched for, some are worth 1-2 votes. His latest action was worth 1-2 votes in my opinion, and I also don't like the wagon on him, although 3 votes is not risky yet.

[Lawrencelot]

if I meta you, will I find that you usually have a different style of play in other games? might as well tell us why it is different in this game.

What do you mean? My play is indeed different in all games though, but there are similarities.

[Lawrencelot]

my meaning is this..will I find you not joining (voting) a bandwagon day one because someone already has three votes. You are casting suspicion his way, but dont want to switch your vote..I find this suspicious...it looks like you are trying too hard to look town or cautious. Four votes is nothing in this game and you should know this.

will I find you doing this type of thing in other games?...I will I find you doing the direct opposite...I would like your answer before I look.

if I ever get time, I will meta this.

Most times I am a very cautious player, yes. At least as town. But voting AK would also require me to change my vote, meaning that I would think he is scummier than JTP. Maybe you forgot, but I actually voted James because of the wagon on AK. And the fact that AK already had 3 votes was just an extra reason not to vote him, because 4 votes has kind of the same effect as 3, unless he needs to be lynched.

[Lawrencelot]

VOTE: MAFIASSK

this is a good vote for now.

May I ask why your voting me? True, I'm not participating much but I don't see what to talk ABOUT.

because you jumped on the AK wagon with bad reasoning
i'm fine with either a MafiaSSK or AK lynch today

dahill needs to stop stealing posts from me.

grr.

I was just about to point out that I find it noticeable that he answers for you. Tie noted.

[Lawrencelot]

yea... lets lynch teh foo

Yeah it's not like he'd die if we lynch him

I agree that a couple of weeks is too much though. Let's let the mod decide.

This entire conversation is confusing the HELL out of me. Can someone other than AK and PEG tell me what the heck people are even talking about?

There is a case on AK going on, and on MafiaSSK, and me and Fonz and some others are discussing what should happen at night, though it looks Fonz has a better grasp on it. I accused dahill of answering something asked to peg. Some people are V/LA.

[Lawrencelot]

These are the posts in which people joined the AK wagon:

unvote vote AK

unvote, vote AK

....that is a crap fest idea waiting to happen.

unvote, vote AK

....that is a crap fest idea waiting to happen.

I have to agree with you.

Unvote,Vote:AK

p.s. "going through" assholes and non con lurkers is fucking terrible. YOU LYNCH WHO THE SCUMMIEST ALWAYS.

fuck people(gorrad,AK). lynching non con lurkers and assholes isnt how you win games.... fucking a.

QFT. Why would town ever want to lynch anyone else BUT scum? Personal dislike/hatred for someone's personality/playstyle should be left at the sign-in thread.

Unvote; Vote: AK

MafiaSSK's vote seems scummy indeed. But actually all of them look scummy on first sight. Dahill doesn't give a reason for his vote, yet his vote does not feel very scummy for me if I take a closer look. ckd's and MafiaSSK's votes look a bit more... opportunistic. But James's vote gives me an awkward feeling. I think, if AK is town, James has good chance to be scum, but it doesn't look like bussing so I don't think they're both scum. AK's lynch would provide us with some info, but we're not in a rush.

Unvote

.

Fonz, why do you think MafiaSSK's action is scummier than ckd's?

[Lawrencelot]

ckd's and MafiaSSK's votes look a bit more... opportunistic.
Fonz, why do you think MafiaSSK's action is scummier than ckd's?

first of all, I would like you explain my vote. I would like to hear your perception of it. then, explain why my vote was opportunistic. Once you do that, explain my unvote after I checked back in to see a couple votes after mine. Then explain how it is opportunistic when we dont even know the alignment of AK yet...do you know something that we dont?

then explain this vote.

Vote Lawrencelot

, I dont think I have liked any of your posts since this game has started.

Gladly, although I would prefer you explain it yourself.
1) you vote because you don't agree with Gorrad's style. It is an explanation, but not a good one, and definately not worth a vote from my point of view. By looking at the votes only, it seems you wanted to follow Gorrad, or that MafiaSSK wanted to follow you. It seemed opportunistic because, although AK might be scum, the reasons for voting him were crap. Your unvote: it is like 20 posts after the latest vote (of James) on AK that you unvote him, while you did post earlier after James's vote, so I'm not really convinced. Besides, AK's behaviour on page 8 looked very scummy to me, but maybe you were bussing. Yet, I don't think you're more scummy than the others who were voting AK, and they can't all be scum, but I'm pretty sure one of those on the AK wagon is scum. Maybe it's just MafiaSSK, he is repeating others a lot, said he would post his thought on page 7, and didn't give any, and on page 9 he says he doesn't post a lot because there's nothing to comment on.

Vote: MafiaSSK

.

[Lawrencelot]

Heh, I think I got off track there. 2?) I don't understand your vote on me. You should explain it yourself, because I did like my posts since this game started

[Lawrencelot]

do you mean "justify" doing anything or "verify" doing anything?

Verify...why would I write one word when I mean another?

Because you're from Canada...

I am against telling whether I use my target or not. It's too much benefit for scum.

[Lawrencelot]

I think the talk about what people are going to do tonight should end NOW.

but wasn't everyone going to decide who we (me and Gob) target? how else will we target the same person?

We weren't going to talk about it. We were going to randomise it amongst the non-useful roles. I'd do it immediately, but JTP is on the list of possible investigations, and we may yet lynch him.

@CKD: I've made the case for why I think we should direct Gob, dahill, and AK, and I'm sticking by it. THey definitely should not 'just target whoever they think is best' because that gives them far more leeway to get away with lying.

In that case, why don't you think my action should be directed? I don't really understand why you want me to use my power, you do realize it could turn out pretty bad for town right, at least compared to the tracker role for example? I'll just use my power if there is someone who I think has a high enough chance to be protown, and has a more useful role for town than I have.

[Lawrencelot]

jesus, I hate Lance's last post and I am glad my vote is on him....

why do I have a feeling he will be using this excuse like a crutch tomorrow.

I'll just use my power if there is someone who I think has a high enough chance to be protown,

If I use it as an excuse, why not lynch me when that happens? It's not like it's a valid excuse anyway... at least not if there are protown looking people.

it is my understanding of a body guard that Lance dies only if somone tries to kill the person he is protecting..right?

Hm, now I'm starting to doubt.

Mod: do I die if I protect someone who is not targeted?

Hmmm....I misunderstood. Ok, I can see a case for that. Lawrence, why is it a bad idea for you to use your power on someone you choose every night?

Because I don't always know who is protown. I can guess, but so can the scum. My question was, if you all force me to protect, why not choose a target for me as well? (if you say: so you can explain your actions, then why force me to protect anyway?) Scum benefits from knowing that I will use my action. So maybe it's better if town knows more. I didn't think a lot about this though.

[Lawrencelot]

So what have we reached a consensus on? I'm guessing everyone is OK with me and Mario targeting a guy. I'm also guessing that everyone is OK with night actions being claimed on D2. Anything else?

I still don't know if everyone agrees wiith Fonz that I should target someone. It depends on the mod's answer to my question, obviously.

[Lawrencelot]

Right, what are the conclusions:
If goborage targeted Fonz, Fonz is confirmed. We know for sure at least 2 people targeted Fonz, because dahill targeted him and Fonz increased in size. In the unlikely scenario that Fonz is scum, goborage must be scum too and targeted someone else or no one, hoping that someone besides Gorrad would target Fonz (which wasn't that unlikely though). I will assume that Fonz is town from now on, until there's reason not to.

Welcome iamausername. Your post looks good to me.

[Lawrencelot]

No acces until Sunday.

[Lawrencelot]

I don't agree with Gorrad, but I don't find him scummy for attacking AK either. I don't like AK's behaviour, but sometimes he makes sense. Between Gorrad and AK, I think AK is more likely to be scum, but I don't know yet who I find the scummiest of the others.

Who's turn is it to claim? Well since others didn't follow the order either: I protected the Fonz. He was very protown even before this Night, yet a logical target for scum. Didn't want to protect someone like Flameaxe, because I was less sure about their alignment.

If neither of our vigs used their kills, it's probably safe to assume ckd was the mafia's kill and Flameaxe the SK's, because the SK's kill is untraceable, so he'd have no reason to off the tracker. Not sure how much it helps us to know this, though.

Good catch. I didn't know the SK's kill was untraceable. Still possible that it's the other way around, but let's just assume you're right about this.

[Lawrencelot]

At the moment Gorrad and AK are at the top of my scumlist.

Mod, can we get a votecount please?

. I'll vote one of these two later, but I need to check which one is more scummy.

[Lawrencelot]

I find AK scummy for his behaviour, and Gorrad for his action.

@The Fonz: where did you insist that no one should target you again? I think I missed it. However, you did insist that I should use my action. I was the most sure about you being town, for the others there was too much uncertainty. And if I should use my action, I'd rather use it on the one who's the most protown instead of the most useful role.

[Lawrencelot]

I don't believe AK is scum, because of what happened with SSK yesterday.

Could you elaborate on this?

[Lawrencelot]

I don't think we should automatically rule out dahill/goborage as suspects just because they have accounted for night actions. If they're mafia, they have a partner who could have performed the kill, and if they're SK, they could have performed the kill as well as their role-based actions.

I mean, it's very useful to have them confirming a player as town every night, certainly, but as the game goes on, it will become more and more dangerous to let them coast through on this basis as if they're confirmed town themselves.

That's true. I am only assuming the Fonz is town, because although he is not confirmed, he's very close to being that.

[Lawrencelot]

Unvote; vote Gorrad

. I'm usually not into wifom arguments, but what he said here is, like AK said, 100% wifom.

[Lawrencelot]

Gorrad's last posts don't convince me of him not being scum. Mod: can we have a votecount?

[Lawrencelot]

I think I'm losing track of this game. Can gob or iamausername tell me what the case on andersonw is?

[Lawrencelot]

Gorrad's chances of being town: still dropping...

[Lawrencelot]

I asked why we wouldn't let the town assign me a target D1, but I forgot what the answer was. Anyway, I expect I'm free to choose again? I don't understand a thing about Gob's post about the BG, btw. How is a normal doc partly an investigative role, he doesn't know if he succesfully protected someone... That being said, I understand even less of Gorrad's latest play, and I am very surprised that he was not today's lynch.

[Lawrencelot]

I'm confused too. Three kills: the SK's kill is nothing special, so whether iama is the SK or mafia or not has nothing to do with 3 kills. Apart from that, the third kill can have been caused by: Gorrad's role, or Goborage hiding with scum. Goborage probably hid with iama, and iama just claimed SK, so I guess he is the SK then? I think Gorrad is the last mafia then, he just messed up by saying he blocked iama which isn't possible if iama is the SK. Gorrad being mafia only follows from iamausername being SK, so if we lynch one of the two we better lynch iamausername.

Voting iamausername soon.

[Lawrencelot]

Stop with the plan! Ok, iama is the SK. Let's say we did perform this plan, so dahill poisons Gorrad and Gorrad kills me. Then, if:
1) I'm scum: town wins
2) Gorrad is scum: town wins
3) dahill is scum: scum wins

I don't think we can risk this. Let me try to think of a way around this. In any case, dahill should poison Gorrad.

[Lawrencelot]

If dahill poisons Gorrad and Gorrad kills dahill, then, if:
1) I'm scum: scum wins
2) Gorrad is scum: town wins
3) dahill is scum: town wins.

Hm, also 2/3 chance...

[Lawrencelot]

Gah. Why did Gorrad hammer iama so soon... he's most probably scum, so either plan will work.

[Lawrencelot]

Wait, iama isn't dead yet! Gorrad, you forgot about his role (and so did others?)

[Lawrencelot]

Ok let's see. dahill poisons Gorrad, and Gorrad kills me, and mafia kills iama. Then, if:
1) I'm scum: town wins
2) Gorrad is scum: iama wins
3) dahill is scum: iama wins

Dahill poisons Gorrad, and Gorrad kills dahill, and mafia kills iama. Then, if:
1): I'm scum: town wins
2) Gorrad is scum: iama wins
3) dahill is scum: iama wins

Someone needs to kill iama!

[Lawrencelot]

Oh I forgot iama's kill. Now I don't know the best options anymore.
If dahill is scum: iama should kill dahill, Gorrad should kill iama.
If Gorrad is scum: iama should kill Gorrad, dahill should poison iama.
If I'm scum: iama should kill me, Gorrad or dahill should kill iama.

But we can't rely on iama. Hm...

[Lawrencelot]

Ok let's do it this way. I hope iama wants the town to win, rather than the mafia, but they played like crap anyway. Iamausername targets dahill. Gorrad kills iamausername. Dahill kills gorrad.

If dahill is town, and he thinks that I'm scum rather than Gorrad, he targets me. I'd rather let the least scummy player decide who's going to win, than the SK or Gorrad.

And sorry for the x-tuple posting.

[Lawrencelot]

dahill is not mafia. Iam claimed SK, so he's probably SK. Thus, dahill is town. Gorrad, as a mafia, has to kill iamausername, the SK, in order to win. If he doesn't, iamausername will probably win. As long as dahill kills Gorrad and Gorrad kills iamausername, I think the town will win. Gorrad, you don't want the SK to win, do you?

When I'm the SK, I always prefer scum wins to town wins. Same as when there's multiple scumgroups- i consider a town win the worst outcome.

Why's that? When I'm the SK and I have a choice, I let those win who deserve to. There's no point in letting the scum win, town win is no worse outcome than scum win when you're SK. And in this game, the scum sucked, I'd eat my hat if they win this game.

[Lawrencelot]

Gorrad, you don't need to target two people, you just have to target iamausername, ok? Whether it is with your mafia kill or the other kill, that doesn't matter.

Dahill, you kill Gorrad ok? Then we don't have to depend on iamausername for us to win. If Fonz stays alive, town will win if the mafia and SK are dead.

[Lawrencelot]

Wait, iama isn't dead yet! Gorrad, you forgot about his role (and so did others?)

Damn, you're right. That totally slipped my mind.

I love how Lawrencelot's ultimate conclusion is that, even with my kill being directed, he should be left alive. That's brilliant.

If you want me dead, you can use your kill on either me or the Fonz, that doesn't matter. Either way, one of me and Fonz stay alive, and you'll lose. Nanananana

[Lawrencelot]

Good game. I don't know what CKD is talking about, because I thought my buddies were way more scummy than me. It was obvious MafiaSSK was mafia, anderson less so. Town should have won this game, I tried my best to turn the game to my hand when my buddies were dead, but the SK ruined it . Good job, iamausername. Would like to see a list of night actions though.

[Lawrencelot]

So that's why Gorrad's roleblock didn't have effect: me and iamausername had the same target.