Mini 568 - Nubigena (Game over!)

[gorckat]

Reasons for voting Y:

1) Pressure.
2) Possibility that Near is not sane.

1) For what? Do you think he's scum?
2) Do you think ooba is scum?

I believe that it is probable that:
1) That Near is at least pro-town.
2) That Near is at best a pro-town power role.
3) That there is no reason to lynch Near or talk much about his claims at this time.
4) That Y has posted some "interesting" things and I want to see if there is more information behind it.
5) That Y has a chance of being a second Godfather based on the idea (which is a plausible one) that someone posed about "The king is dead, long live the king!"
6) That there is currently no better place for my vote, in my opinion.

There, happy now?

If 1, then 2

must

be true. Near couldn't be pro-town and

not

a power role at this point, given his claim.

3 I disagree with, as I've been pushing. 4, if Y is scum, come out and say it.6, point out the scummy things he's done and make a case.

Right now, this looks just like one of Lowell's "good enough" votes.

Mizzy, I think lynching Y is an awful idea.

Well, thanks for that opinion, but I never said I wanted to lynch him, now did I?

If you don't want to lynch him, then there are better places for your vote.

I don't intend to leave the vote on you, but I want it on the record that your actions have bothered me to the extreme and I would want you dead if it weren't for Near.

It is on record. Right there where you said it. No voting someone you don't want dead required.

unvote, vote gorkat

. No smoking gun here, but the nature of his posting seems to be strange.

I'd love elaboration.

gorckat: I got the impression the last few days he was picking pernickety little arguments with anybody who was around, and I did wonder if he might be doing this to deflect attention away from the Lowell bandwagon, which had climbed up to three votes in a pretty low-key sort of a way.

I've very much disliked Lowells casual votes all over the place. If he gets lynched in Near's place, I won't cry or anything.

The reason you sum up for gorckat is pretty much mine. He just seems to be in the thick of things... but not really.

This implies I haven't given my thoughts or taken a stand, which I believe is very much not the case.

[Mizzy]

gorckat:

1) I don't necessarily think he's scum but I really don't like his play and I'm wary of him.
2) Ooba annoys me but I don't think he's necessarily scum either.

If 1, then 2

must

be true. Near couldn't be pro-town and

not

a power role at this point, given his claim.

No, if 1 is true then 2 is

most likely

true but could be false. I've seen vanillas claim power roles before.

3 I disagree with, as I've been pushing. 4, if Y is scum, come out and say it.6, point out the scummy things he's done and make a case.

3) I don't care if you disagree with it.
4) I didn't say he's scum because I don't know yet. I want to see more things from him, as I said.
6) Follow your own advice

If you don't want to lynch him, then there are better places for your vote.

Not if I don't necessarily want anyone else lynched, either.

It is on record. Right there where you said it. No voting someone you don't want dead required.

I never denied it. I want more content from him, though, so the vote stays for now.

[gorckat]

I want more content from him, though, so the vote stays for now.

What about Imat? You haven't even mentioned him once.

[Mizzy]

I want more content from him, though, so the vote stays for now.

What about Imat? You haven't even mentioned him once.

I honestly don't have much of a read on him yet, and he's kind of been lurk-tastic, hasn't he? I should re-read him.

[Ripley]

Lowell/Incognito scum pairing - discuss.

Will post my case in the evening..

Posts like this always make me wonder if the real intention is to try and stir up a few people to start looking back through the thread for evidence to support the original poster's case. The OP waits hopefully for this evidence to be posted, then chips in cheerfully with "Yeah, you guys have pretty much covered everything..."

When the promised case does not arrive on schedule it just reinforces the theory.

ooba, here's your chance to prove my cynicism wholly unfounded by posting a well-argued case, worthy of the two trailers we've sat through while waiting for the main feature to start.

[Imat]

Ok, why is there still no pressure on Lowell. Certainly everybody should be looked at, but honestly I can't see Lowell being Town the way he's played. What Ripley just said is Lowell's play summed up: He comes with firm pairings, provides little to no evidence, then agrees with whoever comes up with evidence for this. At least, thats what I saw happen with Gorckat. And the rest of his cases aren't explained at all, he just says he has this mystical read and never comes up with the evidence to back it up. Lowell deserves votes, unless of course he cares to explain ANY of the cases he has made. I've been reading carefully, not talking much (I never do), and yet still nothing comes of the excellent case against him. Just look back at his votes, you can't honestly tell me they look Pro-Town. His Posts are just about as bad as his votes, and they are fewer and further between than mine. I'll keep my vote on Lowell, thank you, until somebody claims Scum or a better case comes up, which is unlikely on both counts.

[Lowell]

So... I'm getting blamed for a mediocre playstyle used against me?

[Incognito]

Lowell, whatever happened to your Day 1 Imat suspicions? Did they just evaporate?

[Mizzy]

Ok, why is there still no pressure on Lowell. Certainly everybody should be looked at, but honestly I can't see Lowell being Town the way he's played. What Ripley just said is Lowell's play summed up: He comes with firm pairings, provides little to no evidence, then agrees with whoever comes up with evidence for this. At least, thats what I saw happen with Gorckat. And the rest of his cases aren't explained at all, he just says he has this mystical read and never comes up with the evidence to back it up. Lowell deserves votes, unless of course he cares to explain ANY of the cases he has made. I've been reading carefully, not talking much (I never do), and yet still nothing comes of the excellent case against him. Just look back at his votes, you can't honestly tell me they look Pro-Town. His Posts are just about as bad as his votes, and they are fewer and further between than mine. I'll keep my vote on Lowell, thank you, until somebody claims Scum or a better case comes up, which is unlikely on both counts.

Imat, I'm looking back through your posts in this game and I can't seem to find a "here is my case on Lowell" post by you that includes quotes, examples, etc. Did I miss it or did you not make one?

[Lowell]

Lowell, whatever happened to your Day 1 Imat suspicions? Did they just evaporate?

Nah I've always liked Imat as scum. If I recall I brought it up and was shot down repeatedly.

If your question is: would I vote to lynch him? then the answer is yes.

[Y]

If your question is: would I vote to lynch him? then the answer is yes.

Do you have a real case behind it? Probably not.
'The answer is yes' seems to be the answer I'd expect from if I asked you to vote whatever other player playing this game.

Mizzy, I've been one of the most active player this game, and the main contributor to the Near case. You're getting more content from me all the time. If you want something specific to come up, ask for it, there's no point waiting until I accidentally talk about it. If there's nothing special you're looking for, try to use these fake accusations on some else. Thank you.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, I've been one of the most active player this game, and the main contributor to the Near case. You're getting more content from me all the time. If you want something specific to come up, ask for it, there's no point waiting until I accidentally talk about it. If there's nothing special you're looking for, try to use these fake accusations on some else. Thank you.

I'm watching your reactions, there's nothing I want to respond to specifically. Getting pissy with me isn't helping since you're not in any danger and I already said I'd move the vote. I'm just waiting for other responses from other players, though I think I know who I'll move it to.

[Incognito]

Lowell, whatever happened to your Day 1 Imat suspicions? Did they just evaporate?

Nah I've always liked Imat as scum. If I recall I brought it up and was shot down repeatedly.

If your question is: would I vote to lynch him? then the answer is yes.

No, my question was exactly what was written. It was pretty much a sarcastic comment as it's really hard to tell who you're actually suspicious of with your constant flip-flopping. And I certainly don't remember you getting shot down repeatedly. You seemed to just place your vote on Imat, and then about one or two posts later you flipped to Niv. And ever since that moment, you never seemed to mention him again.

[Imat]

Mizzy: I've made my case several times, if thats what you'e asking. If you want quotes/examples, I've somewhat left it to you to find them. I point to them, give a post number, I have faith any player truly Hunting for Scum would be motivated to find what I'm referring to, again usually given by post numbers, in order to Hunt properly. If you feel we should encourage people who don't have the strength to look backwards, I'll give specific quotes. Bear in mind this will allow for easier lurkability as they wouldn't have to actually do anything to know how to defend themselves from attacks. I prefer my method of forcing others to actually look back, to actually put some effort into this game.

If that sons hypocritical, so be it. I don't lurk on purpose, I truly don't like to discuss the minor details which make up the majority of the discussion here. I make bigger posts, usually, which give more details. Every once in awhile I'l get down and dirty with the nitpicky details, but those never seem to go anywhere. I look at the big picture, so I make fewer posts. To sum up: I don't lurk for the sake of lurking, I don't post often because I have nothing to say.

[Imat]

EBWOP: And this keyboard is so ridiculous...sons=sounds...

[ooba]

ooba, here's your chance to prove my cynicism wholly unfounded by posting a well-argued case, worthy of the two trailers we've sat through while waiting for the main feature to start.

I'm sorry i did not get around to posting this , but i had problems with my keyboard and i couldn't type much with an on screen keyboard..

I started doing a re-read to spot connections between players. The

Based on a whiff of something, I'm working on a theory of a Near/Y scumteam.

unvote, vote Y

Lowell posts this on Page 4 , after which Incog does his gambit by posting "vote for near , he's far more scummy" . Lowell does the same and votes for near. I find Incog's reaction to it a bit odd though .

Lowell, did you really fall for that? One thing that I absolutely despise is when someone tries to link two players as scum partners this early in the game. How could you claim with absolute certainty on page 4 of the thread that you are convinced of a Y/Near scum grouping? And the fact that you actually switched your vote from Y to Near at my beckoning suggests that you do actually view the both of them as equivalents. I'd like a detailed analysis as to why you believe that Y and Near are most likely scum.

@Near: You've now effectively posted a grand total of four times and in each and every one of your posts you've voted for someone different. First thephantom, then Sammich, then Imat, and finally Sammich again. Your vote hopping isn't making you look any better in my book. I currently like where my vote is.

mod: Can you please prod thephantom? He seems to have vanished in phantom-like fashion.

He berates Lowell for paring two players on Page 4 - then turns around to say that he'd like to hear a "detailed analysis" from Lowell. Looks like he's attacking Lowell here , but really is not - Plus he shifts attention to two other players at the end.

Followed by that , Lowell really lurks a lot and makes a lot of one liner posts. Incog replies to all these posts by lowell , but does not follow up with votes or full attacks. Consider the post by Y, which Lowell said gave him a whiff of a Near/Y scum team.

@ Near: We're all happy you're here, but could you add some of your own thoughts? It's your second post, and the second time you just vote some one due to some other player's reasons.

Compare that with the following posts

Lowell, do you care to comment on anything else in the game? I really hate these kinds of comments that criticize current happenings but do nothing to move us away from that kind of discussion.

Lowell again: answer Reyo's post 320, plz? kthx.

Again Lowell, you have yet to answer my recent questions. I can easily see why Y FoSed you, you don't really explain your votes too well. I don't know if that is Scum trying to mislead Town or Town trying to keep their arguments to themselves, but I'd say you need to start doing a better job of explaining your votes.

I have to agree with Imat here. Lowell, you were really pushing hard on the idea of Imat being scum and now that Imat came at you with a number of questions, you've refused to answer those questions and you seem to have conveniently switched your vote from your main target to Niv for probably the most dubious reason of them all (his flaking out of the
game). Can you elaborate on why Niv is more deserving of your vote than Imat at this point?

Post 533 :
Incog attacks Lowell here . But then also adds me to the scummy list and links both lowell and me. Distancing + Linking partner to Pro town person

Day one ends here .

To his credit, Incog never waivers and follows up with what he felt in post 533 i.e attacking me and lowell on Day 2 ..

I still think Y can be a godfather.

Near, what do you think of ooba? Why have you not suggested that ooba may have some scum role that is immune to your investigations? I thought ooba looked extremely scummy at the end of Day 1.

And a big attack on Lowell in Post 673 - which is a good post - i find nothing scummy with that . What i find scummy is that Incog in Post 680 , starts immediately shifting from Lowell ..

Anyone has any conclusions about Near's scum-play?
The only reason I'm not voting for him ATM is that he might be a really bad townie (And no one claimed a cop-ish like role).

I've actually been thinking about Near a bit more, and there's a few things I'm puzzled about. First of all, if Near really is the Gunsmith, I can understand why the scum may have opted to not choose him as the NK in that they may have feared that he could be the target of Doctor protection. The thing that puzzles me though is if we believe the opening flavor text is indicative of anything for the scum (i.e. the scum probably don't have a Godfather), then what other kinds of scum roles could there be? The only scum roles I could think of are Goons and Roleblockers. If the scum don't have a Godfather, wouldn't they likely have a Roleblocker to counteract the actions of pro-town power roles? And if that was the case, why was Near able to investigate someone last night? Unless of course the scum consists soley of Goons, which I'd find hard to believe.

The more I think about Near's claim, the less I buy it especially coupled with his Day 1 play and now his even stranger Day 2 play. I could definitely go for a Lowell or Near lynch today.

Lowell's vote in 678 is a very weak vote IMO.

So..
a) Incog actions of pointing out lowell's actions but not really following up with attacks till the end of Day 1
b) Lowell's weak OMGUS vote against Incog which seems like distancing.

make me think there is a Scum pairing between them.

[destructor]

.::] Vote Count [::.

Near (1)

- gorckat

Lowell (3)

- Incognito, Y, Imat

Y (1)

- Mizzy

gorckat (1)

- Lowell

Not Voting (3) - Near, Ripley, ooba

[Ripley]

And a big attack on Lowell in Post 673 - which is a good post - i find nothing scummy with that . What i find scummy is that Incog in Post 680 , starts immediately shifting from Lowell ..

I think it's actually pretty unlikely that a scum would launch such a sustained, decently-argued case, illustrated with quotes, against a fellow scum as Post 673. When scum vote another scum it's more commonly either to get on a growing and potentially fatal wagon in time to look good, or else it's a vote more like Lowell's votes have been - with relatively little research or argument attached. Incognito's put quite a bit of thought into this attack which started off the wagon on Lowell.

Lowell's vote in 678 is a very weak vote IMO.

Yeah, but so have they all been. There's rarely more than a sentence of explanation. Lowell seems almost to vote mechanically as if a timer's gone off: PING, time for a new vote. There's rarely any sense of his having been reassured by his previous target or given any reason to drop that suspicion. Maybe this, combined with the somewhat distant, amused tone he's taken throughout (and that has been commented on previously), is what makes his votes always seem somehow to lack conviction.

Ok, why is there still no pressure on Lowell.

Well, he's been at L-2 for a while, with people not currently voting for him expressing suspicion, which is surely a fair degree of pressure, but he hasn't behaved like someone under pressure. Which is pretty much consistent with his play generally, really.

I've made my case several times, if thats what you'e asking. If you want quotes/examples, I've somewhat left it to you to find them. I point to them, give a post number, I have faith any player truly Hunting for Scum would be motivated to find what I'm referring to, again usually given by post numbers, in order to Hunt properly. If you feel we should encourage people who don't have the strength to look backwards, I'll give specific quotes. Bear in mind this will allow for easier lurkability as they wouldn't have to actually do anything to know how to defend themselves from attacks. I prefer my method of forcing others to actually look back, to actually put some effort into this game.

I've read this several times but it still just comes across to me like an extended justification for being too lazy to back up your own arguments. Do you seriously think people, seeing no quotes or examples in your posts, are "forced to look back"? That they think "Hmm! I wonder what Imat means by that. I'll just reread the (currently 32-page) thread to see if I can work it out."?

[Lowell]

788 is a good enough reason for me to switch to Imat again (plus, I, you know, remembered he was in the game).

unvote, vote Imat

At this point I've narrowed down my search, albeit not dramatically.

I will NOT vote for any of the following:
Near- believe claim
Y- believe Near's claim
Ripley- more assertive of late, and searching other directions than the foolish but pervasive Lowell bandwagon.
Mizzy- still foolishly think MP was town

Gorckat, Incog, and ooba, consider yourselves warned.

[destructor]

Near has received his final prod.

[gorckat]

Mizzy, I've been one of the most active player this game, and the main contributor to the Near case. You're getting more content from me all the time. If you want something specific to come up, ask for it, there's no point waiting until I accidentally talk about it. If there's nothing special you're looking for, try to use these fake accusations on some else. Thank you.

I'm watching your reactions, there's nothing I want to respond to specifically. Getting pissy with me isn't helping since you're not in any danger and I already said I'd move the vote. I'm just waiting for other responses from other players, though I think I know who I'll move it to.

Mizzy- that kind of "plan" is scummy because you could never get the reaction you were 'looking for' and no one could ever say otherwise. If you know you're going to vote for someone else, then this whole non-pursuit of Y is just noise to the signal.

Lowell- Like Incognito said, you hardly mentioned Imat after voting him Day 1, and your reasons for that vote are a little sketchy, especially because you said you agreed with him on his early game behavior.

Imat- Like Ripley, not posting quotes, or at least links looks like scum justification for being lazy. Got a completed game where you did this as town?

[Mizzy]

Mizzy- that kind of "plan" is scummy because you could never get the reaction you were 'looking for' and no one could ever say otherwise. If you know you're going to vote for someone else, then this whole non-pursuit of Y is just noise to the signal.

You guys also have to remember that right now, my time to play is extremely limited so I do what I can when I can, and that seemed like the best thing at the time. I had planned on taking the vote off within a day RL time of placing it but I haven't had time to go back and do much looking.

[Lowell]

Mod

I'm heading out of town for 3 days, won't be back online until Wednesday. Just letting you know.

[Near]

Responding to a prod.
I still find gorckat scummy, but after reading Ripley's response to my question, I'd rather lynch one of the guys who've been lurking. Imat or Incognito. I dunno which one yet, I will do a re-read.

[Incognito]

@ooba:

I really don't know how to respond to your case without getting all WIFOM-y. I still think Lowell is scum, and I won't be moving my vote. If he is today's lynch and does turn up scum, then I'll try to respond to your case tomorrow if I'm still around and if people believe your case enough to place the pressure on me to do so. As of right now though, I'm trying to help town find scum, and I feel like I've done so with Lowell.

I'd rather lynch one of the guys who've been lurking. Imat or Incognito. I dunno which one yet, I will do a re-read.

When have I lurked?