Skruffs wrote:
The only good meta on me is that townie players who play with me for the first time always misconstrue me as scum, and scum players (especially those who have played with me before) always try to capitalize on it.
First, IMO, scum should be expected to try to capitalize on bad play 100% of the time.
I have fallen victim to townies mistaking me as scum several times. Feel free to meta me, especially the newbie games I played in. Some of the things you are saying here are like you are quoting me from my newb games (493 and 496). Like it or not, it is your play style and until you fix it, you'll put yourself in the same situations perpetually.
Don't mistake this as me trying to help you improve your game. I am working to improve my own game and am not at a level in my play where I feel my advice is worth much more than the font it was typed with.
I am merely showing the evidence of your newb-like behaviour and pointing in the direction of where I have made the exact same bad play newbie mistakes for all who feel so inclined to illustrate the reasoning behind what I have said about you in this game.
With that established, the question becomes one of a few versions...
1. Is this a veteran player acting newb-like purposely for an unknown reason? a) reason pro-town? b) reason scummy?
2. Is this a veteran VI with extreme fluffing talent?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skruffs wrote:
Yosarian2 wrote:
The thing is, Skruffs, when someone attacks your argument, you basically have two options.
You can either defend your ARGUMENT, continue to argue that it is valid despite their objections, or you can drop or downplay your argument and move on to something else.
What you did was to basically question someone else's right to question your argument, and that's not only badly logically flawed, it would be bad stratagy.
I don't agree with you there;
I agree with Yos on this. In fact, I think he gave you some good advice if you are capable of hearing it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skruffs wrote:
I pointed out that someone who spends their time trying to dismiss other players arguments without offering counter arguments: Just saying "Not good enough for me", in short - was not good.
Someone not giving a counter argument when dismissing another argument is not always a scumtell.
Scenario example:
"The the sky is usually pink."
"No, it's not."
It would not always be required to add, "It is usually blue."
Your similar argument here would be "Well, he didn't add in the fact that the sky is usually blue when disputing my pink claim, so that is a scumtell."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skruffs wrote:
Yosarian2 wrote:
And then
you kept arguing the point endlessly
,
even though you were, well, pretty much wrong
; everyone has the right to question anything said by anything else, or else the game of mafia dosn't really work well. Frankly the whole "argument about arguing about arguments" was
so drawn out and pointless it kind of make me forget what your origional argument was in the first place
, and
I honeslty don't really care anymore either.
EVery time he said ! to me, I replied with B - you are not attacking him for constantly bringing up the same point, so why are you directing it solely at me? And actually, I have attempted to move past it - but then when I do, other players move it RIGHT BACK to where it was and try to keep it there. You didn't
Pay attention to the bolded parts of what Yos quoted. Like it or not and whether you are right or not, it really doesn't matter in this game sometimes. When you run things into the ground, especially with repeated hard to read walls of words, you are going to...
1. force town to think you are a)scum, or b) an obnoxious VI that is going to drive the point home so far that no one cares and just wants to vote you out to be rid of your posts
2. have scum try to exploit you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skruffs wrote:
Yosarian2 wrote:
I don't really think that's a scum tell in your case
, but
I don't think the argument is helpful
, and you (and the town) would have been better off if you had either kept it on a relevent topic "like "is X scum", or else if you had just dropped it.
Well, I think regardless of if you think it's a scum tell in any case, that you are misconstruing the situation anyways, so iti's nto a valid tell, non tell, scum tell, town tell, or anything.
Are you saying that I should have kept it on the topic of "Is Hjltill scum?" Because I have been doing that - I used the information that my vote created, I analyzed it, and I have explained why I think it's likely that hjltilll is scum. Different case, but based on the information gathered from the 'first instance'. If I had just dropped it, then I wouldn't be scum hunting, I'd be random voting. So actually, regardless of the flak I am getting, and wether I am following yours or anyone elses' 'rules of scumhunting', I think I am doing things just the way I do things, and that's really the only way that *i* can be confident that what I am doing is 'working'.
Yos with some more good advice. More fluff from you. Half of what you say is just thoughts in your head that should stay there as they don't help the game.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skruffs wrote:
Vollkan:
You are telling me to "admit that I am wrong". You seem to "know" that hjlktill is not a scum recruitor, and I Am glad that YOU, in whatever role you are, KNOW that to be the case. Basically the same thing goes to you as what I just said to Yosarian2. Your biggest criticism of me seems to be that I am not posting a case, when in fact, the 'case' I posted, which you immediately scorned, has generated a GOOD bit of discussion with at least half the players in the game involved. You think I am obstinant and that I "defend the undefendable" - I really don't think that voting Hjltilll for saying "this guy is not town and he's not part of my faction" was an UNDEFENDABLE vote. I think that, in the situation we were in, with the discussion that was going on; IE was mnowax stupid roleblocked town vig or recruited successful vig - was basically an exercise in WIFOM that wasn't going to result ina cult recruiter being lynched, regardless.
Hjltill said that, it was brought up, I put a vote on him and almost immediately afterwards, he replaced out of the game, fuming.
Springlullaby comes in, votes me without really explaining why, and you are still attacking me for what you see as an 'undefendable' vote.
I think you are exaggerating what you see as a point against me (that I voted without a proper case behind it) to such a degree that
I will no longer be seen as credible
, and
if I wind up getting lynched, YOU will no longer be seen as credible
. Since I think you are playing fall guy for Springlullabye - and Armlx is helping you with that by deflecting attention onto you instead of her - then even if you get lynched tomorrow (Which would be unlikely) you still have other players on your team.
See originally you said that the whole reason you were attacking me was because you didn't like the way I presented the case. But now... now you are saying that you think Hjltill is town, and that's why you are defending him. But if you really thought he was town, wouldn't the smart thing to do, would have been to defend him in the first place, instead o attacking me for not having 'a good case' on him? By attacking me directly instead of defending him, you were saying you didn't want to be publicly tied to him. But now you've turned up the heat, now you are publicly tying yourself to hjltill/ SL, by saying you thought he/she was town all along - which is not something you said originally - you actually left your OWN feeling/thoughts about hjtill/SL out of the arguments when you first started attacking me. Maybe it's because you feel SL is town that you have completely ignored that she voted me without posting reasons - which was the first reason you state as deciding to go against me in the first place. Maybe since you already 'know' she's 'town', you've already reasoned that it's OMGUS and thus not worthy of pursuing?
Wow, is the first word that comes to mind. Did you ever see the movie Seven where they show the SK's notebooks and writings? That is what this style of posting always reminds me of.
As far as someone's credibility being questioned if you are lynched and proven to be town, I think you are in denial if you don't realize that any point you have made is buried in so much fluff that no one will ever go back and find it.
Preview and delete the unnecessary fluff. Can you see how brutally painful it is to just respond to one of your post in full so you don't accused me of ignoring most of it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skruffs wrote:
As for not voting: I avoided voting when I Was mafia in pirates vs ninjas because I Thought it would keep attention off of me and would prevent other scum groups from NKing me. But it drew the attention of the vig.
So, are you saying you have been avoiding voting in this game because you are a CL and hoping to not draw the attention of the vig?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skruffs wrote:
Look:
Hjallti wrote:???? If you don't want to play the game ask replacement don't self-vote, it is completely not in favour of your own faction.
I am pretty sure mnowax is not town, and not my faction. He played bad throughout, so bad blazerunner got spoked and started to act weird itself. But this is beyond it.
Look mnowax, you committed to a game of mafia. betrayal, suspicion, unbelieve are part of the very mechanics of the game, if you are not up to being disbelieved and called a liar, then you ought not to play this kind of game. I don't think it is fun the way you are acting now. As said before I can see how you could have wrongly concluded on Yosarian2 if you indeed tried to attack him, but the way you react to the people showing your mistake could be labelled as inmature, caught or stubborn, but it is hurting town anyway.
I also don't like why your vote stays on Yosarian2, it looks like you considering it now as a randomvote, and only in the very first pages a random vote can be benificial for town, I would like to see you removing it. I don't claim here I know Yosarian2 to be town, I only don't think there is reason to suspect him more than anyone else.
Look at what hjallti is doing in this quote. HE starts it off by saying that Mnowax is not town and
not in his faction.
Okay, if you want to say that that was just him being belgian and poorly grasping the english language, that's fine. But look at the rest of the post.
He tells Mnowax that voting himself HURTS his faction; he tells him that he is committed to the game.
THen he goes on to say why he thinks Mnowax is scum.
If you look at what he said and try to picture why he would intentionally say that, you get the impression, in my eyes at least
(because there are some very vocal people here that don't think I can see anything)
that Hjltill has some sort of investment in keeping Mnowax alive. MNOWAX's self destruction at the beginning of the day might be the result of a player who has just been recruited. IF a recruited player sacs themself at the beginning of each day, the cult leader is always safe.
However if Mnowax is doing that he's also forgetting therte might be a secondary cult -on ethat will win by numbers alone if the first cult keeps getting sacced.
Anyways, it hurts my head too much to think about but
I think that Hjllti's disclaimer at hte beginning of the post, which is the only thing that has been focused on, is much more relevant if you look at how he talks to Mnowax and his opinions of mnowax through the rest of the game.
Personally, if scum wants to self destruct, I Would say Let them! Help them!
I bolded the fluff in this section for you. Read this section again, not including the bolded part, and tell me what would be lost had you just left it out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skruffs wrote:
2) If you remember correctly,
I pointed out that armlx was making no moves of his own to catch scum
, and
was merely denegrating the attempts of toehrs at doing so
.
HE was asking other people to provide reasonings for him to vote, adn not looking for any himself.
You may say that that is evasive, bu regardless of my own involvement in the situation, it is still the truth.
IF you take out what I said about him
, and
looked at what he has said
, that statement holds true. If it was said defensively, it does not make the statement less true.
3) Please show me where I was wrong to vote hjllti.
I like how armlx says that vollkan is scummy for not voting me
, and
then says that it makes him look like he is testing the waters
- however I have no doubt that if vollkan voted me (Adn with Yosarian's 'deadline is upon us' paranoia inducement) that he would be the third or fourth person on that wagon.
The things I have bolded here are the things I would expect to be quoted. Call me a dummy, but I think it is probably wise to usually bring your evidence with you to court.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skruffs wrote:
SlySly: Was that really the entire thing you had to say about me in regards to that post? A cynical comment about me rehashing something?
Yes, had I more to say, I would've said it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skruffs wrote:
The post was in response to another player - I introduced a lot of new content, and YES, I did repeat myself in one sentence.
Why did you ignore everything else and focus on the one repitition of what was already said?
Because from out of everything you said, I felt the most important thing to point out was the fluff factor and newb-like play. Those 2 elements can be very harmful to town and very helpful to scum.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skruffs wrote:
Again, this sounds the same as Yosarian from earlier on in this post, saying I'm not letting go of something but at the same time ignoring everything else I've said that ISN'T about that thing.
Who's the ones not letting go?
And lastly:
A person who is playing an alt can have 100 posts and come across as very mature, another player can put in 5000 posts and not change a single bit in their playstyle. Does being experienced mean being a better scum hunter? Armlx, you were playing on this site a year and a half (almost) before me: but I have 1500 more posts than you in games. Does that mean you are a better scum hunter or does that mean I am a better scum hunter?
The answer is: It doesn't mean jack shit.
If it does mean jack shit, then at what point between 3500 and 5000 posts does someone begin to actually scum hunt for cult recruiters? You've been hiding behind "We must find cult leaders" the entire game, and now that we are close to deadline you seem to have completely abandoned that tactic.
Sorry, got excited the end was near so jumped all the way there to close post as bed time has passed. Fluff can be pro-scum and anti-town for many reasons and should be avoided when possible, IMO.
As far as skipping parts of your posts in my responses, I have responded in full now to one of your post. I think it is brutally obvious why I am not going to each and every time you puke out a post. Lots of times, the thoughts that are in my head come across as arrogant, sarcastic and shallow when I include them in my posts. Most of the time, I try not to include those thoughts in my posts.
