Newbie 595 - Game Over!

[Litral]

Well, this is certainly exciting...

Official Vote Count

snafoo - 2 (q21, Muerrto)

Super Archivist - 1 (massive)

Not Voting - 4 (Litral, snafoo, shaka!!, Super Archivist)

4 to Lynch (3 at deadline, May 20).

[massive]

Super Archivist

: Sorry, you are correct. I remembered reading this:

Wait, so we're not doing the "lynch Litral and Muerrto" thing anymore?

and seeing you unvote Litral, and assumed you had been part of the party voting Muerrto as well.

q21

: Can you speak a little about why you are suspicious of snafoo, save for his inattentiveness? In your vote for him, you say he is "second on your list." -- can you talk a little about why, despite Litral being number one on your list, you never managed to vote for him?

Litral

: In regards to the excitement level: maybe you'd like to tell us who you find suspicious? It looks as if your time defending yourself is at an end.

[q21]

Super Archivist

: Sorry, you are correct. I remembered reading this:

Wait, so we're not doing the "lynch Litral and Muerrto" thing anymore?

and seeing you unvote Litral, and assumed you had been part of the party voting Muerrto as well.

q21

: Can you speak a little about why you are suspicious of snafoo, save for his inattentiveness? In your vote for him, you say he is "second on your list." -- can you talk a little about why, despite Litral being number one on your list, you never managed to vote for him?

Litral

: In regards to the excitement level: maybe you'd like to tell us who you find suspicious? It looks as if your time defending yourself is at an end.

Why I suspect snafoo? It starts with posts like this on day one where he seems pretty happy to vote anyone, especially those not there to defend themselves. This is the most notable instance of this. He spends a large portion of a fairly long post explaining why he suspects Muerrto and by extension, yourself. He says that he thinks Demonking to be town, but suggests lynching him anyway. Why do so when there are those you actively suspect - unless you don't really care who gets lynched and are voting for who seems most likely at the moment.

Its also not just the fact that he seems to be lurking on day 2... here is his only post of the day:

@starkmoon, snafoo and massive: Post please, kthxbai.

@snafoo: Note that your "pairing argument" no longer works in incriminating massive. I'd love to see another post carefully analyzing everyone's posts.

I surely will, need some time to read through the recent arguments first though.

Its also that he promised that he would post, but hasn't. It's now looking like he said this to appease us, hoping that Litral and Muerrto would blow each other fairly up quickly. That way he wouldn't have to post the promised analysis.

These are the reasons that he was second on my scum list. I voted for him hoping to get him to post so I could get a better read on him. The fact that he didn't respond at all to pressure, even when Muerrto doubled it, has made him look even more scummy to me. He's been prodded now. I wait to see if he picks it up and posts.

[Litral]

Well, this is a somewhat complete reading of mine as of now.

q21

: One thing I really liked about him is the fact that he's the one who began the Mike lynch - with his very first second post (first one = "hi"):

FoS: Mike as lurkerscum. If Vel isn't trying to replace him then he has picked up his prod, which means he's floating around and deliberately not participating. This is scummy in the extreme.

He also comes into the game offering some fresh ideas. However, I did not like his half-eagerness to jump onto a Muerrto-Litral double lynch; I realize indeed that he has explained this, but there are still a few discrepancies:

Explaining post (written to me):

I thought it was implicit from the fact that I stated that I suspect you most that I'd rather lynch you. I never said that carrying out that strategy then and there was good -

actually I think I said that lynching either of you before others contributed would be bad... yep, I did. I did say in an earlier post that if some of the other ICs arrived and agreed I'd probably go along with it.

I'd still like to know what the other ICs think of the strategy.

In answer, no I will not offer an explanation as to why I think the strategy is

good

, I don't really.

I've agreed that the confirmed innocence of one of yourself or Muerrto would point at the other.

I have never agreed that we should just lynch one of you straight away to find out. If the day progresses without anyone else looking scummy then it possibly becomes an option... but not yet.

Earlier (written in response to Muerrto):

I agree that you idea is essentially

sound

. BUT I don't want to go into day 3 with some people having hardly checked in, let alone contributed.

If massive also agrees I would probably go through with it.

Litral

: Yeah, I know, I made a serious mistake. My thoughts were like, "Scum never posting? Is that even a valid strategy?" So I was unwilling to lynch Mike at all. Turns out, sadly, it actually is a strategy for someone. You know I'm just saying this, but my mouth went agape when I saw Vel announce that Mike is actually scum.

massive

: There's nothing much to say here; I still don't like how his first day focused entirely on snafoo L-2ing Demonking which he explains thus:

My vote for snafoo was not because of "one statement" as you seem to think, but due to his willingness to follow a bandwagon with little or no reason. The statement is merely him confirming it. I consider the desire to recklessly bandwagon a scum tell -- town has much more reason to be careful where their votes are, while the Mafia don't care WHO get lynched, as long as someone does.

I think snafoo needs to respond to this before I comment though. But now massive is more than willing to look at all sides.

Muerrto

: My suspicions are listed somewhere before, but one thing I didn't mention is that he was the main force behind Mike's hammer, which counts for him being pro-town. This is also why I wanted him to explain it in his own words, not because I actually suspected him for it, but just to see if it could be extreme bussing.

snafoo

: I do not like at all his appearances and disappearances. Please post. There are two possibilities.
=> That he is actively lurking. This would mean he's scum.
=> That he is actually away.
I suppose we'll know after the prod. I particularly did not like how he disappeared near the end of Day 1 (where, as we now see, reactions matter a lot).

I also did not like his willingness to pair up scum. I'm not sure if that's a scumtell or not? It certainly seems so to me, because "pairing up" could help to immunize his buddy.

starkmoon

: Sorry to pressure you in your sickness, but please post a little. I guess getting replaced to dedicate your time to resting is a good idea too - mafiascum will still be here!

Super Archivist

: I remember reading a newbie game with the winning newbie scum starting his closing statement with "Beware the village idiot." I am thus unwilling to let someone's inexperience affect my judgment. That is why I particularly did not like

I honestly don't have much to say at this point. You're all too hardcore at post analysis for me. o_o

I would hope to see a more detailed analysis of the current game from him. I think SA is clearly showing a lack of confidence, whether due to his personality or simply being scum, and I'd like to encourage him to be more daring.

I am unwilling to say who I suspect the most with two non-posters.

[Super Archivist]

All right, I'll try to be more daring.

Lets see... I doubt q21 is scum because of what Litral said; he was the first to vote for Mike. It could be a trick, but I still doubt he'd want to kill his partner when he could have accused someone else.

Litral posts a lot. Even though it probably shouldn't, this makes me less suspicious of him. Regarding his reluctance to kill Mike, I think a better scum strategy would be to disappear, like snafoo, massive and starkmoon. He could easily make up an excuse. o_o
The weirdest thing about him was his fight with Muerrto, and the thing where he wanted us to lynch him. Still, he's low on my suspicions.

Muerrto also posts a lot, so that's cool. He was also very eager to kill Mike. The suicidal thing was weird, though. Not necessarily scum, but weird nonetheless.

Massive... I don't know too much about. He doesn't post a lot, but I don't have much of a suspicion of him at the moment. Oh yeah, and he voted for me.

Starkmoon has been totally gone. Not much else to say.

And I talked about snafoo in my last post. He is the most suspicious to me right now. However, I think if he was scum, he would want to post more after seeing how Mike's lurking strategy didn't work.

Anyway, we have plenty of time till the deadline, and I'd like to see snafoo and starkmoon come back before voting for anyone.

[massive]

q21

: So who is number one on your scummy list? Is it still Litral?

Litral

: I don't think "pairing up" is a scumtell. I think it's easy for new players, given the knowledge of the setup of newbie games (specifically that there are two mafia), to make the mistake of looking for "pairs" of scum. But it's a lot harder to link scum together than a newbie might expect, because the natural tendency of scum is to try and stay away from each other. It's ESPECIALLY hard when you have no known alignments (read: dead people) to give you factual evidence to fall back on. (ie, it's much easier to link living scum to dead scum than it is to link two living scum.) I think ultimately it's a null tell.

[Litral]

I don't think "pairing up" is a scumtell. I think it's easy for new players, given the knowledge of the setup of newbie games (specifically that there are two mafia), to make the mistake of looking for "pairs" of scum. But it's a lot harder to link scum together than a newbie might expect, because the natural tendency of scum is to try and stay away from each other. It's ESPECIALLY hard when you have no known alignments (read: dead people) to give you factual evidence to fall back on. (ie, it's much easier to link living scum to dead scum than it is to link two living scum.) I think ultimately it's a null tell.

I remember reading an argument about that, which is why I'm not too sure.

@SA: Thanks!

[q21]

@ Massive - Whether or not snafoo takes the top spot on my personal scum list depends on whether or not he picks up his prompt. And if he does pick it up, how he responds.

If he doesn't pick it up then I think Litral remains my favourite suspect, pending what a possible replacement has to say.

Should he pick it up I will probably view him as scum. I would still listen to what he has to say... but it would have to be genius for him to convince me.

[Litral]

Am I correct to say that the only argument against me is my unwillingness to hammer mikescum? If later, after the non-posters post again, I have to defend myself - most likely - I don't want to be seen strawmanning your argument. I certainly haven't seen any other arguments from you, as far as I know in the latest posts it's been "I'd really want to lynch Litral" repeated several times.

If there are other arguments let's get them sorted out when there aren't so many pages yet.

[q21]

You are correct to think that, but it was more than just a little unwillingness. I think it was Muerrto who pointed out that that line of thought requires you to be fairly incompetent... a trait which you show less and less as the game goes on. The question remains: are you scum learning to hide better, or town learning from an honest mistake. If snafoo has been watching the game then he is easily my favourite for a lynch.

Its been two days since his prod and he may well get into the replacement territory. If he does I will need to reread and take any replacement's contributions into account before reforming any kind of solid view. Before that reread though you would be on top of the scum list.

Also, from your post 253, why are you unwilling to say who you suspect the most?

[Litral]

Also, from your post 253, why are you unwilling to say who you suspect the most?

I feel that saying who I suspect the most at this point will lead to another giant argument which will allow the lurkers to hide more. Refer to my first post in this day.

[Muerrto]

Am I correct to say that the only argument against me is my unwillingness to hammer mikescum? If later, after the non-posters post again, I have to defend myself - most likely - I don't want to be seen strawmanning your argument. I certainly haven't seen any other arguments from you, as far as I know in the latest posts it's been "I'd really want to lynch Litral" repeated several times.

If there are other arguments let's get them sorted out when there aren't so many pages yet.

That's really my only argument against you despite our conflict over Snafoo yesterday and I've since decided you're not dumb enough to do that as scum but you're new enough to do it as a newbie.(don't take offense, that's a compliment)

I don't like Snafoo's absence so I'm waiting to find out if he answered his prod.

[Muerrto]

EBWOP: I also don't like SA's oppotunism. Like I said I'd probably lynch both of them before you.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Starkmoon has requested a replacement

[Muerrto]

That's good. Hope you're better soon(if you're reading this) but that'll help the game. Thanks.

[Litral]

Has snafoo picked up his prod?

If he had I would have said something

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

shaka!! replaces starkmoon. Deadline extended to May 20. If activity keeps going well I'll remove the deadline.

[Litral]

Thanks Vel! snafoo's absence noted. Thanks "shaka!!"! (the third exclamation mark is mine)

[Super Archivist]

Sweet!
But where is said "shaka!!"?

Anyway, yeah, snafoo is not looking good to me now....

[Muerrto]

Anyway, yeah, snafoo is not looking good to me now....

Naw, it's opposite. If he didn't pick up his prod then he's not lurking, he's gone. He'll be replaced soon and we'll get a new player.

[shaka!!]

Hey guys, I'm the replacement.

I'll reread this tonight, I'll give it attention first because it's deadlined.

Just a reminder I read blindly.

[Super Archivist]

Anyway, yeah, snafoo is not looking good to me now....

Naw, it's opposite. If he didn't pick up his prod then he's not lurking, he's gone. He'll be replaced soon and we'll get a new player.

Oh, you're right! Sorry snafoo...

[snafoo]

Peeps, sorry for my absence. I was about to post last week when I got a fever. Was sick last week and too low on energy to play. But I'm better now and will participate again.

[shaka!!]

Starting my reread.

All the talk of lynching noobs or IC's is a bit off. You lynch someone because you think they are scum, regardless of whether they are an Ic or not.

I don't quite follow post 51 by Snafoo, is he saying that he doesn't mind voting someone who he knows won't be able to defend themselves (whether that be lack of capability or lack of activity)?

Post 54 he says massive paraphrased him incorrectly, which is odd because I got the same line of thought as massive did.

Post 55 by Litral: What you don't realize is that scum are going to want to look townie, so they are just as likely to do something that is pro town as much as a pro town person is going to do so, that way they are pretty safe in end game.

Snafoo, in post 60, talks about how obviously scummy Demons second post was yet he doesn't actually give us reasons why. Then he claims that he wouldn't mind lynching him to find out whether he is a noob town or scum.

FoS: Snafoo.

I've said almost those exact words as scum before.

In the same post he comments on Muerrto twisting Super's words. I disagree, Super threatened a vote on the bandwagon at the end of the post, how can you be anxious

of

bandwagon when he is threatening to add to it.

Post 60 by Snafoo just seems to me like a whole lot of reaching, trying to form cases out of nothing. If I were in the game at that point in time he'd probably have my vote.

Post 86 by Litral doesn't sit with me. He's seemed to divide the game into newbies and IC's. Why would you ask whether the fact that you are a newbie has anything to do with your ability to interpret other people? I can't see anyone who even remotely implied that.

The topic of lynching IC's over newbies has come up again so I'm going to say this again 'cause I feel the need to emphasize it. Whether or not someone is an IC does not matter. You lynch someone because you think that they are scum. Whether he gave reasons behind his logic or not, it is still crap logic and shouldn't even be considered.

In post 78 Litral misinterprets the argument at hand grossly, and seemly on purpose, to prove his point.

FoS Litral.

Post 79 by Muerrto sings beautiful melodies to me.

Litral questions how Muerrto will look if Snafoo comes up as town in post 80. Well, Litral, it will reflect on him as being wrong, can you blame someone for being suspicious of a legitimately suspicious person and voting him 'till his lynch?

I'll answer yes to that, but only in certain cases. And this certainly isn't one of them.

Walnut misinterprets massives votes on Snafoo in post 82. This doesn't look like it was on purpose to me, unlike Litrals did. I can elaborate on this if you want.

In post 96 Litral mentions that there is no reason to abandon a good bandwagon for a weak one. In response I ask, who decides what is a good bandwagon and what is not a good bandwagon? And to that I answer the individual who is given the choice.

Q21 enters the game, welcome :p
He makes some good points on his entrance, first impression are always very important. It's going to be interesting to find out what else he does this game and how it changes my current opinion of him.

Post 114 by Super would be really scummy, if this were a mini or normal or large normal game. But considering it is a newbie game and he is a newbie I can greatly emphasis on his situation and understand that is very likely the truth.

Super seems very eager to jump on the bandwagon against Mike in post 118. This I can't ride off as a newbie tell,

FoS Super Archivist.

Funny his vote goes unnoticed..

Walnut reminds me of something in post 120. I generally don't like making lists of people and saying what you think about them. You have no idea how much this helps scum choose their night kills.

Post 138 by Litral - That is a fair enough statement, but if you were put in that situation you'd not pick your prod and just get replaced instead. You'd be pretty dumb to put the town at risk because you don't like your role and don't want to play but for some reason won't allow anyone to replace you.

Post 140 by Litral doesn't read good either, why are you scared to hammer someone? Are you trying to avoid the attention on day 2?

I don't like the circumstances surrounding the lynch. But was very surprised to find we hit scum! I've never actually seen scum try the lurker tactic as hard as he did, I've also never seen the town correct identify scum doing so! Good job town!

That's my reread of day 1, I am going to bed in 30 minutes and promised to do a reread in another game I'm replacing, so this is all for now.

[Litral]

@snafoo: Get well soon.

Post 86 is by snafoo. It talks about nothing you mentioned, though, maybe you're talking about another post which I cannot find?

Just for the record I have never said that someone is scummy before they are an IC/newbie. I think I've suggested "playing the IC card" once and "playing the newbie card" once as suspicious points.

In post 78 Litral misinterprets the argument at hand grossly, and seemly on purpose, to prove his point. FoS Litral.

Care to elaborate on that? What was the argument? What was my interpretation? And what point was I trying to prove?

Litral questions how Muerrto will look if Snafoo comes up as town in post 80. Well, Litral, it will reflect on him as being wrong, can you blame someone for being suspicious of a legitimately suspicious person and voting him 'till his lynch?

shaka!!, it was in response to Muerrto's "How will you look if snafoo comes up scum?" and my response, "How will you look if snafoo comes up town?" was meant to say "If you're saying I'm defending someone irrationally, I could as well say you're attacking someone irrationally." Your argument can be used on my side too; well, if snafoo turns up scom, it will reflect on my being wrong, can you blame me for casting suspicion on the motives behind what I perceived as a bad argument?

In post 96 Litral mentions that there is no reason to abandon a good bandwagon for a weak one. In response I ask, who decides what is a good bandwagon and what is not a good bandwagon? And to that I answer the individual who is given the choice.

And yet the individual must be responsible to the town. What I was saying is that putting pressure on Demonking = obviously good, because he's disappeared. Voting snafoo at that point? I wanted more clarification on that because the reasons that were given were not good to me.

Post 138 by Litral - That is a fair enough statement, but if you were put in that situation you'd not pick your prod and just get replaced instead. You'd be pretty dumb to put the town at risk because you don't like your role and don't want to play but for some reason won't allow anyone to replace you.

I think we can establish that Mike doesn't have good play. Okay, he just plain doesn't make sense, as you agree:

I've never actually seen scum try the lurker tactic as hard as he did,

I'm just suggesting a possibility in which he is not scum and yet does not post, in order to counter the notion that he is definitely obvscum.

Post 140 by Litral doesn't read good either, why are you scared to hammer someone? Are you trying to avoid the attention on day 2?

To avoid attention, I would definitely not post. Please explain how advocating not hammering will in fact avoid attention. There's a huge difference between not hammering, and suggesting that no one hammers. And you must notice I have in no way avoided attention.

I don't like the circumstances surrounding the lynch.

I think you understand why I didn't want to hammer as well.