Cultafia: Game over


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Post Post #550 (ISO) » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:50 am

Post by Skruffs »

The thing is; his whole point, underneath the "your reasoning is not sufficent" is that *I* need to convince *HIM* of a point, and that he feels no impetus as a player to convince anyone else of HIS point.

IF nobody is making ANY points, why would i, as 'potential scum', draw attention to myself by bringing up a dodgy case? IF I say nothing, it is likely that Mnowax or someone else gets lynched.

As it is, you yourself have already started to push the wagon onto me, which is exactly what I predicted - in an absence of anyone else scum hunting, the person who scumhunts at all, weakly, winds up being the main target. I was aware of that before I even voted hjltill.


I understand that you think my vote on Hjaltill makes him not at all more scummy.
However, I do'nt see where you have analyzed Amrlx at all in explaining what his reasoning is. His reasoning was that my post ewas insubstantial: Well, that's great, I'm glad you figured that out, considering that was basically the first line of his post.

Now show me where armlx stands, other than what I have pointed out: That he expects others to provide reasoning for him to follow without providing any of his own.

Has his words and/or actions suggested otherwise?

You are arguing that I have a crap case, that's fine. A crap case can lead to a good case, or a counter case, or something else. Instead of working with the crap case to put pressure or investigation onto Hjaltill, who is in fact no longer inthe game after a single vote against him which was angrily criticized by more players than any other single vote has done in the game so far, or to examine the players that seem to have a vested interest in defending hjaltill, you are working to argue against hte premise that a case is crap, should be stopped, and that the player who posted it is likely scum.

I apparently opened a can of worms: And you have provided to me reasoning as well. IF Hjaltill DOES turn out to be a cult recruiter later in the game, I really hope that the reactions he got from my vote on him leads players to inspect both armlx and yourself. But, at your request, and armlx, I will

Unvote
and look for a 'logical case' that will appease Your Lordships to the point that you wuil not criticize me for ACTUALLY TRYING To find scum.

You guys can just, I dunno, continue to yell at people for not satisfy your demands. HAve fun with that.
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Post Post #551 (ISO) » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:38 pm

Post by the silent speaker »

Skruffs, why is it owed to you to "work with the crap case to put pressure on Hjallti"? Why is he more worthy of being pressured than, say, Occult? Especially since, and here's the point you're missing, from the standpoint of any third party the fact that crap cases are being made against Hjallti in the first place may suggest that scum wants him dead. Now I don't think this is a strong point against in this game -- for one thing, more unrecruitables are scum themselves than town, and there's not that much reason to want people gone for their rasoning at this point in this game if they aren't unrecruitable -- but armlx isn't completely wrong.

My main suspect from yesterday was Occult, and I still think that is a fruitful line, For the other? Idunno. I'll need to separate vikingfan and vollkan in my head to better sort out what each one said yesterday (I'm sure I suspected viking, who is now dead town, but I may have been wary of vollkan out of misattribution). But vollkan is right about the 'conspiracy theory' objection.
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Post Post #552 (ISO) » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:15 am

Post by Norinel »

Prodding NabakovNabakov and mnowax. Replacing stark. Activity Day 2 has been disappointing; I'll put down a retractable deadline soon if it doesn't pick up this week.

Vote Count


Nobody!

Not voting (12): Everybody

7 to lynch
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Post Post #553 (ISO) » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:18 am

Post by Beep! Beep! »

I'll give Norinel something to count:

vote: mnowax
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Post Post #554 (ISO) » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:26 am

Post by Skruffs »

the silent speaker wrote:Skruffs, why is it owed to you to "work with the crap case to put pressure on Hjallti"? Why is he more worthy of being pressured than, say, Occult? Especially since, and here's the point you're missing, from the standpoint of any third party the fact that crap cases are being made against Hjallti in the first place may suggest that scum wants him dead. Now I don't think this is a strong point against in this game -- for one thing, more unrecruitables are scum themselves than town, and there's not that much reason to want people gone for their rasoning at this point in this game if they aren't unrecruitable -- but armlx isn't completely wrong.

My main suspect from yesterday was Occult, and I still think that is a fruitful line, For the other? Idunno. I'll need to separate vikingfan and vollkan in my head to better sort out what each one said yesterday (I'm sure I suspected viking, who is now dead town, but I may have been wary of vollkan out of misattribution). But vollkan is right about the 'conspiracy theory' objection.
Yes, but you forget, armlx only wants cases against players if they are based on finding cult recruiters,a nd no others. He also apparently has no way of discerning wether someone is a cult recruitor or not.


I picked Hjaltill because until I voted him, he hadn't really been part of hte scene. Now I know the players who didn't like the idea of voting him. Like I said, if he turns up as a cult recruiter, this will look badly on the others.

Why was your suspicions on OCcult yesterday? And apparently the opinion you have of him hasn't been editted or revised based on the additional information we have on three(?) other player's roles since you were first suspicion of him, so it must be pretty strong.

I'm not saying you don't have a rason or anything, but I Think if you are going to criticize me for 'having a crap case', and then you just say that occult is suspicious iwth no backup, that's being hypocritical. I'm sure, though, that is not the case... so why not share your suspicions? Update the rest of hte players int he game with why you want to focus on Occult.
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Post Post #555 (ISO) » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:27 am

Post by Skruffs »

mnowax wrote: Note the italicized. He makes sure that he lets us know that both a vig and a SK exists. This is not an open game, were not sure of the existence of the roles. How did he find out this information? No i am not a tracker. No i am not a watcher or alarmist. I am a Vig. I didn't kill last night because i wanted to make sure i had a kill for night one of this game. Therefore, There IS a SK in this game as well as me, and although there will be an attempt to kill me, i will finish off Blaze in the night. If i happen to get recruited, i will spout the name of my leader immediately, So if you don't want me around, you must kill me. I only say this because were getting close to lynch( i believe) and i want all my information out on the table before i die.
Beep! Beep! - do you think mnowax is a cultist, SK, vig, or cult-recruiter?
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Post Post #556 (ISO) » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:33 am

Post by Beep! Beep! »

The main pugilists appear town. Scum tends to disappear.
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Post Post #557 (ISO) » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:44 am

Post by NabakovNabakov »

Sorry guys, limited time for scum + three games with set deadlines + eye-crossing argument = neglect

I still feel Skruffs has been lashing out in the interest of defending his honor (I kinda always get that feeling whenever a player ties off a debacle with "Well, I was just doing that for reactions" (but that's just because I'm not a reaction player)). His case on Hajallti was DOA so he shifted the focus to a theory point that seemed credible, no shame there.

Vollkan seemed to defend armlx far past the point that I would see as conventional. I would have expected him to take at least one step back about halfway down Page 22 and realize that he was defending armlx (and attacking Skruffs) over practically nothing.
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Post Post #558 (ISO) » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:58 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Yeah; of the 3 of them, Volkan's reaction has been the wierdest here, I'd agree with you on that NN.
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Post Post #559 (ISO) » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:22 am

Post by mnowax »

why do you think that i am scum beep?
Sure one more time for fun.
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Post Post #560 (ISO) » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:47 pm

Post by the silent speaker »

Skruffs: it was based on his sudden shift to BlazeRunner after Blaze claimed recruit, which I felt at the tim was done in a paramountly scummy way. (It is somewhat less so now that we know Blaze wasn't Occult's recruit, but still very bad IMO.)
I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons
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Post Post #561 (ISO) » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:54 am

Post by Norinel »

Quinton. replaces stark.
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Post Post #562 (ISO) » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:12 am

Post by Skruffs »

the silent speaker wrote:Skruffs, why is it owed to you to "work with the crap case to put pressure on Hjallti"?
Also, I wanted to turn this around:
Why are you not asking Armlx, "Armlx, why is it owed to you to "have cases made for you"?"
When someone says that other peole have to vye for his vote, he is effectively saying he has no intentions of trying ot help town.


NabNab, thanks for the vouch to my character. While I do feel my honor is slighted I am not actively trying to defend it. I generally put out cases that probably don't hold water - I can at least admit that. But I think it's incredibly scummy for someone to focus on players putting out fake cases, demanding more from them *And not offering cases of their own* - they put themselves in a position of zero risk by trying to get other players to do their dirty work - and taking on the burden of being a target if their dirty work is wrong or accurate - for them. That's a technique I Think a cult -recruitor would want to try, to try and get peoplpe not in his faction arguing against each other while he quietly recruits on the side.

Anyways, I'll try to lay off of that angle but I Think it *is* something that is being ignored/overlooked.
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Post Post #563 (ISO) » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:14 am

Post by Skruffs »

Also:
Remind me if things start to lull again to look at how players reacted to Blaze claiming recruit. Any cult leaders would have thought that Blaze was recruited by the 'other cult' - and if someone soon after introuced the idea of two cults that may be an accidental bread crumb.
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Post Post #564 (ISO) » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:56 am

Post by armlx »

Skruffs wrote:Also:
Remind me if things start to lull again to look at how players reacted to Blaze claiming recruit. Any cult leaders would have thought that Blaze was recruited by the 'other cult' - and if someone soon after introuced the idea of two cults that may be an accidental bread crumb.

Upon review, no one who hadn't already voiced that they had assumed 2 cults did this.
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Post Post #565 (ISO) » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:57 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

getting beat down with end of the month work...hopefully will have time May 1 to post...(sending this to all my games).
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Post Post #566 (ISO) » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:46 am

Post by NabakovNabakov »

Skruffs wrote:Also:
Remind me if things start to lull again to look at how players reacted to Blaze claiming recruit. Any cult leaders would have thought that Blaze was recruited by the 'other cult' - and if someone soon after introuced the idea of two cults that may be an accidental bread crumb.
There was a pretty solid consensus (at least in my mind) on there likely being two cults before Blaze even claimed.

Honor isn't entirely immaterial. A townie who doesn't actively defend his credibility when he can won't have it when it counts.
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Post Post #567 (ISO) » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:18 pm

Post by Quinton. »

Just checking in. Reading some of the thread.

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Post Post #568 (ISO) » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:21 pm

Post by the silent speaker »

But I think it's incredibly scummy for someone to focus on players putting out fake cases, demanding more from them *And not offering cases of their own* - they put themselves in a position of zero risk by trying to get other players to do their dirty work
I don't know that I would say "incredibly scummy," but fair point; it is much easier to destroy than to create. Still, putting out deliberately fake cases seems like it wll only sow the town confusion in the long run.
I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons
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Post Post #569 (ISO) » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:13 am

Post by Skruffs »

Thanks for the check through for me, armlx, nab.

Nab: Was that directed at me? If so, why?

TSS: I disagree. I haven't compared the 'validity' of voting Hjltill for his grammar slip up to other votes people have had today (or day one), but I did notice that the reaction was immediate and kind of unexpected. Wether it was a fake case or not, I think there were reactions that should be noted IF hjtill shows up as scum later on in the game.

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Post Post #570 (ISO) » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:29 am

Post by vollkan »

Skruffs wrote: The thing is; his whole point, underneath the "your reasoning is not sufficent" is that *I* need to convince *HIM* of a point, and that he feels no impetus as a player to convince anyone else of HIS point.
Define "HIS point" more clearly for me.

But, I shall address each of the two very different ideas of what you might mean:
a) HIS point in the debate against you; or
--I think he made his position in the debate as clearly as he possibly could, to be honest. You made a single point against Hjallti, and he rejected it.
b) HIS suspicions
--Well, look, I sympathise with you here because everybody should pull their weight. Maybe this is just me, but one reason I post suspicions and detailed cases is because I like argument. I don't care if people don't match my contribution (within reason, of course), so long as there is a reasoned debate about the issue.
Skruffs wrote: IF nobody is making ANY points, why would i, as 'potential scum', draw attention to myself by bringing up a dodgy case? IF I say nothing, it is likely that Mnowax or someone else gets lynched.
WIFOM argument. Beyond that, I've seen scum make stupid mistakes (I know I've had more than my fair share in past games :?). You making 'an' argument is pretty much a nulltell. It's content which is meaningful.
Skruffs wrote: As it is, you yourself have already started to push the wagon onto me, which is exactly what I predicted - in an absence of anyone else scum hunting, the person who scumhunts at all, weakly, winds up being the main target. I was aware of that before I even voted hjltill.
I'm not pushing a wagon against you. We are having dialogue. Would you prefer that the dialogue end?
Skruffs wrote: I understand that you think my vote on Hjaltill makes him not at all more scummy.
However, I do'nt see where you have analyzed Amrlx at all in explaining what his reasoning is. His reasoning was that my post ewas insubstantial: Well, that's great, I'm glad you figured that out, considering that was basically the first line of his post.

Now show me where armlx stands, other than what I have pointed out: That he expects others to provide reasoning for him to follow without providing any of his own.

Has his words and/or actions suggested otherwise?
I'll reread armlx in my next post and come to a conclusion on this point.

Besides that, I reiterate that I don't like the undercurrent to what you are saying which, unless I am radically misinterpreting you, is basically saying "Nobody can criticise me unless they do as much individual case-forming of their own."
NN wrote: Vollkan seemed to defend armlx far past the point that I would see as conventional. I would have expected him to take at least one step back about halfway down Page 22 and realize that he was defending armlx (and attacking Skruffs) over practically nothing.
I didn't really see it as defense of armlx, so much as criticising the position that skruffs was putting forward. Obviously, the armlx thing was part and parcel of that, and became a major issue.
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Post Post #571 (ISO) » Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:24 am

Post by Skruffs »

My point is that someone who is criticizing another for 'not pulling their own weight', and is at the same time is relying on other people to form cases FOR THEM to review, is in fact criticizing OTHER players for not pulling THEIR OWN weight.

Town should never depend on other players to make cases FOR Them. Scum do that. Town doesn't have the luxury of knowing who to trust.
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Post Post #572 (ISO) » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:45 am

Post by NabakovNabakov »

@Skruffs: I was just feeling zen. Take it as you will.
V wrote: I didn't really see it as defense of armlx, so much as criticising the position that skruffs was putting forward. Obviously, the armlx thing was part and parcel of that, and became a major issue.
You put entire paragraphs in armlx's mouth at times when he was fairly active. It's almost as if he intentionally withdrew and submitted to being your puppet. Why did you assume you had handle enough on armlx's posts that they could (or should) be used to refute Skruffs? Why did you never ask for his input?

@armlx: You made a few posts during the storm, but they were fairly insubstantial, why? They were your words on the line, why didn't
you
justify them (or at least note how much speaking vollkan was doing for you)?
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Post Post #573 (ISO) » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:07 am

Post by armlx »

I made my posts fairly insubstantial as I felt, well, there wasn't much susbstantial to argue over. I made the points I felt needed to be made, and nothing more.

As for vollkan, I figured letting him do whatever he was doing was best, given how he completely shredded me in House Mafia doing basically what he was doing here to Skruffs.
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Post Post #574 (ISO) » Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:30 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Volkan: I can appriciate a good debate as well as anyone, trust me; but, um, any thoughts on who might be scum?
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie

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