Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!

[LaptopGun]

Please claim the innocent person, Cipher. All the info we have is better at this point.

It should be straight forward finding the other mafia members. Pretty much who stalled the first attempt on him no looks awfully suspicious, such as dahil. SC comming up scum also seems to clear Rigel of being mafia.

I can't believe we had masons and MC was one of them. |Though the standard point of irony of this thread seems to be carried out: I'm having an easy time finding our power roles but not the mafia or SK.

I severely doubt we have another doctor, though if we did that would almost make the game unwinable for the mafia. It would also require me not to think they are scummy, as I've found practically all of our confirmed dead power roles scummy at some point in this thread .

[iamausername]

I'll

Vote: dahill1

for now, pending possible clearance from Cipher.

Everything I said yesterday still applies, among other things. He (or one of his predecessors) wasn't on either scum lynch, but

was

on the one mislynch so far. In general, his reaction to the Spacecase wagon yesterday seems extremely scummy; he got on it early in the day, when it looked like the only option, then changed his vote to Phate (now confirmed town) once a wagon started to form there, after much fanning of the flames of suspicion on his part. Seemed like he was really trying to find someone else to lynch instead of his scumbuddy. When the Rigel/Spacecase choice is forced by deadline he picks Rigel, restating everyone else's reasons.

well i can't say anything for my predecessors, but i thought that Rigel was the better case rather than Spacecase yesterday. your reason for me being suspicious for voting Phate is weak. yes, he is now confirmed town, but how was i, or anybody else supposed to know that. you're trying to put suspicion on me for pushing for a Phate lynch. i admit i was, because i thought he was pretty scummy at the time. of course, we now know he was telling the truth.

It's not the fact that you pushed a Phate lynch that makes you suspicious, so much as the

way

you were pushing it, strongly encouraging others to find reasons to suspect him, but not actually applying your own vote until a couple of others had.

There's also a possible slip in Post 637, where he refers to LaptopGun as "confirmed townie" - Obviously, if dahill is mafia, he'd know that LTG wasn't the godfather, and it seems from his other posts around that time that he didn't realise at the time that the SK would investigate as innocent, although way later, after people point this out, he claims that he just "forgot" to mention this possibility. (Post 667)

i only said confirmed town at the time because Cipher got an innocent on him. the possibilities of GF and SK had indeed slipped my mind.

Well, not much point arguing further about whether or not this was a meaningful slip.

Then in Post 820 he attacks me because "<I> say <I'm> going to either vote for SC or Rigel (which both have a fair number of people on their wagons)" without giving reasons of my own, which a) is not true; I pretty clearly stated that I

wasn't

going to vote for Rigel and b) I was obviously doing because of the deadline, and his very next post clearly shows that he understands this necessity.

i knew you were doing it because of the deadline! the point i was trying to make was that it's hard to find reasons of your own for lynching someone when someone else already makes a compelling case against them, and you agree with it. am i not allowed to agree?

OK, this makes sense, I'd just misunderstood your intentions here. Although I think that my inability to come up with reasons of my own for a deadline-forced tiebreaker vote is a little different to you and your predecessors doing it consistently through the whole game.

---

Hadn't considered the fact that a second doc would most likely have protected Phate, so yeah, I'd say definitely give us your result, Cipher.

[The Fonz]

dahill: Just to kick the tyres a bit:

Part of your case on Phate is that he was suspected by the dead cop and the investigated innocent.

That kind of logic would suggest suspecting yourself for attacking, and being attacked by, the dead doc, yes?

[dahill1]

It's not the fact that you pushed a Phate lynch that makes you suspicious, so much as the

way

you were pushing it, strongly encouraging others to find reasons to suspect him, but not actually applying your own vote until a couple of others had.

what? i believe what happened was the opposite of that
i voted after a few others had,

then

i started pushing harder for it

dahill: Just to kick the tyres a bit:

Part of your case on Phate is that he was suspected by the dead cop and the investigated innocent.

That kind of logic would suggest suspecting yourself for attacking, and being attacked by, the dead doc, yes?

well being attacked by the dead doc is one thing. but being attacked by the

cop

is something else.

[Cipher]

I'll wait a little longer to give my result, but I'll definitely call it before nightfall.

For the record, I believe that Justin's Night 1 investigation was an innocent on vollkan. This theory largely revolves around this post, in which Justin seems to be basing his case against kabenon on the presumption that vollkan is town.

I started to do some sleuthing, but realised that there's probably no point in trying to guess who MCD's mason buddy is at this stage. There are certainly a few people that can be eliminated from the list of possibles, so that will help if someone claims that role later on.

well being attacked by the dead doc is one thing. but being attacked by the cop is something else.

There would only be a difference if the cop had an investigation result on the person he suspected. Otherwise the cop and doc are operating on the same information.

[dahill1]

well being attacked by the dead doc is one thing. but being attacked by the cop is something else.

There would only be a difference if the cop had an investigation result on the person he suspected. Otherwise the cop and doc are operating on the same information.

yeah, but we can never know what result Justin got for sure

[Cipher]

Ah k, thought you were talking about me.

[vollkan]

I'll wait a little longer to give my result, but I'll definitely call it before nightfall.

For the record, I believe that Justin's Night 1 investigation was an innocent on vollkan. This theory largely revolves around this post, in which Justin seems to be basing his case against kabenon on the presumption that vollkan is town.

Since you bring it up, I guessed precisely the same thing from that same post. Justin and I have played in a few games together and we both think of each other as rather formidable. Usually Justin analyses me with a toothcomb, which made me guess that he had gotten an innocent on me - since he didn't challenge me at all in relation to kabenon

[iamausername]

It's not the fact that you pushed a Phate lynch that makes you suspicious, so much as the

way

you were pushing it, strongly encouraging others to find reasons to suspect him, but not actually applying your own vote until a couple of others had.

what? i believe what happened was the opposite of that
i voted after a few others had,

then

i started pushing harder for it

OK, here's a few quotes from dahill1, all from before he decided to vote for Phate:

so who do you think would be more likely to be scum? spacecase or phate? or possibly both?

(To Cipher, after he revealed suspicions of Phate)

rigel, to please you i'll make a list

Spacecase: scummy, flip-flopped on the kab vote (already mentioned)

Phate: scummy, didn't know cipher claimed cop, also a "Bizarro Spacecase" as Cipher put it, changed opinion quickly on kab as well just like spacecase
(possible scumbuddies?)

so far these are the people i think are the most scummy

i didn't say its scumtell, but it does make you a little suspicious

(This is about his suspicion of Phate for "not knowing Cipher claimed cop".)

again, not under suspicion, but suspicious. don't you agree that not knowing who is cop and who he has confirmed as townies is a little sketchy. of course, he could have just missed it while reading in which case he should do a reread

(Same thing again. Also, I'd love to know just what exactly the distinction is between "under suspicion" and "suspicious".)

you're right we should focus attention where necessary, but i think right now that spacecase probably will be scum, and my only other suspicion is phate. we should lynch either phate or spacecase, and then depending on their role, look back on connections, etc.

phate is starting to look like a good vote for me, if the SC wagon is slowing down
i'm also sort of getting cold feet about SC and the two people voting for phate so far are the cop and confirmed townie

Fun facts: dahill made 14 other posts between the first quote here and his eventual Phate vote. Of these, about half dealt with explaining himself for his failure to vote Cipher when apparently believing him to have lied about being a cop, and most of the rest involved weakly going along with the Spacecase wagon, with a couple of posts decrying lurking behaviour for good measure.

[dahill1]

i still don't see how i was pushing for a phate lynch
yes, i thought he was scummy beforehand. but i wouldn't say i was pushing for his lynch

[LaptopGun]

dahill: Ahhh, you sure looked like you were pushing for a lynch of phate. I dont see that as scummy. You don't have to justify that to me, as I understood some of what you said. Thing is no you are comming off like you want to play revisionist history with your posts.

iamausername: I am not sure if I am reading what you want me to get out of on your last two quotes you pulled. It almost looks like he'd like either of those lynches. It sounds like he doesn't care who he wants dead, which is odd as I'd think the mafia would like the godfather, however inept, to stay alive as long as possible. I know the accusation has been thrown around a lot, but do you think that means hes the serial killer? Cause that's what I'm thinking right now with those two quotes.

[dahill1]

dahill: Ahhh, you sure looked like you were pushing for a lynch of phate. I dont see that as scummy. You don't have to justify that to me, as I understood some of what you said. Thing is no you are comming off like you want to play revisionist history with your posts.

it was directed mostly towards iamusername

[iamausername]

I know the accusation has been thrown around a lot, but do you think that means hes the serial killer? Cause that's what I'm thinking right now with those two quotes.

No, I specifically think he's a mafia goon. I think

you're

the SK, keep up.

Seriously, as far as his apparent willingness to lynch Spacecase goes, I think it was distancing, pure and simple. He was on the Spacecase wagon early in the day, when I don't think there was any real chance it would actually lead to a lynch. And once he'd started saying he agreed with the Spacecase wagon, he couldn't just do a sudden 180 on that, he had to make it look like he was gradually shifting to Phate, which I think is what you're seeing in those last two quotes. It's been mentioned before, but the last quote is particularly suspicious - "phate is starting to look like a good vote for me, if the SC wagon is slowing down". Why would the fact that Spacecase's wagon was slowing down make him

less

likely to be scum?

[dahill1]

Why would the fact that Spacecase's wagon was slowing down make him

less

likely to be scum?

it didn't but in my mind, either Phate or SC would have been a good lynch, so if one wagon looked like it wasn't going to happen, i joined the other one

[Shteven]

There's still a few people we need to hear from here on day 4. Specifically, I want to hear from Loudmouth Lee. He's generally an aggressive player, and pushes cases pretty hard. That said, he was pushing non-spacecase players yesterday, so I am wondering how he feels about rigel/farside now on day 4. Are they still scum?

Obviously I'm not expecting 100% accuracy from any townie, I just find it odd for him to be so strong on day 3, end up (possibly) wrong, and then not post anything here on day 4.

Dahill does look scummy, although I'm not sure I'd like to vote for him yet. On day 4, we still have ZERO posts from Oman, Rigel, and LML.

Mod: Prod Oman, Rigel, Loudmouth Lee.

I suspect that at least one of those 3 is scum. Granted, that's not a very strong claim to make since I have 3 possibilities

[iamausername]

Hey, so, after MadCrawdad's death, we know we have exactly one mason left alive. Would it be useful for him to claim at this point? We're at 7:2:1 right now, so it wouldn't be a great gambit for a scumbag to counterclaim, since that would essentially lead to their certain death with only a 50/50 chance of also getting us to make a mislynch of what is, at this point, basically a vanilla townie.

On the other hand, if our mason stays quiet for a couple of days, we could end up in a lylo situation, at which point it would be a much more useful fakeclaim for the scum, since one mislynch is all they need.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I can't really see any advantage to our mason NOT claiming at this point. Normally we want our power roles to stay quiet so they can keep using their powers, but claiming is the only 'power' a lone mason has left, and I think it would be best used as soon as possible.

Thoughts?

[The Fonz]

Nuh-uh. No mason claim in this situation.

Since we know we have precisely one, it's a suicidal fakeclaim unless it's LyLo, and there's also the possibility that the mason dies between now and then anyway.

If the mason's run up, sure, claim.

Nothing worse for scum than to see a carefully-orchestrated wagon break on a mason claim.

[iamausername]

Since we know we have precisely one, it's a suicidal fakeclaim unless it's LyLo

, and there's also the possibility that the mason dies between now and then anyway.

This is exactly why I was thinking the mason should claim today; the scum won't fakeclaim today, because it would be suicide, so if the real mason claims today, it won't be open as a fakeclaim for the scum tomorrow.

Worst case scenario, with a mislynch today, and two townies NKed tonight, we'd be down to 4:2:1 tomorrow, which looks like lylo to me. (I'm not completely certain of this; the SK makes it complicated to work out for sure.)

I certainly see the wisdom in holding off for a while, for the same reason Cipher's keeping his investigation to himself right now, but in both cases, it still looks to me like it's in our interest to have them claim at some point today.

[Shteven]

It's largely impossible to call anything but 1:1:1 lylo when you have two killing factions. It's quite possible that a 4:2:1 situation could have a cross kill and become a 4:1 town vs lone scum game. Perhaps not likely, but quite possible. It recently happened in another game I was in, but am now dead in.

As far as the mason claiming, I can see the benefit to claiming. I wouldn't hold it against them, but I also don't really think it's a critical issue. There's a lot more scum hunting I'd rather we were doing instead, although I suppose I'm waiting for some posting by those I mentioned above for the moment.

Day 4 isn't likely to end any time soon, we've just started. Let the mason claim at their own pace. Saying that it's a bad idea to fake claim the mason role may just put some mafia up to trying it, you never know!

[Shteven]

I was originally planning on waiting a bit longer, but it's 6 to lynch and so I'm comfortable voting early.

Vote: Dahill1

As username mentioned, he and his predecessors have been wrong on each of the three lynches. Wesaq was voting for Spacecase at the end of day 1, which I consider possible distancing.

I don't think that him voting for Phate should be held against him - town can easily be wrong. I would hold it against him only in the aggregate, that he's been wrong on all 3 lynches and on phate, that together may add up to something.

[dahill1]

town can easily be wrong

you just summed up my defense
i just mislynched, doesn't mean that i am scum

[Oman]

Yo shit, this game is still on. Sorry guys, getting to it now.

[vollkan]

As username mentioned, he and his predecessors have been wrong on each of the three lynches. Wesaq was voting for Spacecase at the end of day 1, which I consider possible distancing.

I wasn't aware of this fact. I don't think it is voteworthy in and of itself, but you've just given me an impetus to conduct a pbp on him. I should get round to it soon.

[-TinVision-]

Prods have been sent out and more will be on their way shortly, and replacements will be made as necessary. Expect a deadline if discussion doesn't pick up this week.

[iamausername]

Wesaq was voting for Spacecase at the end of day 1, which I consider possible distancing.

Just checked this, because I thought I'd have noticed when I was looking into dahill earlier - the only person either of dahill's predeccessors voted for in their six collective total posts was kabenon. Spacecase was voting for Wesaq at the end of day 1, not the other way round. Still possible distancing, of course.