Cultafia: Game over

[armlx]

I'll explain the set up one: This game is semi-open, all possible roles are in one of Norinel's post on the first page. The end result is there is no protection from night kills save a lucky RB or the 1 shot immunity SK's and cult leaders have. There was a doctor that protected from cult recruits, but vikingfan died yesterday.

[SlySly]

The issue is the cults have 1 shot kill immunity

The recruits don't. I assume you meant CL but I just wanted to clarify.

I'll explain the set up one:

Thx for the attempted help, but I was really wanting mnowax's explanation.

[armlx]

Meh, sorry, its an issue thats been discussed a couple times before, I thought you just wanted an answer.

And by cults, I did mean recruiters.

[springlullaby]

Skruff, explain how my vote can be considered to be 'out of the blue' or even 'sudden' first because I think you are not making any kind of sense there.


And then please consider commenting on the reasons I voted you.

Someone else insinuated I Was defending my honor, not me. My post was reflecting on that suggestion and seeing if it held any truth.

Mmh, I didn't say that you said you were 'defending your honor', using these words verbatim, I was referring to this:

I do'nt know if that was in this game though, because in basically all of my games I have simultaneously had people use a basic "Skruffs makes no sense" default argument against anything I say - I even changed my location to reflect that, a week or two. I do'nt know why, because I *am* earnestly doing my best in all of my games, and yet it seems that word is getting around that a quick and easy way to discredit me is just to say I don't make sense.

Sounds like a defense of your honor to me. Tell me, what else did you intent to achieve with a rant like that? Exactly how is it game relevant anyway?

And you are pinging my scumdar again with your last vague meta arguments.

Do you really think that my having not answered you quickly enough despite having made two posts in other games since is really indicative of anyhting? Fyi, being still busy atm, I'm prioritizing. And if you had cared to check thoroughly you would have also noticed that there are other games I'm in that I haven't even had time to read yet since being very busy last week.

Surely, if you were genuine, you would have wanted to be more thorough in any meta analysis before bringing it up for the purpose of implying that another player is deliberately avoiding to answer your questions and therefore being scummy?

Then again, seeing how, contrarily to what you are saying, I have never played a game with you as town before - actually I don't think I ever played in any game with you beside this one period (not that I think the 'the only good meta on me blabla' stuff is any kind of good argument to begin with; btw, noting here the irony of the fact that I was agreeing with you D1) - I'm thinking you are very likely not genuine at all.


Btw, I totally endorse my predecessor's 'not my faction' comment. English is not my first language either but if I'm not mistaken, in english, ' X is not town, and not my faction' means pretty much the same as 'X is not town, and therefore not my faction' depending on the context. I don't see how you can not know that because my english is not even that good, which is kinda scummy in itself. The rest of your read on that post is lost on me.

Have other comments not on Skruffs but I'm seeing in the preview window that new posts have been made. Will read those first.

[armlx]

Not town and not my faction implies that being not town and your faction is a possibility.

:teach:

That said the slip was pretty irrel and not worth the attention it got.

[NabakovNabakov]

Seems like I have heard this in this game already about 400 times.

Skruffs, word count does not = relevance. Post count does not = contribution.

High word count, especially when starting EVERY post off with the same unimportant argument just increases the odds that no one is going to put forth the effort into reading what you have to say. Take your posts out of this game, and this game is 8 pages shorter without significant loss of relevant content.

I find myself wanting to vote you out just so this game will be a much smoother read and easier for everyone to follow.

Did you actually read Skruffs' post?

Do you think Skruffs is scum?

Do you think his lengthy/abundant posts are formulated to confuse and stall the town?

What do you think about the parts armlx and Vollkan have played in this?

[SlySly]

Did you actually read Skruffs' post?

Yes, I read the entire game. Replacing into a game is different than being a part of it from the beginning. I'm sure from time to time I will have to dig back through to effectively contribute to certain discussions.

Do you think Skruffs is scum?

I think it is possible. Do I have a 100% for sure scum read on him? No.

Do you think his lengthy/abundant posts are formulated to confuse and stall the town?

I think it is possible.

What do you think about the parts armlx and Vollkan have played in this?

Is there something specific about their play you would like me to comment on?

[mnowax]

I just realized I'm a fucking idiot. My whole Hjallti read was completely invalid.

I had Hjallti on vig based on his whole double vig post and penguin's FOS of mno for claiming that blaze had killed the person she presumably did. However, I forgot about the entire events of last night. Right now this theory is only valid if TSS is SK, Blaze actually blocked him (or someone else random) last night, mno killed blaze and was culted, and mno is now lying out his ass about targetting yos b/c he thought it would be a valid avenue to pursue aka really improbable scenario.

After considering this, I've come to realize there's probably a decent chance of SK Hjallti, if only based on the penguin thing, but I'm not even that sure.

.

i was under the understanding that you thought he was a mason! thats what i read him as.

there are no docs in this game

Can you please explain what you meant by this statement?

i tried to kill him and only Cult leaders or the SK have one-kill immunity.

If I recall Blaze's last statement during twilight, he said he was going to block you. If you are a vig, which I don't believe, why do you think your attack would have even reached Yos when Blaze was blocking you? Blaze is confirmed as being the RB and not culted so we know his roleblocking skill was still available to him.

Don't kill me tonight I am still the blocker...but I will have to block you

Firstly, yes there are ZERO doctors in this game. Check the setup. The only thing they can stop is a recruitment, not a killing.

I didn't believe that he actually was going to block me. I never was going to shoot him in the first place. I went after yos on the off chance that he didn't block me. not much more to say about that.

[armlx]

That actually makes a lot more sense then I assumed it would.

[Yosarian2]

Note, however, that you still haven't given a halfway logical reason for why you targeted ME, specifically. Frankly, that's still most of the reason I think you're likely to be a cult recruit who wanted to get me lynched, Mnowax; the only reason you claimed to have was that you say you thought I was a "lurker", but I was actually the most active person in the game on day 1.

I guess it's possible you really are a vig who tried to kill me for no freaking reason at all last night, but, well, argghh. I'd honestly rather think you're lying scum then to think that you'd really play that randomally as town.

[SlySly]

I didn't believe that he actually was going to block me. I never was going to shoot him in the first place. I went after yos on the off chance that he didn't block me. not much more to say about that.

He said he was going to block you, why should we believe he didn't?

What makes you think that your attack on Yos failed as opposed to you being blocked by the confirmed RB who said he was going to block you?

[vollkan]

Well, there's, what, 8 or so days left before deadline, and basically no one is voting right now. That's bad. In order to really get the most info out of today, ideally we want to be able to first get everyone to commit to a vote on who they think is the scummiest person, then to have everyone come together and form a bandwagon on someone many of us agree on, while still having enough time left to completly disband that wagon and put another one together if that person has a good role-claim or a strong defense or whatever. The longer everyone goes without voting, the less info we get today, the less likely we are to make a really informed lynch today, the less likely it is we'll have time to have everyone comment on the bandwagon before lynch, the more likely we screw up and no-lynch, ect. Basically, not voting right now is bad.

Good. I figured you had such an explanation, but being told I "need" to do something without anything else puts me on alert.

Skruffs is a competent player, he's not a VI or a newbie, and he's a reasonably good scumhunter. That being said, and no offense intended to Skruffs, this kind of logical argument and game stratagy discussion dosn't seem to be his strong suit. If you want an example, take a look at the whole "don't fish for power roles" discussion in Open 14, http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtop ... highlight=. Granted I was scum that game, but Skruffs was town, and I think you'll get a good idea of what my meta on him is from day 1 of that game.

Hmm...Thanks for raising this. There's definitely the same sort of attitude of personal infallibility being shown. That's obviously very important and I will need to factor it in.

Eh. It's a weak reason to vote someone, and I personally think Hjallti's town. It's not a totally illogical one, though, and I'd rather see someone voting for some kind of reason then not vote for anyone at all.

Well, any reason is good, because otherwise things cannot progress, but I don't think that really serves to mitigate the crumminess of bad reasons.

Yeah, he should have dropped the argument a long time ago. Again, though, I don't think that's actually a sign of scumminess; it dosn't even look like he's attempting "self-preservation" here, since his constant defending of that weak point is more likely to get him lynched then anything else.

Well, the effect is not one of self-preservation, but his focus is evidently upon not accepting any errancy. That said, the reference you sent me really affects the scumminess of this - since it may well just be obstinate-Skruffs than Skruffs-scum trying to push a poor argument to protect himself.

Vollkan has not voted or posted a list of suspects yet, the two things I wanted from him.

Vote Vollkan

Usually, when I make a scumdar, I do a full review, etc. but I don't have the time to make something like that right now. I can post a list, with some justification, but you need to appreciate that this is not based on a full reread.

armlx

- His opinions are unclear, and the only reason he seems to have given for his attacks against me is absence of vote/list of suspicions.

55

curiouskarmadog

- I can't comment on CKD with any definitiveness, but I haven't seen anything that has actually set off my suspicions seriously from him. Doesn't seem to be engaging other players very much, which somewhat indicates he may be avoiding debate.

55

Skruffs (Replacing Greggo)

- Was my main suspect, but Yos's meta reference has thrown a spanner into that to a large degree. I'll read further on once I finish this post, since I can see that skruffs has posted, but for now

65

mnowax

- His play has been absolutely insane to the point of ridiculousness. He has claimed, though, so he is not a lynching candidate. He may well be a CR, obviously.

aioqwe (Replacing malthusis)

- Mal leaped onto blaze for suspicion of him being SK, but I think that is probably more due to newbiness than anything. Kiwi has not posted enough for me to get a substantial indication.

50

springlullaby II (Replacing Hjallti (Replacing mypenguinkat))

- I really don't think the "slip" was scummy at all, since Hjallti is not a native English speaker. Anybody that suspects him for that slip has to explain why they think the language barrier is somehow irrelevant. A lot of his content seems to be just setup discusison

50

Beep! Beep! (Replacing Occult)

- I really did not like Occult's "who knows we may hit cult leader", and the implicit support of CR lynching which followed, though it may just be Skruffs-esque eccentricity. Does anybody have a definite meta on Occult?

65

SlySly (Replacing Quinton. (Replacing stark))

No read

50%

the silent speaker

- I pointed out a number of things about TSS that I did not like in my initial analysis. He did make a good argument against Occult, however.

60

Yosarian2

- He's making sense and hasn't set off my scumdar yet. I'm hesitant to label anybody pro-town, but he is the most pro-town to me at this point in time, so I will splurge and go

45

NabakovNabakov (Replacing ZaneWasHere)

Nothing has set me off thus far, but NN is someone I don't think I have a clear opinion of.

50[/b[

[Norinel]

Vote Count

vollkan (2) - Yosarian2, armlx
mnowax (1) - Beep! Beep!
Skruffs (1) - springlullaby

Not voting (8): Everybody else

7 to lynch, 4 at deadline.

[Skruffs]

Let the rehashing continue...

I don't agree with you there; I pointed out that someone who spends their time trying to dismiss other players arguments without offering counter arguments

Seems like I have heard this in this game already about 400 times.

Skruffs, word count does not = relevance. Post count does not = contribution.

High word count, especially when starting EVERY post off with the same unimportant argument just increases the odds that no one is going to put forth the effort into reading what you have to say. Take your posts out of this game, and this game is 8 pages shorter without significant loss of relevant content.

I find myself wanting to vote you out just so this game will be a much smoother read and easier for everyone to follow.

And yet again you ignore everything except the parts that are talking abou the parts you apparently hate so much to read. Do you have nothing else to comment on anything I've said that is NOT rehashing? No? Okay.

Fos

.

Everyone seems to be missing the possibility that the Cult Leader(s) could have killed during the night instead of recruiting.

If you think that the cult leaders are not going to be trying to kill right now, and you knew that the CLs kill by frying - and yet there was no indication that there had been any fryings - what was the point of bringing this up in the first place?

Fos: again

. The only reason I fos was because of your reaction to hearing there were no doctors in this game : I think you were trying to set up a doctor claim.

SL:
What I said in that paragraph was the truth: I don't see how saying the ttruth about current game situations (Something that could have been verified by reading other games) is worthy of a vote. I don't see how it makes me scummy in this game. You did no meta analysis at all but rather blindly voted me because I Was defending myself in a way that you partook as a meta. THat's crazy, too, because the same thing (gasp) happened in other games. Then you say I am fos-worthy, or pinging, because I am not metaing you enough to be thorough - Which is hilarious because you are fossing me in the first place for metaing myself in a way you don't want to bother confirming!!!

Fos

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Why is this game less of a priority than those other two?


As for hte english thing: It's redundant, there are two statements made and presumably each one is distinctive and unique or else they wouldn't be made. I think Hjllti was distancing himself from a cult-recruit that he didn't recruit.

NabNab

:
What leads you to think I am the kind of player who makes long winded and confusing posts in an attempt to confuse and stall the town, wether I Am town or as scum? You should remember from Big Love mafia (where I Was scum) that I play scum very different as town. Usually as mafia I :teach: town how to catch me, and my scum buddies. I quasi bus my teammates a lot, without actually voting them.


Sidenote:
I do'nt think Mnowax targetted Blazerunner. Even if he did, I think blaze blocked him. I think that whoever DID shoot blazerunner, whether they are town or sk, was an idiot. If they are an SK and not TSS, then they killed DGB too, which is another stupid choice (Because DGB is a liability to a cult, so she's not likely to be recruited).

Vote : Vollkan

While I don't think Vollkan is a Cult Rcruitor, if he turns up as a cultist, it puts a lot of weight behind my theory regarding him and SL. Considering how some players are trying to coerce other players into voting me, I'm also going to vote him because it makes it more likely he gets lynched than me, at this point.

[armlx]

Hmm, interestingly enough my Hjallti theory works if mno is straight up lying and TSS is the SK. N1 TSS is blocked, Vig A policy kills DGB. N2 vig kills vikingfan who had garnered suspicion and TSS kills Blaze who could stop his kills again.

[armlx]

Wow, that makes so much more sense then lynching someone whose most likely role is recruit.

Unvote, Vote mnowax

[Yosarian2]

Well, I still think Mnowax is likely to be a recruit. If absolutly necessary, though, I'll vote him at deadline, since lynching a recruit is better then a no-lynch.

[mnowax]

im not a recruit.

however it it means that i must die to prove my truth, then go for it . like i said before i used up my vigging powers for at least 2 nights, and by then i will almost certainly be a recruit, dead or we will have won the game. id rather die a noble death and show you the truth, then stay alive a hope that i dont get recruited.

[Skruffs]

Right now, there are potentially 6 out of 12 players who are cult.
Tomorrow, it could be as much as 8 out of 10.

I don't think a mass claim is in order, but messing around with claimed power roles isn't going to reveal a cult recruiter. Mnowax is either going to be shot, burned, recruited, etc, but unless we think he's a recruitor he's not worth going after.

I think armlx is acting very peculiarly, especially in the last two or so days.

[NabakovNabakov]

NabNab:
What leads you to think I am the kind of player who makes long winded and confusing posts in an attempt to confuse and stall the town, wether I Am town or as scum? You should remember from Big Love mafia (where I Was scum) that I play scum very different as town. Usually as mafia I :teach: town how to catch me, and my scum buddies. I quasi bus my teammates a lot, without actually voting them.

I don't. I wanted to see if SlySly did. Unfortunately, I got fewer straight answers out of him than Ollie North.

@SlySly:

Why are you dodging my questions?

What prevents you from elaborating on the possibilities of various situations rather than stating them?

Why do I need to tell you what to say about armlx and Vollkan? They've said things, you've thought about the things they've said. Let's hear it.

Vote: SlySly

Will I get real answers now?

[SlySly]

I don't. I wanted to see if SlySly did. Unfortunately, I got fewer straight answers out of him than Ollie North.

Ask a vague question, get a vague answer.

Why are you dodging my questions?

I am not dodging your questions. I answered your direct questions directly. I asked for specifics about your vague question.

What prevents you from elaborating on the possibilities of various situations rather than stating them?

I have just joined the game and am in the process of gathering information. I will clearly state my suspicions as they develop.

Why do I need to tell you what to say about armlx and Vollkan? They've said things, you've thought about the things they've said. Let's hear it.

I am not going to do a book report for you over the play of armlx and Vollkan thus far in the game. Taking my posts into consideration, it is obvious that their play was not the first thing that jumped out at me that I felt the need to address. That doesn't mean I am opinionless about them, but If you want to know my thoughts about something specific about their play, feel free to ask. I will do my best to give you the best possible answer.

Will I get real answers now?

I have started my commenting on the things that jumped out of me. I will get to the less obvious stuff when I am done with the task at hand.

But since you are here, do you feel any remorse for starting the wagon on SL-I, a confirmed townie?

[NabakovNabakov]

I am not dodging your questions. I answered your direct questions directly. I asked for specifics about your vague question.

"It is possible" is

not

a direct answer. Not to go grammar Nazi, but your answers actually indicate the that it is possible you think those things, not that those things are possible, but even if the questions were phrased "Is Skruffs scum?" it would still be a vague and non-committal answer.

Why

are those things possible? The questions were asking what you thought; let's hear it. You've claimed to have read the game, so I really don't see what your excuse is.

I am not going to do a book report for you over the play of armlx and Vollkan thus far in the game.

Why not? What's wrong with information, with sharing your opinion?

Taking my posts into consideration, it is obvious that their play was not the first thing that jumped out at me that I felt the need to address.

Taking your posts into consideration, it's obvious that their play is something you need to address. You've spent a couple of posts berating Skruffs but have said nothing about the other players in the discussion. Why?

That doesn't mean I am opinionless about them, but If you want to know my thoughts about something specific about their play, feel free to ask. I will do my best to give you the best possible answer.

Your best possible answer will not be prompted. Do not misunderstand me, this is an interrogation, and what topics you choose to focus on is about as important as what you say about them. Do you have to analyze their play from every possible perspective? Of course not, choose one or two. I'm interested in what those will be.

But since you are here, do you feel any remorse for starting the wagon on SL-I, a confirmed townie?

Not in the slightest. She was lurking, and I called her on it. She re-entered with some pretty questionable plays, and the town called her on it. Townies are not infallible, and in this case, both SL and I got it wrong.

Nice try changing the subject though.

[SlySly]

"It is possible" is

not

a direct answer. Not to go grammar Nazi, but your answers actually indicate the that it is possible you think those things, not that those things are possible, but even if the questions were phrased "Is Skruffs scum?" it would still be a vague and non-committal answer.

You asked if I thought Skruffs was scum and I said I thought it is possible. Sorry if that isn't good enough for you. I am fairly new at this game and his rehashing the same thing over and over sounded just like me in my first game. As several in this game pointed out, Skruffs is not a newb, that is why I think it is possible he is scum purposely causing confusion and not just a stupid newb.

You've claimed to have read the game, so I really don't see what your excuse is.

I have read the game and there is no excuse. You are just trying to create the facade that there is.

Why not? What's wrong with information, with sharing your opinion?

Nothing wrong with info. I will get to everyone, there is no need for you to try to hurry me along.

Taking your posts into consideration, it's obvious that their play is something you need to address. You've spent a couple of posts berating Skruffs but have said nothing about the other players in the discussion. Why?

There are 11 people, besides myself, alive in this game. I will get to each and everyone of them before all is said and done. I have not been a part of this game for long and I don't need your approval to approach my investigations in the order that I feel is most important.

Nice try changing the subject though.

Nice try of changing my investigation path.

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Mnowax, I see you chose to ignore my questions and not even attempt to answer them. I'll take note of that.

Can you please tell me why you were so eager to hammer SL-I?

[SlySly]

DOUBLE POST MANIA

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sorry, trying to keep up and get caught up...
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what was the point of bringing this up in the first place?

I was trying to get any and all possibilities clear for my own understanding of the game at hand. After the discussion, I see clearly now that since no one has been "burnt to a crisp", that no CL's have killed yet.

The only reason I fos was because of your reaction to hearing there were no doctors in this game : I think you were trying to set up a doctor claim.

I was going to point out that vikingfan was an alarmist and specified in the setup as (doc). After receiving the two great explanations of this from armlx and mnowax, I didn't feel the need to rehash it as their understanding of the topic was clear in their responses.

Right now, there are potentially 6 out of 12 players who are cult.
Tomorrow, it could be as much as 8 out of 10.

Slow down with the town discouragement. With your numbers, I assume you are referring to there being 2 cults. If that is the case, sheer numbers alone put a fairly small cap on cult sizes and don't forget about the term Steadfast, some players will never be recruits. If we can lynch a CL today, things will look much better than the numbers you have projected.

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im not a recruit.

I think recruiter is probably more accurate...

however it it means that i must die to prove my truth, then go for it.

Appeal to emotion.

like i said before i used up my vigging powers for at least 2 nights,

nice built in alibi attempt, while also trying to justify your past and future non-kills as a claimed vig.

id rather die a noble death and show you the truth, then stay alive a hope that i dont get recruited.

How very noble, and scummy of you!

To me, this sounds like another appeal to emotion posing as a helpless townie hoping to avoid votes.

vote: mnowax

[mnowax]

hasnt been the first time that ive voted for myself. dont make me do it again!

i am not a cult recruiter.

i am a vig. i have not been culted.

i just realized something. there is a good chance that the cults are recruiting each other members on different nights, correct? if thats the case we may have a lot less recruits then we think.