Mini 584: Sudo_Nym Presents- Over!

[Thestatusquo]

If sudo would so kindly fix the quote tags, I would be obliged.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, the "makes me..." in that post should be "makes you..." sorry for the typo.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Ah, I see you what you're getting at. I suppose I mostly

voted

for him because the potential of lynching tends to spark a more sincere reaction from people.

And, at the time, I did find him the most scummy player, although it was only page 1.

[Thestatusquo]

So if you're saying that you were not expecting him to be lynched nor was he in danger of being lynched, what teeth does your vote have, and why did you expect him to react to it?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Because I didn't say when I voted "I don't expect you to be lynched?"

Is this just a trip through mafia theory, or are you leading up to something?

[Thestatusquo]

Well, it's leading to something in my mind... There's an internal contradiction in your actions. You say that bandwagoning is good in defense of Zeeks random assaults on cake, but then you strip the bandwagon of all its worth by saying, that in your mind at least, it had no teeth.

Then, when it comes to a bandwagon which does have teeth, and CAN net us information, you fight it like the plague. Not only the notion that a bandwagon would be good (remember there was far more of a case on zeek then there was on cake) but also the notion that getting a claim would be good. Seeing as these are the only two purposes of a bandwagon, I find it more than a little odd that you were supporting D1 bandwagons and then attacking them... The only conclusion that I can draw is that you're protecting an inexperienced scumbuddy who you know will not be very good at fake claiming.

In addition, even if you believe to have a meta on Zeek which says he was town, was the case on him not solid to anyone who DIDN'T have said meta? Furthermore, since when is one game as town enough meta to tell you he always does these things as town, or that he doesn't do them as scum? The simple and correct answer is that it doesn't. The fact that you then attacked other players for making a case, which, frankly, was one of the most solid day one cases I have seen in a long time, just because you had seen him do these things in one other game seems ridiculous to me. It seems like a not pro town thing to do, and it's a very fundamental reason why I think there is a pretty strong tie between you and zeek.

Really the only other reason I can see you making the actions you did was if Zeek were town and you knew this fact. Figuring that he would get lynched you got in some heavy duty buddying up and defending to make you look good when he hung, I think that it is very unlikely that a townie would marry themselves to an unknown the way you did, even if they did have a limited meta on him. Remember, you not only defended him, but attacked others for attacking him.

Regardless, it's time to get Zeek up to L-2 and get him to claim. If he doesn't, we lynch him. It's as simple as that. This is the only way you get information in a game of mafia, we might as well get on with it.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

In addition, even if you believe to have a meta on Zeek which says he was town, was the case on him not solid to anyone who DIDN'T have said meta? Furthermore, since when is one game as town enough meta to tell you he always does these things as town, or that he doesn't do them as scum? The simple and correct answer is that it doesn't. The fact that you then attacked other players for making a case, which, frankly, was one of the most solid day one cases I have seen in a long time, just because you had seen him do these things in one other game seems ridiculous to me. It seems like a not pro town thing to do, and it's a very fundamental reason why I think there is a pretty strong tie between you and zeek.

But if everyone who is voting zeek is voting him for something that he just did as town, then doesn't that take away the reason for voting for him? I certainly thought so. And I argued against it because I thought it was a poor bandwagon for that very reason.

Really the only other reason I can see you making the actions you did was if Zeek were town and you knew this fact. Figuring that he would get lynched you got in some heavy duty buddying up and defending to make you look good when he hung, I think that it is very unlikely that a townie would marry themselves to an unknown the way you did, even if they did have a limited meta on him. Remember, you not only defended him, but attacked others for attacking him.

I attacked faerielord because I didn't like him calling for a claim at L-2, yes. And I'll continue to attack people who support bandwagons for reasons I think are poor.

[ZeekLTK]

#1 I thought you were Nano (as I quickly realized I was wrong and made another post stating so), so calm down - but I read your posts and made a quick response to it under that assumption.

#2 Your numerous defenses of Faerie, another highly suspicious player, is noted.

#3 You said on Page 6 you would be willing to vote for/lynch me. lol. That was the whole problem with the bandwagon. What was the point of it? There was no case on me. Yet it swelled to 5 votes (nearly half of the game). Obviously it is not going to do that for no reason unless there are mafia pushing it, so yeah, that's where I am going to start when I'm looking for mafia - attacking the people who were on that wagon.

Who was on it?

Johoohno, but his was a random vote from the random stage and he later took it off, so it's not very likely that he is scum, as he could have easily just left it on there and let the votes keep piling up.

Cake, an OMGUS vote against me, but that was also during the [somewhat] random stage (as was my vote on him) so not too suspicious there.

Iceman was the first person to jump on my "let's lynch cake" statement and cast his vote accordingly. This is a null tell because it could be opportunistic scum, or it could be an over eager townie looking for possibly the first scumtell of the game (although, as I've said, I don't really see the comment as scummy considering the stage of the game and the context of it - following my vote in which my reason was "let's stir the pot"). Plus there is the whole "scumhunting" thing between him and TSPN (3 different occassions). Overall, that's why I don't want to lynch ice yet, because I think we can get more information out of him by keeping him around longer.

Next TDC Faerie and Nano all come in from not participating to full on attack of me (which is all the more suspicious to me because there really is no reason for these guys to vote for me - unlike the first three people who are - so this reeks of opportunism, which is what scum do)

So let's look at them individually.

TDC had not posted anything before his attack on me. He came in with a fairly long post in which he examined several aspects of the game (Johoohno, Cake, etc) and also voted for me. So while, again, this *could* be an opportunistic vote, it could also be a legit attempt at trying to be a good townie (but, again, misguided).

TDC later pushes the "case" for a few posts after I respond to him, but he also looks elsewhere in the game. For now I'm more inclined to lean towards "town", or at least "null-tell".

Faerie had made a comment earlier in the game saying "the Cake wagon is uninteresting to me" or something along those lines. So he was around when Cake and ice were (somewhat expectedly) attacking me, and at that time he decided he'd like to just ignore what was going on.

Then when TDC came in with a vote all of a sudden Faerie changes his tune and decides he would like to try to build a case against me (out of nothing, which I continually point out). He won't vote for me though, he just uses FoS. After Nano votes Faerie gets more aggressive, but still won't cast a vote. Then Johoohno unvotes and apparently Faerie is worried that the bandwagon is dying, so he does cast a vote. Why? I think he is getting worried that the bandwagon is slipping away, so he wants to revive it.

And then he calls for a claim for no reason. And seriously, what is the benefit of getting someone to claim on Day 1 (especially when there is no case against them?), what does he expect? Does he want me to claim doctor or cop? That only helps the mafia. What if I claim vanilla? Then what good is that because there is no way to prove it other than to have the cop investigate me (which is, again, no good for the town). He then makes an odd comment about if I claimed vig and says he would "go 1 for 1 if I was" (talking in the perspective of a scum - why would a townie do that??) The whole claim thing was very odd/suspicious. Like what was the point? If I had hinted that I had an investigation result, then yeah, force me to claim. If I hinted that I was going to do something at night, yeah, ask me what it was. But all I did was say (during the random voting stage) "are we going to lynch Cake?" Oh wow, that's really a great reason to try to get a claim out of someone.

And then you (TSQ) say Faerie backing down is pro-town. I'd say it's null. Because scum know the people they are attacking are not scum, so it's not necessarily in their best interest to put so much attention on themselves by attacking a player they know will turn up to prove them wrong.

For another 533 reference see Shaka... he spent all of his time attacking me to get me lynched. He succeeded, but then when I came up town (as he obviously knew I would), then the town turned and lynched him. Horrible play from him because he didn't consider the consequences of getting me lynched, he was too focused on getting that one mislynch. But I imagine Faerie is more intelligent than Shaka, so I can see him wanting to back down if no one else is standing beside him. Yeah he can fight for me to get lynched all day, but if he's scum, he knows that at the end of the day I'll come up town, and then he'll look awfully bad for attacking me so hard. So backing down I would say is, at best, a null-tell because while it could be a townie move, it just as easily could be a scum move. The fact that he gets so frustrated and revotes for me (to try to get the wagon rolling based on emotion now - since he still doesn't have a case on me) is again another suspicious action to add to the list. Maybe he's frustrated that I'm going after his buddy?

Because that leads us to Nano. The scummiest man on earth? Possibly. He puts me on L-2 in post #113 (his second post of the game) by going back and finding 2 random quotes to take out of context and use it to vote for me, all the while ignoring everything else that has happened in the game (questions raised about ice, TSPN, mafia, etc.). This is not like TDC, this is a blatant bandwagon vote with little evidence and a complete disregard for any other actions that have happened in the game. He didn't come here with that post to find scum, he came here to push a bandwagon.

Even Lowell has pointed out how blatantly scummy Nano's vote was:

For some reason nano's post 113 gives me solid town vibes. I couldn't tell you why, other than I'm a sucker for WIFOM and doubt he'd be so brazen as to jump in with a fifth vote if he was scum.

Except for some reason Lowell thinks being blatantly scummy is a "solid town vibe" (so yeah, FOS Lowell, but I won't be too concerned about him until it's proven that Nano is scum). Instead, I also find it blatantly scummy, so that's why I want to LYNCH Nano...

---

But as for TSQ, I find your attempt to keep the suspicion on me, discredit me, and again force a useless claim out of me to be suspicious (obviously).

Tack on mafiaSSK's track record, your request for us to completely ignore that track record, and your defense of Faerie (you seem very eager to tell us that he is town) and, well, I think everyone should keep an eye on you.

But I still want to lynch Nano.

[Thestatusquo]

1) The argument I am making is that just because you have had one game experience with him as town where he did those things does not mean that it is his meta to do those things as town. It is not a large enough sample. Similarly, it does not mean that he does not do said things as scum.

2) An even more important argument is that outside of your "Knowledge of him as a player" the bandwagon looks damn good. So how in good faith could you attack players for not knowing his meta?

3) This is mafia 101. When you get someone to lynching range (lynching range is typically l-2 or 1, the safer and more pro town option being two, that way you can put on a little more pressure if they refuse to claim) you get them to claim. This is the point of a bandwagon, especially on day one. Even if Zeek is town, in your eyes, it is still better that he claim, because a) It means he can avoid lynch if he is pro town, and b) it means that if he gets lynched we have a lot more information to analyze the next day. Srsly, thats the whole POINT of a day one bandwagon. I am saying that when you do not do this at the end of a bandwagon, then what the hell incentive is there to react to it? You are essentially destroying the towns only means of information when you do not push for a claim within lynch range.

4) Lastly, I've already touched on this...The reasons were poor given your own personal meta on him. They were not poor in mafia terms. In fact, zeek has dropped at least 5 scumtells (strong ones, probably a lot more weaker ones.) this game. For you to get up there and attack players that are willing to vote him after that is not only ridiculously stupid, but also anti town.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok, lets go through this one by one to analyze the bullshit.

#1 I thought you were Nano (as I quickly realized I was wrong and made another post stating so), so calm down - but I read your posts and made a quick response to it under that assumption.

All my points still apply regardless of who you think I was. Please answer them.

#2 Your numerous defenses of Faerie, another highly suspicious player, is noted.

As is your inability, once again, to answer the logic of my post, and attack the claim. I gave 2 or 3 seperate reasons why I thought FL was town. Please do not act as if I just said "FL IS TOWN LOLOLOLOLOL"

#3 You said on Page 6 you would be willing to vote for/lynch me. lol. That was the whole problem with the bandwagon. What was the point of it? There was no case on me. Yet it swelled to 5 votes (nearly half of the game). Obviously it is not going to do that for no reason unless there are mafia pushing it, so yeah, that's where I am going to start when I'm looking for mafia - attacking the people who were on that wagon.

The point of it, with all due respect, was to lynch you. In fact, lets look at my reasons from page 6:

The key point (and this is particularly damning against TSPN as well) is that he doesn't ever actually scumhunt. The "attack" on cake isnt scummy in that he attacks cake early (I do similar things all the time) but rather that he never attempts to derive information from it. He is not attempting to push cake so that he will find out cakes, or anyone elses alignment, but rather just for the hell of it. He then completely stops attempting to find scum and attacks everyone who even remotely finds him suspicious. These are not pro town actions AT ALL.

LOOKIE HERE! IT'S A WHOLE PARAGRAPH OF REASONS! You know, those things you forget about when you're just quoting the claim and not the actual argument the person makes? Here, I accuse you of having motivations that are not pro town. Motivational tells are the strongest ones in mafia, because they don't look at the actions of the player, they look at why they took them. Doing that, you can look at what win condition a player is playing towards. Here I discuss how your actions are not pro town because you do not seem to be attempting to find scum. Your actions seem to be to point people away from you, and not to gain any information about the other players, as a pro town player would be want to do. In the end, the only thing I can derive from this is that you're stupid, or mafia, or both. This is a pretty damning case, and one you've yet to respond to.

Who was on it?

Johoohno, but his was a random vote from the random stage and he later took it off, so it's not very likely that he is scum, as he could have easily just left it on there and let the votes keep piling up.

Cake, an OMGUS vote against me, but that was also during the [somewhat] random stage (as was my vote on him) so not too suspicious there.

Iceman was the first person to jump on my "let's lynch cake" statement and cast his vote accordingly. This is a null tell because it could be opportunistic scum, or it could be an over eager townie looking for possibly the first scumtell of the game (although, as I've said, I don't really see the comment as scummy considering the stage of the game and the context of it - following my vote in which my reason was "let's stir the pot"). Plus there is the whole "scumhunting" thing between him and TSPN (3 different occassions). Overall, that's why I don't want to lynch ice yet, because I think we can get more information out of him by keeping him around longer.

Next TDC Faerie and Nano all come in from not participating to full on attack of me (which is all the more suspicious to me because there really is no reason for these guys to vote for me - unlike the first three people who are - so this reeks of opportunism, which is what scum do)

This is all wrong! Do you seriously expect us to base all our scumhunting this game off of who voted you? Seriously? Do you really think that the entire goal of the mafia is to quick lynch you? If so, then you are literally the stupidest player I have ever had the missfortune of playing with on the site. And that INCLUDES drippinggoofball. Ok, here, listen up, I'm going to say this only once, and you're going to listen...

In a game of mafia, people are not suspicious because they suspect you. Why is this? Well, a miriad of reasons, really, but the main one is that YOUR ROLE IS UNKNOWN. The mafias objective is to win, not lynch you. The towns job is to find scum. This involves being suspicious of players like yourself, who have committed MAJOR scum tells. It is not coincidence that 6-7 people over the course of the game have found your actions scummy at points. It is your scummy actions fault, not the fault of the other players. In short, be less scummy.

Every single poster you list on your "black list" had legitimate reasons for voting you, especially in the early game. Every, single, fucking, one. The fact that you're now trying to act like anyone who LOOKS at you funny is scum is not only unconvincing as HELL, but as flawed an argument as possible.

I'll ask you this, face up: What the fuck would the motivation of all those people be, if they really were scum? What the HELL good could come of scum all piling onto you in the early game and getting you lynched? It's not like you're a good town player who is a threat. it's not like theres reason for them to act together agressively like that in the early game, there's no threat...You're saying that the scum just decided that it was time to lynch YOU SPECIFICALLY and then went at it.

So let's look at them individually.

TDC had not posted anything before his attack on me. He came in with a fairly long post in which he examined several aspects of the game (Johoohno, Cake, etc) and also voted for me. So while, again, this *could* be an opportunistic vote, it could also be a legit attempt at trying to be a good townie (but, again, misguided).

Ok, so let me get this straight...because he attacked other people, he is less likely to be scum, but if he had only attacked you, he would have been scummy? Oh my god you're making my brain hurt SO bad. Do you not see how completely and totally illogical that is?

TDC later pushes the "case" for a few posts after I respond to him, but he also looks elsewhere in the game. For now I'm more inclined to lean towards "town", or at least "null-tell".

Wow...Oh my god, that really is what you're saying...Youre really saying that a scummy action is attacking you, and not attacking you is a townie action...You really need to be in a psych ward somewhere...

Faerie had made a comment earlier in the game saying "the Cake wagon is uninteresting to me" or something along those lines. So he was around when Cake and ice were (somewhat expectedly) attacking me, and at that time he decided he'd like to just ignore what was going on.

The claim and warrant does not follow. Like, at all...What argument are you even making here?

Then when TDC came in with a vote all of a sudden Faerie changes his tune and decides he would like to try to build a case against me (out of nothing, which I continually point out). He won't vote for me though, he just uses FoS. After Nano votes Faerie gets more aggressive, but still won't cast a vote. Then Johoohno unvotes and apparently Faerie is worried that the bandwagon is dying, so he does cast a vote. Why? I think he is getting worried that the bandwagon is slipping away, so he wants to revive it.

1) Faerie never said that your wagon wasn't interesting, he said it was CAKES wagon that was uninteresting. He's not "changing his tune" at all. There is literally NO position switch. The case isn't out of nothing. I think it has at least 5 or 6 good points. I, and many others in the game, agree with them.
2) Faerie has already explained AT LEAST THREE TIMES TO YOU THIS GAME that he does not vote unless he absolutely needs to. Your continually trotting it out as if it's damning against him or something only makes you look foolish.
3) Faerie wanted you to claim, and without a claim, wanted you lynched. Thats what happens in a game of mafia when a player is very suspicious of another player. There is nothing in faeries actions that is not consistant with a pro town player who thought you were scum. Try to look at it this way...Pretend that you're another player, and that faerie attacks THAT player, with all the things that player has done which are similar to what you've done. Is that an anti town action? Because, remember, we don't know your alignment.

And then he calls for a claim for no reason. And seriously, what is the benefit of getting someone to claim on Day 1 (especially when there is no case against them?), what does he expect? Does he want me to claim doctor or cop? That only helps the mafia. What if I claim vanilla? Then what good is that because there is no way to prove it other than to have the cop investigate me (which is, again, no good for the town).

This rant just shows that you don't know how mafia works. A claim is literally THE ONLY REASON FOR DAY ONE IN A GAME OF MAFIA. A claim, and the lynch that is. We get information from you, and then we better decide to lynch you. If you are pro town, then it is to your advantage that you claim, because it might save your lynch.

This is important. I want you to stop thinking there is no case against you. There IS, so much that at least 7 players have been suspicious of you thusfar this game. Even if EVERY SINGLE SCUM is among that group, which I HIGHLY doubt (If I were scum and I knew you were town I'd be much more likely to defend you then attack you, or do a little bit of both, as SPN has done.) Thats still 4 protown players who think there's a decent case against you. (note: Calculations done with the assumption of 3 scum, which is reasonable in a mini.)

Now that's out of the way, I can address the rest of the argument: The reason you should claim is that it might help you avoid a lynch. This is a thing a pro town player wants to do at all costs, because the town needs to lynch scum. Even if you ARE a doctor, or a cop, it is much much much much better for you to be killed by them at night then for the town to waste a lynch on killing you. If you don't claim when we get you back up to l-2 (as is the fucking norm) then we will lynch you. You don't want that, do you?

He then makes an odd comment about if I claimed vig and says he would "go 1 for 1 if I was" (talking in the perspective of a scum - why would a townie do that??) The whole claim thing was very odd/suspicious. Like what was the point? If I had hinted that I had an investigation result, then yeah, force me to claim. If I hinted that I was going to do something at night, yeah, ask me what it was. But all I did was say (during the random voting stage) "are we going to lynch Cake?" Oh wow, that's really a great reason to try to get a claim out of someone.

1) He already explained this to you twice. It was a hypothetical situation. He was saying that scum would not have the motivation to do what you are claiming that they are doing, unless, of course, you are a vigilante. This is because going 1 for 1 with a vig might be advantageous to scum, because a vig can often go 2-1 or 3-1 with scum. So it's a bargain, but any other role, it's not worth it. Taking the perspective of the scum is not odd, or suspicious, it's how you play the game. Try to figure out what the scum would do/think, and then match those behaviors/paterns to whats going on in the game. Not this "OMG YOU VOTED ME" Bullshit system YOU seem to have in place.

And then you (TSQ) say Faerie backing down is pro-town. I'd say it's null. Because scum know the people they are attacking are not scum, so it's not necessarily in their best interest to put so much attention on themselves by attacking a player they know will turn up to prove them wrong.

And now we add a wifom argument to your impressive list of scumtells.

For another 533 reference see Shaka... he spent all of his time attacking me to get me lynched. He succeeded, but then when I came up town (as he obviously knew I would), then the town turned and lynched him. Horrible play from him because he didn't consider the consequences of getting me lynched, he was too focused on getting that one mislynch. But I imagine Faerie is more intelligent than Shaka, so I can see him wanting to back down if no one else is standing beside him. Yeah he can fight for me to get lynched all day, but if he's scum, he knows that at the end of the day I'll come up town, and then he'll look awfully bad for attacking me so hard. So backing down I would say is, at best, a null-tell because while it could be a townie move, it just as easily could be a scum move. The fact that he gets so frustrated and revotes for me (to try to get the wagon rolling based on emotion now - since he still doesn't have a case on me) is again another suspicious action to add to the list. Maybe he's frustrated that I'm going after his buddy?

First of all, this is a) Wifom, b) Poisoning the well ANOTHER SCUM TELL, c) anecdotal, and d) Not an actual argument. What do you mean by "going after his scumbuddy" You've gone after at least 7 people today, all with the same exact degree of certainty. I can assure you, no scum is shaking in their boots at the sounds of your accusations. You make them way too often, way too strong, and with way too little basis in reality.

But as for TSQ, I find your attempt to keep the suspicion on me, discredit me, and again force a useless claim out of me to be suspicious (obviously).

Tack on mafiaSSK's track record, your request for us to completely ignore that track record, and your defense of Faerie (you seem very eager to tell us that he is town) and, well, I think everyone should keep an eye on you.

But I still want to lynch Nano.

Did you ever consider the fact that possibly...Just possibly, a pro town player might want to lynch you? Think about it, even if every scum has attacked you, which is not likely, the amount of pro town players finding you suspicious would still out number them...It makes literally no sense for you to think attacking you is scummy when so many people are doing it. Sure, some of them could be scum, but all of them? And is it likely? No fucking way....

[TDC]

Without the threat of a lynch, there's literally no incentive for a player to do ANYTHING once they have reached 5-6 votes, and thus it loses all purpose.

I agree, but the threat to lynch can only come from players who are not already voting for the lynchee, and that seemed to me what was lacking. So FaerieLord's request of a claim was premature in my eyes.
I always thought the purpose of bandwagoning was finding out who's scum and who isn't, and not simply extracting a claim. I see that more as a last resort.

I agree that this wagon horribly failed at everything though.

Up to page 13 and the Zeek bandwagon has completely disintegrated for no logical reason that I can see...

Can only speak for me, but somehow the town seemed to have come to the consensus that "Zeek is scummy when he's town, so his scumminess here is a null tell", so that Zeek seemed pretty unlynchable, regardless of what he does.

If you can change the town consensus, kudos to you, I'd happily put my vote back on him if I see it's not a waste of time anymore.

Would like to hear from SirTornado.

[Thestatusquo]

Without the threat of a lynch, there's literally no incentive for a player to do ANYTHING once they have reached 5-6 votes, and thus it loses all purpose.

I agree, but the threat to lynch can only come from players who are not already voting for the lynchee, and that seemed to me what was lacking. So FaerieLord's request of a claim was premature in my eyes.
I always thought the purpose of bandwagoning was finding out who's scum and who isn't, and not simply extracting a claim. I see that more as a last resort.

I agree that this wagon horribly failed at everything though.

Up to page 13 and the Zeek bandwagon has completely disintegrated for no logical reason that I can see...

Can only speak for me, but somehow the town seemed to have come to the consensus that "Zeek is scummy when he's town, so his scumminess here is a null tell", so that Zeek seemed pretty unlynchable, regardless of what he does.

If you can change the town consensus, kudos to you, I'd happily put my vote back on him if I see it's not a waste of time anymore.

Would like to hear from SirTornado.

The purpose of a bandwagon is not really to gain information on the person you are bandwagoning so much as information on all the other players in the game. Who the bandwagon is on, in that regard, is really immaterial. Secondary is the need to lynch scum (on day one at least) because both kinds of wagons lead to good information. So you want to get them to claim to make sure that youre not lynching someone thats confirmable town. The claim will save him, and we'll have a better chance of lynching scum on the next bandwagon. Thats how these things work. The way town wins this game is with information.

I know that was the reasoning, but to me, it seems like really stupid logic...especially when the sample size we are drawing from is so small. If you were able to point to 5-10 games where he did these actions as town, then I would say you could safely say there was an established meta that could be drawn upon.

But even given that, I say we lynch the bastard anyway. He has not contributed a single meaningful thing to the game, and he will be a liability on our side the whole rest of the game. The way I see it, he's either scum or scum are going to make sure not to kill him the whole game just so we have to deal with him.

Lastly, to me theres no way that ALL these scummy things he's doing are him being a bad player. I'm willing to bet that even if acting like a useless scummy fuck IS his meta, some of what he's doing are genuinely scum tells.

[FaerieLord]

And intelligence fills this thread again. But beware TSQ, you're auto scum now since you think Zeek is scummy.

But up until now, I agree with every thing you said

#2 Your numerous defenses of Faerie, another highly suspicious player, is noted.

This made me laugh, since you are about the only person that thinks I'm scummy

But yeah, as I said, shea covered it all.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

1) The argument I am making is that just because you have had one game experience with him as town where he did those things does not mean that it is his meta to do those things as town. It is not a large enough sample. Similarly, it does not mean that he does not do said things as scum.

2) An even more important argument is that outside of your "Knowledge of him as a player" the bandwagon looks damn good. So how in good faith could you attack players for not knowing his meta?

Its possible I'm wrong, but I don't think so. And I voted for faerielord because I didn't like him calling for a claim at L-2 (and I still think L-1 is more optimal), but other than that, I didn't vote anyone for voting zeek.

3) This is mafia 101. When you get someone to lynching range (lynching range is typically l-2 or 1, the safer and more pro town option being two, that way you can put on a little more pressure if they refuse to claim) you get them to claim. This is the point of a bandwagon, especially on day one. Even if Zeek is town, in your eyes, it is still better that he claim, because a) It means he can avoid lynch if he is pro town, and b) it means that if he gets lynched we have a lot more information to analyze the next day. Srsly, thats the whole POINT of a day one bandwagon. I am saying that when you do not do this at the end of a bandwagon, then what the hell incentive is there to react to it? You are essentially destroying the towns only means of information when you do not push for a claim within lynch range.

I think the "claim is always pro-town" is a real stretch, unless you're one of those people that always supports massclaim. Clearly not every claim is in fact pro-town. People should claim only when the town is prepared to lynch. Had zeek been placed at L-1, and someone was ready to hammer, that would have been the time to claim. But I opposed the bandwagon, because I don't think he's scum, and having pro-town players claim isn't protown (unless they're going to be lynched).

4) Lastly, I've already touched on this...The reasons were poor given your own personal meta on him. They were not poor in mafia terms. In fact, zeek has dropped at least 5 scumtells (strong ones, probably a lot more weaker ones.) this game. For you to get up there and attack players that are willing to vote him after that is not only ridiculously stupid, but also anti town.

So given my personal meta, they were poor reasons, and I said so. Again, I "attacked" players in terms of their arguments, and I did vote faerielord, but its not like I've been pursuing players based on the zeek wagon. My current vote for iceman (who is much more scummy than zeek, imo) has nothing to do with the zeek wagon.

Lastly, to me theres no way that ALL these scummy things he's doing are him being a bad player. I'm willing to bet that even if acting like a useless scummy fuck IS his meta, some of what he's doing are genuinely scum tells.

Believe me, he's done all those things. The only thing I find really interesting is his defense of iceman, because he once said he didn't think scum would ever attack each other. . . but since iceman is at the top of my scumlist, may as well keep going after him.

[icemanE]

I think Zeek needs to be forced to claim, this is getting whacked.

vote:zeek

[icemanE]

EBWOP:

Sorry, forgot to unvote SSK first.

unvote. Vote: Zeek

[ZeekLTK]

I'll ask you this, face up: What the fuck would the motivation of all those people be, if they really were scum? What the HELL good could come of scum all piling onto you in the early game and getting you lynched? It's not like you're a good town player who is a threat. it's not like theres reason for them to act together agressively like that in the early game, there's no threat...You're saying that the scum just decided that it was time to lynch YOU SPECIFICALLY and then went at it.[/qoute]

You apparently can't read because you are trying to accuse me of saying that every single person that voted me is scum, while the whole point of part #3 was breaking down everyone and saying that I think Johoohno, Cake, and TDC are probably town, ice is still undecided, Faerie is possibly scum, and Nano is definitely scum...

based on that, I already said what the motivation was (and it's pretty clear if you take a step back and look at what happened): numerous town players have expresses suspicion/voted for me, so the mafia's motivation is to take advantage of this and try to advance the bandwagon and get a townie lynched.

I don't see why that is so hard to understand.

I love how you quoted basically everything from my post EXCEPT my point against Nano (which explains the motivation). Here, since you missed it I will bring it back, and highlight the main point:

Because that leads us to Nano. The scummiest man on earth? Possibly. He puts me on L-2 in post #113 (his second post of the game) by going back and finding 2 random quotes to take out of context and use it to vote for me, all the while ignoring everything else that has happened in the game (questions raised about ice, TSPN, mafia, etc.). This is not like TDC, this is a blatant bandwagon vote with little evidence and a complete disregard for any other actions that have happened in the game.

He didn't come here with that post to find scum, he came here to push a bandwagon.

Just in case you still missed it, I will post it outside of the quote boxes again:

He didn't come here with that post to find scum, he came here to push a bandwagon.

That is his motivation...


And no, Day 1 is not about claiming and lynching, it's about laying the foundation of interactions between players to make judgments from later. Eventually it has to end in a lynch, and it would be preferable if that lynch was a mafia (like Nano), but honestly no one should really claim on Day 1 unless it's a cop with a previous night investigation (which didn't happen because this game started in day) or a miller (to avoid being investigated by a cop).

Since (unfortunately) I'm not a miller in this game, I honestly see no benefit that can come from any type of claim from myself, or anyone else at this point (unless they are a miller). So I wonder why you are pushing for it so hard...

[ZeekLTK]

Seriously, iceman... tell me: what do you expect to gain from a claim?

TSQ has said this:

Even if Zeek is town, in your eyes, it is still better that he claim, because a) It means he can avoid lynch if he is pro town

I mean, seriously. Has anyone ever claimed to be "not pro town". So your whole plan is to get me on L-2, L-1, whatever and have me claim... OBVIOUSLY I am going to claim to be pro-town, so then what? Oh how nice, now we have a townie within reach of a lynch, and any old asshole can come in with some slim reasoning and mislynch me... how nice and convenient for the mafia...

This whole calling for a claim thing - this is just a ploy to keep the bandwagon going, because honestly what does anyone expect once we get to that point?

Iceman, and anyone else considering it, don't fall for this crap.

[ZeekLTK]

EBWOP:

I mean, seriously. Has anyone ever claimed to be "not pro town". So your whole plan is to get me on L-2, L-1, whatever and have me claim... OBVIOUSLY I am going to claim to be pro-town, so then what? Oh how nice, now we have a townie within reach of a lynch, and any old asshole can come in with some [weak] reasoning and mislynch me... how nice and convenient for the mafia... *

*and even better if that person is a townie, because then the mafia can attack them on Day 2 for hammering me.

Potentially two mislynches in a row - then get to Day 3 and all we have is 4 dead townies (assuming 1 kill per night) and no leads on who is mafia (other than my case on Nano). What a great setup for the town. That's the best plan I've ever heard of. [/sarcasm]

[FaerieLord]

I think Zeek needs to be forced to claim, this is getting whacked.



vote:zeek

Yeah...I don't like that

He didn't come here with that post to find scum, he came here to push a bandwagon.

Or maybe he voiced his opinions at the time, then stopped playing all together.

Besides, that's one thing against Nano (At best). Count all the things brought up against you by multiple players

Since (unfortunately) I'm not a miller in this game, I honestly see no benefit that can come from any type of claim from myself, or anyone else at this point (unless they are a miller). So I wonder why you are pushing for it so hard...

Because if you're mafia, you'll stagger since you don't have a claim thought up yet. So yes, a claim can help.

Potentially two mislynches in a row - then get to Day 3 and all we have is 4 dead townies (assuming 1 kill per night) and no leads on who is mafia (other than my case on Nano).

Shut up with your bloody case on Nano. No one is paying attention to it for a reason. People think you're scummier, deal with it chap

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Zeek, it boggles my mind how you can have been on this site for almost a year and still just not get it.

And no, Day 1 is not about claiming and lynching, it's about laying the foundation of interactions between players to make judgments from later. Eventually it has to end in a lynch, and it would be preferable if that lynch was a mafia (like Nano), but honestly no one should really claim on Day 1 unless it's a cop with a previous night investigation (which didn't happen because this game started in day) or a miller (to avoid being investigated by a cop).

Since (unfortunately) I'm not a miller in this game, I honestly see no benefit that can come from any type of claim from myself, or anyone else at this point (unless they are a miller). So I wonder why you are pushing for it so hard...

Because claims make sense. It does not make sense to lynch, say, an uncounterclaimed cop, because, y'know, there's a pretty good chance they're a cop.

I mean, seriously. Has anyone ever claimed to be "not pro town". So your whole plan is to get me on L-2, L-1, whatever and have me claim... OBVIOUSLY I am going to claim to be pro-town, so then what? Oh how nice, now we have a townie within reach of a lynch, and any old asshole can come in with some [weak] reasoning and mislynch me... how nice and convenient for the mafia... *

And why would a townie do that? After all, according to you, every protown player ought to have the magical ability to tell that you're protown, right?

Assume that the scum might have a modicum of smarts, and reconsider your assumptions about the game. Because right now (another mini 533 reference, because that's all this game is, really), you're disciple slayer. In fact, you're almost worse, because he was being intentionally useless, and you so fervently believe in your value.

[FaerieLord]

Yeah, disciple was a useless player. Zeek is being a zealous useless player

[Lowell]

I'd be willing to lynch zeek to get this game moving. How many votes does he have?

[ZeekLTK]

Zeek, it boggles my mind how you can have been on this site for almost a year and still just not get it.

Seriously, did you not pay attention during 533? This is exactly what you guys were trying to tell me - that I didn't know what I was doing and harming the town and blah blah blah and then look at what happened:

-I was right on Skruffs being anti-town
-I was right on Michel being pro-town
-I was right on Shaka being anti-town
-I was right on soupfly being pro-town (yes, initially I fought with him at the beginning of Day 2, but by the middle of the day I had realized I was wrong and stopped going after him)

If you guys would have just listened to me...

In fact, I've won every game that I've played on this site that I've been a major factor in (assuming they get it right here at the end of 533) so I think I know what I'm doing.

Just because when I'm town I like to get in there and mix it up with numerous people to try to find scum... I don't see why that is so terrible.

The reason the threads get so cluttered is because some of the people I am arguing with are not town, so they are not going to accept reasonable arguments. This is why 533 dragged on, because I was arguing with Skruffs the whole time... and Skruffs was not a townie - so obviously he wasn't going to admit that most of the things I said were right, he was going to argue them forever and hope that eventually I'd back off or the town would get sick of me. That doesn't make me wrong though.

--

And I say all this because that's all you guys are attacking - my playstyle. Nothing I have done in this game is scummy at all. What have I done?

-Made a comment about "are we going to lynch Cake?" on like page 2

-Used some rhetoric to answer iceman when he attacked me for it ("Cake could be scum, so my vote wouldn't be scummy if he was now would it?")

-"OMGUSed some people" (which I've already explained my reasoning, I feel like the bandwagon was pushed to too many votes for such weak reasoning that there are most likely scum on it, so I am trying to figure out who they are...)

-???

Yeah those are great reasons to vote for me. Clearly I am scum based on that.

What exactly have I done that could have benefited the mafia if I were scum? I called attention to myself and I am trying to get people to vote for a player that has no votes... yeah that's really a great strategy for a mafia isn't it? Especially compared to the alternative; where I could sit back and be unnoticed and vote for a player with a lot of votes to quietly push him towards being lynched. Obviously the mafia would never do that, right?

[Sudo_Nym]

ZeekLTK 4

-

Sir Tornado, FaerieLord, Thestatusquo, icemanE

icemanE 2-

TheSweatpantsNinja, CaptainCake

Greasy Spot 1-

Lowell

Lowell 1-

Greasy Spot

Sir Tornado 1-

ZeekLTK

With 12 alive, 7 votes will lynch.