Mini 559 - Cult Mafia again - Game over

[Battle Mage]

ok im here guys. thanks for having me.

Reading and analysing the game now.

BM

[Battle Mage]

christ, i've written 2 A4 pages of notes, and i've just read upto page 4.

Its gonna be a long night! lol

BM

[Battle Mage]

Reading and analysing the game now.

BM

How's this going?

You could always post what you have so far...

ok. first off, im not lurking. every spare chance i get, im reading through this game. Theres alot of content, and if you dont mind it being unfinished, and possibly inaccurate, i'll post what i have so far.
I didnt realise we were under a deadline, but ok... 0.o

BM

[Battle Mage]

Ok, first useful post of the game comes from Omg. His setup analysis seems pretty protown-it’s the first thing I thought of doing when I looked at the game.
We know there is 1 cultist. Im not totally convinced that we have a GF as opposed to 2 goons. The idea of a GF, is that it belittles the value of a cop. I think the POSSIBILITY of a GF could be enough to serve the same purpose. I mean, all cop innocents are going to be taken with a pinch of salt, which in itself could be the factor that balances it to the town and the cult. I think his comments on the protown power role front are extremely valid. Obviously we have a Cop, and most probably we have a Doctor and an RB. I’m torn about a 4th power role though, as whilst it would undoubtedly reduce the cults power and make it more reasonable, it could eliminate the likelihood of scum claiming power roles (obviously if 4 are already revealed, any more are going to be bogus).
Unfortunately this is where my praise ends. I don’t see the analysis of what COULD happen to be of much value, especially as it is built on false situations. When I first looked at this game, my thought was, “shit we need to kill the cult leader straight away, otherwise we are well and truly f*ed. But upon closer inspection, the odds of a recruitment being successful aren’t that great. Odds are, they will only make a successful recruitment on every 2nd night, which means even by Day 3, they will probably only be the same size as the mafia, except without an NK.
His next post reeks of paranoia. Im not sure where he drew the conclusion that Elias suspected him of being scum, but his reaction leaves me completely bemused.
Dahen is of course correct in saying that not claiming atall is the best policy, although im not sure what he means buy a strategic massclaim later in the game.

Explanation?

Oman’s post 24 is spot on. Good to see Friend of Old pick up on Omg for this. His responses (post 36-38) give a further impression of defensiveness.
Post 40 is made very nervously. Very scummy vibes.
Blazerunners defence of him is also notable.
OMG does explain himself later, but I still think he was protesting a bit too much.
Post 50 is another false dilemma brought up by OMG. Its perhaps the most pathetically obvious mafia excuse I’ve ever seen. You think that, if we had 7 players, including 1 mafia and a cult recruiter, we would choose NOT to lynch the mafia member? Or perhaps more worryingly, you don’t seem to have quite got to grips with the fact that the Cult is an enemy of the town AS WELL AS the Mafia. Note how he aptly neglects to mention the possibility of him being a member of the former.
Then he responds to Xreyox’s assuation of him being overdefensive, with a protest, and then an OMGUS vote. Just rofl. Srsly. Also notable is his seemed unfamiliarity with the townie role pm (referring to it as ‘villager’).
Then Elias chimes in, claiming that:
1. Overdefensiveness is not a scumtell (interested to hear reason for this)
2. OMG posts a lot, so he is probably town. (explanation on this should be forthcoming too)
3. OMG wasn’t being overdefensive anyway, although he was pre-emptively defensive to an unnecessary extent.

0.o

Post 55, and OMG continues pushing the same shite-logic. Here’s a question for ya: How do you suppose we differentiate between cult and mafia? They’re both scum at the end of the day. Using this logic is bad enough, but you are using it to DEFEND YOURSELF?
Post 56 by Elias is a slight change of tune. He suggests that perhaps OMG is posting too much, which is why he gives off a scummy vibe. But I thought posting frequently was a town-tell Elias?
Post 61, Elias claims that OMG is not playing to his town-meta, which is interesting, as it doesn’t appear to look like distancing.
Post 62 is so much bs, its hilarious. Could you get it any MORE wrong?
Post 64 seems paranoid. As far as I can see there was little bias in Xreyox’s question. OMG is still seeming way too defensive, and the fact he doesn’t realise it is all the more scummy.
Post 70 is frustratingly arrogant. Does this guy seriously believe that a pathetic explanation confirms his innocence?! Has he ever played mafia before on this site???
Hate to break it to you dude, but your whole attitude up till now has been defensive. Not entirely unforgivable as you have been legitimately attacked a fair bit, but even so, you cant argue with facts.
Blazerunner steps up to defend OMG, but does ask some pretty relevant questions. Not sure about his ‘village strategy’ though. Cant see how he came up with it, or how it would benefit us ATALL… :$
I really like Friend of Old’s post 77. Pretty much mimics how I’ve been feeling up to this point. Page 4, and Xreyox appears to be taking up the Prolific Poster mantle from OMG.
GhostWriter seems reluctant to talk. Something about him seems telling, but I cant figure out which way he goes yet…
Post 85 seems to be a false dilemma, but Ghost Writer does make it sound convincing I have to say. Sadly his theory comes unstuck at the fact that OMG was acting overdefensive long before he came under pressure for it.

Post 88 made me smile. Sounds like the kind of challenge I love. An incredibly easy one. OMG, I suggest you read everything I’ve said up till now. Then, I challenge you to find me ONE post of yours which ISNT uber-defensive.
In post 89 he is starting to make more sense. In post 90, Blazerunner seems to unintentionally belittle the case on OMG, on false grounds. But can I really find that malicious in a guy who doesn’t know what an FoS is? Lol

Woah, post 94 is ringing serious alarm bells with me. Elias- yep the guy who said posting frequently was a town tell- is now suggesting that OMG deserves a vote for doing this! 0.o
He denies the validity of the over-defensiveness argument, yet does not wonder at the motives of the people pushing such an argument. The meta argument makes his case stronger, but I don’t really feel he is actually scumhunting here.
Dahens post 97 (his first post?) features a good question.
My response to Blazerunner’s suggested strategy is that it is incredibly pro-cult. No lynching gives them a free recruit attempt, and there is no logic I can see for the cop claiming on Day 2, instead of Day 1. Post 103 brings up a strange situation. I actually think that in contrast to his immense faith in his own mafia ability, OMG does not think much of anyone else, and ironically, commits the same offence here that he attacked others for earlier…
In post 104 he again assumes that the mafia defo have a GF. Is this deliberately misleading the town, or is he revealing info? The latter seems more likely imo.
Post 105 by Oman is timely and accurate. Norinel suggests that we may not have a Cop and a Doc atall. Post 110 by Dahen is a little surprising, jumping in with a vote for Oman. His case isn’t terrible, but I think hes looking a little one-sidedly. Anyway, I don’t think its necessarily scum, just probably wrong. Friend of old puts pressure on lurkers. Militants subsequent post is scummy. Post 113 by Ghostwriter makes good sense. OMG requests more hasty bandwagonning.
Elias responds suitably with a vote for OMG. :p
Interesting that Xreyox questions CKD’s vote, and Blazerunner again undermines it. Militants post 122 is frustratingly pointless and dumb. Thank god for Ghostwriter tbh.
Post 124 is strange. CKD continues his vote, whilst admitting his reasons are weak…
Omans defence is strong. LaLaland makes Lalalittle sense… like so many others, he excuses OMG’s scummy play, stating that he finds him innocent, and then chucks a vote on, saying that he is the scummiest player so far. Wtf is that?
Don’t like Xreyox’s post 136. Seems like fabricated reasoning to attack Oman. Either that, or he has serious comprehension problems.
Post 138 by Elias is good. Oman is wrong in post 139. I think the Mod said that the only mafia power role available was a GF, but I could be totally off the mark here.
141 is another stinker by OMG. He says basically that the case on LaLaLand is laughably poor (which I feel is a bit strong) and yet he decides to put pressure on, despite having no reason to believe he is scum. Im not buying post 142 either. If I can understand what Oman means, theres no excuse for anyone else. Post 143 by Dahen made me smile with its legitimacy. 
Post 147 does kind of invoke sympathy for LaLaLand. I mean, his family deal in DOLLARS ffs. 0.o Him choosing not to play the newbie card is a towntell.
Post 148 makes Elias sound remarkably similar to LLL who he attacked for wanting a random lynch. Rofl
Post 151 makes me like OMG slightly more. He shares my policy on LaL, and he DID succeed in getting a lurker to post. Maybe once we’ve lynched you, we can meet up for a drink?
It worries me that in Post 153, XReyox looks like he wants to use LLL’s honesty as a reason to vote him…
Post 155 is a funny one. Mr

OMG

US USA 2008 votes for Xreyox, and I especially like his way of validating it to a ridiculously superficial extent. Somehow, Xreyox misreading him at the start of the post, turns into ‘Continuous Anti-Town Behaviour’ by the end! Lol
Friend of Old steps in with a good post. Elias, Elias, Elias. Where were you when I needed you in Clue Mafia?? Post 163 by Xreyox is shit-logic btw. Through and through.
Post 165 is fair enough, but it doesn’t explain why on earth OMG felt the need to mention his meta in the first place. It just gives the scum more chance of outguessing him. I should note that I disagree with Xreyox’s assuation that a Doc is more useful than an RB. I’d say an RB > Doc but a Cop > RB in terms of ability to help the town catch scum. His suggestion that a Mafia RB might be suspected is only true if the RB blocks a CLAIMED POWER ROLE, which is a false dilemma.
Ghostwriter defends OMG.
Elias claims that wagon on OMG is baseless in agreement with him. Post 173 by Blazerunner wins the BEST POST OF THE GAME AWARD! *insert copyright symbol here*
I should note that, following on from that, the ideal stance with regard to claiming, is either to not do it atall, or to make sure that everyone is aware that the claims MAY not be true. Giving the scum indication of the truthfulness of our claim is bad play.
175 is a strange post. Id like to think it’s a joke, but… 0.o
I feel Blazerunners vote on Elias is justified. It is possible that he is setting up for a scum gambit later on.
Post 186 is interesting. Im not sure I like the way Norinel bailed from the dying wagon there. Post 187 is remarkably protown by OMG. Its not how id expect scum to behave. Oh and the stuff about scum being somehow more intelligent and more able to crack WIFOM than town seems like BS to me. I mean 2 heads are better than one, but I don’t think we should be shitting ourselves just yet. Lol
I think Blazerunner lets Elias off lightly. Xreyox makes little sense at the end of Page 8/start of Page 9.
Odd that Dahen cites the first protown post OMG makes as being the first SCUMMY one. 0.0 Post 204 seems a bit impatient with regard to Ghostrider from Xreyox. Oman stinks of town. Elias on the other hand, seems a bit forced in his constant, unrelenting defence of OMG.
Post 212. OMG is back. OMGUSes GSGold. In post 213 he admits his logical error, but doesn’t take the vote off.
Need I say again that Xreyox’s logic is terrible. Oman has been spot on this game, probably because he’s played the setup before. Wagon on GS builds on grounds of lurking. Cant say I think its scummy to BW a lurker.

Ok im at the start of Page 10. Heres my LoS so far:

OMG – Highly Scummy
Elias- Fairly Scummy

Militant- Slightly Scummy
LaLaLand- Slightly Scummy (now Xtoxm)
XreyoX- Slightly scummy

Norinel- Neutral
Dahen- Neutral
BlazeRunner- Neutral

Ghostwriter- Fairly Protown
FriendofOld- Very protown
Oman- Highly protown

Anyone ranked Fairly Scummy or higher is someone I’d be willing to lynch on the spot. Anyone ranked Slightly scummy is one to keep an eye on, and could be lynchable in the future.
Anyone ranked neutral, I cant really find anything major that suggests they are either protown or anti-town.
Fairly Protown means that im leaning towards protown, but not absolutely sure.
Very Protown or above means you are virtually beyond reproach, and im nearly certain that you are town, or at the very least, not going to be lynched for a while.

I’ll continue reading over the weekend fo’ sure. In meantime,

Unvote, Vote: OMG

if I am not already.

BM

[Battle Mage]

ah sorry. i mustve put that on the wrong line. :p

[Battle Mage]

Thoughts on BM's thoughts:

1) Overdefensiveness is not a scumtell. Townies do not have survivor win conditions, its true, but its only instinct to try to prevent your own lynch. Defensiveness is a key part of my town play. Also, being very defensive is good town play, as one less townie candidate for lynch = that much more chance of scum being lynched.

I disagree. In fact, overdefensiveness is a great scumtell because it so neatly excludes the majority of townies. Simply put, scum need to survive to win. Townies dont TO THE SAME EXTENT. Equally, townies tend not to be defensive to start with. A defensive townie is useless. We want aggressive townies who keep scum on their toes, and are constantly watching for slips. If a player is not scumhunting, and instead seems to be solely concerned with his own survival, he is probably scum.

2) NOWHERE did I say that posting frequently was a town tell in general. I said I was getting a town feel from him early on based on his high activity level. That doesnt mean that he can just post a lot the rest of the day and be town, and at a certain point overactivity seems fishy to me.

Ah ok. I guess you didnt make this last point clear. So posting alot at the start of the day, when little of value is being discussed is ok, but posting alot when the town gets into its stride is real fishy, right?

3) Post 148 is by no means similar to LLL. LLL was suggesting a random lynch. I was suggesting a random

wagon

. Random wagons are extremely good for town. They force players to actually take a stand, they garner information about the playrs reaction, and in general create discussion. Comparing random wagons to random lynches is really dumb, and I thought you were experiened enough to know the difference.

Ok ill concede this one, although tbh, i cant see what you are expecting to happen.

Elias: Lets start a random wagon
OMG: Lets wagon BM
Scum: Yep lets show ourselves to be BWing retards. lol

But on a serious note, yes i get what you're saying.

4) I am defending OMG adamantly because I've played with him twice before and seen lynched for weak reasons that were spurred on by bad reactions on his part. Both times he's been town.

link me to these games please.

BM

[Battle Mage]

OK, I've isolated the stuffs that you've said against me so that I can adress them a little bit easier.

Page 4, and Xreyox appears to be taking up the Prolific Poster mantle from OMG.

Is that scummy?

It isnt. But then i never said it was. lol

Interesting that Xreyox questions CKD’s vote, and Blazerunner again undermines it.

What is CKD?

CKD is what i call CuriousKarmaDog. Which is odd because he is the Mod. I guess i mustve made a mistake. It should be pretty apparent who i meant if u read back. The entire analysis is done in chronological order.

Don’t like Xreyox’s post 136. Seems like fabricated reasoning to attack Oman. Either that, or he has serious comprehension problems.

Could you explain how it looks facbricated?
The first half is me explaining why i think fakeclaiming is not beneficial and the second half is me misreading oman's post. He has explained it 3 posts below mine.

Correction. The first half is you trying to make Oman's suggested strategy seem scummy, when in fact it is not. The second half is you misrepresenting him further. I did say that it could just be that you didnt understand any of what Oman had said.

It worries me that in Post 153, XReyox looks like he wants to use LLL’s honesty as a reason to vote him…

Anyone who have played mafia would know that random lynch is almost the worst thing you can do. when lalaland suggested it, I assumed that she is completely new to the game. I really don't think player who has at least some experience would suggest that. Or are you saying you support the idea of random lynch?

Exactly. And someone with even the slightest amount of experience understands the concept of the 'newbie card'. LLL chose not to play it, and made himself look scummier, but in a way i felt was genuine.

Post 163 by Xreyox is shit-logic btw. Through and through.

Point it out for me please. ?

its post 163. If you really think any of it valid, repost it, and ill happily take it apart for you.

should note that I disagree with Xreyox’s assuation that a Doc is more useful than an RB. I’d say an RB > Doc but a Cop > RB in terms of ability to help the town catch scum.

It's just a different point of view. I only believe that Doc is more useful because his ability can only be beneficial to the town.

You've never played a game with multiple killing groups?

On the other hand, roleblocker can prevent town power roles from performing their night actions as well. Assuming that the number of town power roles is usually higher than that of the mafia, the chance of a role blocker causing negative effects on the town is higher.

But the advantage would be that the RB could be confirmed by the blocked power role, and so even a worst case scenario achieves some good.

His suggestion that a Mafia RB might be suspected is only true if the RB blocks a CLAIMED POWER ROLE, which is a false dilemma.

I did not say that its only true if the RB blocks a claimed power role. Why would a Town RB want block a claimed power role?

EXACTLY. If an UNCLAIMED, UNCONFIRMED power role gets blocked, it is quite possible that the RBer was still protown. Its only if the power role has claimed and is widely believed that you would have reason to suspect a Mafia RB.

Xreyox makes little sense at the end of Page 8/start of Page 9.

OK

ok.

BM

[Battle Mage]

First off, sorry to BM for saying he was lurking, I hadnt realized his reading about the game was gonna be that detailed. His result justifies the time he spent without posting

Now, I started reading the game again, checking BM and Dahen's comments on their re-reads, and I realized I dont know what WIFOM means, i didnt want to ask when the game started, thinking I would eventually understand, but I am still confused...

Looks to me like something about metagame, but I dont quite understand it, and I think it is critical to understand, so I can re-read the game better

gd thinking. WIFOM is nothing to do with metagame. Its kind of hard to explain. Id reccommend reading the wiki. Or alternatively, look in mafia discussion. MoS made a thread on it a little while back.

also @Xreyox- i forgot to add that commenting only on things that pertain to you is slightly scummy. Id at least reccommend reading the stuff relating to your main suspects. I can be as guilty of this as the next guy, but it'd be nice if u have time to respond to the rest.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Also, BM, i stopped reading your post at:

His next post reeks of paranoia. Im not sure where he drew the conclusion that Elias suspected him of being scum, but his reaction leaves me completely bemused.

If you are not even going to bother to try to understand something that has been clarified about 6 times already im not going to go back over it with you. Its not my job to hold the hands and walk people through this game if they cant be bothered to put in any effort at all.

Cut the crap with me kiddo. Firstly i read through the game chronologically, so when i wrote that, i hadnt read your numerous subsequent excuses. Secondly, they were all poor, and dont excuse your original behaviour in my mind.

Ill respond to some more of your posts when i can. Mod, if you could please fix the tags of my earlier post, thatd be great thanks

BM

fixed

[Battle Mage]

^ i wholeheartedly endorse the above post.

[Battle Mage]

Ok i tried a little more, but this is just frustrating to read how ridiculous that post is.

Post 50 is another false dilemma brought up by OMG. Its perhaps the most pathetically obvious mafia excuse I’ve ever seen. You think that, if we had 7 players, including 1 mafia and a cult recruiter, we would choose NOT to lynch the mafia member? Or perhaps more worryingly, you don’t seem to have quite got to grips with the fact that the Cult is an enemy of the town AS WELL AS the Mafia. Note how he aptly neglects to mention the possibility of him being a member of the former.

Please please just go use a dictionary yourself and find out what the words 'analogy' and 'hypothetical' mean. Please just put in 5 minutes of effort. If you still dont understand then by all means ask me and we can waste another 3 pages with me explaining it to you.

lol. do me a favour and dont try and act patronising if CKD's been good enough to allow you to play this game. Your idea of a hypothetical analogy appears to be an ill-considered pro-scum argument in the history of MS. I think i'd get more sensible conversation out of a fruit salad. Srsly. -.-

BM

[Battle Mage]

I should probably address this tho:

In post 104 he again assumes that the mafia defo have a GF. Is this deliberately misleading the town, or is he revealing info? The latter seems more likely imo.

When I first read the original post (I dont play on this site much), I read it as: "Mafia PM's: then two mafia pms below". I was under the impression that as there were 2 mafia in the game, and 2 mafia pms listed, that those were the 2 pms that were sent out to mafia. I assumed from the OP that the role setup was 1 cultist, 1 mafia goon, 1 mafia godfather, and then an unknown amount of village power roles to enable those bad guys to claim easier. I also further assumed that if there was a godfather in the game then there must also be a cop, otherwise the godfather role would be useless. I mention this in my earlier posts.

yep thats fair enough. Of course there is almost certainly a Cop anyway, in order to allow for the WIFOM of a GF.

I didnt want to discuss this earlier, because I felt it would be really angleshooty and unfair to the real scum, as if i didnt know this then I am pretty much 100% town/cultist. I was quite happy to let it go and just play on without taking the unfair advantage of angleshooting.

Im not familiar with the term 'angleshooting'. But if what you are saying is that you are worried about being confirmed town-dont be. In fact, even implying that it makes you confirmed town is incredibly scummy. It could only even be CONSIDERED a towntell, if the scum have 2 goons, which is far from proven. And even then, im not sure it holds up.

And anyway, why the f*** would you NOT want to clear yourself of being scum? I mean, im all for fair play, but if i thought id given off a massive towntell, id want people to know about it, so i didnt get lynched. Your motivation in this game is getting wierder and wierder.

However, as unbelievable as it is someone is actually reading this as a 'scumtell', I feel I should address it now. You forced my hand, I do apologise to the real scum but it was a simple misunderstanding.

rofl. Yeh, its CRAZY to think that an obvious mafia slip up could be a scumtell. What was i thinking eh?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Correction. The first half is you trying to make Oman's suggested strategy seem scummy, when in fact it is not. The second half is you misrepresenting him further. I did say that it could just be that you didnt understand any of what Oman had said.

I wasn't trying trying to make Oman's suggested strategy seem scummy. I still believe it is scummy because it confuses the town and allow the scum to make an excuse to fakeclaim as well. Still... no one has given me an example of how effective fakeclaiming on the town side can be so the strategy isn't back up by previous games or anything.

The basic idea is, Cult wants to find townies, Mafia wants to find power roles. If the Cult targets a power role, they dont get anything. If the Mafia target a townie, we dont lose a power role. Its basic logic to want to confuse them.
Examples of fakeclaiming in normal games are claiming cop as a doc, as i did in Clue. It did backfire in the end, but my claim ensured that i survived to endgame as opposed to dying Night 1.

Exactly. And someone with even the slightest amount of experience understands the concept of the 'newbie card'. LLL chose not to play it, and made himself look scummier, but in a way i felt was genuine.

Actually, choosing not to play the newbie card was one of my scum tactics. I won 2 games as scums when I first joined. I don't know whether doing so actually contribute to me winning the game or not but i did say, don't treat me like a newbie and attack me if you find me scummy, thinking it would make me look pro-town.

Yeah, so you did it because it looked protown. Difference here is, i dont think LLL was quite competent enough to do that, and her post felt genuine.

its post 163. If you really think any of it valid, repost it, and ill happily take it apart for you.

Break me down for it please. AND with links to games if possible.

links to games?
Have you even READ the post in question?

You've never played a game with multiple killing groups?

I have but this is not one of those, is it?

true enough

But the advantage would be that the RB could be confirmed by the blocked power role, and so even a worst case scenario achieves some good.

A RB can be confirmed, but you won't know which side he is on. Pretty pointless don't you think? On the other hand a doc can also be confirmed by misskills. The scums can choose not to kill at night but it would be their loss. In this game, it would be even worse for them if they do so as the cult will keep growing.

Lol Mafia RB is generally pretty rare. Id even say more rare than a mafia choosing not to kill, or the doc protecting against a kill that would have hit scum.

His suggestion that a Mafia RB might be suspected is only true if the RB blocks a CLAIMED POWER ROLE, which is a false dilemma.

I did not say that its only true if the RB blocks a claimed power role. Why would a Town RB want block a claimed power role?

????? OK, lets say someone claims to be a cop but it is not confirmed. Why would you block him if you're a town RB? How is that beneficial to the town?

what the fuck are you talking about? A town RB isnt going to block a claimed cop unless he has a V good reason. You seem to be insinuating that anyone who considers blocking a claimed power role MUST be a mafia RB, which is untrue.

BM

[Battle Mage]

what the fuck are you talking about? A town RB isnt going to block a claimed cop unless he has a V good reason. You seem to be insinuating that anyone who considers blocking a claimed power role MUST be a mafia RB, which is untrue.

Thats what I'm saying. A TOWN RB isn't going to block a claimed cop unless has a V good reason. So if you're a claimed cop and you get blocked, what do you think?

*sigh* this is not what you originally said. You said that if an unclaimed power role was blocked we should assume a mafia RB which is incorrect.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Sorry but the argument that omg and elias can't be scum together is classic WIFOM.

Look at this quote about it:

In Mafia, WIFOM arguments are often a Scum tactic used to distract the Town. The scum will make an unusual play at night, which would lead to a situation that would 'clear' them (because players will think, "Why would a scum do that?"). These arguments are sometimes used by Newbies and should be avoided in favor of clearer arguments.

Elias could have made that comment about omg intentionally as an unusual play so that later it will look like "but scum wouldn't do that!"

It's just too hard to guess.

actually i see what Blazerunner is trying to say. Why would Elias draw such attention to himself? Except you forget that with 2 mafia in the game, they arent going to want to see the other die on Day 1. I dont think its unreasonable that he would defend his buddy outright, as he can always call in the WIFOM argument later.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Simply put, scum need to survive to win. Townies dont TO THE SAME EXTENT.

Actually, scum dont need to survive to win. Lots of gambits involve scum sacrificing themselves to help the town, and bussing is common practice. With experienced scum, the instinct to survive really shouldnt be something exhibited.

In this game they do. With only 2 mafia and a Cult Recruiter, bussing isnt something i expect to see for a while yet. Ive never yet seen a scum gambit which was designed to help the town.

Equally, townies tend not to be defensive to start with.

Not true. Noobs will instinctively defend themselves adamantly, not because they want to stay in for town benefit, but because they dont want to stop playing. Its two motives working against eachother, but it varies whether noob townies fall into it or not.

theres a difference between defending yourself adamantly and being more concerned with your own survival than your victory in the game.

A defensive townie is useless.

Thats not true either. A townie who successfully defends himself stops a townie lynch and increases the likelihood of a scum lynch. Also, once he has defended himself sufficiently he can go back to scumhunting.

A defensive townie will not successfully defend himself. A defensive townie gets lynched BECAUSE he is defensive. If a townie isnt scumhunting at all times, he isnt doing his job, although obviously i appreciate that he has to try and survive aswell.

We want aggressive townies who keep scum on their toes, and are constantly watching for slips. If a player is not scumhunting, and instead seems to be solely concerned with his own survival, he is probably scum.

The last part is again, not true.

I guess that is subject to experience. How many games have you played on MS?

link me to these games please.

Mini 417
Mini 424

will check over those games when i get time.

BM

[Battle Mage]

On the one hand, it feels good to see a lot of huge posts that aren't just OMG vs. the world. On the other hand, my brain's sort of glazing over most of it right now, but here are a few points I thought were interesting.

what the fuck are you talking about? A town RB isnt going to block a claimed cop unless he has a V good reason. You seem to be insinuating that anyone who considers blocking a claimed power role MUST be a mafia RB, which is untrue.

Thats what I'm saying. A TOWN RB isn't going to block a claimed cop unless has a V good reason. So if you're a claimed cop and you get blocked, what do you think?

I'm not sure where this argument started- BM seems to be arguing that Xreyo is proposing an unreasonable extreme, but I'm not seeing it.

Umm, you might wanna try going back and reading the original point. The actual discussion was over whether or not a power role getting RBed was necessarily the work of a Mafia RB, which, if the power role hadnt claimed, is of course not true.

BM

[Battle Mage]

rofl @ the idea of me and elias being scum together.

man that would have been fun.

battle mage - do you or do you not understand what an analogy is? you made it clear repeatedly in your earlier post that you didnt understand the language i was using, and thats fair enough, i should have been clearer. the misunderstandings are basically both our faults, and like i said i will not use such complex language again (i am used to playing with ppl that speak similarly to myself).

please reread post 339 and nothing else. explain to me which of my actions there is scummy. anything that isnt in post 339 YOU HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD. i cant make this clearer for you. im not going to waste everyones time spending 3 pages explaining each little thing. im sorry for writing in complex language earlier and i will not write in such language again.

please address post 339 and then explain your vote.

lol im not an idiot. I know what an analogy is. I just dont understand how you think that your suicidal strategies can be excused by using the 'a' word. Give me some context to work from please.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Actually, you know what, lynching a townie is a great result for us today. It saves our power roles from claiming, and it means the cultist is completely in the dark tonite.

Also, and more importantly - If i wasnt to die, any cultist with an IQ >50 would be able to see that i was obviously a townie given my earlier give away about not being scum, and would recruit me tonight.

So much right now is confusing as heck because people cant see for sure that I am pro-town. Some people are having a lot of trouble understanding the things I have written, and I think things would be a lot clearer if I was dead and proven townie. Then you can all look back on today and actually look at who was pushing me with craplogic (FoO), and who was defending me with no reason (Elias).

This may be unorthodox, but this is not me giving up, this is me truly doing what I feel is best for the village, me surviving today ensures I get recruited tonite and thus makes a town victory very difficult. Gl guys, someone hammer please.

Unvote, Vote: Omg_im_innocent_wtf

Also - Mod please pm me the roles of scum/cultist after I die, my final guess is:

Scum - FoO, Elias
Cultist - Battle Mage

lol. that about wraps it up i think. You are Mafia. (cult recruiter would not risk suicide like this). If you seriously thought the cult would try and recruit you, you are actually crazy. You are so obviously scum, its untrue, and i think the bussing implicates ur buddy as Elias.

Confirm Vote

BM

[Battle Mage]

Dude...if he's scum, its completely WIFOM where he put his suspicions...

WIFOM or not, its what we do in Mafia. when scum dies, we use the info in order to draw conclusions about their buddies.

BM

[Battle Mage]

"shot" is a vig IMO, but it can be either.

just to confirm, 'shot gun' is the flavour used for vigs. This fits with the kill choice, and the fact we only have 1 anti-town killing faction.

It appears my scumdar has been WAY off, this game. I'm going to look carefully at the behaviour surrounding yesterdays lynch and see if that fares me better.

I dont think our situation is terrible, though it could be better. On the one hand, it is highly likely that the cult recruiter failed last night, which means we still have 3 scum at this point. On the other hand, we could do with hitting a mafia member today, or with our vig tonight.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I think a BM or Oman lynch is the way to go.

Y?

[Battle Mage]

I think a BM or Oman lynch is the way to go.

Y?

Think I said yesterday?

Basically I think you are scum.

Don't be stupid. Are you just messing around, or are you holding out on us with an actual explanation?

[Battle Mage]

I am basically continuing on from yesterday. I thought OMG was quite clearly town, and Blazerunner was looking very much like newbie town, which is reasonable for the scum to get rid of early.

So how does this make me scum?

Another question to think about - Who is likely to have been a target for the cult's recruit? I think Elias was considered scummy enough for him to be out. I don't think a recruit of a newer player is at all likely. Were I recruiter I know i'd want to go after one of the most experienced players in the game. Our best hope is that the recruiter hit a scum or town power role.

Ofcourse, this question only works perfectly if the cult recruiter is none of us alive. But I think the target would have fallen on one of Oman, BM, XReyoX. Reyo because of the large activity, Oman BM cause they are the pro's around here.

I was thinking this too actually, but then realised that it was pointless to speculate as killing a recruit is pretty pointless atm.
I cant see anyone recruiting Xreyox looking objectively, because his play hasnt exactly been spotless.
As far as experience goes, Norinel far exceeds either me or Oman. If i recall, so does Dahen.

BM

[Battle Mage]

:good posting:

[Battle Mage]

As far as the mafia power role things goes, don't all the standard ones only mess around with the town power roles anyway? (GF only makes a difference if there's a cop/vig, roleblocker only interferes with power roles, framer makes life harder for the cop) With only a handful of town roles total, and none of them outed yet except the vig, I don't see why speculation does much good. It'd probably just do more to expose the power roles.

True, I don't see what speculating on mafia power roles can accomplish. Nothing good for town.

Good things for mafia though, xToxm.

wait. what?

How does discussing mafia power roles benefit the mafia? 0.o

BM

[Battle Mage]

As far as the mafia power role things goes, don't all the standard ones only mess around with the town power roles anyway? (GF only makes a difference if there's a cop/vig, roleblocker only interferes with power roles, framer makes life harder for the cop) With only a handful of town roles total, and none of them outed yet except the vig, I don't see why speculation does much good. It'd probably just do more to expose the power roles.

True, I don't see what speculating on mafia power roles can accomplish. Nothing good for town.

Good things for mafia though, xToxm.

wait. what?

How does discussing mafia power roles benefit the mafia? 0.o

BM

In the way of outing pro-town power roles through clues someone might drop in discussion.

Do you think discussion potential power roles can benefit town? I mean, I'm happy to be proven wrong....

no, im just saying that i think you trying to paint it as anything other than an inexperience tell, is suspicious.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Okay, if we look at this at face value (the vig will kill Xtom tonight if he is fakeclaiming) and say that Xtom is a powerrole, he is NOT CULT. This is big, we have one guarenteed non-cultist. Meaning that even though vig is a dicey role in this game (I know I was the vig last game).

I say we are at a very interesting decision here.

let 1 townpowerrole = doc:

Let Xtoxm = Vigilantee -> obviously protecting him from night kills is the best move as we have a confirmed townie with no cult-ableness.

Let Xtoxm = Scum -> obviously the vig will try to kill him, but the doc should protect him (see Xtoxm = vigilantee).

Thus, I think that contrary to standard vig play any vigilantee should counterclaim now, if not, we should accept that Xtoxm IS town.

This makes major sense.

Not Vig

BM

[Battle Mage]

Bah. Congratulations, Battle Mage. Happy Birthday!

Gee, i feel really bad about NKing you now.

(joke)

BM

[Battle Mage]

Hey dahen, I'm more interested in your thoughts about various people rather than a summary of what we did.

My thoughts exactly. I know it can be hard not to just retall what happened, but its good if you can make some judgements on events as you read through.

BM

[Battle Mage]

that said, from his LoS, i'm 95% sure he's town.

[Battle Mage]

that said, from his LoS, i'm 95% sure he's town.

....That probably means he is scum.......

Are you saying my scumdar is shit?

*runs and hides in a corner*



BM

[Battle Mage]

What does LoS mean?

List of Suspects normally, although i prefer the acronym definition of League of Suspicion, seeing as it follows that format.

Also

FoS: Xreyox

reluctance to get a unanimously declared townie is a scumtell. Of course, this FoS wont bother you, because it probably means you are town, right?
lol

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM, I don't understand what you mean there, could you try to explain better?

Why to you think Reyo is scum?

I personally find him very town.

Let me tell u a story.

Player A is protown.
Player A makes an analysis.
Everyone in the town thinks that Player A is probably protown.
Player B is scum.
Player B doesnt especially want to eliminate a potential mislynch, so he argues against the decision of the town.

Its only a scenario, but ive done it on numerous occassions as scum. As such, i consider it a pretty reliable scumtell.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Not everyone has commented on this. But for the moment, the "everyone" you are referring to is only you, xtoxm and GW.

Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with me not agreeing with most of the town. And I certain don't think because everyone thinks he is town I'll then have to agree. I can judge on my own, i think, and I hope.

-.-

Thats not what i'm saying. I'm saying that it is generally scum who want to keep their options open. Thats what i felt you were doing.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM, I don't understand what you mean there, could you try to explain better?

Why to you think Reyo is scum?

I personally find him very town.

Let me tell u a story.

Player A is protown.
Player A makes an analysis.
Everyone in the town thinks that Player A is probably protown.
Player B is scum.
Player B doesnt especially want to eliminate a potential mislynch, so he argues against the decision of the town.

Its only a scenario, but ive done it on numerous occassions as scum. As such, i consider it a pretty reliable scumtell.

BM

It looks like that is what you are doing to Reyo, and I think his not dismissing of dahen is compeltely warranted.

unvote vote BM

.

Umm, What?

I'm dismissing Xreyox as scum? I'm going against the majority by saying that he is a suspect?

I dont understand this post atall. Please explain.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm saying it looks like you are doing what you just accused Reyo of doing, to me.

I dont understand. I dont even disagree. I dont understand how i could possibly be guilty of the same thing i accused him of. Please elaborate properly.

[Battle Mage]

I agree that that is a frequent scum reaction -- the more people you either confirm as town or express that you think they are townish -- the harder it is for you to hide and get somebody else lynched.

I don't agree with that because once a scum knows that everyone thinks someone is town, disagreeing with everyone else won't do him any good.

As was pointed out earlier, 3 people is not 'everyone'.

[Battle Mage]

Maybe because a lot of people have said they think reyo is town?

really?
if that is the case, i wasnt payin attention. But yeh, i can see how you could think that.

BM

[Battle Mage]

ooi, how many people think Reyo is probably town?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Ah there u are Xtoxm. You can save me the hassle of proving your point for you. Please go and prove that everyone here thinks Xreyox is town. Theres a good lad.

BM

[Battle Mage]

you said that alot did. Unless you are now retracting your point, about me being a hypocrite?

BM

[Battle Mage]

My point is/was that are trying to generate suspicion to a player I strongly believe is town, atm.

thats a false comparison. My point was about people attacking someone who is WIDELY regarded as town. if 3 people is a loose definition, 1 person just doesnt cut it. Why is your vote still on me?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Cause I think you are scum.

Do you find it scummy that I don't unvote you.

How many players stated they thought dahen was town? 8, 9?

im not sure. not a majority of the town, but a majority of active players fo sure. There were no dissenters at least.

And yes i do find it scummy that you maintain a vote that is based upon logic which you can clearly see is bogus.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Aren't we accepting xtoxm is the vig... and thus NOT scum?

I believe xtoxm is the vig and I believe BM's scumdar is broken.

this brings back painful memories. lol

[Battle Mage]

dont be silly. Of course he's the vig. And i'm the vigmeat. :p

[Battle Mage]

Well, I'm still here!

The thing that sticks in my head about Norinel is how he said

I suppose he is right that his lynch will give us a place to start tomorrow, but let's not forget that even if he does come up townie, each of the rest of us has just as much of a functioning confirmed pro-town brain as he does.

unvote: GW, vote: OMG makes a hammer.

I did think the last two votes in half an hour was pretty suspicious. But aside from that and the fact that Norinel was hammering, I just don't like how he says "Let's remember that anyone who lynched OMG is probably town because he's acting like this." The fact that he wants to get that in before his vote, it's like he already knows OMG is town... and don't hold him (or other scum) responsible.

And nowhere have I seen Norinel scumhunting hardcore today because "the OMG lynch gave so much info." How much info can it really give if it was townish to vote him?

Anybody else agree?

I also think FOO is maybe scum, but too tired to look back at his posts to say why exactly.

:GREAT posting:

FoS: Norinel

[Battle Mage]

I just wanted OMG out really, his attitude was annoying and he had to use several posts instead of poting just one long one.

Annoying attitude =/= scum
Using several posts instead of one long one =/=scum
Thus your vote is based on OMGUS.

actually i have to concede, your post does not make for a good case validation.
And has anyone else noticed that all Friend of Olds suspects are pretty much based on lurking?

BM

[Battle Mage]

FoO's LoS is rubbish. Basicly, he could have summarized it into:

Town-People who are active.
Scum-People who post little.

You only just noticed that? lol

I dont think FoO is scum ftr. Just his scumdar is worse than mine atm. lol

BM

[Battle Mage]

Even though his top suspect is dahen, and you already made this big deal about confirming dahen and everybody who thinks dahen is scum must be scum?

FoO clearly isnt going all out to attack Dahen. Im not even sure if hes aware of the recent discussion. You are misrepresenting me here.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm majorly busy atm, and unable to do anything useful here for now. Dont do anything crazy in my absence please, and ill give this game the attention it deserves, soon.

BM

[Battle Mage]

lynching Oman is stupid. need i say more?

[Battle Mage]

Actually, I haven't been ignoring prods. In a few games (so that it wasn't alignment based) I've been trying to try out lurking as people seem to think LAL is wrong. So I'm trying to get perspective. Unfortunatly, my findings aren't really ready, but I just don't feel right doing it any more.

Sorry.

XReyoX, why would you lynch me?

Can you prove that your affiliation in the test games was mixed?
currently my meta says you are scum, despite everything else about you telling me otherwise.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm trying to WIFOM as much as possible XReyoX.


BTW: I am actually the doc, and I won't be protecting the vig tonight.

*sigh*

Ok Oman is town. Either that, or he's just pulled off the most elaborate gambit ever.

I just really wish you hadnt fully claimed. I dont think anyone else picked up on your breadcrumb early on.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Thats why I don't see the reason. He has anounced that he would claim whatever. This is just so random and out of the blue that any scum/cult or whoever would know its pointless and its an unreliable claim. What I don't see is reason why he bothered to post that and not something more useful maybe?

well in fairness to him, he breadcrumbed to the extent that any other claim would have got him lynched instantly (for my part at least).

BM

[Battle Mage]

Thats why I don't see the reason. He has anounced that he would claim whatever. This is just so random and out of the blue that any scum/cult or whoever would know its pointless and its an unreliable claim. What I don't see is reason why he bothered to post that and not something more useful maybe?

well in fairness to him, he breadcrumbed to the extent that any other claim would have got him lynched instantly (for my part at least).

BM

Half the point of a breadcrumb is that if you don't point it out everyone else misses it, right?

Well apparently the mafia didnt notice his breadcrumb, otherwise he'd he dead. (assuming he isnt mafia himself).

BM

[Battle Mage]

I missed his claim.

BM, who do you want to lynch then?

currently Xreyox is clearly the scummiest player here. I'll give my case tomorrow afternoon-it be bedtime now.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Reply to Norinel:

I don't think he was breadcrumbing he is a doc. He has made it clear that he would claim something random. There is no telling what he is claiming is true or fake. I just don't see why he is doing it now. Both uneccassery and confusing. I don't know.

he has clearly breadcrumbed doc. Whether it is true or not is questionable, but you cant refute the FACTS. You just want to see a power-role lynch today.

xtoxm. I hate you for being the vig. I wish I can just do this bizzare "I want him lynched now" thing and not worry about anything. I guess if I do that, the scums or cult or whoever whatever are just going to get me lynched.

confessed concerned about the presence of a Vig-meaning that he is worried about being targetted, and is trying to butt-kiss.

BM

[Battle Mage]

xtomx, i think we're dead. I think the cult and the scums have united.

Appeal to Authority.

[Battle Mage]

Will be away for the weekend. I might not be able to post until monday.

thats funny. Monday is the last day before the deadline. Dont suppose you'll be popping up just to drop a hammer, will you?


This guy is so transparent, and we still have enough time to lynch him. I dont want us to end the day with a NL.

Vote: Xreyox

BM

*more evidence of his sins to come later tonight.

[Battle Mage]

Bro, we've had this discussion before. Do you trust me, or not?

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'd say Oman and FoO stands equally at the moment. I'll need to read again >_<

If we mislynch again today, we'll start with a really bad position tmr.

The worst case scenario would be 1 town left and that would be xtoxm.

the above post doesnt make sense. An explanation should be forecoming. Also interesting that ur top 2 suspects are the two most protown looking players in the game...

BM

[Battle Mage]

XReyoX, why would you lynch me?

Because I don't have a reason not to.

0.o

You think this guy is town!?

[Battle Mage]

I disagree. Oman has been my top suspect for a long time...

He claimed Doc, which is something he clearly breadcrumbed from the start of the game. I dont think he is the play atm, seeing as night actions will confirm/refute him. The only scummy aspect of his play is the meta (lurking) but everything else has been exemplary protown play.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Bro, we've had this discussion before. Do you trust me, or not?

BM

I wanted to lynch your predecessor

I'm getting deja vu. When did we switch roles like this?

and now you are going after the one who I think is most pro-town.

You

sure

thats not just because he's kissing ur ass like its his job?

BM

[Battle Mage]

I disagree. Oman has been my top suspect for a long time...

He claimed Doc, which is something he clearly breadcrumbed from the start of the game. I dont think he is the play atm, seeing as night actions will confirm/refute him. The only scummy aspect of his play is the meta (lurking) but everything else has been exemplary protown play.

BM

I strongly disagree. I read through and didn't see any breadcrumb, and even then it doesn't prove he's doc.

He even said he had no intention of protecting me, which is his pre-emptive excuse for me dying and not him.

Thats WIFOM u idiot...
The idea being that scum will think that they can get a free shot at you, and he can block an NK, and still live. Duh..

I'll pick out his breadcrumbs for you in a sec.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Bro, we've had this discussion before. Do you trust me, or not?

BM

I wanted to lynch your predecessor

I'm getting deja vu. When did we switch roles like this?

and now you are going after the one who I think is most pro-town.

You

sure

thats not just because he's kissing ur ass like its his job?

BM

Looks like that's what you're doing, not him.

*sigh*
You'd better Vig me then. Maybe then you might get a fricking grip, and realise that you're being lead on a merry march by scum.

Oh and i cant really quote Omans breadcrumbs, since they feature in about 10 different posts of his. Just look through his posts in isolation and look how many times he mentions that role. Far more than is natural.
I believe i even subtly commented on it in my opening game analysis.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM, if you’re going to make a case against me, then please do it quicker so I can get it over with before I leave. I don’t see any breadcrumb from Oman.

Ive made several comments already that u need to respond to. If you dont see a breadcrumb from Oman, you obviously havent bothered looking.

Deadline is on Tuesday, and we're at -1. Dont hammer yet. I'll do it when we've finished talking.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Xtoxm- i actually dont mind taking a bullet, if you can promise me that when i come up town, you lynch Xreyox.

BM

[Battle Mage]

*sigh*

I'm the Cop.

Innocent Investigation on Elias Night 1.

Unvote, Vote: FoO

Pleasant dreams.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM...Got anything useful?

Erm not as such. The Cop-claim was a gambit, which didnt really work, although in a sense it did...

Although i am a little confused. Why would the scum, with 3 claimed power roles, decide to NK someone completely different? I mean, what circumstance could possibly facilitate that?
A Cop, Vig and Doc are a pretty strong set, and even with 1 of those claims as bogus, its still hard to see neither of the other two being killed. Now Xtoxm is totally confirmed, and i know im town. That leaves Oman, who im slightly more suspicious of now. Its possible that he chose to kill someone else, because killing a power role would spark some doubt about his claim.

THAT IS unless

someone hadnt read the game

.

I'm looking at Imat here, who's first post of the game is not overly-convincing.

Vote: Imat

I think we've found our last mafia member.

BM

[Battle Mage]

oh and Imat replaced Xreyox. Guys, we have confirmation.

[Battle Mage]

BM...Got anything useful?

Erm not as such. The Cop-claim was a gambit, which didnt really work, although in a sense it did...

Although i am a little confused. Why would the scum, with 3 claimed power roles, decide to NK someone completely different? I mean, what circumstance could possibly facilitate that?
A Cop, Vig and Doc are a pretty strong set, and even with 1 of those claims as bogus, its still hard to see neither of the other two being killed. Now Xtoxm is totally confirmed, and i know im town. That leaves Oman, who im slightly more suspicious of now. Its possible that he chose to kill someone else, because killing a power role would spark some doubt about his claim.

THAT IS unless

someone hadnt read the game

.

I'm looking at Imat here, who's first post of the game is not overly-convincing.

Vote: Imat

I think we've found our last mafia member.

BM

Again, I ask for a day, and you give me nothing. I thank you BM for your incredible Hunting prowess. Unfortunately you failed to notice one minor detail. Rey asked to be replaced during the night. So, even if Rey/I had a night ability, Rey had the chance to give any choice before leaving.

Get real. I actually thought that he requested replacement during the day, but if he did ask at the start of the night, do you really expect me to believe that hes selfish enough to send his night ability before quitting?
I dont think so kiddo.

So saying I'm Scum because there weren't two kills and I hadn't read yet is ridiculous, much worse than your usual ability.

Ooh, nice flaming.
Which reminds me, why has no-one else commented on the timing of Xreyox backing out? When FoO-scum died. Coincidence?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Please think about who might be cult recruiter before we end this day. It's pretty important we lynch cult recruiter today or xtoxm vigs him tonight.

Yeh i suppose, but odds are that the Cult doesnt have another recruit, and may not even get one tonight, due to the number of townies remaining, so by eliminating a mafia member, we guarantee ourselves 2 vigs and a lynch to hit the recruiter.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Yes, coincidence.

I wanna lynch BM...

dude, im waiting for an explanation. Why are you so desperate to defend obvscum?

BM

[Battle Mage]

I don't care if he is Cult leader (which I don't believe), he's right about Imat.

How?

Look at the fricking facts!!!!!!??????

[Battle Mage]

Yes, coincidence.

I wanna lynch BM...

dude, im waiting for an explanation. Why are you so desperate to defend obvscum?

BM

answer this please. Why do you maintain that he is town?

BM

[Battle Mage]

What do you mean, obvscum? How is he scum in anyway?

he HAS TO BE the last goon. The only other possibility is Oman, and theres no way im lynching a claimed Doctor whos play has been markedly protown, over an immensely scummy player. It appears you arent really watching the game, so i'm going to give you another chance. Please read objectively, because currently you are getting blindsided so badly, its pathetic.

Please can you fight for the town, rather than against it for once?????

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM keeps insisting we should lynch who he thinks is the mafia buddy, this is only good for the cult, we need to take out the CL or they will likely win tonight.

Incorrect. The Cult Recruiter wants the mafia to survive today, so you can get NKed, you idiot. -.-

[Battle Mage]

Also want to bump this post from BM about how reyo is scummy. I think it explains some stuff for people who are unclear.

Reply to Norinel:

I don't think he was breadcrumbing he is a doc. He has made it clear that he would claim something random. There is no telling what he is claiming is true or fake. I just don't see why he is doing it now. Both uneccassery and confusing. I don't know.

he has clearly breadcrumbed doc. Whether it is true or not is questionable, but you cant refute the FACTS. You just want to see a power-role lynch today.

xtoxm. I hate you for being the vig. I wish I can just do this bizzare "I want him lynched now" thing and not worry about anything. I guess if I do that, the scums or cult or whoever whatever are just going to get me lynched.

confessed concerned about the presence of a Vig-meaning that he is worried about being targetted, and is trying to butt-kiss.

BM

And this one is good too:

I'd say Oman and FoO stands equally at the moment. I'll need to read again >_<

If we mislynch again today, we'll start with a really bad position tmr.

The worst case scenario would be 1 town left and that would be xtoxm.

the above post doesnt make sense. An explanation should be forecoming. Also interesting that ur top 2 suspects are the two most protown looking players in the game...

BM

I have a question with this one though:

I'd say Oman and FoO stands equally at the moment. I'll need to read again >_<

If we mislynch again today, we'll start with a really bad position tmr.

The worst case scenario would be 1 town left and that would be xtoxm.

the above post doesnt make sense. An explanation should be forecoming. Also interesting that ur top 2 suspects are the two most protown looking players in the game...

BM

You really thought FoO was one of the most protown players?? So why did you lynch him later?

thanks for that. Yeh, i did think FoO was the 2nd most protown looking player, after Oman ofc. The sole reason i voted for him at the end of the day was to secure a lynch, because even a lynch i didnt believe in was better than a No-Lynch.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM...Got anything useful?

Erm not as such. The Cop-claim was a gambit, which didnt really work, although in a sense it did...

Although i am a little confused. Why would the scum, with 3 claimed power roles, decide to NK someone completely different? I mean, what circumstance could possibly facilitate that?
A Cop, Vig and Doc are a pretty strong set, and even with 1 of those claims as bogus, its still hard to see neither of the other two being killed. Now Xtoxm is totally confirmed, and i know im town. That leaves Oman, who im slightly more suspicious of now. Its possible that he chose to kill someone else, because killing a power role would spark some doubt about his claim.

THAT IS unless

someone hadnt read the game

.

I'm looking at Imat here, who's first post of the game is not overly-convincing.

Vote: Imat

I think we've found our last mafia member.

BM

Again, I ask for a day, and you give me nothing. I thank you BM for your incredible Hunting prowess. Unfortunately you failed to notice one minor detail. Rey asked to be replaced during the night. So, even if Rey/I had a night ability, Rey had the chance to give any choice before leaving.

Get real. I actually thought that he requested replacement during the day, but if he did ask at the start of the night, do you really expect me to believe that hes selfish enough to send his night ability before quitting?
I dont think so kiddo.

BM

Do you honestly think Mafia would be selfish enough to leave a replacement, who hadn't read, to decide the NK? Honestly, giving the choice would not be Selfish.

Thats not selfish. I know when i have a role with a night ability, its great fun deciding who to target. Part of the game rests in your hands, and you want to do something really good for your team. If you arent intending to play anymore, why would you send a nightchoice and then take the fun away from the replacing player. Ill check the timestamps if it makes you feel any better. The only other scenario is Oman-scum. What do you think of him from your reading?

But thats all a moot point because I Don't have a night ability. And with a claimed Cop, Vig, and Doc, I doubt all of them are telling the truth. I think that would be tweaked in Town's favor a bit much, but I've never played Cults.

The Cop-claim was a gambit to get me NKed. But the fact that the scum didnt know this, concerns me as to why i wasnt killed, or Oman wasnt killed.

The Vig (Xtoxm, I believe) specifically. Its all well and good that 2 groups happened to target the same person, but what were the odds of that. Here comes WIFOM: Why would Scum and Vig be interested in lynching the same player? Vig wants to oust Scum, Scum wants to kill off Power Roles. Its not often that Townies act SO Scummy that they are Vigged without a claim. In fact, BM, I hate to Meta, but why aren't you asking the Vig to get a claim from the intended target? Isn't that what you do?

Lol, loving the meta-use.
Yeh, you make a valid point. Why am i not pushing for claims before viggings?
2 reasons. Firstly, last night, the primary Vig choices were me and Oman, both of whom DID claim before we went into night.
Secondly, this game mechanic makes claiming rather a bad idea in general. It benefits the town firstly not to claim atall, and if we must claim, to claim fallaciously, with the intention of misleading scum (and hence, probably town too).
If you read the start of the game, this will be explained by Oman, and later on, me, in more detail.

So, can anyone explain to me how two groups of opposite alignments happened to target the same person?

coincidence i guess...

BM

[Battle Mage]

Which reminds me, why has no-one else commented on the timing of Xreyox backing out? When FoO-scum died. Coincidence?

BM

reyo asked to be replaced during the end of last day. Not during the night. Imat seems to be found during the night as CKD posted when replacement was found.

I don't know if it's a coincidence, but I did a meta on reyo. He's still playing in some mish-mash game, but did back out of another mini at the same time with the same excuse he gave here -- real life problems. So... yeah, it could be a coincidence.

Could be, but think about it. His buddy is about to be lynched, and i'm attacking him hard. What a perfect time to decide to bail!

Anyway, Xreyox was scummy enough alone to be lynched. This is further suggestive information against him.

BM

[Battle Mage]

And also, what Mod replaces someone during the night, when its possible that they could be NKed immediately. In normal circumstances, i expect theyd be brought in at the start of day if needed, unless ofc the role had a night choice, or CKD was desperate to avoid letting info slip.

BM

[Battle Mage]

So sorry. Please delete that person... Pretend that I said it.

lol Alts.

Oh and Dahen, i'll respond to your comments later. But, a bit of advice in the meantime- try reading the game more thoroughly. Some of the questions you've asked have already been answered. Answering them would be even more patronising than pointing this out.

BM

[Battle Mage]

its actually better to lynch the mafioso today, given the choice, due to us:

1. having a confirmed protown vig
2. having narrowed the potential recruit field far enough to make the cult a non-threat.

So even if the CR claimed now, its still pretty even money. As the CR isnt likely to claim, we should definitely lynch Imat, and buy ourselves some time.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Imat: Stop focusing on BM. I agree with some of what you are saying, but try to re-read and post thoughts on all players, please.

This should be directed at Xtoxm too apparently.

BM: Explain why you say the last goon must be Reyo/Imat or Oman? Why do you include Oman, who you think is sooo pro-town, but don't include for instance me?

Because the mafia killed GW, and yet we had 3 claimed power roles. Now Xtoxm is confirmed town, and my claim was a gambit anyway. That leaves Oman, who could concievably have chosen to kill someone different, as killing someone who had claimed a power role would shed some doubt on his claim of Doctor. Thats admittedly weak, but its a possibility. The far more likely scenario is that the kill was committed by Imat, who had not read the game, and hadnt seen the claims, and just had to kill someone in a short time-frame.

BM: Why on earth would you try to get night-killed? Who's ass do you think you would be saving?

Xtoxm's, or possibly even Oman's if we are dealing with impatient-scum. My scumdar here hasnt been awesome, and it would be nice to do something pro town victory.

Could be, but think about it. His buddy is about to be lynched, and i'm attacking him hard. What a perfect time to decide to bail!

I don't agree with this at all. If anything encourages me to continue, it's when I'm under pressure. Why do you play mafia if you don't like that part.

I'd wager here that you are in a minority.

BM

[Battle Mage]

no, because:

1. the odds of the cult recruiting correctly 3 nights in a row, with half the potential recruits already dead, is infinitely small.

2. You're going to vig either the recruiter or a recruit tonight, arent you?

BM

[Battle Mage]

As it stands i'm vigging you.

Assume

me and Oman are telling the truth.

Assume

the 1/3 chance that there are 2 town power-roles.

We know the CL was sucesful N1. He had one scum to avoid last night.

Hardly infintisimly small. I don't like these generalisation and assumptions you seem to be making at all.

I will

vote BM

again.

rofl. I'm the one making assumptions!?

There COULD be as many as 4 protown power roles, but for the sake of argument, we'll say there are 3. Now ofc, the Cult doesnt KNOW you and Oman are telling the truth, especially due to the nature of the game. With 3 power roles left in the game, plus 1 goon, the odds of a successful recruit were below 50%, and thats not taking into account the fact that a potential Doc-protection which blocks the Cult recruit anyway.

Oh and ftr, i'm pretty sure i know who the CR is. But i'm not revealing it until we've nailed the final goon.

I'm not quite sure why you unvoted in the first place Xtoxm. Its been apparent for a long time that you dont intend to do anything pro-active to help the town.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Oh and ftr, i'm pretty sure i know who the CR is. But i'm not revealing it until we've nailed the final goon.

And i'm pretty sure it's you.

And if you aren't lynched today, you are dying tonight. So you may as well contribute as best you can if you're town.

You can stop going on about me being anti-town cos i'm 100% proven town.

Anti-town = scum
BUT
Anti-town = dumbass who is town but actually helps scum more than town.

You can kill me if you want. Thats your call, and i'll have done all i can. Of course, you're gonna have trouble nailing the cult without me, but you cant say i didnt warn you.

BM

[Battle Mage]

2-shot vig?

Wow...you really fucked up with that claim. Nice attempt though.

QFAT.

[Battle Mage]

We can afford 2 non-lynches of the mafiate before he is a threat. We could well be in lylo with the cult. Lynching the mafia is only good for the cult.

As Imat is about to be lynched, i'd better fully claim.

I'm not a vig.

I'm a 2-shot vig and i've used both my shots. So I can't shoot the cult tonight. If we lynch the mafia buddy today we have almost certainly lost...

Every fibre of my being is telling me that you have a good reason to defend Imat-because he is your buddy. Of course this cannot be the case, but why would you make up a bogus claim like this in order to save someone you admit is probably scum?

Let me put it like this. There isnt a 2-shot vig in this game. And if there was, it wouldnt be you, because any half-decent 2-shot vig would either claim 1-shot so the scum are less likely to NK you, or would purposefully leave 1 shot in case we mathematically required it towards the end of the game.

Grow up.

BM

[Battle Mage]

PP, is it worth risking losing the game automatically in order to take a shot at the CR, when the far safer option of killing confirmed scum is available?
Not saying your wrong obv, but i think you're shooting at the wrong target.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Go fuck yourself.

It'll be my pleasure.
And afterwards, i'm coming back to request you are modkilled.



BM

[Battle Mage]

^

I think he's coming onto you!

On a serious note, Xtoxm its like this. I'm only saying who the CR is, if you actually do have Vig shots left. Otherwise, theres no issue, and ill reveal it tomorrow and we can lynch them. Obviously if you can assure me that you have shots left, and i will be killed tonight, i will reveal what i know.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM... can you comment on my 3 scenarios and if I am missing something. xtoxm seems to think my scenarios mean we should lynch the CR. Please help.

If we lynch the mafia goon (Imat) I want the chance to post something before we go to night.

I dont get great pleasure from playing Mathia. But, Xtoxm is missing 2 things. Firstly, his vig kills give us a greater chance of hitting the cult-something we wont have if we let the mafioso live. Secondly, his stats is WAY off. The odds of the cult winning tonight is in reality infinitely tiny. In fact, the most probable scenario is that the CR is currently alone, and may not even recruit tonight.

I can guess what it is you're going to say.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Mafia killing doesnt mean we lose, and mafia will want to kill cult anyway, cos mafia is about to lose to the cult just like town is.

You think a lone goon is gonna sacrifice his own very limited chances of beating the town, in order to stop a cult which might not even be an issue, and would be alot harder to find?
Talk about scare-mongering...

BM

[Battle Mage]

Imat, its pretty obvious what Norinel's motives are. I think we have this game wrapped up.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Excuse me if I don't agree, BM. Lynch me and the game is most certainly not wrapped up. In fact, lynch me and the game goes down the tube for the Town. But, then again, that may be good for you BM. Perhaps all this accusing of myself has given you an excellent way to prevent suspicions on yourself. You see an easy target, a replacement who happened to replace in on a night with only one kill, and you jump at the chance to misguide the Town. And this isn't the first time you've done so, either. Honestly BM, your case against me is "He replaced in and lied about not reading, he must be Scum."

You lied about not reading? wtf?

Really? Is that really all you've got going on me? Because by the way you've been talking, it sounds like you have obvScum. Which, obviously, is not the case. I'm telling you once now, lynch me and the game'll just be that much harder. Do some actual Hunting and it can only get easier. I'm NOT Scum. If the actual Scum wants to claim, that would help the game along immensly and would be greatly appreciated.

Interesting to note that while the first quote is made with the suggestion that i am scum, the second quote holds true with the assumption that i am town. Thats more than a little inconsistent.
But if what you say is true, why arent you voting for Norinel?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Ok im at the start of Page 10. Heres my LoS so far:

OMG – Highly Scummy
Elias- Fairly Scummy

Militant- Slightly Scummy
LaLaLand- Slightly Scummy (now Xtoxm)
XreyoX- Slightly scummy

Norinel- Neutral
Dahen- Neutral
BlazeRunner- Neutral

Ghostwriter- Fairly Protown
FriendofOld- Very protown
Oman- Highly protown

Anyone ranked Fairly Scummy or higher is someone I’d be willing to lynch on the spot. Anyone ranked Slightly scummy is one to keep an eye on, and could be lynchable in the future.
Anyone ranked neutral, I cant really find anything major that suggests they are either protown or anti-town.
Fairly Protown means that im leaning towards protown, but not absolutely sure.
Very Protown or above means you are virtually beyond reproach, and im nearly certain that you are town, or at the very least, not going to be lynched for a while.

I’ll continue reading over the weekend fo’ sure. In meantime,

Unvote, Vote: OMG

if I am not already.

BM

My first comment in finally getting to the read: BM, I didn't realize you said the exact same thing as me upon entering the game, "I haven't read yet." Are you denying your own claim then, or are you the only one who doesn't read every single game just in case they'll be willing to offer replacement should the need arise?

I seriously dont have a fecking clue what you are on about here. When did i EVER claim that not reading is scummy? The scummy aspect of your not reading, is that it totally ties in with the illogical scum NK of the previous night.

Second comment: Where the heck could this list have possibly come from? I got exactly the opposite reads at this point in the game, though some of that is from knowledge of their actual alignment.

Yeh my two top suspects came up town. I'm not always right. Get used to it. I'm not going to take criticism of my early reads that seriously, from a player who has replaced in at a time where the alignment of half of those players is revealed.

However, much of it isn't. Before I continue past this point of my read, I have Lorinel, Dahel, BM, and Oman on my list of suspects. FoO is not included because I know he's Scum. I'm of the opinion that BM is Cult and Lorinel is Mafia.

Now we're getting somewhere. Right, please outline your suspicions of Dahen, Norinal, Oman and myself. In other words, everyone apart from you and Xtoxm, who is relentlessly defending you, and you wouldnt want to get on the wrong side of, eh?

Oh and ftr, Norinel is virtually confirmed CR. And unless i was on some insane gambit, i cannot be mafia. Hence the Mafia is either you or Oman.

Stopping midway through page 14 as its getting late. BM and Lorinel, I'll try and get an analysis of your posts done after I've finished reading, see what you have to say for yourselves. All others on my list, same goes for you, but probably to a lesser extent seeing as how I've provided my top two, which obviously means I have more to go on with them...

Not necessarily. Its a typical scum mistake to pick 2 suspects, and mess with the facts in order to set them up. In fact, the greatest towntell is being open-minded and being willing to change your view in the face of irrefutable evidence to the contrary. God knows some of us are too arrogant for this to apply, but i won't tar you with the same brush. Lets hear your analysis of EVERYONE, upto page 14. I'm intrigued to hear why you think EVERYONE is so scummy at that point.

Also BM, before I leave for the night, there were two attempted kills last night, which I failed to notice was proven by the Mod. GW was shot and shotgunned, implying two killing groups targetting one player. So yes, there were two hits, the Mafia, whoever is left, was not "clever" enough to purposely not kill in order to get Rey/myself lynched.

Not-killing would be less consistent with you being scum, than GW being killed. You arent the most perceptive scumbag in the world, but you arent an total idiot. You know that killing someone is better than killing no-one, especially as a lone goon. You did what you could, and got unlucky that your shot hit someone pretty much irrelevant to your chances. But again, i love the way you are construing the facts in order to worm your way out of this.

And finally, still looking for that Mafia claim. Remember, the Cult has a high chance of winning this thing if we don't work together to kill them off. A claim is in both our best interests.

I'm not quite sure as to the purpose of the above post. If you were town, you'd know that asking the mafia to claim would be pretty stupid, because he would not be under pressure, and would not need to reveal himself. Equally, if you were mafia, as i am almost certain you are, you dont seriously expect the CR to fakeclaim mafia when, again he is not under pressure. The only logical motive for the above quote is to distance yourself from the accusations of you being mafia, with a clearly fabricated attempted to find them...

BM

[Battle Mage]

I know referencing ongoing games isnt allowed, but i figure referring to comments let slip in mafia discussion shouldnt be a problem.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5&start=23

Now to put this into context, Norinel is modding CultAfia- a large cult game. But he refers to 'several' cult games, and i think unless ive missed something pretty major here, he is including this one, and thus letting slip that he is the Cult Recruiter here.

I'm not quite sure what to make of Oman's claim, but i'm happy to go with a Norinel lynch as long as Imat is killed immediately afterwards.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I say we take out Norinel

tonight

, destroy the cult and then go after Imat tomorrow.

Unvote Vote Norinel

lolwut?

>.>

BM

[Battle Mage]

how come you then said we'd go after Imat 'tomorrow' when if u were referring to rl time, we would clearly not be in the day phase?

[Battle Mage]

PP, what are your thoughts on Oman atm?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Obviously we are all a bit confused. See, not to insult anyone's intelligence...You know what? No, I'm not going to reveal my plan because its sufficiently obvious to anybody who knows anything about this game. If you don't understand, too bad for you. If you're Mafia and don't understand, just go with the flow, we need to eliminate the Cult now if either side wants to win.

^Same as Imats previous post. More WIFOM with the intention of distancing himself from suspicion.

Truth be told BM, you are only on there for GSGold's active lurking, but your play as of late seems rather Cultish, so I've decided to look into you and GS more closely.

I assume you mean the fact that i said it is more important to kill

you

said mafia today, than the cult recruiter? lol
Guess what kiddo- IT IS!

Blaze and GW were also on the list, but they have since died. OMG and Elias were not, which is why I'm confused as to how the Town could blunder up so bad with them...

Omfg, shut up. lol
If you'd been reading the game, youd see that they were both as scummy as hell. Admittedly they came up town, but they were good, well-reasoned lynches at the time. I'm getting a little sick of being criticised by someone who wasn't here, and is quite clearly using the benefit of hindsight of affiliations, as opposed to actually reading the game objectively.

But at least we redeemed ourselves with FoO, thats one high point for the many lows.

distancing. Btw, seeing as i had FoO as very high on my townlist at 1 point, and i fought against his lynch, why have you not accused me of being his scumbuddy? I'll tell you why. Because YOU KNOW IT IS YOU.

Why is Norinel confirmed CR BTW?

the reasons PP pointed out, plus claiming it in MD.

Also, I don't need to construct facts to fit my needs. I'm not Mafia, no worries there. And, even if I were Mafia, I think I'd have the smarts to read a little bit of the last stuff and take out my top PR suspect, instead of some random hit.

Again, hindsight is great. Im sure you wont make that cock-up again. But the fact is, you did make it, due to lack of time, or just laziness. We've all been there at 1 time or another. Just you got well and truly caught out.

If I had had a Night choice, I would've read up BEFORE the night ended. I'm not one to throw my chances on some random decision.

Oh sorry, i didnt know you were that kid with an unlimited supply of time!
I thought you were human just like the rest of us, and had a life outside of this game. I guess i was wrong...

And BM, the "Lied about not reading" bit comes from you, not me. It sounds as if you are saying I lied about not reading. I can see, from your post 864, that this isn't the case so much, but thats what I thought at first. Thanks for clearing that up.

Its not the case atALL. If you're going to backtrack at least do it properly.

Another note: I don't know what alignment you are. Last night I believed you to be the CR, but if you have a strong case against Norinel I'm happy to listen. I'm not confirming anyone's alignment to myself, I had strong suspicions but wasn't certain of your alignment either way.

right thats a bit more like it.

And heres where conflict arises: BM agrees (I think) that I didn't read. If I didn't read, and I've never been in a Cult game, wouldn't it make sense to skim and say "That person claimed Cop/Doc, I'll target them." Instead of some random kill?

lol we dont think the kill was RANDOM. We just think you missed the power role claims, and simply went for someone you thought was active/looked protown/was a good player.

This isn't even WIFOM, I wouldn't have read that people were advocating Fake claims and therefore wouldn't have even thought much about fake claimers. I had three easy targets to choose from, why would I NK a random target? The answer is simple and not WIFOM: I wouldn't. I'm not a bad player, at least not bad enough to NK a random target instead of skimming a few pages to find not one but THREE PR claims.

Isnt hindsight a wonderful thing?

Also, saw this in preview mode, thank you PP for giving at least one suspicious behavior of Rey. I'm not sure I agree its completely Scummy to attack but not vote, but I can see your view here. Thanks for giving me at least one thing to think about in Reyo's/my defense.

There are plenty, believe me. None of which you can really defend against as such.

One last note: PR in this case is Power Role, not Post Restriction. I've always hated that they have the same acronym...

I wouldnt have believed u until i saw Rosso use that same acronym today. lol

[Battle Mage]

Hmm...Haven't posted here for a while...Still think lynching BM is the best thing to do.

I believe Oman.

My meta senses are tingling. When DON'T you think lynching me is the best thing to do??

BM

[Battle Mage]

point proven. now answer me this: Do you really think i am scum in all the games we share? Perhaps a look at my title might be a good place for you to start. If you find my play scummy in EVERY game, you should probably be thinking "maybe thats just how BM plays" and consider looking into ways you can differentiate between my play in those various games. Have you read a completed game of mine?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Why DO you believe me?

Why WOULDN't you?

I think the way you went about your claims is a town way.

Umm, changing claims, lurking...

Please assess the difference between the way i claimed and the way Oman did. Just ftr.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I don't find you scummy in mafia 75...Return of the Mafia I think or somehting.

I think you are scum here and Open whatever it is...I'll be shocked if you're not scum there.

And no I never read a completed game of yours.

probably best you dont directly refer to ongoing games. I know which you are talking about, without you name-dropping.

Maybe you should try reading a game where i am dead as scum, and comparing it to this.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'd like that as well...But, I won't, because I have no reason to quit. Even though some players are deadset on me being Mafia

despite ANY

because of no evidence to the contrary.

ROFL. Did you just claim scum?

Ah, well, I suppose Townies have to be COMPLETELY incorrect sometimes in order for the Mafia to have a chance of winning. Yeah, thats right BM, I'm saying you and your lackies are COMPLETELY incorrect, in capital letters even.

And does it look to me like Oman's post is less of a simple misunderstanding and more of a "I have to remember which people I've made up lies about" post? I, personally, got the latter, though I'm slightly biased due to the fact that the Town is COMPLETELY incorrect.

I'm sure this has already been covered, but when CR dies the Cult is left as Survivor role right?

Yes.

BM

[Battle Mage]

*sigh* i'm not sure of anything anymore. Something about Xtoxm's play feels off, and im reluctant to say he's confirmed innocent, but anything else seems kind of broken. I'm still of the opinion that Norinel is certainly the CR. Oman, you did well to last this long as mafia, and we can't risk lynching the goon today, as the Cult will almost certainly win if we do. I'm not sure about Dahen. Its possible that if Norinel is CR, Dahen is now a Cult Recruit too, which means it's ultra important that we kill Norinel today. Why i havent been recruited is totally beyond me. -.-

BM

[Battle Mage]

Personally i've been thinking Norinel is the goon since N2, but I had to shoot at who I thought was CR.

Norinel is the goon!? I dont remember this (im)possibility being mentioned before. Nor do i see how you can possibly consider it now, seeing as not only is Norinel virtually confirmed CR, but Oman is all but confirmed as the Mafia Goon.

I now think BM is said CR.

Obviously, you don't have to take my word as read, but this is the order I think i'd like for claims:

BM
dahen
Norinel
Oman

For some reason you've got me believing you Oman.

Please pay attention. Me and Oman have already claimed.

BM

[Battle Mage]

You might have been lying. You guys have had a tendacy to do that.

Both your current claims are townie, of which I

know

there is a maximum of one remaining in the game, possibly culted.

Norinel is not confirmed, you look scummy saying that, and you even imply I am somehow scum, when i'm completely cleared.

Dont be stupid. Norinel is as close to confirmed CR as you're ever likely to get. Did you not READ anything that was discussed yesterday???

And i didnt imply your were scum, but that, as always, your play shows you in a scummy light despite your role saying otherwise. 2-shot vig is also a rather uncommon role in case you havent noticed.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Yes...And I still think you a likely the CR.

2-Shot vig - Perhaps it is uncommon. Is this bothering you? What implications do you believe it has?

If i didnt have such a good meta on you, i'd say it indicated you were lying, except that logically, no Mod ive met is cruel enough to give mafia a vig-style kill method.

It just feels...wierd. :S

Anyway lets cut to the chase. Why do you think i am CR? Or perhaps more importantly, why do you think Norinel is NOT the CR?

BM

[Battle Mage]

I think you are the CR and and Norinel is the Mafiate.

I could see either of dahen and Oman as a recruit I guess...But I think a MC will help.

...I'm starting to think dahen must be power townie...

Thats not an explanation. Thats a bunch of random opinions with no reasoning. Please. Give me something of substance to comment on.

[Battle Mage]

And I don't like the way you are saying people are confirmed to be stuff when their not.

I'm getting deja vu. Didnt we have this exact debate in another game?
Oh and wait...i remember now! I was right and you were wrong. You've already given your opinion of me in that game. A meta is there for a reason.

[Battle Mage]

no Mod ive met is cruel enough to give mafia a vig-style kill method.

You think i'd kill GW twice?

And be allowed to use both a additional mafia power role vig kill along with the normal kill?

No, thats why its ridiculous. I didnt say you were scum, i said your play felt scummy. But then, whats new?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Plus, Norinel was one of the few that wanted to go after the CR yesterday rather than the mafiate.

[sarcasm]yep because his only post today doesnt atall stink of trying to get rid of the mafia goon [/sarcasm]

That's actually quite important- two power roles, one mafia, and one CR only leaves one recruitable townie left. So the cult can't be bigger than two people;

still means that lynching the last mafia could be an instant lose, but it could be worse.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Um...Why are NOT the CR?

..? Lol...

Are you serious!?

[Battle Mage]

Plus, Norinel was one of the few that wanted to go after the CR yesterday rather than the mafiate.

[sarcasm]yep because his only post today doesnt atall stink of trying to get rid of the mafia goon [/sarcasm]

That's actually quite important- two power roles, one mafia, and one CR only leaves one recruitable townie left. So the cult can't be bigger than two people;

still means that lynching the last mafia could be an instant lose, but it could be worse.

BM

No he's saying the exact opposite...

Can you not read?? 0.o

[Battle Mage]

And I don't like the way you are saying people are confirmed to be stuff when their not.

I'm getting deja vu. Didnt we have this exact debate in another game?
Oh and wait...i remember now! I was right and you were wrong. You've already given your opinion of me in that game. A meta is there for a reason.

Yes, but you

were

confirmed there.

Norinel is not confirmed as CR here.

He's as confirmed CR here as i was confirmed innocent there. Neither case is 100%, but both are about as damn near certain as you can get. There's not a great deal of point me trying to explain this to you, but as soon as you've answered my original question, i'll re-go over the case on Norinel.

BM

[Battle Mage]

no Mod ive met is cruel enough to give mafia a vig-style kill method.

You think i'd kill GW twice?

And be allowed to use both a additional mafia power role vig kill along with the normal kill?

No, thats why its ridiculous. I didnt say you were scum, i said your play felt scummy. But then, whats new?

BM

So if you always find me scummy, why do find it a problem here, and feel the need to bring it up?

Because its an annoying trait. In case you hadnt noticed, i'm not beating around the bush here. This is probably LyLo one way or another. I want everything clear.

[Battle Mage]

Um...Why are NOT the CR?

..? Lol...

Are you serious!?

Well, why aren't you? What reasons are for me not to believe you are the CR, as you asked me for Norinel?

Sorry kiddo, the burden of proof is with you i'm afraid. I've already given the case on Norinel. The fact you werent paying attention is not my problem. Now, you on the other hand have not given a single reason for me to be scum. As i've already said, this is probably LyLo, and as you clearly don't have a good grip on the game atm, its a good idea for you to iron out your suspicions.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Plus, Norinel was one of the few that wanted to go after the CR yesterday rather than the mafiate.

[sarcasm]yep because his only post today doesnt atall stink of trying to get rid of the mafia goon [/sarcasm]

That's actually quite important- two power roles, one mafia, and one CR only leaves one recruitable townie left. So the cult can't be bigger than two people;

still means that lynching the last mafia could be an instant lose, but it could be worse.

BM

No he's saying the exact opposite...

Can you not read?? 0.o

He's saying the last mafia lynch could be loss, which it could, thereby implying we shouldn't attepmt to lynch mafia today, not the opposite, which you are accusing him of implying.

Does your brain stop reading before the end of the sentence. His primary point is that whilst killing the last mafia COULD result in a loss, it could be worse-in other words, he is emphasising the fact that a mafia lynch could still be a valid play.

BM

[Battle Mage]

And I don't like the way you are saying people are confirmed to be stuff when their not.

I'm getting deja vu. Didnt we have this exact debate in another game?
Oh and wait...i remember now! I was right and you were wrong. You've already given your opinion of me in that game. A meta is there for a reason.

Yes, but you

were

confirmed there.

Norinel is not confirmed as CR here.

He's as confirmed CR here as i was confirmed innocent there. Neither case is 100%, but both are about as damn near certain as you can get. There's not a great deal of point me trying to explain this to you, but as soon as you've answered my original question, i'll re-go over the case on Norinel.

BM

In said game you had a cop result.

Norinel has not had a cult cop come out with a guilty here.

For reasons we both know, that cop result was far from conclusive. In fact, you yourself pointed this out at the time.

[Battle Mage]

Um...Why are NOT the CR?

..? Lol...

Are you serious!?

Well, why aren't you? What reasons are for me not to believe you are the CR, as you asked me for Norinel?

Sorry kiddo, the burden of proof is with you i'm afraid. I've already given the case on Norinel. The fact you werent paying attention is not my problem. Now, you on the other hand have not given a single reason for me to be scum. As i've already said, this is probably LyLo, and as you clearly don't have a good grip on the game atm, its a good idea for you to iron out your suspicions.

BM

I resent that statement. I've been very active in this game throughout, and i've made clear my current suspicions.

I'm sorry if the truth hurts, but this a serious point in the game now. You're a good player, with a good nose for scum. The fact that you arent fully paying attention is really irritating me immensely.
Being active is fine, but if you're chasing shadows and not looking at everything, all the time, you miss stuff. You've made your current suspicions clear, but until you actually give some reasoning, you aren't going to persuade anybody, and most importantly, you aren't going to see how ridiculous the assuation you are making, is.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Plus, Norinel was one of the few that wanted to go after the CR yesterday rather than the mafiate.

[sarcasm]yep because his only post today doesnt atall stink of trying to get rid of the mafia goon [/sarcasm]

That's actually quite important- two power roles, one mafia, and one CR only leaves one recruitable townie left. So the cult can't be bigger than two people;

still means that lynching the last mafia could be an instant lose, but it could be worse.

BM

No he's saying the exact opposite...

Can you not read?? 0.o

He's saying the last mafia lynch could be loss, which it could, thereby implying we shouldn't attepmt to lynch mafia today, not the opposite, which you are accusing him of implying.

Does your brain stop reading before the end of the sentence. His primary point is that whilst killing the last mafia COULD result in a loss, it could be worse-in other words, he is emphasising the fact that a mafia lynch could still be a valid play.

BM

The "could be worse" bit is refering to the maximum size of the Cult, which is capped at 2, currently, it is noting that we might not be completely screwed if we miss Cult today.

You are twisting his words, and I don't like that

.

Unfortunately, much as i like your interpretation, it doesnt make sense in context of his wording. I dont want to give an english lecture here, but the connective 'but' with reference to lynching the cult being an instant lose, prescribes that the subsequent comment puts forth the alternative point of view. This being the case, his last comment holds the view that lynching the scumbag isnt so bad, as missing the cult doesn't mean game over.

I'm not quite sure how you worked out that he said:

"The cult cant be more than 2 members, but it could be worse."

rofl

With regard to the bit in bold, please dont feed me that BS. There are few things worse than someone trying to patronise you when they are wrong, and you are right. :X

BM

[Battle Mage]

And I don't like the way you are saying people are confirmed to be stuff when their not.

I'm getting deja vu. Didnt we have this exact debate in another game?
Oh and wait...i remember now! I was right and you were wrong. You've already given your opinion of me in that game. A meta is there for a reason.

Yes, but you

were

confirmed there.

Norinel is not confirmed as CR here.

He's as confirmed CR here as i was confirmed innocent there. Neither case is 100%, but both are about as damn near certain as you can get. There's not a great deal of point me trying to explain this to you, but as soon as you've answered my original question, i'll re-go over the case on Norinel.

BM

In said game you had a cop result.

Norinel has not had a cult cop come out with a guilty here.

For reasons we both know, that cop result was far from conclusive. In fact, you yourself pointed this out at the time.

It took me a while to realise cos you never explained it for me, but you were clear in either he was telling the truth as cop and you were not mafia, or he was your buddy, who randomly claimed to bus you under absolutley no suspicion. There is no comparison between the two sitautions.

I DID explain it for you. Just as usual, you didnt pay me any heed, until you'd finished going off on one! -.-
Oh and ftr, Mafia is not the only anti-town role on MS.

[Battle Mage]

Um...Why are NOT the CR?

..? Lol...

Are you serious!?

Well, why aren't you? What reasons are for me not to believe you are the CR, as you asked me for Norinel?

Sorry kiddo, the burden of proof is with you i'm afraid. I've already given the case on Norinel. The fact you werent paying attention is not my problem. Now, you on the other hand have not given a single reason for me to be scum. As i've already said, this is probably LyLo, and as you clearly don't have a good grip on the game atm, its a good idea for you to iron out your suspicions.

BM

I resent that statement. I've been very active in this game throughout, and i've made clear my current suspicions.

I'm sorry if the truth hurts, but this a serious point in the game now. You're a good player, with a good nose for scum. The fact that you arent fully paying attention is really irritating me immensely.
Being active is fine, but if you're chasing shadows and not looking at everything, all the time, you miss stuff. You've made your current suspicions clear, but until you actually give some reasoning, you aren't going to persuade anybody, and most importantly, you aren't going to see how ridiculous the assuation you are making, is.

BM

I

AM

paying attention!!!

I'm pretty sure i've explained my reasons throughout, too.

What are you unclear on?

OMFG!!!
It's like i'm dealing with an Amnesiac. 0.o

Here's a little reminder for you:

YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN 1 SINGLE F**KING REASON WHY I WOULD BE CR

Please add this post to your favourites.

BM

[Battle Mage]

lol, loving the new sig

[Battle Mage]

Also, you amde extensive efforts yesterday to get lynched who you thought was the Mafiate, rather than the CR, when I believe the CR was the much larger threat.

Yes. Now why would i do this so openly if i WAS the CR. Wouldnt my pro-cult stance kind of stand out?

[Battle Mage]

Claim first: I'm a cop, can detect cult, innocents on Xtox, BM, and PP in that order. Given BM's behavior recently, I wouldn't be surprised if I were naive.

Wait. You're a cop or a cult cop? Kind of a significant difference there. Also, why the hell would you be naive? You dont think in a game where the Mod has clearly set up the power roles in a way which they are of threat to the scum/benefit to the town, that there would be a completely broken, useless power role?
If there was any doubt of you being scum, this claim removes it.

Vote: Norinel

BM

[Battle Mage]

Well I don't think Nurse would be a role provided in this game...It's a back-up role...I think the roles would be straight powers.

I would like to agree. Having said that, look at the claims we have so far. naive Cult Cop, Nurse, 2 shot Vig. All seem like peculiar roles for this game to feature. Much as id like to say that Oman and Norinel are just spouting total BS, the bastard moddish consistency of all the claims so far is notable.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Xtoxm...seriously, I can't see a CR doing what I did. I sure wouldn't risk it when I did (I might claim doc now as a CR, but only if I thought I was gonna get lynched).

I dont believe anyone is accusing you of being Cult.

Mafia on the other hand...eh. I probably would've killed better if i were mafia.

Gee. Having regrets? lol

For one thing, I would've killed YOU earlier, and then BM.

Yeh but, as a claimed Doc that wouldnt have looked very good now would it? I dont think theres any question of you being mafia. Of course, that means we arent going to lynch you today anyway, so i dont see why you are so anxious to fakeclaim again...

BM

[Battle Mage]

Yeah well I was playing as a vanilla townie who couldn't be recruited. Which is essentially my role. Thats why I took the risk, trying to get NKed, thats why I am happy to hunt the scum and cult interchangably.

Anyway. I need to vote either BM or Norinel. In fact, I'd actually rather lynch one, vig the other, personally. Of course, this all depends on what Dahen says he is Power role wise.

You think we have another Vig??

[Battle Mage]

This is interesting.
Oman: A nurse fake claiming doc, I'm not sure I see the point of that.
I'd like to know how your role works. Do you send in night choices in the case the doc will die or there is no doc? Will you be told when you get powers? What exactly can you do?

Bed time. You'll hear more tomorrow.

umm are you claiming Doctor then??

BM

[Battle Mage]

Now here is the thing again:
2 cults
2 pr's
1 mafia

Lynch M

: Triple loss, so no-one wants that. Cult knows who is mafia and should prevent this from happening.

Won't happen

.

this is wrong. Firstly, lynching Mafia in this case would not be an automatic loss. The Mod just said that in that scenario, the game would merely carry on to determine the winner, if the power roles had the ability to beat the cults at night. Plus how do you figure that the cult knows for certain who the mafia is?

Lynch P, Nightkill P

: Cult wins. But mafia won't do this.

Won't happen

.

this is wrong too. Mafia could well do that, on the grounds that they think there is only 1 cult left, as opposed to 2.

Lynch P, Nightkill C

: Mafia wins or everyone loses. Mafia wants this. Cult does not, so will not lynch P.

Won't happen

.

The mafia only wants this if they think that there are 2 culties left. Otherwise they will want to keep the CR alive as the final day's mislynch.

Lynch C, Nightkill C

: Town wins. But mafia won't do this.

Won't happen

.

Do all your scenarios actually assume that the mafia and cult are somehow intertwined? 0.o

Lynch C, Nightkill P

: Mafia wins or everyone loses. Only mafia wants this, so...

Won't happen

.

Why would this not happen?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Yeh but, as a claimed Doc that wouldnt have looked very good now would it?

Too easy to refute ("Oh I was WIFOMing with the scum and they called the bluff")

it would still put you under some pressure at the time. But, dude, if you seriously want to continue this ridiculous charade, please tell me why else the mafia would NK GW?

You think we have another Vig??

Goddamn I keep forgetting.

lol

Oman: A nurse fake claiming doc, I'm not sure I see the point of that.

I had "protection" from both sides. Being powerless (essentially) means I wasn't afraid of getting NKed, my death could even confirm a doctor later. I also wasn't afraid of the cult, so it was game on for me, playing fearlessly.

That was Dahen not me, who made that comment. -.-

My role PM says (unfortunatly this is from memory, because I just cleared my inbox and accientally didn't save a few role PMs) If a doctor dies, you will take their powers/will become a doctor.

If

A

Doctor dies?? you didnt think that was a tad odd? I'm not buying that.

A few things I looked for ASAP was: Did it specifically say there was a doctor in the game? No. Did it specifically say there would be only one doctor in the game? No.

I figured Dahen was the doc.

sounds like Xtoxm might be right about your gambit here...

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm not sure I need to argue with you, but here we go anyway:

Lynch M: Triple loss, so no-one wants that. Cult knows who is mafia and should prevent this from happening. Won't happen.

this is wrong. Firstly, lynching Mafia in this case would not be an automatic loss.

With the info I have, it's a guaranteed triple loss.

Ohhh. I see ya, hansel.

Lynch P, Nightkill P: Cult wins. But mafia won't do this. Won't happen.

this is wrong too. Mafia could well do that, on the grounds that they think there is only 1 cult left, as opposed to 2.

I don't think so. The mafia must target a cult, since he isn't sure. And there is no "they". It's one mafia guy left.

I disagree, but its only speculation really.

Do all your scenarios actually assume that the mafia and cult are somehow intertwined? 0.o

No, but all my scenarios are based on the fact that mafia and cult believes me and Xtoxm to be power roles.

yeh i was wondering when someone would point out that all these scenarios carry the pretty major assumption of you being protown.

BM

[Battle Mage]

To clarify: I can detect mafia or cult, and I only question my sanity because not being guaranteed sane was explicitly mentioned in my PM and BM has been behaving ridiculously.

By 'behaving ridiculously' you mean 'thinks i'm scum' right?

But if we have to assume BM's townie to have a chance at winning, I could be sane after all.

Wow you really do change with the wind eh...

BM

[Battle Mage]

hmm i'm kinda thrown off balance by Norinel coming up Mafia, as opposed to Cult. That means the main case on Oman is invalid, as it was reliant on him being scum. Whats with the quick vote Dahen? I dont even recall you properly claiming yesterday? Surely todays lynch is pretty clear cut. If you are claiming Doctor, Oman is almost certainly town, and if you arent the doctor, Oman has to be the CR. Its really that simple.

BM

[Battle Mage]

umm wth? i think if Dahen was a Doctor, he probably wouldnt have voted for the guy who he could pretty much confirm innocent.

[Battle Mage]

Im still waiting for Dahen to claim. As far as i can see, its pretty obvious what we do now. If Dahen supports Oman's claim, assuming we only have 1 cult left, and thus, a chance of winning, the scum must be Dahen or me. If Dahen does not support Oman's claim, the scum must be Oman.

So why is it you are so keen to rush the day, when theoretically, we can wrap this game up?

BM

[Battle Mage]

you think we have a Nurse but no Doctor?

[Battle Mage]

then why do you think Dahen is an RB, and Oman is not the CR?

[Battle Mage]

I said if you aren't the CR. It's conditional.

dahen should have just claimed by now.

And why have you not voted for Oman?

Because if Dahen claims Doctor, it is significantly less likely that Oman is the CR (although still possible)

BM

[Battle Mage]

And who are you planning on lynching in that scenario? Me? Yourself?

Erm, no. And tbh, im not sure. Of course, from Dahens play so far, i doubt the scenario will occur anyway.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Dahen

I'm far more inclined to believe Oman in light of this claim. Im not that bothered about my survival that im going to settle for a sub-par lynch. If i am killed today, kill Dahen tomorrow. Its pretty obvious that he was forced to claim Doc, otherwise an Oman lynch would seal his fate.

What i dont understand is why Xtoxm is buying this, and even considering voting for Oman, who he doesnt believe is scum. 0.o

BM

[Battle Mage]

...

you're an idiot.

Nuff said.

[Battle Mage]

Me not wagonning Oman if i was scum makes no sense... -.-

[Battle Mage]

...

you're an idiot.

Nuff said.

<3

dahen is as clear as me via Oman's claim.

Actually, thats a good point. Dahen cant be scum unless Oman is.

Unvote, Vote: Oman

Lets roll!

BM

[Battle Mage]

ooi, why did you want to vote second?

[Battle Mage]

yeh, thats right im the CR. Not alot of point us hanging this out any longer. I'll let Xtoxm have the pleasure of hammering me since he has been legitimately suspicious of me for ages. I reckon i did pretty well to last to this stage tbh. If the stupid townies hadnt died so quickly, i mightve had some chance of winning, but ever since Norinel came up Mafia (which i really wasnt expecting) i've been dead in the water. Not quite sure why i was even asked to submit a recruit choice last night.

Anyway, good game guys. Despite the result, it was highly enjoyable throughout.

BM

[Battle Mage]

yeh, i knew from the start the amount of townies dying was gonna be the death of me. I cant quite believe Ghostwriter was hit by Norinel. WTF was that about?

[Battle Mage]

Dahen: I'm a nurse. You're a doctor. You don't think that should me you don't lynch me?

Anyway, great play, shame BM threw in the towel like that.


Thanks CKD awesome fun setup, great play,

Lol it was an impossible scenario. They were both confirmed, and my claim was shaky at best.

BM