Dynamite Stick Mafia! GAME OVER

[Erg0]

Sorry, retracted - I hadn't quite grasped the situation when I posted that. I still think you should blow up the right person, though.

[Claus]

Yeah; I'm still waiting for Claus to answer my questions and respond to my latest post. I explained why I think he's scummy, ask him to explain himself back on Wednesday, even though he's posted 7 times on other places on the site since then.

You could have asked the mod to prod me also... but nah, you prefer to have the town mislynch, right? I'll finish reading this thread and then reply to your "wednesday questions".

One question from me before I go back to that post: You think I'm scummy. Do you think I'm scummy enough to accept a me-for-you trade? I hear that 1-for-1 trades are good for the town, and there doesn't seems to be anyone else (other than kuribo), thinking that I'm scummy right now. So you would be able to rid the town of a scum they hadn't even noticed yet! How about it?

I have a feeling you won't take up this offer, though.

With the deadline coming up, I'm really starting to wonder if he hopes he can just lay low until someone else blows somebody else up.

Well:
1- The deal is that the top vote getters blow themselves up before deadline, right?
2- You are the number 2 vote getters
3- I think you are scum

So I guess that yes, I'm happy with the current state of affairs. I could, of course, be doing more, but meh.

=========

Oh, PEG has striken a light. PEG, would you let me have the honors instead, I'm not really following this game .

STRIKE A LIGHT

I'm willing to blow up the top vote getter 24 hours before the deadline, or to blow up Yos2 if there is no clear majority. I won't blow up anyone else.

If I survive the day somehow I'd still like to line up for enforcer job tomorrow.

Go Town!

[Claus]

Answering Yos2's "Wednesday post" (reads Thu to me, though - whatever)

but I did NOT attack lukers until there'd been pleanty of time to see who the lurkers were.

I disagree with you. I think we couldn't say for sure who the lurkers were by the time you start pressuring them. And for your "is it bad to discuss pro-town strategy in the beginning of the game?" question, I'd say that discussing strategy that has no immediate benefits for town, and can lead to bad policy lynches is not pro-town at all.

Lynch all lurkers is a generally good strategy, but it is not perfect. I think it fails in the context you presented it.

In other words, you need to explain why you're voting for me, because it seems like an incredibly scummy OMGUS vote from where I'm sitting.

Funny that you say I'm incredibly scummy, but you're not voting for me. Here, I see your incredibly scummy, and I raise you a "Striken light". Your move.

I assume that's the comment you're attacking me over, am I correct? What, exactally, was wrong with that comment? And what was wrong with the so-called "timing and manner" of that comment?

I'm attacking you for this comment yes.
I'm also attacking you for your "three scum" slip.
I'm also attacking you because you are constantly accusing me of being scummy, but have not voted me or done anything similar.

I'm also attacking you because I have this gut feeling that you are scum. You are worrying yourself too much about one little vote from one little townie who is not that active in the game, and is not that great in argumentation or logic. You're trying to paint me as scum to invalidate my argument, but you are not willing to actually vote me, or ask other people whether they think I should be lynched or not. Your attack against me does not feel right.

(Yeah, my vote may be a tiny little bit OMGUS )

Anyway, back to your questioning: regarding the comment above, I think that when you made that comment, on page 2, we didn't have enough information to determine who the lurkers were, and still you were already arguing that lurking was a "Strong Scumtell". Why would town do that? I can't see strong reasons. But I can see a better reason for scum to do that - to lead the town in a string of lurker myslinches, with the occasional bussing or two.

You need to do all of this and explain yourself better, becuase I'm just not believing your claimed motives right now.

Well. You say I'm bluffing when I attack you. I have striken a light, and I'm ready to let you explode me (or to explode you). Are you still willing to say that you don't believe my claimed motives?

[Mr Stoofer]

ALIGHT

pickemgenius
Claus

Deadline: 9am BST Thursday 1st May.

[Marmalade]

Of the two that have already striked a light, I would prefer Claus to blow someone up. Yos would be a pretty bad target to be honest, especially since those voting for him are all relatively suspicious.

Not sure exactly who I would want Claus to explode at this point, but I think probably Surye, skitzer and elvis_knits are all okay with me, although I need to re-read to confirm this.

[Claus]

If you want me to explode someone other than Yos2, you'd better get voting. The deadline is Thu, 17pm my time (Thu 8AM GMT, 9AM BST, it seems). I'll probably explode around Thu 12:00 my time (around GMT 0:00 to 3:00).

[Quagmire]

If you want me to explode someone other than Yos2, you'd better get voting. The deadline is Thu, 17pm my time (Thu 8AM GMT, 9AM BST, it seems). I'll probably explode around Thu 12:00 my time (around GMT 0:00 to 3:00).

please do sarcastro; i'm voting sarcastro

i'm p sure he's scum

[elvis_knits]

Of the two that have already striked a light, I would prefer Claus to blow someone up. Yos would be a pretty bad target to be honest, especially since those voting for him are all relatively suspicious.

Not sure exactly who I would want Claus to explode at this point, but I think probably Surye, skitzer and elvis_knits are all okay with me, although I need to re-read to confirm this.

I don't like how this guy pretends to want Surye, skitzer, or me to be blown up, yet does not vote anyone. Not voting lets other people stay at the top of the list. If Marm really doesn't want Yos to die, he needs to vote for someone else.

[NabakovNabakov]

Marmalade has seemed pretty opposed to making any sort of a decision all day. He hasn't had good things to say about Yos' wagon in particular, but also just wagons in general. Could be a confusion tactic to encourage a messy/deadline explosion, and I would like it to be noted for later days.

It seems I'm all alone on the elvis_knits wagon. If nobody else is willing to join me, I'd likely move to Sarc or Yos, but I'd take some time to figure out which.

[Yosarian2]

Interesting.

Oddly enough, even though it might lead to my death, Claus's striking a light is actually the closest thing to a pro-town action I've seen him do all game. Now I guess I just have to try figure out if he's a town trying to get a reaction out of me, or a scum who's trying to bluff his way our of trouble here, so I can decide if I should kill him or not now that I have the option.


So, now to respond to the meat of his posts:

You could have asked the mod to prod me also... but nah, you prefer to have the town mislynch, right? I'll finish reading this thread and then reply to your "wednesday questions".

It never occured to me that you needed a mod prod, seeing as how you just posted on Wednesday; based on the timing of your lurking and the approaching deadline, I had been assuming you were intentioanlly lurking. Why, are you now claiming you forgot about this game or something?

I disagree with you. I think we couldn't say for sure who the lurkers were by the time you start pressuring them.

Again, the first time I tried to start pressuring lurkers, the game had already been going for more then a week. Don't you think that, after a full week of gameplay, in any game, it's a good idea to note who hasn't posted content yet? And my comments about lurkers certanly were helpful in scumhunting, I think, considering the scummy-looking reaction I go from both you and from Skitzer about the scumhunting.

And for your "is it bad to discuss pro-town strategy in the beginning of the game?" question, I'd say that discussing strategy that has no immediate benefits for town, and can lead to bad policy lynches is not pro-town at all.

That's just not true. In a theme game, with different rules and different mechanics, it is ESPECALLY important to discuss pro-town stratagy. Take a look at how bad the pro-town play was before we started discussing the stratagy of when to strike a light, when to blow ourselves up, ect. That has nothing to do with policy lynches; in fact, good theoretical discussion should avoid bad policy lynches. Not that I consider going after lurkers to be a "policy lynch" in a game where lurking is perhaps the best possible theoretical scum stratagy...

I'll be glad to continue to debate how useful discussing stratagy is in theoretical terms, but since we don't have much time to have this conversation here, I'll just say that I always find theoretical discussion of that type very helpful for the town, and challange you to find one single game I have ever played in either theme forum with significantly altered mechanics where I, as a pro-town player, did NOT spend significant amounts of time in the early game discussing stratagy. I highly doubt you'll find one, because I ALWAYS discuss stratagy as a pro-town player in games with altered mechanics, especally early in the game when there's not that much else to talk about.

Lynch all lurkers is a generally good strategy, but it is not perfect. I think it fails in the context you presented it.

I never said lynch all lurkers. I said pressure all lurkers and don't let them get away with lurking, which is a radically different thing. And I think that going after lurkers is ESPECALLY important in this context, for reasons I've explained any number of times.

Funny that you say I'm incredibly scummy, but you're not voting for me.

As I mentioned in a different post, a lot of people look very scummy right now. My main suspects are CES, Elvis, you, and Skitzer, and I also understand the suspcicions on Sarc and Suarve. If I had to make a kill right now, you'd actually only be my third choice, after CES and Elvis.

I assume that's the comment you're attacking me over, am I correct? What, exactally, was wrong with that comment? And what was wrong with the so-called "timing and manner" of that comment?

I'm attacking you for this comment yes.

You realize you didn't answer my question there, right? What exactally was wrong with that comment, what was wrong with the timing of it, and what was wrong with the manner of it?

I'm also attacking you for your "three scum" slip.

We've been over this too many times...

I'm starting to wonder if certain people just keep bringing this up because they know there are actually 4 scum, and they want an excuse to keep saying "3 scum" because they don't want the town to notice that we're very likely in lynch or lose tommorow. Which is not necessarally directed at you, more at CES and Elvis since they've been beating this drum a lot more then you have, but it's making me wonder.

I'm also attacking you because you are constantly accusing me of being scummy, but have not voted me or done anything similar.

Have you noticed how many different people I've been attacking? I find a lot of people scummy, and while I've wanted answeres from you, I wasn't voting for you because you're just not at the top of my list right now. Although that could change, depending on your posts from now until deadline. We'll see.

I'm also attacking you because I have this gut feeling that you are scum. You are worrying yourself too much about one little vote from one little townie who is not that active in the game, and is not that great in argumentation or logic.

Eh? I'm not "worried" about your vote, I'm trying to figure out if you're scum. Also, it's interesting the way you find an excuse to call yourself a townie there...

So, what. Are you accusing me of being overdefensive here or something?

You're trying to paint me as scum to invalidate my argument,

Wrong. I used logic to invalidate your argument a long time ago. I've also been suspicious of you, partly because you've been trying so hard to push such bad logic, and because I just honestly have trouble believing that people still think that "Yos attacking lurkers proves Yos is scum" (I mean, I always do that, it's in my bloody signature, what else do I have to do here?). But my suspicious of you have never been my defense against you. In fact, it seems the other way around, it feels more like you've been ramping up your attack against me in an OMGUS way in order to try to invalidate my arguments against you.

but you are not willing to actually vote me, or ask other people whether they think I should be lynched or not. Your attack against me does not feel right.

Huh? So first you're attacking me because I'm attacking you, and now you're attacking me because I'm not attacking you hard enough? Why, exactally, are you getting so upset about being my #2 or #3 suspect, when no one else is even voting for you?

Anyway, back to your questioning: regarding the comment above, I think that when you made that comment, on page 2, we didn't have enough information to determine who the lurkers were, and still you were already arguing that lurking was a "Strong Scumtell".

Well, sure. Lurking is always a scumtell, and it's an even better scumtell in this type of game. I don't think I ever said it was a "strong" scumtell, I wouldn't go quite that far.

Why would town do that? I can't see strong reasons.

But I can see a better reason for scum to do that - to lead the town in a string of lurker myslinches, with the occasional bussing or two.

Any number of reasons town should do that.

1. Because it's the truth.

2. Because in a game like this, if you've got something important to say, you'd better say it damn fast, since days can end so fast and people can die so quickly. Bad Idea Mafia II, by the time I had a chance to post it was twilight, and then I was nightkilled night 1, so I never really had a chance to say anything game relevent at all.

3. Because by saying that, and making a big deal of it right from the start, I was hoping to DETER people from lurking, to get other people to start thinking about and keeping an eye on lurkers, and just because it seemed like it was going to help the town.

If I was scum trying to get a bunch of bad "policy lynches", I wouldn't have made that post then; I would have waited for someone TO lurk, and THEN tried to lynch them for it. Instead, I was trying, right from the start, to PREVENT people from lurking by making it clear that they wouldn't get away with it, BECAUSE that would help the town.

Are you still not understanding how bad lurking is in this kind of game? Did you ever go back and take a look at MAD mafia like I suggested you do?

Well. You say I'm bluffing when I attack you. I have striken a light, and I'm ready to let you explode me (or to explode you). Are you still willing to say that you don't believe my claimed motives?

(shrug) Well, I still suspect your motives, yeah. I still think there's a reasonable chance that you realized you are in trouble based on my logic and are trying to scare/bully/bluff your way out of it. However, in this situation, like I said, I think you striking a light is actually a somewhat pro-town move, and your offer to kill whoever the town votes for is another one, since either one would be very risky for scum to do. Still, if you don't want me to blow you up before deadline, I would suggest that you try to read what I've said a little more carefully respond to my questions a little better, instead of just constantly attacking me because I'm attacking you.

[kuribo]

It seems I'm all alone on the elvis_knits wagon. If nobody else is willing to join me, I'd likely move to Sarc or Yos, but I'd take some time to figure out which.

I interpret that as "No one is listening to my accusations, but if you guys are willing to kill someone, I'd be perfectly willing to help."

[Yosarian2]

I interpret that as "No one is listening to my accusations, but if you guys are willing to kill someone, I'd be perfectly willing to help."

Isn't that what mafia is all about?

[pickemgenius]

@nabnab- my ideal situation was for elvis to blow up surye or vice versa.

[PokerFace]

I am willing to support either a sarc or surye bombing. Either sounds good to me. Elmo is high on my list too but no one else seems to suspect or vote him yet.

The enforcer being lit should be only a "precautionary" measure. It is much more preferable that BOTH people going off are the two highest vote getters. The town will gain nothing from a no lynch. The town is hurt by a mislynch. Best way I can think of to avoid a mislynch is to have the voting decide those exploding, so people should be voting. And those with the most votes should be pressured to strike lights.

Here is the current vote count.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Current Vote Count of Day 4:

Surye - 4(PEG, Skitzer, Ergo, PokerFace)
Yosarian2 - 3(CEScum, Claus, Elvis)
Cogito Ergo Scum - 1(Yosarian2)
Sarcastro - 1(Quagmire)
Skitzer - 1(Surye)
Elvis - 1(NabNab)
Erg0 - 1(Elmo)

Not Voting - 4(Flameaxe, Kuribo, Marmalade, Sarcastro)

16 people alive so its 9 votes needed
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I fixed one error (Elmo was marked voting for erg0 and voting for no one), but it has really not changed. And some people that have gotten voted are not posting in this game. Things need to change. If necessary I might strike a light too, but really I think Surye should be doing that.

[Claus]

Why, are you now claiming you forgot about this game or something?

Forgot? Not really. Uninspired instead, like I said before. "Meh, I bet these new posts are more of the same, I'll check this game later".

I'll just say that I always find theoretical discussion of that type very helpful for the town,

I guess we have different playstyles, then. I generally find that theoretical discussion is a way for scum to look pro-town while avoiding scum-hunting posts that could link them to their partners.

The obvious exception is very different game mechanics. In this game, we have two lynches per day. I suggested 2 votes, Adel argued 1. We eventually decided on the 1 vote standard. Done. Theoretical discussion past that detracts from scum hunting.

and challange you to find one single game I have ever played

Nah. I'm not a big fan of using meta as proof of anything. If you want to convince me of your motives, do so in this game.

As I mentioned in a different post, a lot of people look very scummy right now. My main suspects are CES, Elvis, you, and Skitzer, and I also understand the suspcicions on Sarc and Suarve. If I had to make a kill right now, you'd actually only be my third choice, after CES and Elvis.

This is the kind of content that I find pro-townish. Not theory discussion. I find that Scum have a hard time pointing fingers around without eventually leaving a trail back to their nest. Keeping this for future reference.

I don't think I ever said it was a "strong" scumtell, I wouldn't go quite that far.

You said lurking was a "specially strong scumtell" - see your own post number 1, last sentence.

(shrug) Well, I still suspect your motives, yeah. (...) Still, if you don't want me to blow you up before deadline,

Why wouldn't I want to? I have striken a light to allow you to attack me. Are you offering yourself a way out now? If your trade is "answer my questions or I will blow you up", I think I'll just shut up and see what you do.

I have put forward the "town vote" because this is mafia: While I'm pretty sure I'm right about you, I know I could just be wrong. I want to see what the rest of the town thinks.

==============

About other players. I want to see Sarc, Marmalade and Kuribo vote. Of these three, I would be happiest with a Sarc explosion.

[Mr Stoofer]

ALIGHT

pickemgenius
Claus

Name in

orange

may make a Dynamite attack.

Deadline: 9am BST Thursday 1st May.

[Yosarian2]

Forgot? Not really. Uninspired instead, like I said before. "Meh, I bet these new posts are more of the same, I'll check this game later".

Ok. Then why should I prod you? Prods are for people who've forgotten about the game, or who don't know the game's started, or whatever. If someone jus dosn't feel like posting or seems to be lurking tactically, you pressure them to make them change their behavior, you don't bring the mod into it.

Theoretical discussion past that detracts from scum hunting.

How does theoretical discussin "Detract" from scum hunting? Anything that you can find to talk about early in the game tends to move the conversation fowards. Anything that deters other people from lurking makes it easier to find scum, and like I said, I think lurking in this game is itself a scumtell.

(shrug) Well, I still suspect your motives, yeah. (...) Still, if you don't want me to blow you up before deadline,

Why wouldn't I want to? I have striken a light to allow you to attack me. Are you offering yourself a way out now? If your trade is "answer my questions or I will blow you up", I think I'll just shut up and see what you do.

No; I'm offering you a way out, because I tend to think that you striking a light in the situation is probably a small pro-town tell, as a scum in your position probably would have not done that, and because you were never on the top of my suspect list anyway.

I am keeping the option of blowing you up open, based on how you continue to respond, but as of right now it dosn't seem like a (Claus+Yos) death today is that likely to help the town. I wish I knew why you did think so, I'm tired of getting lynched as town all the damn time lately.

[elvis_knits]

It seems I'm all alone on the elvis_knits wagon. If nobody else is willing to join me, I'd likely move to Sarc or Yos, but I'd take some time to figure out which.

I interpret that as "No one is listening to my accusations, but if you guys are willing to kill someone, I'd be perfectly willing to help."

Kuribo, I notice you are not voting.

Why?

[PokerFace]

Yes all those not voting definatly should be

Also I got some questions

@Claus:

Can't remember if this was already answered or not. Can't find where or if it was but..

The 3 scum thing Yosarian said. Do you actually think there are 3 scum? If not then why is that still a relevant tell?

@Yosarian2:

Would you be willing to strike a light and blow up Surye? I still ain't sold on you being scum but you two are the ones with the highest number of votes right now.

@Mod-Stoofer: Please Prod Surye and FlameAxe.
(Flameaxe has not posted in week here)

[Surye]

STRIKE A LIGHT

Okay, we're getting really close to the deadline, and i have not had much free time to really address this game like I wanted to, however, I have been following.

If I make it to my 24 hours, I will take out Yos2 or Skitzer. I'd like to hear skitzers current thoughts on the game. I hope no one blows me up before the 24 hours, as a double town death is a really bad idea, and even assuming you think I am scum, letting me blow someone up will have the same effect or better as scum killing. I will try to make my promised analysis after work today.

[pickemgenius]

I call BS on Surye.

[NabakovNabakov]

It seems I'm all alone on the elvis_knits wagon. If nobody else is willing to join me, I'd likely move to Sarc or Yos, but I'd take some time to figure out which.

I interpret that as "No one is listening to my accusations, but if you guys are willing to kill someone, I'd be perfectly willing to help."

If I wanted to kill elvis_knits all by myself I could certainly make a go of it. This setup is unique in that you can still kill somebody even if nobody else is listening to you. I am willing to cede to the town's opinion on this one as an elvis_knits dynamite sails off into the distance.


Maybe I'm WIFOMing, but I don't see why Claus striking a light makes sense from a scum perspective. He was under mild suspicion but could have easily sailed through deadline without anybody noticing. Why put yourself on the line like that? It's bluffing at an empty pot.

I'd rather not lynch Yos. His defense seemed comprehensive, his suspicions believable, and there really isn't anything scummy about pressuring lurkers (at least until you get to the policy-lynch level of zealotry). His long post trump's Claus' long post and anything else is just playing WIFOM with the burden of proficiency.

I don't mind that Surye is dynamiting but I think we could have done better. Quick, everybody wagon Sarc.

Unvote: Vote: Sarcastro

[Surye]

It seems I'm all alone on the elvis_knits wagon. If nobody else is willing to join me, I'd likely move to Sarc or Yos, but I'd take some time to figure out which.

I interpret that as "No one is listening to my accusations, but if you guys are willing to kill someone, I'd be perfectly willing to help."

If I wanted to kill elvis_knits all by myself I could certainly make a go of it. This setup is unique in that you can still kill somebody even if nobody else is listening to you. I am willing to cede to the town's opinion on this one as an elvis_knits dynamite sails off into the distance.


Maybe I'm WIFOMing, but I don't see why Claus striking a light makes sense from a scum perspective. He was under mild suspicion but could have easily sailed through deadline without anybody noticing. Why put yourself on the line like that? It's bluffing at an empty pot.

I'd rather not lynch Yos. His defense seemed comprehensive, his suspicions believable, and there really isn't anything scummy about pressuring lurkers (at least until you get to the policy-lynch level of zealotry). His long post trump's Claus' long post and anything else is just playing WIFOM with the burden of proficiency.

I don't mind that Surye is dynamiting but I think we could have done better. Quick, everybody wagon Sarc.

Unvote: Vote: Sarcastro

I really don't understand the case against Sarcastro... Hell, I don't understand how I have the most votes, based on one sparse comment. But Sarcastro even more so.

[Yosarian2]

I call BS on Surye.

Agreed. I really don't think Surye is going to go through on his threat here, he's probably bluffing.

On the off chance he's telling the truth, I'd be quite happy to Surye blow up any of my other top suspects, either Elvis, Skitzer, CES or perhaps Sarc. Or I'd be happy to see any one of those people blow up Surye, now that he's struck a light and can be killed. If Surye survives the day here, I will be most unhappy.

[elvis_knits]

I am having a big problem with the non voters.

And I have to admit I actually haven't read Yos' long post this page...

I probably should as long as I am still voting him