Cultafia: Game over

[armlx]

I have said before I believe with about 90% certainty Hjallti is another, very non-cult leader role.

why?

Reading his posts, I find it pretty evident. I don't really feel like I should talk about exactly what it is for obvious reasons.

[Yosarian2]

I just want to work out where you are coming from here: Why do I "need" to be voting anybody at this point in time?

Well, there's, what, 8 or so days left before deadline, and basically no one is voting right now. That's bad. In order to really get the most info out of today, ideally we want to be able to first get everyone to commit to a vote on who they think is the scummiest person, then to have everyone come together and form a bandwagon on someone many of us agree on, while still having enough time left to completly disband that wagon and put another one together if that person has a good role-claim or a strong defense or whatever. The longer everyone goes without voting, the less info we get today, the less likely we are to make a really informed lynch today, the less likely it is we'll have time to have everyone comment on the bandwagon before lynch, the more likely we screw up and no-lynch, ect. Basically, not voting right now is bad.

Well, to begin with, my opinion of skruffs the player is that he is competent and not a VI/newbie. If I am wrong at this point, do let me know. From that,

Skruffs is a competent player, he's not a VI or a newbie, and he's a reasonably good scumhunter. That being said, and no offense intended to Skruffs, this kind of logical argument and game stratagy discussion dosn't seem to be his strong suit. If you want an example, take a look at the whole "don't fish for power roles" discussion in Open 14, http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtop ... highlight=. Granted I was scum that game, but Skruffs was town, and I think you'll get a good idea of what my meta on him is from day 1 of that game.

1) The Hjallti attack - He initially gives no reasons for the vote upon Hjallti. He then only backs this up by picking on what looks to be a "slip". What I find scummy is the way he views this slip as sufficient justification for a vote insofar as he doesn't give any indication as to why that alleged slip somehow outweighs anything else he read (remember, he had multiple claims of suspicions in his reread) and, moreover, he pays no heed to whether or not the slip is actually a slip at all. Maybe you have a different opinion on this, but my impression is that Skruffs would be a tad more nuanced if he were town - and actually give some explanation, either with the initial vote/justification or subsequently, as to why he thinks it to be a scum slip as opposed to just language difficulties.

Eh. It's a weak reason to vote someone, and I personally think Hjallti's town. It's not a totally illogical one, though, and I'd rather see someone voting for some kind of reason then not vote for anyone at all.

3) On the argument - Similar to the above. He's avoiding admitting that he is wrong, despite his position being ridiculous. Wriggling out of it rather than either proving me wrong, or admitting defeat. His concern here seems to be solely self-preservation, rather than doing the best job at scum-hunting.

Yeah, he should have dropped the argument a long time ago. Again, though, I don't think that's actually a sign of scumminess; it dosn't even look like he's attempting "self-preservation" here, since his constant defending of that weak point is more likely to get him lynched then anything else.

[curiouskarmadog]

I have said before I believe with about 90% certainty Hjallti is another, very non-cult leader role.

why?

Reading his posts, I find it pretty evident. I don't really feel like I should talk about exactly what it is for obvious reasons.

noted..

[Beep! Beep!]

I'm voting. We need to vote.

[Norinel]

SlySly replaces Quinton. Eight days to deadline. Posting activity is a bit better, voting activity isn't.

Vote Count

mnowax (1) - Beep! Beep!
vollkan (1) - Yosarian2
Skruffs (1) - springlullaby

Not voting (9): Everybody else

7 to lynch, 4 at deadline.

[SlySly]

I am here. I will give the game a read through tonight and post my thoughts.

[armlx]

Vollkan has not voted or posted a list of suspects yet, the two things I wanted from him.

Vote Vollkan

[SlySly]

I will try not to rehash what I've said over and over again...

but first, let's rehash it again in the next paragraph

Regardless of the reasoning of why I voted Hjtill, I think that some of the reactions I got were more vested in defending him then they should have been. Vollkan and Armlx, to be precise, attacked my case while at the same time,a nd I've pointed this out, offering none of hteir own.

This sounds like the play of a newb that is offended that someone disagrees with them and is going to repeat it over and over not realizing that no one cared then and cares far less now. Others in the game think you are competent, so this leads me to believe you could be stirring the confusion pot purposely.

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I think the possibility that mnowax is a CL is high.

[aioqwe]

I don't think skruffs is a newb.

[mnowax]

ahh gee thanx slysly, never knew you cared. I wish i was that smart to claim vig when i was a CL

[armlx]

I don't think skruffs is a newb.

He has over 5000 posts.... def not. I think he was just saying his defiance is very newb like in ways.

[curiouskarmadog]

Beep why are you voting Mno (felt like I have already asked this question)...he is not a Recruiter..so how is that a good vote?

[Skruffs]

The only good meta on me is that townie players who play with me for the first time always misconstrue me as scum, and scum players (especially those who have played with me before) always try to capitalize on it.

That said, I sense a growing, condensing cloud of anti-skruffs sentiment, and SL has abanbdoned posting in the game, apparently, since I Asked her to explain why she voted me out of the blue and that was a day or two ago. Now she posted in two other games since then (on tuesday) but has avoided or forgotten about this one. SL has played in games with me before; so I'm more curious about it than anything else. She's picked up on armlx vollkan and yosarian's goadings and was trying to be the first on the wagon. Anyways, paranoia aside, let's look at the rest of this..

I like how armlx is goading vollkan into voting me or else getting voted himself.

I like how vollkan and armlx both already 'knew' that hjltll was town before I even voted him, which is why they defended him so stringently in the first place, and yet neither of them can concisely explain why.

The thing is, Skruffs, when someone attacks your argument, you basically have two options. You can either defend your ARGUMENT, continue to argue that it is valid despite their objections, or you can drop or downplay your argument and move on to something else. What you did was to basically question someone else's right to question your argument, and that's not only badly logically flawed, it would be bad stratagy.

I don't agree with you there; I pointed out that someone who spends their time trying to dismiss other players arguments without offering counter arguments: Just saying "Not good enough for me", in short - was not good. He has every right to question my argument - But he wasn't questioning it. There was no curiosity there. He was not questioning it. HE WAS SAYING IT WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR HIM and dropping it. Very different. I don't like how you haven't picked up on that yet. Or, if you have, why you are trying to make the situation look different than it was.

And then you kept arguing the point endlessly, even though you were, well, pretty much wrong; everyone has the right to question anything said by anything else, or else the game of mafia dosn't really work well. Frankly the whole "argument about arguing about arguments" was so drawn out and pointless it kind of make me forget what your origional argument was in the first place, and I honeslty don't really care anymore either.

EVery time he said ! to me, I replied with B - you are not attacking him for constantly bringing up the same point, so why are you directing it solely at me? And actually, I have attempted to move past it - but then when I do, other players move it RIGHT BACK to where it was and try to keep it there. You didn't

I don't really think that's a scum tell in your case, but I don't think the argument is helpful, and you (and the town) would have been better off if you had either kept it on a relevent topic "like "is X scum", or else if you had just dropped it.

Well, I think regardless of if you think it's a scum tell in any case, that you are misconstruing the situation anyways, so iti's nto a valid tell, non tell, scum tell, town tell, or anything.

Are you saying that I should have kept it on the topic of "Is Hjltill scum?" Because I have been doing that - I used the information that my vote created, I analyzed it, and I have explained why I think it's likely that hjltilll is scum. Different case, but based on the information gathered from the 'first instance'. If I had just dropped it, then I wouldn't be scum hunting, I'd be random voting. So actually, regardless of the flak I am getting, and wether I am following yours or anyone elses' 'rules of scumhunting', I think I am doing things just the way I do things, and that's really the only way that *i* can be confident that what I am doing is 'working'.

Vollkan:

You are telling me to "admit that I am wrong". You seem to "know" that hjlktill is not a scum recruitor, and I Am glad that YOU, in whatever role you are, KNOW that to be the case. Basically the same thing goes to you as what I just said to Yosarian2. Your biggest criticism of me seems to be that I am not posting a case, when in fact, the 'case' I posted, which you immediately scorned, has generated a GOOD bit of discussion with at least half the players in the game involved. You think I am obstinant and that I "defend the undefendable" - I really don't think that voting Hjltilll for saying "this guy is not town and he's not part of my faction" was an UNDEFENDABLE vote. I think that, in the situation we were in, with the discussion that was going on; IE was mnowax stupid roleblocked town vig or recruited successful vig - was basically an exercise in WIFOM that wasn't going to result ina cult recruiter being lynched, regardless.

Hjltill said that, it was brought up, I put a vote on him and almost immediately afterwards, he replaced out of the game, fuming.
Springlullaby comes in, votes me without really explaining why, and you are still attacking me for what you see as an 'undefendable' vote.

I think you are exaggerating what you see as a point against me (that I voted without a proper case behind it) to such a degree that I will no longer be seen as credible, and if I wind up getting lynched, YOU will no longer be seen as credible. Since I think you are playing fall guy for Springlullabye - and Armlx is helping you with that by deflecting attention onto you instead of her - then even if you get lynched tomorrow (Which would be unlikely) you still have other players on your team.

See originally you said that the whole reason you were attacking me was because you didn't like the way I presented the case. But now... now you are saying that you think Hjltill is town, and that's why you are defending him. But if you really thought he was town, wouldn't the smart thing to do, would have been to defend him in the first place, instead o attacking me for not having 'a good case' on him? By attacking me directly instead of defending him, you were saying you didn't want to be publicly tied to him. But now you've turned up the heat, now you are publicly tying yourself to hjltill/ SL, by saying you thought he/she was town all along - which is not something you said originally - you actually left your OWN feeling/thoughts about hjtill/SL out of the arguments when you first started attacking me. Maybe it's because you feel SL is town that you have completely ignored that she voted me without posting reasons - which was the first reason you state as deciding to go against me in the first place. Maybe since you already 'know' she's 'town', you've already reasoned that it's OMGUS and thus not worthy of pursuing?

As for not voting: I avoided voting when I Was mafia in pirates vs ninjas because I Thought it would keep attention off of me and would prevent other scum groups from NKing me. But it drew the attention of the vig.

Look:

???? If you don't want to play the game ask replacement don't self-vote, it is completely not in favour of your own faction.

I am pretty sure mnowax is not town, and not my faction. He played bad throughout, so bad blazerunner got spoked and started to act weird itself. But this is beyond it.

Look mnowax, you committed to a game of mafia. betrayal, suspicion, unbelieve are part of the very mechanics of the game, if you are not up to being disbelieved and called a liar, then you ought not to play this kind of game. I don't think it is fun the way you are acting now. As said before I can see how you could have wrongly concluded on Yosarian2 if you indeed tried to attack him, but the way you react to the people showing your mistake could be labelled as inmature, caught or stubborn, but it is hurting town anyway.

I also don't like why your vote stays on Yosarian2, it looks like you considering it now as a randomvote, and only in the very first pages a random vote can be benificial for town, I would like to see you removing it. I don't claim here I know Yosarian2 to be town, I only don't think there is reason to suspect him more than anyone else.

Look at what hjallti is doing in this quote. HE starts it off by saying that Mnowax is not town and

not in his faction.

Okay, if you want to say that that was just him being belgian and poorly grasping the english language, that's fine. But look at the rest of the post.

He tells Mnowax that voting himself HURTS his faction; he tells him that he is committed to the game.

THen he goes on to say why he thinks Mnowax is scum. If you look at what he said and try to picture why he would intentionally say that, you get the impression, in my eyes at least (because there are some very vocal people here that don't think I can see anything) that Hjltill has some sort of investment in keeping Mnowax alive. MNOWAX's self destruction at the beginning of the day might be the result of a player who has just been recruited. IF a recruited player sacs themself at the beginning of each day, the cult leader is always safe.

However if Mnowax is doing that he's also forgetting therte might be a secondary cult -on ethat will win by numbers alone if the first cult keeps getting sacced.

Anyways, it hurts my head too much to think about but I think that Hjllti's disclaimer at hte beginning of the post, which is the only thing that has been focused on, is much more relevant if you look at how he talks to Mnowax and his opinions of mnowax through the rest of the game.

Personally, if scum wants to self destruct, I Would say Let them! Help them!

2) If you remember correctly, I pointed out that armlx was making no moves of his own to catch scum, and was merely denegrating the attempts of toehrs at doing so. HE was asking other people to provide reasonings for him to vote, adn not looking for any himself. You may say that that is evasive, bu regardless of my own involvement in the situation, it is still the truth. IF you take out what I said about him, and looked at what he has said, that statement holds true. If it was said defensively, it does not make the statement less true.


3) Please show me where I was wrong to vote hjllti.


I like how armlx says that vollkan is scummy for not voting me, and then says that it makes him look like he is testing the waters - however I have no doubt that if vollkan voted me (Adn with Yosarian's 'deadline is upon us' paranoia inducement) that he would be the third or fourth person on that wagon.


SlySly: Was that really the entire thing you had to say about me in regards to that post? A cynical comment about me rehashing something? The post was in response to another player - I introduced a lot of new content, and YES, I did repeat myself in one sentence. Why did you ignore everything else and focus on the one repitition of what was already said?

Again, this sounds the same as Yosarian from earlier on in this post, saying I'm not letting go of something but at the same time ignoring everything else I've said that ISN'T about that thing.

Who's the ones not letting go?


And lastly:
A person who is playing an alt can have 100 posts and come across as very mature, another player can put in 5000 posts and not change a single bit in their playstyle. Does being experienced mean being a better scum hunter? Armlx, you were playing on this site a year and a half (almost) before me: but I have 1500 more posts than you in games. Does that mean you are a better scum hunter or does that mean I am a better scum hunter?
The answer is: It doesn't mean jack shit.

If it does mean jack shit, then at what point between 3500 and 5000 posts does someone begin to actually scum hunt for cult recruiters? You've been hiding behind "We must find cult leaders" the entire game, and now that we are close to deadline you seem to have completely abandoned that tactic.

[armlx]

I just realized I'm a fucking idiot. My whole Hjallti read was completely invalid.

I had Hjallti on vig based on his whole double vig post and penguin's FOS of mno for claiming that blaze had killed the person she presumably did. However, I forgot about the entire events of last night. Right now this theory is only valid if TSS is SK, Blaze actually blocked him (or someone else random) last night, mno killed blaze and was culted, and mno is now lying out his ass about targetting yos b/c he thought it would be a valid avenue to pursue aka really improbable scenario.

After considering this, I've come to realize there's probably a decent chance of SK Hjallti, if only based on the penguin thing, but I'm not even that sure.

Skruffs: I have stated I think this whole argument I really doubted its was a scum tell on your part.

Also, newb implies a new player who isn't familiar with how to play. While having 5k post != good necessarily (twito and ryan have over 3k...), it means you definitely aren't a newbie.

[SlySly]

Let the rehashing continue...

I don't agree with you there; I pointed out that someone who spends their time trying to dismiss other players arguments without offering counter arguments

Seems like I have heard this in this game already about 400 times.

Skruffs, word count does not = relevance. Post count does not = contribution.

High word count, especially when starting EVERY post off with the same unimportant argument just increases the odds that no one is going to put forth the effort into reading what you have to say. Take your posts out of this game, and this game is 8 pages shorter without significant loss of relevant content.

I find myself wanting to vote you out just so this game will be a much smoother read and easier for everyone to follow.

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I wish i was that smart to claim vig when i was a CL

Your claims reeks of a lie to me.

You said you knew 100% about Blaze and that was a lie. You said you were going to target Blaze during the night, even going as far as telling him to have a good night during twilight, and that was a lie.

FoS:mnowax

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Everyone seems to be missing the possibility that the Cult Leader(s) could have killed during the night instead of recruiting.

[the silent speaker]

No, we are not. If a cult leader killed, someone would be found with a brain omelet. All we've seen so far are lead sandwiches.

Mnowax is playing like an idiot, but I don't think he's the right lynch until we have some more people identified. We'll never be able to identify him based solely on himself, because if he doesn't know what he's doing himself, how can

we

infer it?

[SlySly]

No, we are not. If a cult leader killed, someone would be found with a brain omelet. All we've seen so far are lead sandwiches.

I understand what you are saying. If 2 cults tried to recruit the same person, would that person not show up as shot, of course assuming that the person in question is not immune to the first NK attempt on them?

•If multiple Cults recruit the same player at the same time, it acts as a nightkill attempt on that player.

[Yosarian2]

No, we are not. If a cult leader killed, someone would be found with a brain omelet. All we've seen so far are lead sandwiches.

TSS, I think that fried brains thing is only if a person dies because two different cults tried to recruit him at once, they get their brain fried from the two mind control satalites or something like that. I don't think we know what it'd look like if a cult leader actually killed instead of recruiting.

[SlySly]

I don't think we know what it'd look like if a cult leader actually killed instead of recruiting.

I think we would know if it was just a single shot kill from a CL.

Cults kill with orbital lasers, and their victims are listed as "burnt to a crisp".

[Yosarian2]

Oh, huh, my mistake.

I wouldn't really expect the cult or cults to be trying to kill right now anyway.

[SlySly]

I wouldn't really expect the cult or cults to be trying to kill right now anyway.

I agree with you.

That is why I brought this up. I didn't want the game missing a possibility just because it wouldn't be expected now.

[armlx]

Oh, huh, my mistake.

I wouldn't really expect the cult or cults to be trying to kill right now anyway.

Once the cults start killing, the town has already lost anyways as it means they think they are in a dominant enough position that their only threats are the other scum.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, huh, my mistake.

I wouldn't really expect the cult or cults to be trying to kill right now anyway.

Once the cults start killing, the town has already lost anyways as it means they think they are in a dominant enough position that their only threats are the other scum.

Well, not necessarally. Heck, if one cult leader thought he knew today who the other cult leader was, I wouldn't be surprised if he killed him tonight; assuming there are more then one cult, I think the cults are ALREADY bigger threats to each other then the town is to either cult.

[armlx]

The issue is the cults have 1 shot kill immunity, meaning if they were right they would be using 2 recruits to do so, and the other cult would probably still win by basically being a giant mason group. And if the person was actually the SK, even bigger blow outs.

[SlySly]

there are no docs in this game

Can you please explain what you meant by this statement?

i tried to kill him and only Cult leaders or the SK have one-kill immunity.

If I recall Blaze's last statement during twilight, he said he was going to block you. If you are a vig, which I don't believe, why do you think your attack would have even reached Yos when Blaze was blocking you? Blaze is confirmed as being the RB and not culted so we know his roleblocking skill was still available to him.

Don't kill me tonight I am still the blocker...but I will have to block you