Mini #553: Over!

[Guardian]

Hello Guardian.

Damn, why do you have to be so logical? Anyways, other than Imat's poor case against me, and the poor timing of it, there was a comment he made I believe, basically saying that Coolbot was so protown, and he'd be angry if Coolbot turned up scum(this occurred shortly after he said Coolbot was shady). He also made a case for me being scum by stopping a nameclaim, admitted that the same case applied to Coolbot, and then said that he was convinced that Coolbot wasn't scum.

So you see Imat being scummy for

1. Having a poor case on you.
   
2. Saying Coolbot was really town
   
3. Being inconsistent on Coolbot, first being suspicious of him then saying he was town.
   
4. Being inconsistent in that he applied a case to you that you were suspicious, but not applying the same case to Coolbot and concluding that Coolbot was suspicious, and in fact saying Coolbot was town.

This may not be exactly what you mean, but it seems really close. If I've made a major substantive miscategorization or missed something, let me know.

Okay, let's go through this list.

1.

As ill conceived as I think cases on you were (seeing as I think you're the most confirmed town in the game), I don't think Imat was at all unique in being suspicious of you.

Matt_S[5]: massive, Khelvaster, Coolbot, Imat, Talitha

Imat wasn't at all unique in wrongly finding you suspicious. And, in fact, to his credit, was the first to unvote from the climax of your bandwagon, saying in post 191 he didn't want you at lynch -2. I think it isn't that probable that 2/5 of your wagon was scum who piled on together 3rd and 4th. We know Coolbot voted 3rd, you are saying you think Imat decided to wagon 4th on a townie with his buddy and then unvote once one more vote came? I don't see why that's plausible.

Like I was saying, he wasn't unique in being suspicious of you, and at least one other townie, Talitha, the cop, was suspicious of you. Unless there is more about how his case and reasons for being suspicious of you were bad, I don't think that point 1 is an at all reasonable point against him, seeing that there are (at least) three living players guilty of having been oddly suspicious of you.

2.

In post 151 he said Coolbot was probably town, since he carefully read Coolbot's posts up to that point, and didn't see any signs of scumminess. That's Coolbot's posts 0-8. Look at coolbot's posts 0-8. Ting=) caught on to scumminess there, but reading Coolbot's posts alone... really there is little reason to find Coolbot suspicious up to that point. Ting=) managed to see the shadiness in Coolbot's actions, but damn for me that is hard to see at that early stage, especially when you look at Coolbot's well explained reasoning. Imat said he re-read Coolbot in isolation and didn't find any signs of scumminess, and personally, I agree with him, there is very little that looks scummy from Coolbot in his posts 0-8 in isolation. So, I think I've also demonstrated how point 2 is invalid.

3.

Okay, again we are talking about 151 contrasted with 145.

CoolBot has show himself to be shady in this game, I don't know if he warrants a vote,

but his quick bandwagon hops do strike me as trying to get a quick lynch over with, perhaps anxious for the night to arrive.

However, I haven't been looking much at his posts

because I was paying more attention to Matt and Khel at the time.

I'll have to look at CB's posts specifically

.

Ah, finally got the chance to reread CoolBot's posts

. His recent posts do seem somewhat...Defensive, would be the proper word, though who wouldn't be when faced with several votes.

However, they are not as suspicious as I had first said because he hasn't tried to turn it around onto anybody else, he maintains his own innocence without trying to push blame onto the first person he sees

.

Also, rereading his "Bandwagon Hop," he didn't really hop. He had voted Khel originally for the same reason you all did, the Mass Claim. Then, after reading the copious amounts of evidence for and against the Mass Claim, he felt that it wasn't a good idea, but neither was it a scummy idea. When he decided this and then looked at how Matt agreed with this idea but then changed his vote with a rather wimpy excuse, he swapped to Matt, I believe only the second vote on the wagon and probably one of the few with any good reason.

CoolBot, you'd better not be Scum, cuz I just poured through your posts looking for any sign of scumminess and didn't find any. If you are scum, that'll look really bad for me.

Also, I reestablish my FoS: Matt_S, his actions all seem very scummy to me, perhaps too much so to just forget about.

The red and most of the bolding is my emphasis.

I don't think Imat is being contradictory or suspicious here whatsoever.

He first sees what Ting =) was saying about bandwagon hopping, but upon closer inspection of Coolbot's posts, he sees that Coolbot justified his bandwagon hopping well, and that even though the hopping was there, there isn't much justification for thinking Coolbot is scum, not nearly so much as he thought. He admits that if he is wrong he'll look suspicious because of his change in position, and that's something a self conscious townie is apt to do.

I think Imat had good reason to change his stance on Coolbot, and explained it well, and was certainly not being inconsistent. This, to me, refutes point 3 as well.

4.

In post 454 Imat posts a long post by post where he analyzes you Matt_S and comes to the conclusion that you are likely scum again. I think his analysis was bad, but many were analyzing you wrongly at that time in the game, so him analyzing wrong isn't enough for him to stand out as vote-worthy. I tried reading through his posts to find where he admits that his case applies to Coolbot as well, and I missed it.

So I don't see what you are saying in post 4. Until you can direct me to where he does this, I don't think point 4 is valid.

Summary:

I think I've clearly refuted points 1-3, and I don't understand point 4, so I can't evaluate its worth. Unless point 4 is really, really damning, I really am not seeing any good reason to be voting Imat coming from you Matt_S.

Is there something I'm missing?

You make good points on everyone else, but I think there's a lot going against you.

Well, if I make good points, don't you think I might be right?

As I've tried to show above, I disagree that there is much against Imat, and there is literally nothing against Shamrock or Zyrconium.

Even if you disagree with me about Imat, there's a point at which you have to wonder if Imat just played badly, and start analyzing my play.

Was Imat really scummier than Qman and Sethaniel? Not nearly, in my opinion.

In any event, I'll now try to respond to B&B's post.

[Guardian]

Qman could have easily asked for his original pm. You assumed

Oh yeah, I assumed the mod wasn't an idiot, maybe a bad decision with the previous mod.

That is what I did when I replaced in.

You

probably won't ever get the origonal pm and it really sucks for you. (non sarcasm)

!!That's ridiculous. Shakaa keeps looking worse and worse in my eyes as a mod. MeMe told him specifically to REMOVE the flavor from the game as much as possible. That DOES NOT include giving the original PMs to the players, even if the players ask.

Like I said, I assumed the mod was competent, perhaps wrongly.

It doesn't really suck for me that much though. If I am a townie, it isn't like me knowing the phrasing can confirm me, since that is common knowledge at this point. If I am a power role, there may be a strong idea of what character my role corresponds to. Anyways, shakaa definitely SHOULD not have given Qman the role PM, and even if he would have, I doubt that Qman even asked for it, based on how much he wanted to avoid LOTR role PM discussion.

What am I missing?

I can't dwell on this any longer because you being misinformed might mean the mafia are misinformed as well* which would be a great thing for town.


*I'm not even saying you have to be mafia here. If one person is confused, there's a chance another person is confused. So, even if you're not mafia, I don't want to explain any further because doing so would help mafia more than it would help town at this point.

Yeah, I get what you are saying.

Talitha, even if you have them, please do not give the mafia, or town, any more copies of the original role PMS

.

That's against the spirit of removing the theme from the game entirely.

On to your long post...

[Matt_S]

The thing about Imat's case against me is that he made it on day 2, and based it on lots of things I said on day 1 which he never saw any problems with.

If only the cop and serial killer weren't dead yet, then I could catch you in the act. I'm tempted to give you a shot at Sethaniel, but I'm not sure you being right will change my opinion too much.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

If only the cop and serial killer weren't dead yet, then I could catch you in the act. I'm tempted to give you a shot at Sethaniel, but I'm not sure you

being right

will change my opinion too much.

QFT*

You [Guardian] do provide a good defense for yourself. I need to step back and think about this for a while. I especially need to see how Sethaniel responds to you. Questions will probably come in a couple days.

Also, just thinking of the game, I still want to direct a vig (if we have one) kill. I was in the minority before, but I wonder what you think, Guardian?



*except for the being right part. What did you say Matt? Do you mean that if he's right he

still

can't change your mind? I really didn't understand the part I crossed out.

[Guardian]

I'm posting this so Shamrock might have stuff to respond to. I'm not confident in a lynch based on a predecessor's actions at all. Khelv wanted me to justify my vote, so here is why I think Imat was one of the scummier players in this game.

Fair enough.

I read somewhere in reading the thread that you are used to dumb players playing in newbie games and their replacements getting mislynched... that happens in mini games, and large games too. If I get lynched, that's what would be happening here. I think you are wiser than you self-evaluate to be cautious of lynching an Imat replacement.

Post 0

As it stands I haven't really seen scummy behavior, at least, nothing that guarantees scum, from any of the players. [...] I need further evidence, particularly from those who aren't posting, before deciding.

Right off the bat Imat doesn't scum-hunt. He makes sure to ask others to cast their suspicions, waiting to follow a good case. The part I put [...] is him talking about theory. He doesn't like bandwagons, aparrently.

Okay, I don't think this is a point against Imat. Some players read the last few posts of a game, respond to that, and then do a full re-read. I've done that myself sometimes when I don't have time to fully read immediately upon replacing. Not sure why "him not scum hunting right off the bat" is bad.

Post 1-2

he accuses Matt_S, then he realizes he made a mistake, and un-accuses him. Notice how he doesn't mention the whole vanilla claim thing about Matt_S in his accusations. Also notice how he is careful not to vote here.

Cautious = scum, when Matt_S has few votes? Why?
He had his facts wrong, was corrected, and admitted he was wrong. If anything that's town behavior.

Post 3-4

This has been quoted. Imat decides Destructor might be a little bit scummy, and then he reads Desctructor and decides he is not scummy, saying
"CoolBot, you'd better not be Scum, cuz I just poured through your posts looking for any sign of scumminess and didn't find any. If you are scum, that'll look really bad for me. "

Huh? You mean Coolbot, not destructor, right? In any event, I think I responded this in replying to Matt_S, in post 600. I think Imat was OK here in doing this.

Post 4-11

Imat decides now that Matt_S is scummy (still not taking into account the whole vanilla thing) and votes him... and then unvotes him claiming that Matt_S has too many votes for too little discussion. It really really reads like Imat is trying too hard to be town. I personally don't think L-2 is that dangerous of a place to be, but maybe this is a more personal thing.

(Imat also defends coolbot several times in posts 4-10, but I'm going to put all of the defending of coolbot in a separate section of this post.)

This grouping of posts is a bit all-encompassing/awkward, and misses some details.

Substantively though, really, I agree with most of what you are saying here. This is the part I was saying in that Imat was dumb not to take Matt_S claiming vanilla into account, but a lot of players were dumb in this, including Khelvaster, who I think is likely a town power role, and Talitha, our mod and ex-cop. I don't see why Imat is getting all this blame when obviously a confirmed dead townie made the same mistake, and so did some alive townies (unless Khel & massive are both scum).

Lynch-2 is a much less safe place in mini games than in Newbie games, because in Newbie games there is a much stronger opposition to placing people at lynch -1. In mini games, scum can often get away with ly-1 votes easily, forcing a claim often, or a lynch. I think it is a point in Imat's favor that he unvoted, not a point against him.

post 12

a pitiful attempt to look pro-town. He basically mirrors what has been said before. He does put some suspicion on coolbot; however, you have to take in mind that this is in a post where he accuses much other people, and he also defends CB a whole lot more previously.

"pitiful attempt to look pro-town"????

I think Imat's analysis is clumsy, but he is trying to do analysis on all the players. What is suspicious about this post??? Even if he is agreeing with others, he is going on record as agreeing with certain stances, something scum are not happy doing often.

The less trusting for CB is another point in his favor.

Imat for me mainly looked slightly suspicious in that his attack on Matt_S was dumb, but I really am befuddled as to how this particular post is suspicious.

post 13-17

are a series of very weak posts. They are all 3 lines or under and really don't do much for the town.

Qman is much, much, more guilty of what you are describing here, so much so that it is a categorization of his play, and THAT is suspicious. Even if Imat did this for a few posts, that's fine, not every post that someone makes is a winner. It only gets suspicious when it is an overarching trend.

Furthermore, I think you are overgrouping here, in that some of these posts ARE useful.. Post 14 for example, he asks for ting=) to explain the ejlicko case, because Imat didn't see it (and unlike some other players, didn't end up helping mislynch a townie).

post 18-19

I will give Imat this. It's a case against Talitha. That seems like a pro-town thing to do.

I'm going to look over the case now to make sure.
OMG I re-read it (I admittedly didn't pay much attention on my first read-through, which is why I said "I don’t find anything to comment about it"). This is an incredibly disappointing case. The majority of the points don't follow through. (for instance, Imat makes a claim, then doesn't take into account a later post by Talitha that explains what she was doing and why Imat's claim doesn't make sesne). I think it would be a HUGE waste of my time to write up a post about how bad this case is, but I'll just reccomend that if you (the reader) think I'm scum and don't believe, re-read the case and go to all the posts that Imat cites. It's a horrid case.
We also know now that Talitha was being carefully because she was the detective.
Damn, I wish we still had a detective.

I agree with you.

But his case was just bad; not all mafia players are awesome. He didn't push Talitha to a lynch, or a claim, just attacked her badly. Why is that so suspicious?

post 20-23

only him reacting to the deaths. Seems to think there isn't a vig. Being optimistic maybe? Nah that's too much of a stetch for me. I think the fact that he discounts there being a vig isn't too much of a tell, though I remember earlier thinking different.

Yeah.

post 24-25

Him saying he's been inactive.

Yup.

post 26-29

is Imat making a case against Matt_S. In these he pretty much misinterprets the initial events of the game. Game post 454, and his post 28 is honestly something I'm not going to look at entirely. I glanced over it but I didn't follow the post numbers. I just don't have time. Instead, I just checked Matt_S's responses on game post 460, which does a pretty good job of shooting the attack down, I think. Again, I haven't completely scrutinized this, so if someone believes that this is an awesome case, let me know.

No, this case sucks too. Imat made bad cases.

I think the distinction to take note of here is that he didn't push crap logic cases that he KNEW were bad, he just wasn't very good at figuring out who scum were, and made bad cases.

I see no reason to believe Imat had MALICE in making his cases, only bad judgement.

post 30

This is the type of thing you usually one see with time travel. So Shamrock attacked Imat, who is Shamrock? Wow... Anyway, I don't have time to look over to see which one wins this debate right now, but maybe later. Anyway, that's his last post.

Note that Imat, even, makes some pretty good defenses of Shamrock's post.

Sethaniel brings up Shamrock's post as a great reason to lynch Imat... and even Imat refuted some of the biggest parts of it. Again minus points for Sethaniel.

Evidence of Imat defending coolbot:

I've convinced myself that Coolbot isn't Scum

(post 6)

I won't argue the CB vote anymore, if he wants to lurk he'll just look the worse for it, sticking my own neck out for some random player doesn't strike me as a good move anymore. However, what I defended him on in the past still stands, so I personally won't vote for him unless I see something really scummy.

(post 8)

Then he mentions (SEVERAL TIMES: 9,11, 12, ect) that CB should give examples of pro-town people outside the fellowship. This TOTALLY asking CB to do this. He wants CB to do this so that people will believe his claim more.

Well, that's assuming he is scum. From my point of view he wants to evaluate CB... not sure why you think your point of view is more reasonable.

After post 12, as far as I saw, he complete ignores CB. Yeah. What!? Yeah.

I think he's made the evaluation that while CB is minorly suspicious, he is not at all interested in lynching CB. No reason for him to continue mentioning him.

I really don't like Imat's comments towards CB at all. I may need to re-read CB to uncover them better.

I strongly encourage you to do so, especially CB posts 0-8, the posts Imat had available to him when he said he thought CB was town. CB looked town up to then.

Also notice that he claims CB is pro-town because of the claiming issue, but doesn't do the same for Matt_S!?

Well, I think from his point of view (and if I recall correctly others did this too), he thought CB was pro-town because CB claimed information about his role PM FIRST. There is no parallel there, CB went first, Matt_S second. Now, I disagree with Imat's conclusions, but I can see how his logic made sense TO HIM.

If Imat hadn't been replaced, I would be pushing extremely hard for his lynch right now. The closer I look, the scummier he is.

Well, I think if you look even closer, he won't look as scummy.

I think all Imat is guilty of is:

• Making a bad case on Talitha
  
• Making a bad case on Matt_S
  
• Wrongly ignoring Matt_S's vanilla claim.
  
• Wrongly concluding that CB is likely town

While I think all of these involved bad logic on his part, I contend that NONE of them involved malice on his part, just bad judgment, and I don't think there have been any arguments to the contrary.

We can all agree Imat came to some wrong conclusions. Scum? I don't think that's a logical conclusion. I think a lot of what you say is correct, just you make a few key assumptions different than what I do to get you to the wrong conclusion.

[Matt_S]

*except for the being right part. What did you say Matt? Do you mean that if he's right he still can't change your mind? I really didn't understand the part I crossed out.

Well, when I was scum with Guardian, he tried to bus me. That game's been standing out in my mind. If Sethaniel does turn up scum, I'd consider busing a very real possibility.

[Guardian]

If only the cop and serial killer weren't dead yet, then I could catch you in the act. I'm tempted to give you a shot at Sethaniel, but I'm not sure you

being right

will change my opinion too much.

QFT*

You [Guardian] do provide a good defense for yourself. I need to step back and think about this for a while. I especially need to see how Sethaniel responds to you. Questions will probably come in a couple days.

Fair enough. You appear to be being reasonable.... TOO reasonable... lol

I hope you do give me a chance, because I think there's a strong possibility of me being right about Sethaniel, and 0% chance of me being scum :P.

Also, just thinking of the game, I still want to direct a vig (if we have one) kill. I was in the minority before, but I wonder what you think, Guardian?

I always have mixed feelings about directing vig kills. For me, it comes down to a few things.

1. If there is a way we can have the vigilante kill that would *guarantee* a win, then we direct the kill.
   
2. If the vigilante's claim is in doubt, then we maybe direct the kill.
   
3. If we think that the vigilante sucks/we as a town are better than the vigilante, then we maybe direct the kill.

I don't think 1 applies here.
I don't think 2 applies here either, whomever claims vigilante (and is un-countered) is the vigilante.
3 MAY apply. If the vigilante killed Coolbot OR vlad last night, which statistically is probable, I'd say they're doing pretty darn good on their own.

Considering this, I'd say there is absolutely no harm in SUGGESTING vigilante kills, and if the vigilante killed Talitha or thinks he got lucky in killing scum, he can go with the most popular opinion, but if he made a good kill last night or thinks he will tonight, there is no reason for him to be BOUND by what we suggest that he do.

The problem with directing vig kills is that just like votes, scum can try to influence the decision and get the vigilante to kill townies.

Having an independent vigilante means that a TOWN member is deciding who dies. It also means that since the scum don't know who the vigilante is going to kill, we might get lucky in that if the vigilante is going to kill a townsperson, the scum might kill the same one.

In sum, I think that offering suggestions for our vigilante is a good choice, but I don't think the vigilante should think he needs to be bound by our suggestions, or that we should be annoyed/suspicious of him if/when he claims if he didn't go with our suggestion.

*except for the being right part. What did you say Matt? Do you mean that if he's right he

still

can't change your mind? I really didn't understand the part I crossed out.

Yeah... Matt_S, if I am right about Sethaniel, you'll STILL be suspicious???

[Guardian]

*except for the being right part. What did you say Matt? Do you mean that if he's right he still can't change your mind? I really didn't understand the part I crossed out.

Well, when I was scum with Guardian, he tried to bus me. That game's been standing out in my mind. If Sethaniel does turn up scum, I'd consider busing a very real possibility.

I bus'd once... ergo I always bus? lol.

What game was that, anyways? I certainly remember playing with you, but games blend together.

In any event, if this is what you are thinking... even more reason to go with me and vote Sethaniel, because if I am town maybe I am right and Sethaniel is scum, and if I am scum then maybe I am bus-ing and Sethaniel is scum. :P

BTW everyone, feel free to make cases of your own... to me the strongest case certainly appears to be on Sethaniel, but if you think other players look more suspicious definitely bring that forward.

Today certainly isn't locked into "lynch Guardian OR Sethaniel, no other options." That is most definitely a false choice.

[Matt_S]

It was Mafia in Vollville. Your cases here remind me a lot of your cases there when you replaced in. The only absence is the claim of serial killer

[Guardian]

Oh, yeah... lol, funny game.

I most certainly am not going to claim Serial Killer here.

In addition, my cases when I am town will look similar to my cases here. My case making style varies as little as possible from town to scum... that's really the point . Just in vollville, my predecessor was obviously scum, and here, my predecessor wasn't scum.

[Matt_S]

After a quick ctrl+f, massive never really talked to CoolBot. He mentioned his name a lot(especially in regards to me), but never replied to any of his posts. Also interesting is that he random votes for CoolBot.

Unvote, Vote massive

. What's even more interesting is that massive also didn't talk to Imat on day 1. In other words, if massive turns up scum, look out Guardian.

[Talitha]

Vote Count

Guardian (2)

- BridgesAndBaloons, ting =)

Sethaniel (2)

- massive, Guardian

massive (2)

- destructor, Matt_S

Not voting:

Khelvaster, Sethanial,

8 alive means 5 votes to lynch.

Re: replacing Khelvaster. I had a player offer to replace in. He's picked up my PMs, but I haven't heard back from him apart from the original offer. I'll just give him a few more hours to confirm, because I have had another offer to replace in the meantime.

[massive]

The only reason I wasn't "talking to" other players is because of the ridiculousness of the level of scumminess you were putting out, Matt_S. And since the only thing that saved you was quoting your PM and having the mod decide to NOT modkill you for it, you may want to keep that in mind when going back and finding new ways to attack people.

As for my post 99: I reread it and stand by all of it. The logic behind defending Khelvaster is solid. Go back and re-read the first five pages, then read 99 again. Do you think (at that point) that Khelvaster is town with a bad plan, or Mafia with a vicious plot? And if you think he's Mafia, do you believe that the requirements for his plan (safe claims plus safe claims of his teammates in his PM) are true?

As to "confirming" CoolBot -- I've already said, I'm pretty sure numerous times, that I trusted CoolBot because he was hinting at a role combination (town, non-Fellowship) that had not been discussed in the thread and that I also had. Because it hadn't been mentioned AT ALL in the thread, I assumed he had to be like me. I was completely amazed that he was scum and I think it will be interesting to see who shot him (and why) at the end of the game.

[Matt_S]

1. You never said day 1 that you trusted CoolBot, unless you referred to him by something other than coolbot which my ctrl+f didn't find. You really only ever mentioned CoolBot when attacking me. No mention of trust or anything. You still talked about eljcko, ting, destructor, and others at some point in the day.
2. I never quoted my pm, and the mod never confirmed me.
3. I never mentioned Khelvaster, so I don't know if that's supposed to be directed at me.

[Sethaniel]

]
I trusted CoolBot because he was hinting at a role combination (town, non-Fellowship) that had not been discussed in the thread and that I also had. Because it hadn't been mentioned AT ALL in the thread, I assumed he had to be like me

What about posts 8-13?

Khel suggest mass nameclaim, and Matt immediately suspects Khel of being either scum or a power role. Matt says "Did I get a different PM than everyone else? It's obvious to me that mass nameclaim will get the pro-town power roles killed."

That sure looks to me like Matt's talking about vanilla townies. In fact, I thought he was pretty much softclaiming vanilla townie right there. I don't see how massive can say that the posibility of pro-town non-Fellowship members hadn't been mentioned "AT ALL" in the thread.

vote: massive

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Guardian: basically your defense boils down to Imat being a bad player in this game? Is that correct?

Limited access for the next 9 days

finals are coming up.

[Talitha]

Empking replaces Khelvaster

I believe that is the replacements all sorted. *crosses fingers*

[Guardian]

Guardian: basically your defense boils down to Imat being a bad player in this game? Is that correct?

I'd say that's far too basic, so no.

Some of his actions are explained in part as him being a bad player. His logic is bad, but none of the bad logic appears to have malice behind it. Bad players can sometimes be even more prone to showing they have malice; I don't think Imat had any tendencies in that direction.

Also, some of his actions just make sense, and I'm not sure why he was about to be put at lynch -1 for those actions.

[destructor]

I believe that is the replacements all sorted. *crosses fingers*

If that was with me in mind, no I don't intend to flake!

Sorry guys, I'll be making some time for this in the next few days. I notice that the Imat/Guardian wagon seems to have dissolved some and massive is now at L-2. Feeling slightly out of the loop, I'm going to

Unvote

until I've caught up.

[Empking]

Does anyone have any questions?

[Guardian]

What do you think of Sethaniel and massive?

Who are your main suspects?

[massive]

Sethaniel

: I am talking about NAMED pro-town non-Fellowship roles. Maybe I did not make that clear in that particular post, but I'm pretty sure I have in numerous other places in this thread.

[Sethaniel]

Well, since I never got to read Qman's original PM, I don't know what my role was called.

I think this is probably why Qman got frustrated with the whole massnameclaim issue: he/I couldn't really participate, since we don't know what we were originally called. The role PM I got was essentially two words long, and one of those is an article.

I'm still happy voting massive.

[Empking]

I wasn't feeling great yesterday but I'm going to try and read up on this tonight.

[Matt_S]

I honestly think the vig fishing alone makes massive a good target. The interaction with CoolBot is just circumstantial icing on the scumcake.