Newbie 595 - Game Over!

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Final Day 1 Vote Count

snaoo - 1 (massive)
Muerrto - 1 (snafoo)

Mike4876 - 5 (Super Archivist, Walnut, q21, Litral, Muerrto)

Not Voting - 2 (mike4876, starkmoon)

5 to Lynch

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Debate continues, and you suddenly notice that Mike isn't present.

He's hiding something, you all decide. You move as a group to his house, only to find him sitting on the front porch, a pistol in his hand.

"I can't do it", says Mike, turning the gun on himself and ending his life.

I guess sometimes the Mafia have a soft spot...

Mike4876

,

Mafia Goon

, Lynched Day 1

Night has begun. Those of you with night actions must submit your choices by Thursday, April 24th.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Alas, poor Walnut, you were not meant for this world. Pretty evident considering all the blood from the gunshot wound...

Walnut,

Townie

, Killed Night 1

Day 2 has begun. With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

[Litral]

Walnut, give us your blessings. It was really fun playing with you, and I hope to meet you in another game.

MOD: Really funny description.

It is time that we reviewed the events of yesterday.

My refusal to lynch Mike is suspicious, I admit. I offer my argument here: I believe that lynching someone purely due to not posting ruins the game and is not likely to help us find scum. It is very possible that he was just bored with getting a townie PM and refused to post. In fact, if I were scum, I really had no reason to listen to your impatience, as I'm sure the other 3 people on the bandwagon did so just to pressure him; I allowed you to hammer him because I wanted you to take the responsibility if he turned out town.

I will also say that I am not at all pleased with having lynched someone who didn't talk, even if he did turn out to be scum. This is because it is now extremely difficult to find bits and pieces from the lynched scum's words in order to link to the other one. I blame mike.

@starkmoon, snafoo and massive: Post please, kthxbai.

@snafoo: Note that your "pairing argument" no longer works in incriminating massive. I'd love to see another post carefully analyzing everyone's posts.

@Muerrto: Again, this means that my defense of snafoo is no longer suspicious. Also, please explain clearly why you think only scum wouldn't post at all, not even in the random voting stage. I'd also ask you to explain why you voted snafoo once and for all.

Something for you to chew on too.

Things never, ever to do in a mafia game, if you want to win, from bad to worst:

1. Bad. Get frustrated and stop posting.

2. Worse. Actually say "I'm frustrated, I'm going to just stop posting".

3. Worse yet: Say "Just go ahead and lynch me". There's never a good reason to say this, and there's certanly no logical reason for you to give up now; you're not even the #1 suspect based on votes at the moment , I think (although I could be wrong, this game is moving so fast).

Shrug kill me then, lately almost all my newbie games have been newbies trying to teach ME how to play...and being wrong.

Since this lesson is from someone no less than Yosarian2 himself, I think you should accept it.

@SA: I wish you would start telling us who you suspect. It is extremely necessary for the town to hear everyone's suspicions. I'm sure you know why.

@q21: If I ever use that quote against you, I will cut off my penis.

As far now, the strongest scumtell I could find is in Muerrto.

I try to impart that knowledge to the people I play with but most newbies, like the ones here, are more interested in assuming they know better and questioning the IC judgment.

The scumtell is called "appealing to authority". It also sucks so much as a general statement.

Several other strange posts:

What will we have to go on? The mafia hasn't done anything yet...

I guess you could say this is a newbie asking advice. But I find it strange. Plus, several of SA's "newbie questions" contradicted with each other, such as post 11 asking what the purpose of random voting is, and post 13 immediately sticking a random vote on someone while still ostensibly not knowing what random voting is supposed to be.

Your quote: "I didn't change my vote so I could kick another defenseless kitten this time (although I'm spineless enough to do so anytime)."

My interpretation: "I'm willing to go ahead and vote for any person, even if no reason is given for said person's bandwagon."

My long-winded interpretation: "In this specific ocassion, I did not change my vote simply to vote for someone who cannot defend himself, be it due to his or her absence from the game, or due to the fact that the evidence stacked against said person is either irrefutable or complete and utter garbage. But I withhold, for the future, my ability to do so, and consider yourself warned that I am willing to do so. I am willing to bandwagon onto trains that have no meaning, I am willing to vote for people who should be replaced, I am willing to pretty much just vote my whim. Remember this in the future when you try to lynch me for my voting habits."

massive: you have so far casted suspicion on no one except snafoo, and focused on only ONE sentence which, to me, is obviously a joke. I think you should start analyzing everyone else's posts in order to contribute.

The others simply haven't posted enough for me to be certain.

That said:

vote: Muerrto

. His other scumtells are stated below.

Tell me what about being an IC makes us more or less likely to be scum and I'll vote myself...

Until then

Unvote, Vote: Snafoo

An OMGUS vote. Muerrto still hasn't explained why snafoo was suspicious, or more suspicious than Demonking.

Scum don't care who dies as long as it's not them. They try to convince everyone that everyone else is scummy. Causing paranoia is an excellent scum tactic. If everyone's acting scummy for one reason or another, votes will be flying more.

I find this to be strange. It is necessary for town to keep an eye on everyone; missing scum is dangerous and could give them tickets to the endgame. Any dubious action should be brought out into the open. If you only throw arguments against whomever you're voting right now, you give yourself an aura of certainty which only scum has. Muerrto seems to be trying to justify this aura of certainty.

Analysing posts too deeply leads to mislynches. You have to know/figure out with experience what's a scum tell, what's legit, and when to argue a case and when to not.

This was written in a period of frustration when I attacked Muerrto for providing weak reasons for voting snafoo. Muerrto was trying to trivialize my arguments by saying that I am inexperienced.

There. Not semantics at all. Want to respond?

Not particularly.

Not explaining yourself is never good for town. If you're frustrated, you should take a deep breath, drink some tea, meditate, zenify, kill some bastards in a video game (it's very satisfying), and then come back. My argument was that him abandoning the Demonking wagon made no sense for a townie, and this was the entirety of his response.

That is all I can gather. I think if Muerrto can explain why he wanted to hammer mike, that'll count as a point for him. The non-posters follow Muerrto on my list of suspicion for now.

[massive]

I'm not on the internetz on the weekend. That whole thing happened without me. I would have voted Mike as well.

I don't see anything suspicious about Muerrto hammering Mike. He was the one who started that bandwagon, back on page five.

My vote for snafoo was not because of "one statement" as you seem to think, but due to his willingness to follow a bandwagon with little or no reason. The statement is merely him confirming it. I consider the desire to recklessly bandwagon a scum tell -- town has much more reason to be careful where their votes are, while the Mafia don't care WHO get lynched, as long as someone does.

He disappeared, or I would have expected to see him on the Mike bandwagon. I'm hoping he'll return and explain his absence, but I haven't seen anything that's going to make me go anywhere other than back to him.

[Muerrto]

Wow. I thought I'd have to wait a few days for the scum to leap out of the gate...

So Litral...Mike wasn't just NOT POSTING!!! We've been over this and OVER this. He picked up his prod. Let's analyze that in detail, shall we?

Picking up his prod means:

A. He came to the site.

B. He logged in if not automatically set to

C. He clicked on his messages.

D. He opened the message.


This is NOT something you go 'oops' and click a bunch of buttons. He was WATCHING THE THREAD and not posting. It's the worst possible scum tactic and the most used by newbies, period.

Not only did you go above and beyond hesitating to lynch him, you also refused to hammer. Now, how exactly would you voting him as the third vote and me hammering place suspiscion on me? When you voted you already knew I was going to place the 4th vote as soon as you did, I TOLD you! So you basically hammered, except that your extreme reluctance to was noted.

Then you leap out of the gate trying to throw suspiscion on me, the person who'd been trying to get Mike lynched for days? You wanted a replacment so you wouldn't automatically lose your partner. You should've dumped him long ago, never cling to a sinking ship.

GG.

Vote: Litral

I just finished this exact same game where the first scum lurked and the second scum clung desperately and they both went down, perfect town win.

[Litral]

I have in no way said that you are guilty because you hammered Mike. Please read my post again. Also, I wanted to see your explanation to hammering him; that is the reaction I saw and I am satisfied.

[Litral]

@massive: Thanks for the explanation, please begin to suspect people.

[Muerrto]

I have in no way said that you are guilty because you hammered Mike.

Really? Are you sure?

I allowed you to hammer him because I wanted you to take the responsibility if he turned out town.

Soo...

Can you explain why you being vote 3 and me 4 and not vice versa would place it on me and not you since you knew by placing the third vote he'd be hammered?

If you weren't ok with him being hammered, why'd you place the third vote? Voting someone to make others happy is an excellent scum tell.

Also, can you please address the 'not posting' v. 'picked up his prod'? You haven't...

[Litral]

I have in no way said that you are guilty because you hammered Mike.

Really? Are you sure?

Yes. Didn't even bother reading it, did you? Or are you trivializing the scumtells I found on you?

My last statement was used to goad a reaction from you. It did not imply you were suspicious because of hammering Mike (which is craplogic). Seriously, read it before you post gibberish.

I have stated my opinion on "not posting" v. "picking up his prod". I know he picked up his prod. I, however, did not support a lynch on him for two reasons. First of all, he may very likely be villie hating his role and content with just reading other games (as I was for quite a while); he may have just clicked instinctively and neglected it; there may be a little brother involved; etc. Second of all, and most importantly, it ruins the game, and I want my newbie game to be a full and healthy one where everyone participates.

I did not know that he had actually written a PM at any point, or I would've definitely hammered him for actively pursuing a strategy of lurking (which I didn't believe he did). Due to both not believing he's definitely scum and not wanting to ruin the game, I gave you the chance to do so. If he turned out town, it would be obvious what you were doing. And I wouldn't feel guilty for finishing day 1 so abruptly.

Also, it's the fourth and fifth vote.

This was a question you should've asked yesterday, not as an OMGUS.

[Litral]

So, okay, we now know the following things from Muerrto's reaction.
1) Muerrto has not read my post or the details of any of the scumtells I found on him. Why? The only reason is that such information is completely irrelevant to him. He does not need to defend himself in order to help the town reach an informed decision. He just has to attack someone ferociously enough and say "oops" tomorrow. Extremely anti-town and unhelpful thoroughly.
2) Muerrto decided to vote for me despite not having read my post and accusations of him at all. If this isn't OMGUS in its pure materia form, I don't know what is.

Unless something else pops up I'm happy with where my vote is.

[q21]

@Litral - Your saying that you wanted a full game where everyone posts... fair enough, in and of itself. But offering it as an explanation for not wanting to lynch a lurker is backwards. Surely if you want a game where the players post you would be more than happy to kill the non-contributors early? That way the game has active participants longer.

From post 126 I felt you were trying to slow the Mike lynch. You claimed that was just my misunderstanding you and I believed you. I would have left it at that if you hadn't then gone on to hesitate so notably over hammering him, going so far as to ask for a replacement instead of hammering.

I still harbour some suspicion for snafoo in that he was willing to vote for just about anyone. Most notably so in the case of my former self, Demonking, who snafoo even claimed he thought to be townie. (see post 60)

More in-depth analysis will need to wait until weekend when I have time to reread. For now I don't intend to vote until the remaining lurkers, especially starkmoon, have contributed more.

[Litral]

I truly had no idea he was actively lurking; no one knows why the hell one signs up for games and don't play, and I thought he was in this category. I will also admit that I do not have a full comprehension of the prod system, as I thought visiting the site would automatically trigger receiving the prod.

However, I didn't want to lynch the non-poster, I wanted to replace him, exactly because of wanting a full game where everyone posts. If I received confirmation once more that he will not be replaced, I would also have hammered him. As it happens, this is not true.

q21, would you have hammered him? You yourself asked for no one to hammer him until he had a chance to speak. I was acting on the same principle.

If I were lying with my explanation of post 126 then I was scum trying to derail the bandwagon. I would definitely not be looking at whether or not you have unvoted in order to explain my post; I would say things like not wanting someone to accidentally hammer him, etc. The fact that I knew you didn't unvote for Walnut when I posted that shows my innocence.

[Muerrto]

So, okay, we now know the following things from Muerrto's reaction.
1) Muerrto has not read my post or the details of any of the scumtells I found on him. Why? The only reason is that such information is completely irrelevant to him. He does not need to defend himself in order to help the town reach an informed decision. He just has to attack someone ferociously enough and say "oops" tomorrow. Extremely anti-town and unhelpful thoroughly.
2) Muerrto decided to vote for me despite not having read my post and accusations of him at all. If this isn't OMGUS in its pure materia form, I don't know what is.

Unless something else pops up I'm happy with where my vote is.

Cease and desist with the personal attacks. My posts aren't 'gibberish', I read every word you said, I believed none of it. You played badly, deal with it and move on. If you're not lynched today I'll be floored and if you're not scum I'd say read over some more games before you play again.

Last I'll address this issue because I'm not getting into another argument with a newbie because they think they know how to play...

[Litral]

Cease and desist with the personal attacks. My posts aren't 'gibberish', I read every word you said, I believed none of it. You played badly, deal with it and move on. If you're not lynched today I'll be floored and if you're not scum I'd say read over some more games before you play again.

Last I'll address this issue because I'm not getting into another argument with a newbie because they think they know how to play...

Look, this is the last time you're going to be insulting my playstyle. If you don't have an argument, stop posting. It is obvious that you did not read my post because you thought I was accusing you of hammering Mike, which is absolutely untrue.

[Muerrto]

EBWOP: Oh and I was saying lynch me knowing it would help the town from the info, very different from your quote. Since this isn't LYLO if you guys want to kill me you can if you'll take Litral next. See if he'll give you that same opportunity...

[q21]

I truly had no idea he was actively lurking; no one knows why the hell one signs up for games and don't play, and I thought he was in this category. I will also admit that I do not have a full comprehension of the prod system, as I thought visiting the site would automatically trigger receiving the prod.

However, I didn't want to lynch the non-poster, I wanted to replace him, exactly because of wanting a full game where everyone posts. If I received confirmation once more that he will not be replaced, I would also have hammered him. As it happens, this is not true.

q21, would you have hammered him? You yourself asked for no one to hammer him until he had a chance to speak. I was acting on the same principle.

If I were lying with my explanation of post 126 then I was scum trying to derail the bandwagon. I would definitely not be looking at whether or not you have unvoted in order to explain my post; I would say things like not wanting someone to accidentally hammer him, etc. The fact that I knew you didn't unvote for Walnut when I posted that shows my innocence.

Yes, I'd have lynched him. I'd have waited till Monday on the possibility that he could only post on weekdays, then I'd have hammered his ass. I would have said this in thread. I would not have asked for him to be replaced. See this post from Vel:

Dear Modding Vel, I realize it's really unfair to ask this of you right now since you're busy with the kid and work, but can we get replacements for both

Mike4876

and

Demonking

when you're free? The first has never posted, even after picking up his prod, and the second has been inactive for one entire week, even under huge pressure.

Demonking has already been prodded, but never picked it up, so I'm replacing him. Don't hold your breath, I'm already looking for 3 other replacements and nothing so far

Mike is your (the players') problem. I can't force someone to post, all I can do is prod them.

It quite clearly stated that Mike was our problem. There is a good possibility you were trying to get a replacement for your scumbuddie.

[Litral]

@Muerrto: THERE. Finally decided to respond to one of the points, didn't you?

I will counter your argument, as we should be doing in a mafia game instead of CLAIMING SUPERIORITY. And don't say I'm the one starting a superiority contest, just look at your own friggin' posts.

In no way will a mislynch ever help the town with info. Remember that there's only 1 scum now so at least 3 townies will be voting you. The fact that you promote such a mislynch is a huge scumtell, because you're working with reverse psychology, and that's the only explanation for it. Proving yourself right by getting lynched is not a good idea.

I have responded to all the points that have been sensibly brought forth to me, mainly concerning my reluctance to hammer someone who I felt we should've replaced instead. I do so in order to convince the townies that I should not be their lynch. The fact that you won't even care to, instead using:

1) Appeal to authority. About three times.
2) Appeal to emotion.
3) "Just lynch me" playstyle

combines into a myriad of scumtells of such epic proportions.

[Muerrto]

Look, this is the last time you're going to be insulting my playstyle.

Ok...this happens in almost every newbie game. I never insulted your playing style. You're in a newbie game for a reason, you're new to this site. If you don't like being in newbie games and being considered a newbie, don't play them.

When you make a bad play or a bad argument, as an IC, I tell you so. No one's insulting you. You however, have insulted me personally multiple times. It's annoying and immature.

If you don't want to be 'taught' go play other games and don't play newbie games. If you want to learn how to play better, play newbie games and take criticism better, period.

I've never once insulted you or your playstyle. You made an obvious bad play as pointed out by Q21 as well and you did in fact try to throw suspiscion for the hammer on me despite what you claim and you've been called on that by Massive.

So if I'm not the only one seeing these, why are you attacking me so vehemently?

My vote stands till someone's dead. I won't post in a thread where I'm insulted constantly. If this is your 'scum playstyle' change it. It won't win you any friends.

[Litral]

Tell me when I have insulted you, ever. However, you have definitely insulted my playstyle. Look:

Last I'll address this issue because I'm not getting into another argument with a newbie because they think they know how to play...

I don't know how to play? Is that the best you could come up with?

I try to impart that knowledge to the people I play with but most newbies, like the ones here, are more interested in assuming they know better and questioning the IC judgment.

I definitely don't know better, huh? Yay, me, the newbie!

Did I ever even mention being right because I'm an IC?

Yes. As I said on another thread, if Emeril told you how to cook something, you'd listen, yes?

Uh huh!

Don't post then. Less headache for me.

[Litral]

Ok...this happens in almost every newbie game.

You think there's a reason for it?

[Muerrto]

Sigh..Litral posted again

Unvote, Vote: Muerrto

Kill me seriously. If this is just a scum gambit then the town wins.

Massive, Q21, please place a vote. This is not an appeal to emotion.

There are many times where a mislynch can give info to the town and if you think there isn't then you prove my point about learning.

[Litral]

Good. Let's see that shall we? Your point is that we'll mislynch you today. This will, somehow, give us so much information that we will know who's scum tomorrow. Me! Why don't you actually start giving arguments if you really believe I'm so scummy?

[q21]

@Muerrto: THERE. Finally decided to respond to one of the points, didn't you?

I will counter your argument, as we should be doing in a mafia game instead of CLAIMING SUPERIORITY. And don't say I'm the one starting a superiority contest, just look at your own friggin' posts.

In no way will a mislynch ever help the town with info. Remember that there's only 1 scum now so at least 3 townies will be voting you. The fact that you promote such a mislynch is a huge scumtell, because you're working with reverse psychology, and that's the only explanation for it. Proving yourself right by getting lynched is not a good idea.

I have responded to all the points that have been sensibly brought forth to me, mainly concerning my reluctance to hammer someone who I felt we should've replaced instead. I do so in order to convince the townies that I should not be their lynch. The fact that you won't even care to, instead using:

1) Appeal to authority. About three times.
2) Appeal to emotion.
3) "Just lynch me" playstyle

combines into a myriad of scumtells of such epic proportions.

Something that I think needs to be mentioned. When you call on your own experience as Muerrto has its not an Appeal to Authority... its calling on your own experience. Quoting Yosarian2 was an appeal to authority. Also it is not necessarily a scumtell. Read this.

I'm not going to kill just because Litral is annoying you. As I said I don't intend to vote until the some, less loquacious, players post... at least for a little while.

q21, hates lurkers

[Litral]

Very well. I, however, did not quote Yosarian2 to say that Muerrto is scum; that was not one of the scumtells I found in him. Therefore I was not appealing to authority in order to lynch him, and I see why neither was he. I have my terminology wrong.