Newbie 588 - Game Over!

[The World No.1 Noob]

what's someone's alt? It wasn't a complex diagram, It was just a spider diagram basically, I start by writing everyone's name in a circle, and I draw an arrow between 2 players every time they interact, different colours can suggest what type of interaction ( think I used red for attack and blue for support), the way the arrow points tells which person did the attack or support.

Official Vote Count

Abstract Actuary - 1 (goborage)

Artem - 2 (Claus, springlullaby)

The World No.1 Noob - 1 (strappado)

Not Voting - 4 (Abstract Actuary, Artem, Mokina, The World No.1 Noob)

5 to Lynch (3 at deadline on June 21).

[Mokina]

its when you vote and that vote makes the votes on a person go over 50% of the people playing right?

More accurately, it's a vote that causes someone to be lynched.

what's someone's alt?

That would be... when your account is actually an "alternate" persona created by an existing player to prevent others from learning more about them via meta, look clueless, etc. Some people consider it a cheap move.

[The World No.1 Noob]

I am not an alt

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Artem replaces Grum.

As stated, deadline is set for Saturday, June 21st.

[Mokina]

I am not an alt

I think we assume you aren't an alt unless proven otherwise. Don't worry. =)

[Artem]

Artem replaces Grum.

As stated, deadline is set for Saturday, June 21st.

Confirming the replacement of Grum.

Working my way through the game history, but don't let this get you into "I have nothing to say. Waiting to see what Artem posts" mentality.

[Artem]

My God, all I can say right now is that reading 'lol'-punctuated posts is an absolute nightmare. Half-way through. Hoping to make a post with some content later tonight.

[The World No.1 Noob]

O yes and to the first part of Gobo's post which I seem to have missed out,

Is this a real question? So far we as town have been using the newbie card to defend #1noob. But it's been around two months and I think it's starting to wear a bit thin.

Gobo, I think the word "newbie" is used too much and therefore has changed meanings it means new at something, not necessarily bad at something. You and I were both "newbie" at the beginning of this game, we've both grown, but in different ways. You've been playing multiple games, reading wikis and learning fancy jargon. I've just been playing this one game, I don't know all the Jargons and I really don't have time to go memorize all of them. So yes I'm still newbie as in "new" to this game, but that doesn't interfere with my reasoning ability, when I ask a question its so it can help me with my decision making. Honestly how does me ask if my vote would be a hammer harm the town in any way?

[Artem]

Well.... I've actually read the entire thing in more or less one sitting. I am not going to post a summary or notes. Instead, I am going come out of left field and propose a new case while all the information is still fresh in my mind.

Case: The World No. 1 Noob and camisade / Spring Lullaby are mafia.

Let's start by taking a looking at the Day 1 lynch bandwagon order, which was conveniently quoted by Mokina:

"Mafiamurkrow - 5 (rolandofthewhite, goborage, Grum, camisade, The World No.1 Noob)"

Now, we've all been trained that placing the last two votes on a bandwagon (i..e quicklynching) is bad play as mafia. As a result, we generally ignore those two votes and go about our day, arguing that "somebody has to hammer".

So, why am I not happy with simply moving on? What is it about camisade and #1 noob that catches my attention?

Turns out, I have quite a bit of evidence on both, but I will post the most formidable ones.

camisade:
Camisade argues that he is happy with his lynch vote because MM exhibited anti-town behavior and that somebody should not really sign up for a game unless they plan to invest their time into it. Now, anti-town players are easy prey for mafia NKs since they reveal the least amount of information possible (especially at Night 1). So, a better play for town on Day 1 would be to continue discussion and decide on a lynch that would reveal the most information possible, and leave the anti-town player for mafia to clean up.

My issue with Camisade is that, as an IC, he should realize this. Yet, that didn't stop him from putting MM at L-2, making a 'lol' post on Day 2 and then disappearing.

Let's take a look at the replacement, springlullaby:

Hi everyone
*Waves at Claus and Mokina*

1) I do not endorse a Goborage lynch today, he reads town.

2) I think a Grum lynch is a weak lynch, as his alignement is totally crapshot at this point. Dave fall into the same category to a lesser extent, as his non vote day one is a little more suspicious.

3)

FOS AA

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 80#1036180
I don't like the questions at the bottom of that post, they are numerous but also quite confusing, and more importantly, AA doesn't seem to show actual interest in the answers he got. I think it's highly probable AA is just throwing up questions out there to look town.

Plus, in regard to his last post, I highly doubt that a town IC would come to the conclusion that Grum and Dave are scum together.

In fact

Unvote, Vote: Abstract Actuary.

"Well, camisade certainly didn't leave us with much to work with. Well, let's befriend a townie. That would be a good start." Sure would. Gobo lightened up not a post later. (At this point we have a little AA vs. Gobo + SL rivarly going.)

Moving on:

@Claus: Strong newbie read is crapshot read in my books. But actually, you're right, putting his posts in isolation, he seems to go for the newbie card really hard. On the other hand, I'm not sure if trying to outguess people's true level of newbieness is a good idea.

I think Dave's non vote is suspicious because I think non votes are always suspicious, letting the town do the work is a big scum temptation.

@AA: Because of this being a newbie game, I would expect a 1 IC scum+ 1 newbie scum mafia group. However, upon reread I no longer find you suspicious, your tendency to talk without voting put aside, you are actually pretty consistent in your style and in your train of thoughts.

I still think goborage is town because he sounds like town, and the case on him by association is weak to my eyes - would I try to give direction to my obvsnewb scum partner in a newbie game? I think not.

Unvote

That said, I now feel that a Grum lynch is worth a shot, plus that quitting doesn't look good at all.

Vote: Grum

"Well, crap. My first plan didn't work. Let's see here..... why don't we jump on the biggest bandwagon there is." WIFOM? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Both moves make sense if you're replacing scum. Since there is no real pressure on you, befriending a townie and hopping on bandwagon for the most suspicious person before it gets too big should really be your first two priorities.

--------------------------------------

Now we get to #1 Noob. As many of you pointed out, the play is VERY inconsistent. Imagine that you wanted to "accidentally" quick-hammer somebody. Suppose you pick the most newbish-sounding name you can come up with. Suppose further, that you decide that you have no idea what any of the acronyms mean. Could you get away with a quick-hammer?

Make no mistake here. #1 Noob is no idiot. So far, the play is brilliant: he went from quick-hammering a townie (one that should really be left to scum to clean up) to being viewed as town by the vast majority of players.

So, what is it that gives off a bad vibe then you ask? Well....

1. He "accidentally" claims vanilla town, even though Cat Killer did the same thing just one page before him. Furthermore, it was explained to Cat Killer that saying "I'm not scum" gets you nowhere. So, why repeat Cat Killer's mistake?

2. His immediate defense was "o, sry", but when the dust settled he decided to go with something more appropriate: "CAMISADE's arguments sounded convincing to me". Really? They did?

3. His consistent but subtle siding with SL in the spirit of:

SL:

I kinda agree with post 339, A.A's posts seem to draw at straws, really random can't even remember the post he made that you gave the link to but his recent post, post 330, is really grabbing thin air as well. However I do think voting for him straight away is a bit hasty. You've also set a very good relationship with gobo, he wasn't in any danger of getting lynched, nobody's was suspicous of him (well at least I'm not) so....

4. His continuous fall-back to "Oh yea, I keep forgetting: I'm a noob". Notice how in the last two pages he realizes that he was never told what a hammer was so he brings it up again. Moreover, this realization occurred as soon as Gobo pointed out the inconsistency in the behavior.

5. So, you say: well, it's just a bright-eyed new player who learns as he goes and learns well. Let's take a look at the very first thing #1noob posted:

lol i didn't disappear, im just watching XD, the mafias know who each other are right? cos some ppl have been cooperating with each other quite well

Cooperation. #1noob certainly understands how this game works and what things to look for. Maybe, he's not that much of a noob as he's making it out to be?

Then again, why bring up cooperation this early in the game? Could it be because you are currently thinking: "Boy, wouldn't it be nice to communicate to my buddy right now?"


So there you have it. This is my case which is based on a fresh read of the entire game.

As far as defense for Grum's behavior.... well... you know I would pull this one but.... the emotional outbursts is not something I would have made, so it's very hard for me to justify them. However, I would like to point out that being newb-scum is not the only reason for certain newb behavior. Sometimes, you have to think outside the box, but that is all I'm going to say along those lines for now.



I would like to hear the opinions on my strategy. If you would like to see specific quotes or more evidence, I can provide them.

As far as who should we lynch first..... Throughout my read #1noob was really giving me the scum vibe but the recent posts by SL are somewhat stealing the mafia thunder from him. I suspect the two at about the same level right now.

[Claus]

Hey guys. I'm going on a trip wednesday morning, I'll be back from the trip on friday night, but will have limited access during the week - so you'll probably only see me around again next monday. To compensate, I'll try to make a substantive post now.

[The World No.1 Noob]

Now, anti-town players are easy prey for mafia NKs since they reveal the least amount of information possible

I disagree with this, why would a mafia kill of someone they could potentially use as a scapegoat during the day?

Suppose you pick the most newbish-sounding name you can come up with

I use this name, or a version of it for any game I play, I'm "killerno.1noob" in Warcraft 3, World No.1 Noob in Tribal Wars, etc, etc. I have to admit, I did originally come up with it to give the deception to everyone to make them think I'm noob to put them off guard, but over time its just become my game name.

His consistent but subtle siding with SL

Huh? did you read my post? how was that siding with him? I was accusing him of buddying with gobo

Cooperation. #1noob certainly understands how this game works and what things to look for

As I said, I'm new, not an idiot.

[Artem]

Interesting.

And what does SL have to say about this case?

[Artem]

Now, anti-town players are easy prey for mafia NKs since they reveal the least amount of information possible

I disagree with this, why would a mafia kill of someone they could potentially use as a scapegoat during the day?

Is that what Camisade was doing?

Really though, night-kills aimed at revealing as little information as possible are not that uncommon at the beginning of the game. Towards the end of the game, the mafia will probably focus on power roles or other players they deem dangerous.

[Claus]

Attention: Long post bellow. I would be happy if each player at least addressed the questions I make to them under the "questions" section.

=============

Post Analysis

AA:

(330)
- FoS'es Grum for a bunch of Newbie scum behavior.
- Town read on No1,
- Finds Goborage strange for not listing Grum in his top suspect list
- don't understand the Camisade attack.
- attacks Dave because there was no nightkill

In the end, he lists grum/dave as main suspects, goborage/camisade as secondary.

(345)
- Defends against SL's and Goborage's attacks. I find that this post was a reasonably
good defense.

(346)
- While I understand your point of view in this post, my experience is that when a newbie stubbornly focuses on only one player, specially an IC player, that is usually a newbie town tell .

(354)
- You are right. Blame my reading skills. (or your writing skills /hurt pride)
- "Who do you think Grum's partner could be, why?" - I'm not so sure. With the blatantly scummy play on Grum's part, I'd rather try to find the second scum on their own merits. If I had to pick one under gunpoint, I'd say Mokina (see my previous post).

- "Wait for the replacements before day 3." - If you think you have a valid scum read on someone, why not vote them? Players don't change alignment when they get replaced.

N.1 Newbie:

(332) You say you want to wait for Dave for "more info". More specifically, what kind of info do you wish to know?
(343) Good questions for camisade.
(352) That question was directed at Mokina, but okay.
(368) Attacks SL
(374) Attacks Goborage

Goborage

(340) Defends against the AA grum-goborage link. Weak.
- Says don't think grum is scum - I would like reasons, not because I think you're linked to him, but because I realy don't see how grum could NOT be scum

(364) Okay post.

(372) Comments on N.1.Noob inconsistency.
- My views: I think that he has been showing town tells so far. He seems to make and effort to question and answer posts, a level of scepticism, and a love of his own opinions that say town to me.

Yes, his _style_ is inconsistent. The "two people playing" is the same impression I had. But suppose you're right - two people decided to play on the same account - that would have nothing to do with his alignment - so it is a "Null Tell"

If you want to use someone's inconsistency as a scumhunting weapon, you should do it by listing inconsistent _positions_ during the game that would benefit scum, not inconsistent posting styles.

Mokina

(331) Uses one of AA's reasons to FoS Dave, and threatens him with a vote.
(333) More Dave pressuring. Claims that the replacement should explain dave's actions
(338) Backs down when I question her about 333
(341) Defends Goborage
(344) More Goborage cheering, and then suggests digging SL's posts for signs of scumhood.
(347) Says that we can get some information from a Dave Lynch, tries to push for it (after the mod said he was going to replace him).
(350) Unvotes when told that a replacement was being searched for.
(356) Accuses me of Dave/Grum flipflop - I responded this on 357.
(363) Says that the Grum wagon is dead, should not be ressurrected, that there is not enough evidence to lynch Grum, etc.
(376,379) answers game-related questions

SL

(339) Thinks that Gobo is town, Dave and Grum are bad lynches, Dave better than grum. Votes AA for 330.
(361) Removes her vote from AA, does not find him suspicious anymore after a re-read. Decides to agree with my case on Grum.

Strappado (Dave)

(359) Read up to page 5, picked some minor tells on N.1 and Cat Killer - meh.
(371)
- Hmmm. Her/Gobo's comment on AA's L-1 post is interesting. I find AA's response to gobo stranger than his L-1 post, though. Then she cites a link between AA and Grum.
- Find a problem with No1Noob lament. I don't quite agree.
- Complains about confusing reading/writing skills of Grum and Noob. I felt the same when I was reading Grum
- Seems to still be finishing her re-read.

Artem (Grum)

(383) - proposes a No1Newbie/Camisade-SL mafia pair.
- Says that Camisade's vote was bad because town should leave scummy players alone for scum to NK (WTF??) - this is complete craplogic. Scummy players should be lynched, period.
- Attacks springlullaby by repeating what No1Noob and Mokina said before

"Well, crap. My first plan didn't work. Let's see here..... why don't we jump on the biggest bandwagon there is." WIFOM? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Is this even an argument???? "Wifom - perhaps, perhaps not". This is OMGUS.

Imagine that you wanted to "accidentally" quick-hammer somebody. Suppose you pick the most newbish-sounding name you can come up with. Suppose further, that you decide that you have no idea what any of the acronyms mean. Could you get away with a quick-hammer?

This accusation is INCREDIBLY in bad faith - are you seriously suggesting that No1Noob picked his username knowing that he would be scum in this game?????

His 1.2.3.4.5 is the first time I see an emotionally based attack. There is no substance, just "look at this post, it looks like it was made by a mastermind scum - so innocent, but possibly devilish!". ABR would love you, Artem.

So there you have it. This is my case which is based on a fresh read of the entire game.

Your case is based in bad logic: (IC should know that scum will NK scummy players) and (N1Noob inconsistent style and username means that he is scum pretending to be a newbie).

Finally, he defends himself with this:

Sometimes, you have to think outside the box, but that is all I'm going to say along those lines for now.

In other words, he stops just short of claiming to be a power role. This seems really underhanded to me.

Really though, night-kills aimed at revealing as little information as possible are not that uncommon at the beginning of the game. Towards the end of the game, the mafia will probably focus on power roles or other players they deem dangerous.

No, really. You are wrong. Each player has a different ways of seeing nightkills, but nightkilling the most likely lynch target is dumb play for mafia. I really don't like how you are using this as an excuse not to lynch players who display scummy behavior. By your logic, you should not lynch either SL or N1Noob, since they are the most scummy players to you.

===

Questions:

AA:
- Dave and Grum got replaced. Can you answer the voting question now?

N1Noob:
- Am I correct to say that you seem to suspect Goborage and SL most? If not, who do you suspect most?
- What do you think of Grum? Do you think he is scummy or town? Why?
- Do you have any reason not to vote the person who is most likely to be scum?

Goborage:
- Why do you think Grum is town?
- Are there any other players you suspect now, besides AA?

Mokina:
- What do you think of my Grum case. You say there is no evidence, but I have cited posts that support my accusations. I would like you to point out where I'm wrong about grum.
- Who do you think is actually suspicious? You have supported a lot of other people's suspicions, but you haven't put any from yourself recently, other than the Dave lurkerlynch.
- You suggested we should read Camisade's posts because SL was scummy. Did you do that? what did you find?

Atrem:
- Are you 100% sure that Camisade and No1Noob are the scum? what about the other players? What made you think that they're not scum?
- Of the above, who do you want to lynch first, and why?

====

Comments:

- Artem's entrance just reinforce my idea that Grum was scum. I'm really happy with my vote, and would like others to consider it as well.

- I don't like the way that Mokina seems to cheer on any suspicions without picking them up for herself. Has defended Grum pretty heavily but doesn't seem to have reasons for that. But tried to push a Dave lynch with little more than "lurking", which I find contradictory. I find Mokina scummy, and would be my second choice of a lynch at this moment, but given what I know of Mokina's playstyle, I still favor a Grum lynch.

- SL has been quiet, which has drawn the ire of quite a few people. Like Mokina, that is her style, though, she tends to post little. What I have seen so far from SL plays as a Null tell for me.

- The attacks on AA are not without merit.

- Lots of player are not voting. I would like to see the non-voting players either vote, or justify why they are not voting yet.

[The World No.1 Noob]

You say you want to wait for Dave for "more info". More specifically, what kind of info do you wish to know?

Well virtually anything would be good, why he wasn't posting (this problem is now sorted), what his thoughts are apart from him attacking me because I hammered etc.

- Am I correct to say that you seem to suspect Goborage and SL most? If not, who do you suspect most?

no, no, SL yes, not Goborage though. I might as well post a suspicions list:

SL: I've already talked about him plenty

Dave was pretty high in my suspicions but his replacement seems to be acting normally, maybe it was just Dave the guy.

Grum was weird but I don't think he was actually scum...I just think he was a bit childish, he's replacement does make him look more scummy but the question I'm trying to decide on is: did grum think he was in that bad of a position and childish (like sore-loser/don't wanna get lynched) enough to just quit as a mafia? I mean for a personality like his he'd only quit if his role wasn't that important anyway right? I really can't decide which way the balance swings on that one.

AA: I don't like the way you reason, they're logical (sort of) but they really grab at thin air, they're really theoryish. They can be good if we have absolutely nothing to work with but we have a lot to work with, (more than I can handle to be honest), its sorta like going for a pawn instead of the checkmate, does anyone understand me? I'm having trouble expressing myself today. I'll repost if I get a break through on how to word what I'm trying to say.

[The World No.1 Noob]

- Do you have any reason not to vote the person who is most likely to be scum?

of course I wouldn't hesitate if I thought I knew who's the scum, but I don't yet know how sure I have to be before I make a vote.

[Claus]

but I don't yet know how sure I have to be before I make a vote.

Is this an "Question to the ICs", or are you just saying that you're not sure enough to vote for anyone?

[Artem]

Scummy players should be lynched, period.

Agreed. But MM was a bad player, not a scummy player. There's a difference. Being a bad player makes you an easy target for mafia, who can just say "You're lack of posting/defending is anti-town".

- I don't like the way that Mokina seems to cheer on any suspicions without picking them up for herself. Has defended Grum pretty heavily but doesn't seem to have reasons for that. But tried to push a Dave lynch with little more than "lurking", which I find contradictory. I find Mokina scummy, and would be my second choice of a lynch at this moment, but given what I know of Mokina's playstyle, I still favor a Grum lynch.

- SL has been quiet, which has drawn the ire of quite a few people. Like Mokina, that is her style, though, she tends to post little. What I have seen so far from SL plays as a Null tell for me.

Are you suggesting that being consistent with previous playstyle is related to the player's alignment?

- Are you 100% sure that Camisade and No1Noob are the scum? what about the other players? What made you think that they're not scum?
- Of the above, who do you want to lynch first, and why?

Not at all. I actually have nothing on #1noob besides the quick hammer. I admit that my other arguments are far-stretched. But it's not my theory that's interesting but other players' responses. If somebody jumps on a bandwagon that is based on weak points, then it becomes very interesting.

Based on what I've seen from Camisade and SL, I am actually more inclined to vote for SL. Reason: attacking an easy prey and utilizing newbie players, such as #1noob, to follow up with a vote.

- Lots of player are not voting. I would like to see the non-voting players either vote, or justify why they are not voting yet.

Fair enough.

Vote: spring lullaby

I think the player deserves some pressure, given how little they post.

[Artem]

Sometimes, you have to think outside the box, but that is all I'm going to say along those lines for now.

In other words, he stops just short of claiming to be a power role. This seems really underhanded to me.

Not necessarily. Have you considered the possibility of a new (and potentially young player) starting to panic when votes and suspicion begin to appear on them? Not knowing how to defend themselves the said new player begins to imitate what other town players are doing, including suspecting the current suspect and pretending they know how to scum hunt.

Again, I don't know what was going through Grum's head, so it's hard for me to justify his posts but I am pointing out that certain newbish behavior may stem from more than one reason.

[Mokina]

(331) Uses one of AA's reasons to FoS Dave, and threatens him with a vote.
(333) More Dave pressuring. Claims that the replacement should explain dave's actions
(338) Backs down when I question her about 333
(341) Defends Goborage
(344) More Goborage cheering, and then suggests digging SL's posts for signs of scumhood.
(347) Says that we can get some information from a Dave Lynch, tries to push for it (after the mod said he was going to replace him).
(350) Unvotes when told that a replacement was being searched for.
(356) Accuses me of Dave/Grum flipflop - I responded this on 357.
(363) Says that the Grum wagon is dead, should not be ressurrected, that there is not enough evidence to lynch Grum, etc.
(376,379) answers game-related questions

Gosh, way to strawman me.

I didn't "back down" in 338. I simply stated that while the replacement might not be able to provide an explanation, the original Dave was a very quiet type and suspicions would remain. I still worry about strappado, but she seems much more analytical than her predecessor, which comes across as much more protown. In 363, I didn't say the Grum wagon shouldn't be resurrected. I was just pointing out the (very true) fact that no new evidence has been brought into the Grum-scum case since it began, and that we might want to think about looking at his newer posts before we bring back the wagon.

The middle bit is true; I do perceive Goborage as a protown figure. SL was trying to ingratiate herself with him. I put two and two together, asked about it, and didn't get an answer. That's why I'm still waiting for something more from her; she failed to address my concerns when she posted 361. That post was used instead to join the Grum wagon, pushing for the lynch of someone with an already negative reputation but introducing no new evidence. Yuck.

Vote: SL

I'm a bit sick of the opportunism, really.

of course I wouldn't hesitate if I thought I knew who's the scum, but I don't yet know how sure I have to be before I make a vote.

Depends on how far the game has progressed, and whether you're just making an initial vote or hammering. Near the end of either, you have to be far more certain. Remember that for the town, talk is good... the more discussion you can generate, the better.

[Abstract Actuary]

Attention: Long post bellow. I would be happy if each player at least addressed the questions I make to them under the "questions" section.

=============

Post Analysis

AA:

(330)
- don't understand the Camisade attack.

Was this a question? Do you want me to elaborate? Or are you summarizing what I was saying?

- attacks Dave because there was no nightkill

Well, not quite. I don't buy into the inactive mafia led to no night-kill. I think the mafia was blocked by the Doctor. But I think Dave's reaction to goborage's suggestions is extremely telling. Dave thought goborage was serious and it scared him.

- "Wait for the replacements before day 3." - If you think you have a valid scum read on someone, why not vote them? Players don't change alignment when they get replaced.

===

Questions:

AA:
- Dave and Grum got replaced. Can you answer the voting question now?

The replacements have entered and enlivened this game nicely. Thanks to all. My top suspect is still Grum (now Artem). If you really want me to vote, I will.

Vote: Artem

.

On the other site I play this game we typically throw around votes much quicker and more carelessly and they are used as a pressure tactic much more often - maybe comparable to a FoS. From what I've experienced on this site, people don't like to vote unless they are ready to lynch that player, which is why I usually reserve my vote until I'm ready to end the day. Although I do like using votes for pressure without necessarily moving to lynch.

To be perfectly honest, with the new level of activity in this thread and all the new theories that are coming out, I'm not quite ready to move to lynch. I'd like to see these run their course a little bit first.

[strappado]

Ugh, BUSY week for me with work and life, haven't even had a chance to look past page 7 yet. I'll try to get some more analysis/questions up before the end of the week. I can't wait to be caught up! It's tough replacing, thanks for the patience!

[Artem]

I believe AA's vote puts me at L-2.

Is there anything specific in my posts you want me to address/defend?

[springlullaby]

@Artem

Reason: attacking an easy prey and utilizing newbie players, such as #1noob, to follow up with a vote.

I suppose the easy prey is yourself, right? Up till Grum's quitting, I would have agreed with leaving him alone, I think now that his lynch is a good enough bet.

I don't follow what you mean with the 'utilizing a newbie players' bit.


@Mokina

I think I addressed everything that was directed at me. Please point out where I failed to do so.

I'm a bit sick of the opportunism, really.

That doesn't sound too good.


Atm my vote is pretty set.

[springlullaby]

Messed my tag, bolded should be between quote tag, from Mokina.