Mini 584: Sudo_Nym Presents- Over!

[Johoohno]

I am not a doc.

Vote:CaptainCake

Time to wake up the lurkers, and this one seems most likely to come to life.

[icemanE]

Now, Iceman, you say you are 90% certain that lowell is scum. Please post a case for me outlining why you think so?

No.

My question to you is there anything that I'm missing? Please elaborate on your case on me.

There's probably something you're missing, and I don't feel like elaborating at the moment.

[TDC]

Any more players that want to claim they know something, but not what it is?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Iceman's still scum. And he's devolving into a zeekstorm. Can we lynch him now?

OK, not really. We should wait for everyone to claim not-doc, and then lynch him.

[icemanE]

I guess no one here is thinking pro-town, and that's fine with me. The way everyone is talking right now makes me think I was plopped into a game with one town player (myself) and all scum. But that can't be right, because i haven't lost.

Any more players that want to claim they know something, but not what it is?

Let me put it to you this way: as TSQ said, sometimes things are better left unsaid, in the town's interest. Continue to disregard what i have to say, if you feel so compelled.

[icemanE]

And TSQ: If you want ME to outline MY case on Lowell, why don't you ask your buddy to outline his case on ME? He's said nothing of worth all game, and yet you side with him. That's something I consider very scummy. I might give the TOWN a rundown of my case on Lowell later today or tomorrow, but I'm not doing anything for YOU.

[Lowell]

Iceman's still scum. And he's devolving into a zeekstorm. Can we lynch him now?

OK, not really. We should wait for everyone to claim not-doc, and then lynch him.

Okay, again, I don't like this. Asking people to claim "not doc" is basically the same as asking the doc to counterclaim. If GS is the doc, scum already know and this is pointless. If he's scum trying a gambit to take down a powerrole with him, then saying "not doc" from all sides pretty much limits the field.

[Thestatusquo]

Now, Iceman, you say you are 90% certain that lowell is scum. Please post a case for me outlining why you think so?

No.

My question to you is there anything that I'm missing? Please elaborate on your case on me.

There's probably something you're missing, and I don't feel like elaborating at the moment.

Let me ask you something: Do you think that refusing reasonable questions makes you look pro town? Expanding upon that, do you think that me asking you to explain your suspicions is unreasonable, and if so, why?

Furthermore, of the players who are currently attacking you, I would say lowell is doing so the least strenuously. If you really would like to point at someone and ask them to make a case on you, TSPN is probably the most logical choice, since A, he is confirmed town, and B, he is the one most in favor of your lynch. Its a fair point, though. TSPN, would you mind outlining your reasons why you think iceman is scum?

Also, you keep telling me that "I am sure lowell is town." Note that I have never said any such thing. I am lacking any read on lowell at all, currently. Your case against him, as far as I can see, is crap. I will always defend other players against crap cases, so as to avoid crap cases gaining steam. If you would like to elaborate on your case, perhas you may convince me, but as of right now you've given me nothing to think you're correct in assuming he's scum. In my mind lowel is as likely to be scum as he is town right now. As are a couple of other people in this game. In some cases the scale tilts the other way (for instance I am about 70% sure FL is town and 60-65% sure you're scum) and in some cases I am treating players as confirmed town (GS and TSPN) If someone were to attack any other player in the game as you've done to Lowell, I would have defended them. If lowell did something I found scummy, I would attack him like anyone else. YOu don't seem to understand this...

The problem isn't that i think lowell is town, it's that your case is terrib;le.

[Sudo_Nym]

Vote Count:

icemanE 3

-

TheSweatpantsNinja, Lowell, Thestatusquo

Lowell 1-

icemanE

Thestatusquo 1-

Greasy Spot

CaptainCake 1-

Johoohno

I have been in PM contact with the missing players, and at this point, Marmalade and Captain Cake will be replaced unless they come back. Sir Tornade will be given a bit longer, for reasons given via PM.

[icemanE]

in some cases I am treating players as confirmed town (GS and TSPN)

Why, then, would you support and not challenge a player who clearly does not believe that GS is town, if you consider him confirmed to be so? If you answer any question or point I'll raise in this post please address this one, as that is one thing I can't understand .

I greatly appreciate the change in tone you've shown in your last post. It is much more respectful and reasonable, and as such, yes, I'll outline why I think Lowell is scum. In fact, I have a good chunk of free time on my hands right now, so I'll start from the beginning...

Long ago, in this very game, there was a player named Natishara. Natishara joined the game late, as he had to attend a funeral. Then, Natishara admitted he was lurking in this game because there was a much more complicated game he was playing in that took more of his time.

[quote="Nat:]Anyways, I am watching, waiting, but this game is second on my priority list and that other game is very intricate. [/quote]

Ok, Natishara hasn't done anything too scummy so far. You've gotta feel bad for the guy, right? He just got back from a funeral and he's got this other really complex game... give him his space, it's cool. Then he got too caught up in his other games and asked to be replaced. Enter Lowell.

Hi folks. I'm here. Will read by tomorrow.

Welcome, Lowell. We all hope you'll contribute more than you're predecessor, since unfortunate circumstances prevented him from being a useful member of the town. Still noting scummy to be seen. And shortly after joining, Lowell made a substantial post: essentially, a review and evaluation of the game thus far, for which we were very thankful.

Okay as I read, here goes:

1-25- random voting
27- ice FOSs cake
28-29- mafiassk and cake would like explanation for 27
32- zeek agrees w/ ice, votes cake to "stir the pot"
37- cake offers longwinded response [useless]
39- SPN meta-discusses non-random votes [suspicious]
41- johoohno agrees w/ cake [?]
49- capcake leads w/ 3 votes (marmalade, TSPN, Zeek)
51- johoo calls out ice and greasy for meaningless posts [good]
53- TSPN votes ice for unvoting for no reason
55- zeek pushes cake lynch
56,58- greasy, ice attack zeek w/ FOSs [a little bit off...]
60- cake OMGUSs, votes zeek
62- mafiassk defends ice, orders others not to vote [dumb, but town]
67- greasy spot attacks post 62, posits scum protecting partner theory [weak, and scummy]
68- faiere agrees [still not seeing it]
69- marmalade votes greasyspot
73- ice votes zeek [mediocre reason]
75- TSPN votes mafiassk based also on 62
86- zeek leads with 3 votes (johoo, cake, ice)
88- zeek points out the dumbness of the votes against him [good]
89- TDC votes zeek
92- TSPN chastises people for whining about wagons [good]
96- ice continues to defend his vote on zeek [also good]
99- faiere jumps in, FOSs zeek and TSPN
101- TSPN reiterates his case for a bit more carefree play on D1 [okay]
105- zeek votes iceman for "fake" scumhunting [a bit OMGUS]
108,109- zeek and iceman find faierelord scummy for 99
112- zeek leads with 4 votes (johoo, cake, ice, TDC)
113- nano jumps in, votes zeek (5th vote)
115- zeek again decries his wagon, says there's "scum on it" [useless, scummy]
116- marmalade points out zeek's scummy style, doesn't vote [good]
119- johoo unvotes zeek, FOSs zeek [scummy. not clear AT ALL where he stands on zeek]
125- zeek again questions the legitimacy of the case on him
126- faierelord explains it again
127- TDC opposes zeek claim
131- faierelord votes zeek, fifth vote, wants zeek claim
136- TSPN votes faiere
143- Lowell enters [huzzah!]
144- TDC again opposes zeek claim, wants more from some players
146- TSPN agrees w/ TDC, calls claim request "fishing"
147- faerie claims he'd "think about [killing] if [zeek] claimed vig" [slip, maybe?]
150- TSPN unvotes, looks for new targets
155- TSPN votes mafiassk
156- johoo unvotes, votes mafiassk as well, retains FOS on zeek [odd]

Note that this is a comprehensive summary of everything that happened so far in the game, which proves that Lowell has done his homework and actually read the whole thing before posting. Now, moving on:

A few things:

johoo looks like he was eager to find a different wagon, twice, but doesn't want to admit it. He had his vote on zeek, only to pull it while retaining an FOS. When he followed TSPN in voting mafiassk, he felt the need to stress his retaining of an FOS on zeek. This seems like pressing to me; covering his ass so no one can say "hey, what happened with your suspicion of zeek?"

The CaptCake wagon fizzled out for no reason. No comment, here, other than I'd just like to draw attention to it because I don't understand it.

greasy spot looks really terrible in posts 56 and 67. His rushing to point out that mafiassk's post defending iceman (62) could be scum protecting each other just seems too opportunistic. And way too obvious to be true. There's no way I can sanely read that passage and convince myself that mafiassk just came out and openly asked others not to vote for his scumpartner. I can, however, make a big deal of it if I'm just trying to make it look like it matters. Which is what I think Greasy is doing. It's possible mafiassk IS scum and defending a townie, but that doesn't strike me as all that likely either.

For some reason nano's post 113 gives me solid town vibes. I couldn't tell you why, other than I'm a sucker for WIFOM and doubt he'd be so brazen as to jump in with a fifth vote if he was scum.

I'm also getting solid town vibes from marmalade, both because he's seen some of the game the same way I have and because i particularly like 69 and 116.

Others I'm not sure of yet. For now I'm not feeling the mafiassk mini-wagon, so I'll unvote, vote Greasy Spot.

Here we have Lowell's evaluation of the game thus far, which proves that, not only has he READ the game, he has also THOUGHT about the game. That's great! Lowell also contributes regularly for the next couple of pages, and is very open about his suspicion of Greasy Spot. And then he melds into the cracks for the next few pages, and about 50 posts later, he pops in to say he won't be available for a few days. Jeez, I hope he doesn't just fade away like Nat did. Then the town gets into this whole argument about whether or not lynching mafiaSSK is a good idea... that's TSQ now, for reference. Here's what Lowell has to say about it:

he's sort of useless, someone remind me what the case against him is again?

What happened to that helpful guy we used to know? Now that mafia is on the chopping block, all that analysis seems to turn into an "I don't know what's going on" phase that runs through quite a few of his subsequent posts. Now, when reading this next quote, keep in mind that Lowell currently has his vote on me, and wants me dead:

I don't see the case on iceman, he seems pretty authentic to me. His posts don't look like role-fishing as much as just a wide net of stuff he's willing to talk about. It might not be USEFUL, but unless someone does something dumb in response, it shouldn't cause any great harm either.

That was page 13, ten whole pages ago, and obviously, a lot can change in ten pages. Let's look at the progression of how Lowell worked from not seeing a case on me to finding me a viable lynch candidate:

Iceman looks like he's starting to crack under the pressure, though I still have no idea what the Iceman case was.

This quote is from a time in the game where there were quite a few fingers being pointed at me - I was most heavily under suspicion. And without any sort of tangible explanation, without even a knowledge of WHY he SHOULD be suspicious of me, Lowell makes that strange comment.

Faerie- Is there anything new on zeek? Or is that actually just a "he's annoying" vote?

Here's what this says to me: Hi, I'm Lowell. I'm going to vote for whoever everyone else is voting for because that's the easiest way to appear as a member of the town and still kill them. I'll sway with the tides, and additionally, I'm not going to do any work to make up my mind, or at least, I'll make it seem that way. It's Zeek on the chopping block? Ok, sounds fine to me."

I'd be interesting in pursuing the nano case. But until we have a replacement, zeek's pushing of it looks a little strange.

"Oh, it's nano now? Sounds fine to me."

AND THEN:

The glorious entrance of The Status Quo! (Trumpets Sound), who replaces our friend MafiaSSK. TSQ posts an incredible amount of content, mostly in argument with TSQ or in support of a Zeek lynch.

Then we get this lame post from Lowell:

I'd be willing to lynch zeek to get this game moving. How many votes does he have?

"Oh, it's Zeek again? Jeez, I care so little about whether or not Zeek is town or scum that I'm not even going to bother looking at a VOTE COUNT and doing simple addition and subtraction to come to a conclusion, let alone do any real research. Oh, and here's my requisite bandwagon vote."

Still only 5? unvote, vote zeek.

So... Zeek was lynched shortly thereafter, with Greasy Spot stupidly placing that final vote before a claim (though as it turned out, the claim wouldn't have done much for Zeek, as he was vanilla). Everyone was pissed, myself included. I said: (post 438, for reference)

Grease you asshat. WTF. Now we know who to lynch day 2.

Everyone else expressed their disbelief/anger.

Here's a comment, quite similar to mine, that TSQ made 5 posts later:

So you're one of those players. We're lynching you tomorrow, and if you're not scum, I'm putting you on my mental shitlist of players never to associate with.

Keep those above quotations in mind, I will make mention of them shortly.

Here's what Lowell has to say about Greasy's hammer:

Some of this seems like crocodile tears to me. zeek has as good a chance as not to come up scum, so why the end of the world talk?

Essentially, I don't give a fuck. Scum know who's town and who isn't. I'm betting Lowell felt pretty satisfied with this outcome - he knew both his partners had survived the day. And at the dawn of day 2, in the midst of all this anger and frustration that Greasy had just hammered prematurely, LOWELL:

vote iceman.

For post 438. He seemed a little to eager to jump on someone for the hammer.

This is where you should refer back to the post where I say we should kill Grease, for a perfectly good reason, which is that Grease quickhammered Zeek. Everyone else was thinking along the same lines, and thus, a bandwagon formed. BUT: Lowell decided he wasn't even going to address Grease's hammer, and instead voted for me, seemingly entirely out of the blue, especially when you consider that TSQ said almost EXACTLY THE SAME THING, which Lowell also fails to address in his post. Strange...

And then Grease claims doc, and the wagon falls apart. Lowell says he hates doc claims. Then he votes for the claimed doc. Even now there is no solid reason not to believe the claim, a fact which I quickly realized when no one counter-claimed (thus, the change in my own thinking). But instead of changing Lowell's mind from "Hey, Grease is probably scum for that quickhammer" to "Grease might not be scum because he claimed doc, and his claim fits with what happened the night before since there was no kill", it changed Lowell's mind from "Iceman is scummy because he wanted to lynch the guy that jumped in out of nowhere and hammered before the claim" to "Grease is scummy because he claimed doc". There is REALLY. SOMETHING. WRONG WITH THAT.

unvote, vote GS. This claim reeks to me. I believe there's a doc, but I dont' believe its him. Letting him off the hook is only forcing the doc to reveal.

I'll still vote iceman, too, btw.

"Guys, I really think we should go back to GS - he might have claimed doc, and there hasn't been a CC, and it would be great if we could lynch the doc cause then I wouldn't have to use a NK on it... but I'm always up for whatever bandwagon happens to start rolling, and its starting to look like it might be Iceman..."

unvote, vote iceman.

Still don't like this, but if GS is lying I suppose we'll get him anyway.

And that's more or less where we are at now. He still hasn't given any sort of valid reason for his vote on me, let alone his vote on anyone else all game, really, other than that one post he made way back when. He doesn't care who we lynch as long as it's not one of his scum partners, he just wants townies dead. If I had another hour to kill I'd explain why I think TSQ is his partner but I'll have to save that for tomorrow or the next day... it'll strengthen the Lowell case as well but I'm out of time for now, enjoy.

[icemanE]

A, he is confirmed town

He is ALMOST CERTAINLY town, but by no means confirmed.

[icemanE]

EBWOP - TSQ = TSPN in:

mostly in argument with TSQ or in support of a Zeek lynch.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Okay, again, I don't like this. Asking people to claim "not doc" is basically the same as asking the doc to counterclaim. If GS is the doc, scum already know and this is pointless. If he's scum trying a gambit to take down a powerrole with him, then saying "not doc" from all sides pretty much limits the field.

Yep. I am asking the doc to counterclaim. If the doc does not counterclaim, they are fools. But if you are the doc and don't feel like claiming, say "not doc." I won't find it any more suspicious than I would find a days-later counterclaim already.

Anyway, I will gladly re-outline my case on iceman: Its pretty simple, really.

When we were pressuring mafiassk for lurking, iceman acted as though mafiassk was really scummy. When mafiassk was getting replaced, though, iceman, while still saying mafiassk was scummy, said it was scummy for me to "say I wanted him lynched and then pull a 180" (I paraphrase). In reality, I had always been pretty upfront about the nature of the wagon (lurker pursuit), and shortly after saying he was almost sure mafiassk was scum, he was accusing me of being scum for no longer thinking the player he thought was scum was scum, which makes a certain amount of sense, until you realize that

if he really thought mafiassk was scum, he'd still be voting for him.

And certainly nothing day 2 has convinced me otherwise.

[Greasy Spot]

@ Iceman: Tremendous post dude. Very good thought out notes in there. I was already suspicious of Lowell as I have mentioned a couple of times earlier. I will

vote: Lowell

with you if try this hard for TheStatusQuo tomorrow.

[Greasy Spot]

Incase it matters to the Mod

unvote
vote: Lowell

[Lowell]

A few things re: iceman's "case"

1) First off, the doc claim IS scummy, because it is almost certainly something a caught scum would claim. So his claiming doc doesn't do anything for me. IF he's the real doc, he'll turn up dead anyway and it won't matter. However, if he's not, the whole point is to try to out the real doc, which is dumb.

If you're saying you want to not kill him because he could be telling the truth, that's fine. But if he's scum, and the real doc is outed, that's a free (unnecessary) power role given, as it will become clear later on that he's lying anyway.

That said, I'm claiming not doc.

2) I tend to make longer posts every so often, then try to go back and catch up. It's not that unusual for me to forget shit between them. But whatever, criticism accepted.

3) I found the twilight events scummy as hell, by several people. I picked you because I thought yours was the worst. Most people were happy with the zeek lynch and waiting to see what happened, and a few (you, most notably) started apologizing for it before anything was revealed. You (and TSQ) were setting up the next lynch before the day even started. After GS claimed doc, you immediately shifted gears and tried to show your good side. It's as good evidence for GS actually BEING the doc as I've seen.

[Thestatusquo]

Lowell, the point is that we have proof a doc exists (last night) so if we get a counterclaim, we have caught scum.

[icemanE]

IF he's the real doc, he'll turn up dead anyway and it won't matter.

Right, but why in god's name would we lynch him just because he's going to die at night anyways? That's a complete waste of a lynch, and gives scum an extra kill. What TSQ said directly above me is right.

(you, most notably) started apologizing for it before anything was revealed.

Who apologized, and for what? I wanted to kill Zeek as much as anybody but I wanted him to claim first, duh.

After GS claimed doc, you immediately shifted gears and tried to show your good side.

Also, that's false. I was very skeptical initially, till Faerie said something that made me sit down and think about it, and I realized I was wrong to doubt the claim without a counter-claim, which still doesn't exist.

It's as good evidence for GS actually BEING the doc as I've seen.

...And yet, you still don't believe him...

[Johoohno]

Lowell, the point is that we have proof a doc exists (last night) so if we get a counterclaim, we have caught scum.

You're stretching the truth here, but we do have a strong indication of it.

[Thestatusquo]

Lowell, the point is that we have proof a doc exists (last night) so if we get a counterclaim, we have caught scum.

You're stretching the truth here, but we do have a strong indication of it.

Right, obviously there are other scenarios which make last night possible, but the most likely (occhams razor) is that GS is telling the truth.

[Johoohno]

Also, I am not interested in voting GS (unless someone lurking comes back and counter-claim - then one of those two is probably lying), I am also pleased that he has come back to the game and would like to get a more extensive back read on the game by him.

[FaerieLord]

No.

There's probably something you're missing, and I don't feel like elaborating at the moment.

If you don't want to elaborate on either case, how do you expect us to think lowell is scum?

Also, why probably? You don't know the case you are throwing about?

Let me put it to you this way: as TSQ said, sometimes things are better left unsaid, in the town's interest. Continue to disregard what i have to say, if you feel so compelled.

Why are you quoting "certain scum" for what you say?

why don't you ask your buddy to outline his case on ME?

Where has lowell been voting you?

@Lowell Case: The only thing that really bugs me there, regarding lowell, is that he was inconsistent in what he was saying. He first wanted people not to go after Grease, but then suddenly wanted to go for Grease. Terribly inconsistent

because it is almost certainly something a caught scum would claim

Why? I always claim vanilla in a 12 player normal game where roles are revealed on death

started apologizing for it before anything was revealed.

I was the one hardest on the Zeek case and I'm not sorry for lynching him. If he plays with me like that again, I'll lynch him again. And again.

[Surye]

Replacing in for Marmalade, will be reading the game through the day, and posting tonight.

[Thestatusquo]

I agree with everything FL just said, minus the claim part, which I will keep in mind for future reference.

[Sudo_Nym]

Surye

is in for Marmalade,

Celebloki

is in for Captain Cake.