Mini 578 - Mistery at Montescuro - Game Over!

[Guardian]

You're claiming that he's MORE scummy BECAUSE people weren't voting for him, which seems silly.

Why? That's dumb. Power roles shouldn't claim unless they have results, mass claim, they legitimately fear NK, or they are about to be lynched.

Coron was 0 for 4.

[Dasquian]

Yeah, but the point Yos2 is trying to make (and is apparently falling on death ears) is that

scum fake-claiming power roles

shouldn't claim when Coron did either. Fact is that whichever way you look at it, it just wasn't very good play... which doesn't imply it was scummy play.

And in fact spending some time thinking about it, it makes more sense as a townie who thinks he's helping (somehow!) than as a scum who has an agenda. In retrospect of course we know the former was the case, but we can still ask: how could doing what Coron did be beneficial to scum?

[Guardian]

draw doc protection, cause other town power roles to react oddly...

[PyroDwarf]

I don't like this post. What does "I like the cop for scum" mean? Why should he have investigated DBE?

I like the cop for scum means that I've thought that guardian was scum since mid-day one. I obviously need to get my scumdar calibrated or something. I suggested the he should have investigated DBE because he was so suspicious of all the investigative roles. If I was cop and thought "Wow, theres a lot of investigative roles, thats suspicious". I would have investigated DBE to verify her claim.
@joudas: I see what you mean. I didn't think this plan thru, obv. I just wanted a way to verify that guardian is indeed the cop before he goes and leads the town right down the drain. My reasoning with that plan was If guardian is lying, he wouldnt target playerX and dbe would, she would say "hey guardian never showed up." more in a min

[Guardian]

DBE should almost unquestionably target me tonight, so she can say who killed me if I die, imho.

I would have investigated DBE, because I thought there was a lot of investigative roles.

Can you expand upon this further? You think I should have investigated DBE last night?

?

[PyroDwarf]

did you read waht i just posted?

I suggested the he should have investigated DBE because he was so suspicious of all the investigative roles. If I was cop and thought "Wow, theres a lot of investigative roles, thats suspicious". I would have investigated DBE to verify her claim

while at the time she had only psuedo-claimed, guardian could have made sure she was townie, at least.

[Guardian]

no i didnt

[Joudas]

My reasoning with that plan was If guardian is lying, he wouldnt target playerX and dbe would, she would say "hey guardian never showed up." more in a min

If guardian is lying, all he has to do to get out of his pickle is to NK DBE night 2. Then she's not around to give her results. I find it extremely unlikely that we have 3 investigative roles *and* a doc, unless scum is magnificently overpowered too and we're looking at, say, 6 power roles in a 12 person game, which is somewhat unheard of.

[mikeburnfire]

I haven't made a case for lynching Yos yet, I've been busy defending myself from his flawed arguments. I'll probably get around to rereading and pulling things I found suspicious later.

[Yosarian2]

I haven't made a case for lynching Yos yet, I've been busy defending myself from his flawed arguments. I'll probably get around to rereading and pulling things I found suspicious later.

There's nothing flawed about my arguments. Here, let me lay them out again:

1. You acted in a way that hurt the town and helped the scum.

2. You started a wagon on a pro-town power role only AFTER he claimed to be a pro-town power role, which makes me think there's a good chance that you attacked him because you wanted a pro-town power rle dead.

3. You consistantly gave craplogic reasons for doing so; you're changing your reasons now, but the only real reason you gave yesterday was the odd theory that Coron claimed tracker "in order to protect Near", which is one of the most illogical theories I've ever heard

4. You have admitted to trying to cause a no-lynch on day 1, which is an anti-town move in and of itself. And there's really no way I can see your vote on Coron at the end of the day yesterday as really having pro-town motives; like I said, my guess is that after you pushed the Near wagon for so long yesterday, you wanted to back off of it and let it cruise on to a lynch while you weren't on it so you would look better the next day, which is another common scum tactic.

5. After the bandwagon you started led to a lynch of the tracker, you instantly tried to shift the blame for the wagon to Guardian; another common scumtell.

6. OMGUS attack against me, which appears linked to your inability to actually defend yourself against the points I made.

7. Scummy defense in general today; you keep shifting your justifaction about why you did what you did, and none of the reasons you give really make sense.

8. You keep making other scummy random comments, like randomally accusing me and DGE of being scum toghether; when, in fact, you are the one who's much more linked to her, since you're the one who could have pushed a wagon on her over the edge yesterday but voted for Coron instead, even though you now claim that you didn't expect that vote to go anywhere.

I could go on, but that's the main thrust of it. None of those arguments are "flawed".

[DarlaBlueEyes]

The fact alone that yos was pushing for a lynch on me yesterday should be proof enough we are not aligned.
Reading this argument between the two I tend to lean toward the side of Yos, mainly because of MBF's claim that his vote on Coron was useless, when with out it we probably wouldn't have had a lynch.

[mikeburnfire]

I've already refuted/explained away most of these arguments, but let's do it again.

1. Are referring to refusal to lynch the two candidates I didn't feel were scummy?
2. I didn't buy his bullshit claim.
3. What reasons have I "changed"? The theory you mention was only one of the possibilities I considered.
4. This is the second time you've ignored my question.

Should I, or should I not, lynch somebody that I think is town if the only alternative is no lynch?

5. No, YOU instantly blamed me and Guardian for Coron's death, and I defended myself.
6. Your arguments are shit and are reason enough for me to leave my vote on you.
7. Explain.
8. I'm expressing my suspicions as I have them.

The fact alone that yos was pushing for a lynch on me yesterday should be proof enough we are not aligned.

Because Yos would never be the kind of person to distance, right?

[Macavenger]

Vote: MBF

Yos is making way more sense. Unless Mike can come up with an actual case for Yos being suspicious, I don't see me changing that vote anytime soon.

[Macavenger]

ABWOP: Forgot to mention, Darla, your thought about you and Yos not being scum together just because of him pushing you is totally baseless. I'm actually seeing more of a connection there because you brought the idea up, although it'll stay firmly on the back burner unless and until Yos starts doing anything lynch worthy.

[Yosarian2]

1. Are referring to refusal to lynch the two candidates I didn't feel were scummy?

I'm referring to the fact that your actions led directly to the death of a tracker

2. I didn't buy his bullshit claim.

Uh...his claim obveously wasn't "bullshit", and there was no good reason for you to think it was "bullshit" at the time.

3. What reasons have I "changed"? The theory you mention was only one of the possibilities I considered.

Every time I show that your reasons are crap, you invent another excuse for your vote, generally one that you never mentioned yesterday.

4. This is the second time you've ignored my question.

Should I, or should I not, lynch somebody that I think is town if the only alternative is no lynch?

Uh, I did answer that question, twice. If someone claims vanillia townie, on day 1, and you don't have solid proof that they're town, then yes, lynching them is much better then a no lynch. Even better would be lynching someone else, even if it's a "speed lynch". I mean, if a deadline is coming up, then the town should try to put together a wagon quickly, that's just good pro-town play; especally since Coron had already claimed, I don't see what you're trying to get at here, or why you say you would have rather no-lynched day 1 and then attacked Coron day 2 instead of lynching Coron day 1. Don't you understand that no-lynching day 1 and then lynching person X day 2 is just worse for the town then lynching person X day 1?

5. No, YOU instantly blamed me and Guardian for Coron's death, and I defended myself.

Uh, well, yeah, Coron's death was largly the fault of you and guardian, so yeah, I blamed the two of you. But that's not the issue here. The issue here was that the way you turned on Guardian, instantly, makes me feel like you were trying to shift blame away from yourself.

6. Your arguments are shit and are reason enough for me to leave my vote on you.

Um, you just saying that dosn't make it true, you know.

YOU HURT THE TOWN.

YOU HELPED THE SCUM.

THEREFORE, YOU ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE SCUM THEN TOWN.

That's really what nearly every single single good argument in mafia boils down to, and in this case it's 100% true.

8. I'm expressing my suspicions as I have them.

Um, try again. Because from the point of view of everyone else, it looks like you're attacking me because I'm attacking you, and that you're unable to explain why.

The fact alone that yos was pushing for a lynch on me yesterday should be proof enough we are not aligned.

Because Yos would never be the kind of person to distance, right?

[/quote]

That piece of crap logic, right there, is more then enough.

confirm vote:mikeburnfire

Let's lynch him and move on.

[Claus]

Vote Count!

MBF 3 - Yos2, Guardian, Macavenger
Macavenger 1 - Near
Yosarian2 1 - MBF

Not voting:

Joudas, Dasquian, Singing Librarian, Pyrodwarf, DBE

With 10 players alive, it is 6 to lynch!

[DarlaBlueEyes]

I am semi-tempted to jump on the bandwagon, but I'll let Mike make a post or two in defense before.

[Dasquian]

Vote: mikeburnfire

Yos' arguments are good. mbf's aren't. In particular, the dropped vote on Coron which was supposed to cause a no lynch seems particularly badly justified, with no pro-town redeeming features.

[mikeburnfire]

1. My actions did contribute to the death of the tracker. So? Just because I'm wrong about somebody doesn't make me scum.

2. Yes, there was reason for me to believe the claim was bullshit. An investigative role outting himself day 1 so close to the deadline with no real justification is suspicious.

3. Explain

4. I disagree. You're arguing that I should have lynched Near because it was better than no lynch, but you have given me no reason why she is scum. Also,

Don't you understand that no-lynching day 1 and then lynching person X day 2 is just worse for the town then lynching person X day 1?

I was trying to lynch Coron on Day 1 but nobody would join me. I was TRYING to get X lynched Day 1. What I did not want was a speedlynch on X. There is a difference.

5. If you're talking about my immediate vote today, I've already explained that I misunderstood what Guardian asked of DBE.

6. But they are shit, as I have been able to respond to each of your points, and the only thing you can do is repeat the same points again anyway.

7. I would like you to explain your previous statement "you keep shifting your justifaction about why you did what you did, and none of the reasons you give really make sense". I would like to know what you are referring to in this instance. If you cannot give me examples, then I would like you to stop accusing me of this.

8. Okay, I'll give a reason. I think you're attacking me unjustly. Yes, I heard Coron's claim of Tracker and thought it didn't make sense. I didn't know what his intentions could have been as scum, but his reasons he gave for doing it as town didn't make any sense. So I voted him. I voted him and VEHEMENTLY pushed for his lynch. But it didn't take.

Then deadline came. I could have voted for Near or DBE, who were close to lynch. But I got really good vibes from Near, and I wanted to give DBE some room after her claim. I put my vote on Coron, as I intended to keep pushing his lynch the next day. I did not intend to have him speedlynched. Now you are framing this as if it was all my fault and that it is 100% proof that I am scum.

Now, I want an answer to this:

That piece of crap logic, right there, is more then enough.

DBE said that you two could not be aligned because you pushed for her lynch. I explained that this is not any proof because mafia partners can distance themselves. You call craplogic. What about this is craplogic? Are you saying that you are incapable of distancing yourself?

Are you guys serious in believing all this from Yosarian? Which argument/s of his do you agree with, Mac and DBE? You can't just say

and vote me. I want to know why.

Dasquian, I admit that I didn't want to lynch somebody I thought was town and that I would have preferred to no lynch. Yosarian keeps arguing that it's okay to lynch somebody if you cannot confirm that they are a townie, just as long as

somebody

gets lynched. I disagree. If you still want to vote me for this reason, then so be it. If Near turns out to be town in endgame, I expect an apology from both of you.

[Dasquian]

You won't be getting it; if Near turns out to be townie, then

even in retrospect

it would've been better if he'd gotten lynched. Because...

- Plain townie is more dispensable than a tracker.
- More people had reacted to his bandwagon and thus the lynch would've been more useful.

You played your part in lynching a more useful town role, did so to further another anti-town play (no lynch), and did so in an oblique manner (you could

always

have just voted no lynch). In addition, you're sending mixed messages about how you actually

did

want to lynch Coron too.

Finally, you (along with Near, Mac, DBE and Guardian) gave us a much less useful deadline lynch because it reflects only on you lot, whereas the L-1 bandwagon on Near would've been something that everyone could been accountable for in whatever capacity they approached it. You should all be

expecting

this time in the spotlight.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

vote:MBF

I agree I was to blame for the Coron lynch and I regret it, but I do think MBF is a scummy, there has been a lot of accusations and very hostile reactions, including finger pointing and ghost chasing on his part.

I find him to be the most scummy of the current players

[mikeburnfire]

Plain townie is more dispensable than a tracker, but not by much. And a townie who I think is townie is a worse lynch than a tracker who I think is scum.

And about his lynch being more useful? Bullshit. If he's town, then his lynch is harmful. Common sense. We can still get information from his bandwagon without killing him.

No lynch is not always an anti-town play, and given my other options I felt is was the best choice. I could have vote no lynch, but I chose not to. How are my messages mixed? I'm pretty simple on this. I wanted him lynched, but I didn't want him speedlynched while I was asleep.

DBE, you haven't given me much to respond to, so I really can't refute your vote.

[mikeburnfire]

Oh, and I'm at L-1 right now, just so I don't get stealth hammered.

[Guardian]

unvote

FOS MBF

but I dont want a claim until I think this thru.

fair warning: MBF if you call this unvote suspicious in any way, I will knee jerk vote you again.

If you find it suspicious thats fine just keep it to yourself.

[mikeburnfire]

I don't consider it suspicious and appreciate the much-needed breathing room.