Mini 584: Sudo_Nym Presents- Over!

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

But you are so very, very, wrong. It might be worth pressuring for. It certainly is not worth lynching for.

[ZeekLTK]

How am I "very, very, wrong"? Is there a chance that he could be town? I suppose... although I don't see how a pro-town player would come into the game on post #113 and ignore 90% of what has happened so far and just put a player on L-2 for very weak reasoning. That doesn't seem pro-town to me. Even if you don't know the role of the player he put on L-2 (which I do, and that makes his vote even worse), then you still have to admit it looked suspicious as hell.

But there is no way you can tell me you have a "town read" off of him, which seems to be what you are suggesting by telling me I'm "very, very, wrong" by assuming that he is scum.

[TDC]

[..] and basically get a free pass out of Nano's scummy action.

And we don't want people to get a free pass, do we?

[FaerieLord]

I suppose... although I don't see how a pro-town player would come into the game on post #113 and ignore 90% of what has happened so far and just put a player on L-2 for very weak reasoning. That doesn't seem pro-town to me.

You know what doesn't seem very protown to me? Someone trying to lynch a lurker. You know what else? Someone making OMGUS cases. You know what else? Somebody who thinks everyone has to assume he is town

Those are the things that don't seem protown to me

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

But there is no way you can tell me you have a "town read" off of him, which seems to be what you are suggesting by telling me I'm "very, very, wrong" by assuming that he is scum.

I have no read on him, in the same way I don't really have any read on you. I'm not into lynching people I don't have a read on. Your assumption, while it has a chance of being correct, is inherently flawed, because the evidence is so very, very, thin.

[ZeekLTK]

I suppose... although I don't see how a pro-town player would come into the game on post #113 and ignore 90% of what has happened so far and just put a player on L-2 for very weak reasoning. That doesn't seem pro-town to me.

You know what doesn't seem very protown to me? Someone trying to lynch a lurker. You know what else? Someone making OMGUS cases. You know what else? Somebody who thinks everyone has to assume he is town

Those are the things that don't seem protown to me

I love how you completely ignore Nano's actions to push your agenda (attacking me).

You are scum, so I doubt this conversation will be very constructive (because you have no intention of seeing the game for the good of the town, or negatively when it comes to the actions of your scumbuddies), but I'll still ask you this: So you are saying that making basically your first post in the game on post #113 to put a player on L-2 for extremely weak reasoning, while failing to address (or even acknowledge) anything else that has happened in the game, is good play or pro-town?

Nano's vote was such an obvious mafia move... and Faerie's insistence on defending him by trying to deflect the attention on me (combined with all the other scummy stuff he's done) is pretty obvious that the two are working together (against the town).

[Lowell]

I'd be interesting in pursuing the nano case. But until we have a replacement, zeek's pushing of it looks a little strange.

[FaerieLord]

I suppose... although I don't see how a pro-town player would come into the game on post #113 and ignore 90% of what has happened so far and just put a player on L-2 for very weak reasoning. That doesn't seem pro-town to me.

You know what doesn't seem very protown to me? Someone trying to lynch a lurker. You know what else? Someone making OMGUS cases. You know what else? Somebody who thinks everyone has to assume he is town

Those are the things that don't seem protown to me

I love how you completely ignore Nano's actions to push your agenda (attacking me).

You are scum, so I doubt this conversation will be very constructive (because you have no intention of seeing the game for the good of the town, or negatively when it comes to the actions of your scumbuddies), but I'll still ask you this: So you are saying that making basically your first post in the game on post #113 to put a player on L-2 for extremely weak reasoning, while failing to address (or even acknowledge) anything else that has happened in the game, is good play or pro-town?

Nano's vote was such an obvious mafia move... and Faerie's insistence on defending him by trying to deflect the attention on me (combined with all the other scummy stuff he's done) is pretty obvious that the two are working together (against the town).

You are such a bloody idiot. I'm not going to even bother posting for you.

[Thestatusquo]

Hi.

[Sudo_Nym]

Finally, a vote count (didn't realize it had been so long...)

icemanE 2

-

TheSweatpantsNinja, CaptainCake

TheStatusQuo 2-

Johoohno, icemanE

ZeekLTK 2-

Sir Tornado, FaerieLord

Greasy Spot 1-

Lowell

Lowell 1-

Greasy Spot

Sir Tornado 1-

ZeekLTK

With 12 alive, 7 votes will lynch.

Also, in happy news, Thestatusquo will be taking over for mafiaSSK, while Sir Tornado will be filling in for Nanosauromo. For simplicities sake, they will be inheriting the votes of their predecessors (both in votes cast and votes for). Thanks to the both of them.

[Thestatusquo]

K, so I'm on page 6, and what the hell is WRONG with you people...

SPNinja and TDC in particular.

Please answer me this, folks, what do you think is the purpose of bandwagoning? What is the end goal?

If you think the point of bandwagoning someone to l-2 and l-1 is to just sit there and not extract a claim out of them, then you are fucking crazy.

Mafia 101...When someone is bandwagoned, and a large portion of town has shown a willingness to lynch them, they claim, if they don't, or you do not like their claim, then you lynch them. That is how mafia works. Without the threat of a lynch, there's literally no incentive for a player to do ANYTHING once they have reached 5-6 votes, and thus it loses all purpose.

This is especially telling from TSPN from me, because his stated position seems to be that early pressure and bandwagons are what is good day one, which makes me very hesitant to believe that there is not an alterior reason that he suddenly gets all squeemish when the bandwagon is on Zeek as opposed to Cake. This seems like a rather strong connection between the players to me, and if either of them comes up scum, I will be wanting to pressure the shit out of the other one.

On to the Zeek case:

I think it's a good case thusfar, and certainly one that I would have been willing to run him up to l-1 or 2 on day one to get a claim with. I might even have been willing to lynch on it. Keep in mind that I am only on page six right now, and something might happen to change my mind, but at this point I see myself joining that bandwagon, if it still exists at the end of my read.

The key point (and this is particularly damning against TSPN as well) is that he doesn't ever actually scumhunt. The "attack" on cake isnt scummy in that he attacks cake early (I do similar things all the time) but rather that he never attempts to derive information from it. He is not attempting to push cake so that he will find out cakes, or anyone elses alignment, but rather just for the hell of it. He then completely stops attempting to find scum and attacks everyone who even remotely finds him suspicious. These are not pro town actions AT ALL.

[Thestatusquo]

Up to page 13 and the Zeek bandwagon has completely disintegrated for no logical reason that I can see...

If anything, he's getting more scummy to me. His posts look not so much like he's looking for scum, but that he's testing the waters of each person he attacks in turn, to see if he can get other players to bite. When they do not, he quickly moves on to someone else. This is called opportunism at it's worst. If Zeek isn't scum, he may STILL be our best lynch today, because he is a completely useless townie. He has done nothing today but things which would benefit the scum.

Faerielord is the most townie by far. Take this declaration with a grain of salt, though, as I may be saying this just because I happen to agree with a lot of what he is saying, and this wouldn't be the first time that I have been blinded by scum thinking along the same wavelength as me. That being said, the way he backed off the Zeek case was particularly pro townish to me, as he was one of the first to do so, and did so with no real pressure admitting that he was wrong. I just don't see very much motivation for a scum player to do that, and a lot of reason for town to.

On to the role fishing stuff...This is patently ridiculous...Do you even know what role fishing is? Role fishing is attempting to trick a player into making some sort of statement which reveals their role. Asking for a claim is not role fishing, it is merely asking for a claim (by the by he was completely correct in asking for a claim when he did.) The difference is the accountability. Role fishing is scummy because they are trying to get a player to reveal their role without it coming back to them. Asking for a role claim is directly accountable, and should be almost automatic at alost lynch pressure.

A far more scummy role fish, and for exactly the reasons people have been brushing it off, was icemans "power role" comments. Players defending it saying "Well, as long as no one does something stupid..." are exactly why this is a scummy role fish, because if someone somehow slipped up and claimed doctor, for instance, you'd all be "awwww shucks"ing iceman and not lynching him for it because it was someone else who fucked up. FL is absolutely right when he says "Don't speculate on power roles. Period" because by looking at the reactions of players to that statement, you can often determine who is and is not a power role. And by doing it as town, you make it easier for scum to get away with it, which is seriously bad news.

Now, I do not think iceman is scum, because if you combine that with some of the other posts he has made, specifically the one where he asks what a claim is, I have a solid noobie town read on him, but this is a very much "future reference" type argument for all of you.

[Thestatusquo]

@ The replacement for MafiaSSK

: I am interested in some fresh perspective analysis on the game and the players. (And preferably some comment on your predecessor's posts and opinions).

Well, I believe I have already done the first part, with significant analysis of Zeek (my prefered lynch target) TSPN (Player links and hypocracy) FL (townie vibes) and iceman (Rolefishing and Newbie town) as well as the concept of role fishing and role claiming in terms of this games theory...

As for SSK, I think we can all just assume he was an idiot and move on...Thats not really alignment based, I mean, look at some of the things he did:

1) Accused TSPN of quicklynching a player IN ANOTHER GAME in order to make it look like he had an excuse to defend Zeek in this game.

2) Told us that he was replacing out of this game because there was another game he wanted to be in.

In addition to those gems of stupidity, he has a total of 10 posts, hardly enough of a sample to read, especially when he comes off as more stupid than scummy. I mean, come on, what the HELL could be the smart scum OR town motivation for that argument against TSPN? This will be my third post, so I promise you that you will have much more of a basis to read me, and I suggest you forget my predecessor all together.

[Thestatusquo]

And I get to the end of my read and my predecesor was voting zeek already, well kudos to him. Just to make it official:

VOTE: ZEEKSCUM

Carry on, chaps.

[Johoohno]

unvote: MafiaSSK/TSQ

The vote was for pressure to deliver. Now let's see what comes from all this.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

In addition to those gems of stupidity, he has a total of 10 posts, hardly enough of a sample to read, especially when he comes off as more stupid than scummy. I mean, come on, what the HELL could be the smart scum OR town motivation for that argument against TSPN? This will be my third post, so I promise you that you will have much more of a basis to read me, and I suggest you forget my predecessor all together.

I agree with you about ssk. Obviously, I disagree with you about the scumhunting thing. Also, the difference between cake and zeek was that at no point did I feel like cake was in danger of being lynched, whereas I thought the town was prepared to lynch zeek for being zeek, which I am still opposed to.

Also, why do you not find iceman scummy? Why does a subtle rolefish of the precise kind that is scummy result in a newbie town read?

[Thestatusquo]

It WASN'T a subtle role fish...It was a horrible blunder of a role fish. The point is that it WAS a rolefish. Along with the rest of the posts hes made this game, most notably the "what is a claim" I really do not think that he was trying to subtly draw out information.

This is why I labeled it as an FYI. The main point was the FL was not role fishing in any way. Not even close to it.

Now, on to more serious matters...

If Cake was not in danger of being lynched, then what was the point of bandwagoning him? I ask this in all seriousness. What were you expecting to happen from his bandwagon?

Major FOS: joohoono

Every time you post it's some worthless comment like "Lets see what comes of this" or "I wonder what will happen now" or "I'm a worthless person who is never going to actually scumhunt."

I just made three HUGE posts about the course of the game, and the best you can do is unvote and say "lets see what comes of this?" IT ALREADY CAME. Now it's your job to actually stop being a bump on the log and actually play some mafia. Do this shit again and my vote is on you.

I want a response to my posts, and I want it now.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Well, I was hoping for a reaction from him that would either result in me continuing to pursue his wagon or deciding to pursue someone else.

[Thestatusquo]

Why would you expect a reaction from him?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Because usually when you vote for someone and ask them a question they react to it?

[Thestatusquo]

Why? I'm looking for the reason they would react to your vote at all, not some restatement of what I originally questioned.

[Thestatusquo]

Let me rephrase. If I go:

VOTE: THESWEATPANTSNINJA,

Why is that more likely to get a reaction, in your mind, than if I were to go:

BOOGABOOGABOOGA: SWEATPANTSNINJA?

Hmmm?

[ZeekLTK]

and I suggest you forget my predecessor all together.

Thank you for confirming to me that you are scum.

This is EXACTLY what Skruffs and Shaka said in 533. Guess what they were? Not pro-town...

[ZeekLTK]

Ah for some reason I thought TSQ was Nano.

That vote count is wrong. Mafia was never voting me and obviously I was never voting myself.

Nano and Faerie were the people voting me IIRC...

But still that is a huge scumtell... trying to tell people to forget everything the guy you replaced did. Why? Because he was scummy? Just because you are a replacement doesn't mean you get a free pass. Trying to do so is pretty anti-town.

[Thestatusquo]

and I suggest you forget my predecessor all together.

Thank you for confirming to me that you are scum.

This is EXACTLY what Skruffs and Shaka said in 533. Guess what they were? Not pro-town...

Would you like me to find 20 relevant examples where pro town players did the exact same thing? I mean, if you're really going to cite anecdotal evidence at me, the least you could do is expand your case study to more than 2 people.

In addition, it's easy to attempt to make someone look bad when you cut out the logic of a claim and just attack the claim as if the person didn't substantiate it at all. This is called "attacking something out of context" perhaps you would do well to go back to the logic I gave, and try to beat it. If you don't, then I will simply assume you can't, and if you do, I will be pleasantly surprised and we will have a lovely little chat.

By the way, attempting to make someone look bad by not responding to their logic but instead just their claim is once again another scum tell. You seem to accumulate them, don't you? This also makes me six for six or seven for seven on attacking people who have said they find you suspicious.

Also, since you have claimed 4-5 people are "confirmed scum to you" and seeing as the main factor in them being so to you was that they had voted you, I'm really not worried that I "confirmed myself as scum" to you. You see, when you cry wolf so many times, no one really is willing to actually listen to you anymore.

This is a lesson you should take out of this game. Mafia isnt about what you think, it's about convincing others that you are right, on both sides of the ball... When you attack everyone in site, using terms of certainty when you cant possibly be certain, it doesn't make people confident in your conclusions. When you make arguments like "they are attacking me and I am a confirmed townie to myself so they are more likely to be scum" you are making the mistake that everyone shares your perspective. We do not. To us, you are not a confirmed townie, you are an unknown who has dropped at least 5-6 scumtells. You can't expect the argument "they voted me and to me I'm a confirmed townie" to hold any sway with other people at all..

Hope you take that to heart.