Mini 578 - Mistery at Montescuro - Game Over!

[Guardian]

ABWOP: Guardian, you still haven't answered my question further up this page:

What was Joudas doing that caused you to not have a read on him, Guardian? My read was very strongly pro-town, so the result makes sense, but he really didn't seem hard to read to me.

There isn't a positive justification needed for this; I re-read and saw nothing that swayed me one way or the other strongly, and I noticed Coron was calling for Joudas's blood.

[Guardian]

I'm tempted to just leave DBE and Guardian alone entirely and lynch mbf today

FOS: mbf

Mass claim = bad?

[Joudas]

Well, that is cretainly interesting. I like the cop for scum. unvote, Assuming you are correct, for now. If I were the cop, I would have investigated DBE, because I thought there was a lot of investigative roles. I don't know about mass claim. Maybe we could have DBE and guardian target the same person tonight. They would either be lying scum, or we could confirm guardian, assuming DBE is a watcher.

FOS: PyroDwarf

This makes essentially no sense from a pro-town standpoint.

If they target the same person, they'd have to announce who they're targeting in advance. This would mean they'd have to not target either of them (unless you're suggesting Guardian wastes his investigation targeting himself or DBE wastes hers targeting herself), and that the scum would know exactly who to kill to avoid detection. It essentially opens up the killing field for the scum.

Also, scum will most likely (assuming no doc) kill one of them or the other. So this wouldn't even work - one would die, and we'd still only have 1 result which we'd have to assume correct (or incorrect, but we'd have no more to base this on then we do now). Also, if one is lying about their claim, the other will be targeted for the NK and the scum-claimant will remain alive with no chance of detection. This is bad.

We definitely do not want them to announce in advance who they're targeting, as far as I can see it. Can you please explain why this would be a good idea?

[mikeburnfire]

With one dead tracker a claimed cop and watcher, there shouldn't be any more investigative roles. So why are you trying to out the protective roles, Guardian?

MBF, lynch macvenger. What do you think?

What is the case against mac? I must have missed it...

It bothers me that you apparently never even considered the possibily he might have been telling the truth.

I did consider it, but I didn't consider it seriously, as I didn't expect an experienced player to do such a strange and incautious play.

You really would rather no-lynch on day 1, rather then either lynch a claimed vanillia or rather then at least try to lynch someone else? Why do you think that's a pro-town stratagy?

Because the graveyards are full of indispensable townies.

In fact, why vote Coron if you wanted a no lynch? Was the purpose to get a no lynch without looking like you supported it?

Mike, other players are asking good questions, why place a vote on anyone if you wanted a no lynch?

I was expressing my distrust of Coron and letting everybody know that I would have gone after him intently the next day.

--------------------------

I've been indecisive about Guardian and DBE's claims. On one hand, watcher and tracker go together in most games. Add to that fact that Guardian has been out-there most of the game. If he's scum, he's got guts by sticking his neck out for the Tracker lynch and now attempting to push a Watcher lynch. His claim of cop could be a well-improvised way to excuse himself for suspecting Coron and a good reason to suspect DBE.

On the other hand, as soon as Guardian claimed, DBE believed it, saying that his .01% doubt is correct, and suggesting to be investigated. Her watcher claim could be something that her and her scummates decided would be best. Either get a solid claim, or out the real watcher.

But back to the other hand, Guardian has been discrediting DBE's claim while at the same time believing it. Even now he's voting her, but telling her to investigate him.

So, I don't trust either of them. Instead, I'm going to vote Yosarian, who is the person I suspect the most who has not claimed an investigative role.

vote:Yosarian

[Yosarian2]

It bothers me that you apparently never even considered the possibily he might have been telling the truth.

I did consider it, but I didn't consider it seriously, as I didn't expect an experienced player to do such a strange and incautious play.

But it's an even more strange and incautious play for him to do as scum, MBF. You keep saying "he's an experenced player", and he is, but dosn't that show he wouldn't so something as stupid as claim tracker as scum for no good reason on day 1?

Also, you keep ignoring relevent questions here. You claim that you thought that he was just claiming tracker to try to draw doc protection. Have you ever seen a scum do that? Do you understand how hard it would be for a scum to claim tracker results every single day for the rest of the game without knowing who the pro-town power roles are? Remember no one had yet claimed when Coron did. And draw doc protection away from who, exactally?

You really would rather no-lynch on day 1, rather then either lynch a claimed vanillia or rather then at least try to lynch someone else? Why do you think that's a pro-town stratagy?

Because the graveyards are full of indispensable townies.

Worst answer ever.

A no lynch on day 1 is one of the worst things that can happen to the town. It's not as bad as lynching a power role on day 1, but it's worse then pretty much any other outcome. And I'm SURE you know this; to use your own argument, I can't imagine an experenced player like you making such a bad play as pro-town as to delibratly and stealtily try to cause a no-lynch on day 1.

I mean, if you think player x is scummy looking, then wouldn't you rather speedlynch player x instead of no-lynch? That's just common sense, right?

I was expressing my distrust of Coron and letting everybody know that I would have gone after him intently the next day.

Uh, you could have done that the next day, and used your vote right before the deadline to actually, you know, help the town.

So, I don't trust either of them. Instead, I'm going to vote Yosarian, who is the person I suspect the most who has not claimed an investigative role.

You've certanly given no actual reasons to suspect me...you pretty much ignored me day 1, and day 2 you've done nothing in relation to me but try to defend yourself from my attacks against you.

[Yosarian2]

I'm tempted to just leave DBE and Guardian alone entirely and lynch mbf today

FOS: mbf

Mass claim = bad?

Eh....mass claim is probably irrelevent at this point. If no power roles claim, that dosn't tell us anything. If one other power role claims, that might (or might not) tell us one of you and DBE is lying, but we still wouldn't know which one, and in the process it would out the other power role, which dosn't seem worth it to me. Either way, I don't really see how it helps us. Not that it hurts us much either.

[mikeburnfire]

You keep saying "he's an experenced player", and he is, but dosn't that show he wouldn't so something as stupid as claim tracker as scum for no good reason on day 1?

As scum, he would have had reasons. Town or not, his actions have led to other claimed investigative roles.

A no lynch on day 1 is one of the worst things that can happen to the town. It's not as bad as lynching a power role on day 1, but it's worse then pretty much any other outcome. And I'm SURE you know this;

If you're trying to make the case that it's better to lynch a townie Day 1 than to not lynch at all, I disagree.

I can't imagine an experenced player like you making such a bad play as pro-town as to delibratly and stealtily try to cause a no-lynch on day 1.

I think I was pretty transparent in my actions, as I admitted my vote was useless when I made it.

You've certainly given no actual reasons to suspect me.

.. said the person who suspects me for not believing a fishy claim and wanting to avoid a townie lynch Day 1.

[Guardian]

unvote vote: mbf

[mikeburnfire]

So I take it that you are just gonna lash out?

Interesting.

[Guardian]

yup.

[mikeburnfire]

ok.

[Yosarian2]

As scum, he would have had reasons. Town or not, his actions have led to other claimed investigative roles.

Uh, no. It really didn't. DBE semi-half-claimed yesterday because she was being bandwagoned, but that didn't really have anything to do with Coron's claim. There's no logical reason a scum claiming tracker would cause a pro-town person to claim, unless it was a pro-town tracker. "Hey, you're a tracker? Well, I'm the doc, nice to meet you!" That dosn't make any sense, mike.

I think I was pretty transparent in my actions, as I admitted my vote was useless when I made it.

Uh...you never said, yesterday, that you were voting Coron because you wanted to cause a no-lynch. So if that was really your hope, like you're now claiming, then you were not at all transparent.

You've certainly given no actual reasons to suspect me.

.. said the person who suspects me for not believing a fishy claim and wanting to avoid a townie lynch Day 1.

THERE WAS NOTHING FISHY ABOUT HIS CLAIM.

YOU PUSHED TO LYNCH A PRO-TOWN PLAYER, A PLAYER WHO HAD BEEN PRETTY HELPFUL AND PRETTY PRO-TOWN LOOKING ALL GAME, *BECAUSE* HE CLAIMED A PRO-POWER ROLE IN A SITUATION WHERE THERE IS NO REASON A SCUM WOULD WANT TO LIE.

You basically did more to help the scum by your actions yesterday then you could have by doing anything else you possibly could have done, and you did it in a situation where I can't imagine any pro-town person actually thinking that what you were doing was the right thing to do. You keep trying to explain your actions in different ways, and your explinaitons keep making less and less sense, and seem to have less and less to do with how you actually acted yesterday.

Now, are you going to explain why you're voting me, or should we just assume you're a scum trying a desperate OMGUS attack-defense because you know you can't actually defend your actions?

[mikeburnfire]

There's no logical reason a scum claiming tracker would cause a pro-town person to claim, unless it was a pro-town tracker.

Don't be so narrow minded, my dear Yosarian. Yes, scum can use a tracker claim to out a real tracker, but they can also use it to find a cop or force a doc's hand. If a player suddenly starts to suspect somebody who claimed tracker, then they could easily determine that that person is a cop. We can already see something similar happening here with Guardian and DBE.

Uh...you never said, yesterday, that you were voting Coron because you wanted to cause a no-lynch.

Well, I didn't think a no-lynch was going to happen, but it is what I wanted.

THERE WAS NOTHING FISHY ABOUT HIS CLAIM.

I disagree, as did Guardian, Mac, and DBE.

Now, are you going to explain why you're voting me

because I think you are scum, possibly with one of the claimed investigators (DBE).

[Claus]

Vote Count!

MBF 2 - Yos2, Guardian
Macavenger 1 - Near
Yosarian2 1 - MBF

Not voting:

Joudas, Macavenger, Dasquian, Singing Librarian, Pyrodwarf, DBE

With 10 players alive, it is 6 to lynch!

[Yosarian2]

Don't be so narrow minded, my dear Yosarian. Yes, scum can use a tracker claim to out a real tracker, but they can also use it to find a cop or force a doc's hand. If a player suddenly starts to suspect somebody who claimed tracker, then they could easily determine that that person is a cop. We can already see something similar happening here with Guardian and DBE.

Why would a cop react like that? There's no reason a tracker and a cop can't be in the same game. And there's certanly no reason for a doc to react to a info role claim.

There are a lot of ways to fish for a cop. I can't see claiming tracker as being one of them.

And I notice that AGAIN your claimed reason for why you suspected Coron yesterday changes...

Well, I didn't think a no-lynch was going to happen, but it is what I wanted.

Why? Why would you rather lynch no one instead of lynching, say, DBE, who you now think is scum? Or, you know, lynching someone else? Anyone else?

You do agree that day 1 no lynches are bad for the town, right?

THERE WAS NOTHING FISHY ABOUT HIS CLAIM.

I disagree, as did Guardian, Mac, and DBE.

The reasons you GAVE for calling Coron scum ware pure and completly crap logic. Which is part of the reason that, well, everyone is suspicious of you.

because I think you are scum, possibly with one of the claimed investigators (DBE).

Uh, DBE, you mean the person I was trying to lynch yesterday while you were lynching the tracker?

And "because I think you are scum" isn't any kind of reason, especally when it seems clear that you're only attacking me in respose to my attack on you.

[Guardian]

DBE should almost unquestionably target me tonight, so she can say who killed me if I die, imho.

then why don't you investigate me tonight and see if I am telling the truth.

How about I not waste an investigation?

Yeah except that DBE wouldn't be wasting an investigation.

Either I would not die, or DBE would find out who my killer was.

If I target DBE, and say so in advance, she very well could be killed, and I waste an investigation.

I like how mbf tried to quote stuff as an argument, and instead it was revealed that he hadn't thought it through at all.

respondse?

[mikeburnfire]

Guardian, it seemed to me that you were mad that DBE was leading you, but then you turned around and started leading her.

Why would a cop react like that? There's no reason a tracker and a cop can't be in the same game.

I present this line to you from Guardian:

Tracker + Cop to me didn't make a whole lot of sense, and Coron's bullshit play made me decide to try and get him lynched.

And there's certanly no reason for a doc to react to a info role claim.

Uh, yeah. There is. He would use his protection ability on him.

Why? Why would you rather lynch no one instead of lynching, say, DBE, who you now think is scum? Or, you know, lynching someone else? Anyone else?

Near and DBE were the people on the block. At the time I didn't think Near was scum and DBE claimed to be an investigative role. I didn't want to lynch either of them. But it was too close in the deadline to try to speedlynch somebody else.

And I'm going to preemptively answer the question that you will undoubtedly ask: "Why didn't you suspect DBE's ambiguous claim as much as Coron's clear one?". It was not Coron's claim I was suspicious of, but the way he made it. DBE made her claim to prevent herself from being lynched at deadline. Coron allegedly made his to get two people to stop suspecting him even though he was in no danger of being lynched.

You do agree that day 1 no lynches are bad for the town, right?

I will agree to this point if YOU agree that I shouldn't lynch somebody that I think is town.

The reasons you GAVE for calling Coron scum ware pure and completly crap logic.

You are ignoring the fact that enough people believed this logic to lynch Coron, crap or not.

Which is part of the reason that, well, everyone is suspicious of you.

A little suspicion is healthy. The only people voting me are you and Guardian, and Guardian not only agree with my reasons, but played a big hand in speedlynching Coron.

Uh, DBE, you mean the person I was trying to lynch yesterday while you were lynching the tracker?

Yep. Either him or Guardian. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the two was lying scum and you were connected to 'em.

[Yosarian2]

b]I present this line to you from Guardian: [/b]

Tracker + Cop to me didn't make a whole lot of sense, and Coron's bullshit play made me decide to try and get him lynched.

(shrug) He didn't do anything yesterday to tip his hand though. There's no reason any power role would, or should.

Uh, yeah. There is. He would use his protection ability on him.

Well, yeah, but that dosn't give him away during the day.

Near and DBE were the people on the block. At the time I didn't think Near was scum and DBE claimed to be an investigative role. I didn't want to lynch either of them. But it was too close in the deadline to try to speedlynch somebody else.

False. DBE had not yet claimed an investigative role, she just vaugly hinted that she had some kind of power role.

And it was clearly not too close to the deadline to try to speedlynch someone else.

And I'm going to preemptively answer the question that you will undoubtedly ask: "Why didn't you suspect DBE's ambiguous claim as much as Coron's clear one?". It was not Coron's claim I was suspicious of, but the way he made it. DBE made her claim to prevent herself from being lynched at deadline. Coron allegedly made his to get two people to stop suspecting him even though he was in no danger of being lynched.

So, you'd rather lynch someone who look suspicious and then sort-of claims, rather then someone who dosn't look suspicious and then claims? That dosn't make sense

You do agree that day 1 no lynches are bad for the town, right?

I will agree to this point if YOU agree that I shouldn't lynch somebody that I think is town.[/quote]

I think that lynching a claimed townie is better then a no lynch, unless you have really strong proof that the claimed townie is pro-town. At the time of your vote, we did not, although we kind of do now based on how near reacted to the coron speedwagon.

You are ignoring the fact that enough people believed this logic to lynch Coron, crap or not.

So? Sometimes crap logic tricks the town into mislynching. That's why it's a useful scum tactic. Dosn't make it any less scummy.

Uh, DBE, you mean the person I was trying to lynch yesterday while you were lynching the tracker?

Yep. Either him or Guardian. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the two was lying scum and you were connected to 'em.

...and I note you're still refusing to give any actual reasons to either suspect me of anything or link me to anyone.

[mikeburnfire]

Okay, now you're just ignoring facts. Guardian just said that Coron's claim and play made him try to get him lynched. It's all there in black and white. What do you mean he "didn't do anything to tip his hand"? HE PUSHED THE SPEEDLYNCH.

Well, yeah, but that dosn't give him away during the day.

But is still advantageous to the mafia.

False. DBE had not yet claimed an investigative role, she just vaugly hinted that she had some kind of power role.

Acknowledged.

And it was clearly not too close to the deadline to try to speedlynch someone else.

Yeah, and we see where it got us.

So, you'd rather lynch someone who look suspicious and then sort-of claims, rather then someone who dosn't look suspicious and then claims? That dosn't make sense

That's a broad generalization, but in this specific scenario, Yes.

I think that lynching a claimed townie is better then a no lynch,

That was NOT what I asked. Should I, or should I not, lynch somebody that I think is town?

So? Sometimes crap logic tricks the town into mislynching.

And sometimes somebody protown is the one who spins that logic.

...and I note you're still refusing to give any actual reasons to either suspect me of anything or link me to anyone.

I think that, given the last two pages, my actions have

become

justified.

[mikeburnfire]

So, you'd rather lynch someone who look suspicious and then sort-of claims, rather then someone who dosn't look suspicious and then claims? That dosn't make sense.

I'm assuming this sentence was meant to be the other way around, yes?

[DarlaBlueEyes]

wow lotsa activity here.

Must say being inexperienced I am pretty unsure of anything right now. I still find guardian very fishy, but I don't want to risk lynching our cop, esp since we already lost our tracker.

I think both Yos and MBF present good arguments and from what I see its pretty WIFOM.

It could be either, It could be both, it could be neither....I just don't know.

I am not ready to vote because I honestly just cant say one person is scum over another or one person is town over the other....

so confused D:

[Macavenger]

MBF, can you explain your case on Yosarian again? Right now I'm not really seeing much aside from OMGUS.

[Singing Librarian]

Mass claim = bad?

Absolutely, yes. Any further power roles in the town simply become more targets for the scum, who already have too much confirmation of the town's roles for my liking.

[Yosarian2]

wow lotsa activity here.

Must say being inexperienced I am pretty unsure of anything right now. I still find guardian very fishy, but I don't want to risk lynching our cop, esp since we already lost our tracker.

I think both Yos and MBF present good arguments and from what I see its pretty WIFOM.

It could be either, It could be both, it could be neither....I just don't know.

I am not ready to vote because I honestly just cant say one person is scum over another or one person is town over the other....

so confused D:

Uh...MBF hasn't made any arguments against me at all, DBE. It's pretty clear that he's just attacking me becase I attacked him. So how have we both presented good arguments? What arguement has he made that actually makes sense as an attack against me?

[Yosarian2]

So, you'd rather lynch someone who look suspicious and then sort-of claims, rather then someone who dosn't look suspicious and then claims? That dosn't make sense.

I'm assuming this sentence was meant to be the other way around, yes?

No, that's what I meant to say. DBE looked suspicious, and then sort of half-claimed in self defense. Coron didn't look suspicious at all, in my opinion at least, and then he claimed. You're claiming that he's MORE scummy BECAUSE people weren't voting for him, which seems silly.