Mini 586 - Blood Red Mafia - Game Over!

[populartajo]

I guess many of you are missing that a Werewolfhunter is the flavor equivalent of a role called Jack of all Trades. There's a link on the first post.

[Macavenger]

Interesting, that's a well hidden link.

Anyway, his play reads as "investigated DBE; guilty" to me.

[populartajo]

Mac, why are you still alive?

[Macavenger]

Good question, tajo. I didn't expect to be alive today, or Day 2 for that matter. I don't think analyzing the NKs is going to get us very far though. Riceballtail going down last night could be interpreted as evidence that DBE is scum - I could see them reading him as a cop if DBE actually is scum, and killing him because of that. Lacking knowledge of who's scum prevents that kind of read, I think. That's a really weak argument though, and nothing I'd ever mention if you hadn't specifically asked for my thinking in this direction. Otherwise, I can't really explain it. Scum could be just killing randomly to keep us guessing, for all I know.

[populartajo]

Mac, what do you think of Gobo?

[DarlaBlueEyes]

very sorry guys my internet went out and is being repaired, D:

I am gonna try to get a read through and reply in tomorrow, any big specific points you want from me you can collaborate and I'll try to answer best I can.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

I hardly call 3 votes "vote-hopping". My 1st vote on DBE was joining a wagon. My 2nd vote was on you cause you voted me. The 3rd was the hammer, need I say more.

So you are sayinf your votes were, a Bandwagon, an OMGUS, and a out of the Blue Hammer.... and thats not scummy behavior to you?


more on the more recent posts coming up.... still reading, but that stood out to me

[Cogito Ergo Scum]

Votecount

DarlaBlueEyes (3) - Macavenger, Amor, populartajo

Greasy Spot (2) - Shepher_of_Wolves, goborage

With 8 alive, it's 5 to lynch!

[populartajo]

Activity much? Where's Coheed, Amor?
Darla last question, can you make an analysis of all the people here=?

[CoheedCambria09]

Sorry, I've been busy lately, exams are really soon. I've been watching the thread though, and Greasy's justification of his 3 votes was horrible, it made me think he's even sucmmier, but I don't want to put him at L-1.

Darla's claim I'm also not sure about, I've never heard of the miller, and it seemed opertunistic to claim it because it would be a reason a cop would find her guilty. Very smart on her part to claim if she is scum.

[Amor]

Activity much? Where's Coheed, Amor?
Darla last question, can you make an analysis of all the people here=?

I'm still here. I've been posting as much as most people.

And I think Darla made a player-by-player analysis a few pages back.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

I am willing to do it again, seeing as how now, Greasy is screaming scum at me, will work on it and post within the hour.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

First, I would like to thank Grease for more substance. I think that what you said really supports lack of town.

You say that you promised to hammer. Where do you say that? The only reference I see to the Hammer vote is this.

I was mistaken. I posted that in another game. Sorry for the confusion.

So, you posted the threat in the other game. Okay, but why did you need to hammer here? Explain now that you previous explanation was not applicable to this game.

[1] All D-2 you vote hopped.

I hardly call 3 votes "vote-hopping". My 1st vote on DBE was joining a wagon. My 2nd vote was on you cause you voted me. The 3rd was the hammer, need I say more.

I agree that three could be considered none-vote-hopping if there is associated discussion and reasoning with the changes and votes. But, when it is all that you do, and you make no other discussion, it is vote-hoping.

[2] You robbed Xofelf the chance to plead her defense. And now we have one less town member. Town has no need to prevent the innocent from defending themselves, heck we allow everyone innocent or guilty the chance to defend.

Correct you are.

I am correct as you say. Then why? Why did you rob discussion, limit town from the only asset they have?

[3] Now you try to say that it would be too bold for you to have been scum and use the hammer. That is a load of crap IMO, coming from you. You make it sound like that was a pro town move. You could have questioned her prior to voting, especially knowing she was on the ledge and there was time to question. You could have offered explanation for considering her. There is no benefit to us by what you did.

I could have done any one of those, but she could have claimed as well.

If you expected her to claim, or thought it her chance out, then why not request her to do so with the threat to hammer? She could have had you given time and requested her to speak.

[4] Your first real question came today. Why wait until D-3 to get around to your first question.

See post 183 and 247

You have had some time, I agree it may not be much. You could have asked a question just as easily as you hammered. The excuse has its limitations and cannot cover all of your lack of townfulness.

You accuse me and Coheed of being equally as suspicious in voting Xofelf. I know that I questioned, reasoned and prodded for responsive behavior from her. You did not. So, if you want to point out something useful, please do. What else do you have to suspect me, Coheed, or anyone else for that matter.

Yeah, I couldn't find this could you direct me to a post.

Here it is, post 360.

9 out of 10 times your scum are not gonna hammer because they are too scared of the repercussions. I am town and mine was not the only vote on xofelf. If you want to lynch me fine but, look really good at the others on the xofelf wagon.

I stated a while ago I would hammer so

the two who voted right before me knew I would hammer and take the heat so they should be looked too.

As populartajo already alluded to CoheedCambria09 and Amor's votes and vote claim look just as bad as mine does.

It is me and Coheed that voted before you hammered. You accuse us of knowing that you would hammer and thus look just as suspicious. As mentioned earlier, you did not mention this and we had no clue, thus invalidating that attempt to blame us. But, here is were you accuse us.

You say Populartajo alluded that Coheed and Amor look just as bad as you. That is another lie. He said nothing about you. He did not like Coheeds vote, and Amor's willingness. You went far beyond willingness and hammered. That not only looks, but actually is way worse, given that the opportunity was still available for defense and discussion. Further, you want to change the appearance of how you look. Like I told Malthusis, scum are most worried about appearance.

No he didn't refer to me but he did say he didn't like their "vote" and "willingness". I'm the one that made the connection that theirs was as bad as my hammer.

There threats may seem bad, and popular should take that issue up. But, you still look worse for robbing any opportunity to respond. That is worse. I am surprised popular just lets this point go unresolved. He throws out the whole argument and does not return and just lets you pass by with this:

I dont think that Greasy deserves more attention than Darla. I guess he starts playing D2, D3 to avoid lynchs and nightkills. His style is pretty convenient for scum at the beginning of the game but he'll have to start to make sense if he doesnt want to be lynched soon. He's a top suspect.
For now, I think Darla's situation is extremely convenient for her. Village miller? Where did the village come from?I think she's a healthy lynch.
Why dont you, Goborage?

I do not think he was serious about what he said about how Xofelf was finished off or threatened to be by Amor and Coheed.

I want this post to be dedicated to my accusations on Grease.

ooooo.....A whole post dedicated to me. Don't feel special..

Regardless of how you feel about me, the town will be less one member if I am gone. If you are happy with that then you are not a member of the town group.

I am not happy loosing town. But, everyone who is scum claims town when it gets down to the question. So, me wanting you lynched is based on your anti-town behavior. If you are town, as you claim, then why rob town of discussion and avoid being helpful? There are ways to help town, none of which you do.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

If the town lynches Darla and not Grease, I am agreeable. I see Grease to be equal in deserving lynching but will be willing to help vote Darla. I think that she has total fabricated her claim and think she is scum. But, I know that tomorrow we will need the case on Grease which I intend to find.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

as promised, (sorry for the Delay)

Macavenger -- I really get a Townie vibe from him, he seems to be the most level headed in the town, but A good question was brought up, why isn't he dead? Could he have some sort of NK immune role? is the Scum just avoiding Killing him to create WIFOM? or is he himself a Scum masquerading as Town?

Eval: Should be looked into, however NOT Lynch material for today.

Populartajo -- Flipflopped a great deal between day 1 and day 2, used the newbie excuse, then was offended whn I attributed it to him in my last evaluation, I really am on the fence with him, but I would think he was town more than scum.

Eval: Town, should not be lynched

SOW: Scum hunter extraordinare. Possibly the most townie of the townie players, I would not under any circumstance want to see him go. I had my doubts in day 1 but he has proven himself to be an indispensable asset to this town.

Eval: 90% town, No lynch

Greasy: Ah greasy, the most erradic, and scummy player in the game. Lurked through the majority of D1 & D2, confessed to his votes being only OMGU, Bandwagon and a Hammer, has done nothing por-town all game. Scum.

Eval: Lynch.

Amor: Can't get a great read on him, seems pretty neutral, but I would think Town, in this case.

Eval: No Lynch.

Coheed: Only other scum suspect for me, and its really pushing it. I will have to come back later to explain, as for now I must go,

to sum up

vote greasy spot

[populartajo]

Darla, Where's goborage in your list?
Also, what made you change your mind about me?
Amor, dont you think we should listen more of what Darla has to say?
Shepherd, why dont you like the Darla lynch?

Mod, please prod these players.
4. Greasy Spot
5. Macavenger
8. goborage replacing Rosso Carne, replacing ValiantValant

[goborage]

Anyway, his play reads as "investigated DBE; guilty" to me.

I don't see it. Can you explain this further?

[Macavenger]

Mac, what do you think of Gobo?

I could go either way on Gobo right now. He was pretty blatantly unhelpful for a lot of D1, and he's still not being extremely helpful, though he has made a few good points recently if you dig through his posts for them. Biggest concern would be a tendency to go along with cases and not ask many questions himself right now.

Gobo, Riceballtail came out hard and fast against DBE D2 and continued to push on DBE basically all day. Even while changing his vote to help lynch xofelf, he was still putting out reminders of how scummy DBE was. The biggest indicator for me is his line about his suspicions from yesterday, and how he found those suspicions

confirmable

. Odd choice of words, but seems to indicate he had specific knowledge, which in light of his role reveal would imply a guilty investigation.

Of course if you buy the miller claim, this is fairly meaningless. For anyone who hasn't seen it, Miller is a relatively common role; Darla is at least not making that bit up. It's also an extremely convenient scum fakeclaim though, since it nicely explains any investigations on them. The fact that she claimed it in response to suggestions that she may have been investigated as guilty makes it that much more suspicious. And while I still dislike the way tajo flipped his opinion between D1 and D2, he's right that her play fits very much with scumbuddy of Malthusis.

I still suspect we're barking up the wrong tree with Greasy, and I'm not going to vote to help lynch him, though I'm not really going to actively campaign against it, either - I can't argue that he's been relatively anti-town; that's just so normal of him from what I've seen that I don't want to lynch him for it in the presence of better suspects. Right now my guess would be the scum is some combination of DBE, tajo, gobo, and coheed, in no particular order.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

ack sorry, I was in a hurry and being rushed out the door about halfway through,

Gobo; seems pretty town, I reread a lot of his posts and like SOW seems pretty level headed and doesn't jump to conclusions, if you read back the lump sum of his posting he is possibly one of the most neutral players as well.

Working up a Coheed analysis, may have to post it tomorrow depending on if I fall asleep or not.


As for you, I struggle with being a little annoyed with you but <with the exception of ABR aka 'Albie'> I try not to let my personal feelings towards a player affect how I read them. Even though I don't particularly like you, <for generally trying to lynch me :p> I just see you as too out there to be scum, and therefor, that is why.

[goborage]

I don't see anything resembling certainty in RBT's posts.

276 looks like a follow-the-leader type post.

289 RBT throws FoSs to two other people.

303 RBT makes another follow-the-leader post.

322 RBT makes coheed seem anti-town

I really don't think RBT had any info at all.

@Mac - So your pro-town list is Wolves, Amor and GS? I guess I can see Wolves but why Amor and GS?

[Cogito Ergo Scum]

Mod, please prod these players.
4. Greasy Spot
5. Macavenger
8. goborage replacing Rosso Carne, replacing ValiantValant

Greasy Spot has been prodded.

Votecount

DarlaBlueEyes (3) - Macavenger, Amor, populartajo

Greasy Spot (3) - Shepherd_of_Wolves, goborage, DarlaBlueEyes

With 8 alive, it's 5 to lynch!

[populartajo]

Thx CES. We need Greasy here.
Gob you failed to answer this question.

Gobo, what conclusions do you get from Malthusis coming up scum? Do you think Mac is more possible scum than town? DO you think Darla is more possible town than scum?

[goborage]

Thx CES. We need Greasy here.
Gob you failed to answer this question.

Gobo, what conclusions do you get from Malthusis coming up scum? Do you think Mac is more possible scum than town? DO you think Darla is more possible town than scum?

Neutral on Mac.

I don't think Mac voting off Malth makes him auto-town. However I also don't think that he's done anything damning. I suppose Mac's RBT post-analysis could be read as manipulative or conniving but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

From what I can see, the biggest point against DBE is her early defense of Malth and a good number of town. I'll acknowledge that this could be scum helping scum and mass-buddying but I think this could just as easily be newb-town play.

I'd say that DBE is scummier than Mac but not scummier than GS.

And before anyone tries to link DBE and I together, I would just like to say that I'd be willing to hammer DBE just to see her alignment and get info on the people BWing her.

[Amor]

Amor, dont you think we should listen more of what Darla has to say?

Not really. It seems obvious to me that she's scum, so what she says is either manipulation or an attempt to get out of it. She's posted a lot already, so we probably have enough to lead us to her remaining scumbuddy in there, and if not I doubt another couple of posts is going to reveal it. Why not lynch her now? Just because we have a week until deadline doesn't mean we have to wait until then. Actually, I think that regular town lynches are much more informative than lynches right up against the deadline, where most everyone on the wagon can claim they were just doing it to get a lynch.

Of course, if you don't think Darla is scum then you have every reason not to be voting her, but I'm hardly being hasty here.

[Macavenger]

I really don't think RBT had any info at all.

Maybe, maybe not, but DBE is plenty scummy with or without a guilty investigation. Also, again, it's the "I find this confirmable" that really leads me to think in the direction of a guilty.

@Mac - So your pro-town list is Wolves, Amor and GS? I guess I can see Wolves but why Amor and GS?[/quote]
Amor because he's done next to nothing that jumped out and said scummy to me - closest thing would probably be his dodging/semantics accusation against me D1, but that was fairly minor and he dropped it after I refuted it.

Greasy isn't really on my town list per se. The issue is that he's being attacked for things that are classic strong scum tells, but aren't realy scumtells for Greasy, because he does them all the time as town also. So while they are anti-town actions and he really needs to work on his playstyle, they aren't indicative of alignment in his case. My read on him is basically null, and since I do have scum readings on other people, he's not good lynch material.

Speaking of people I have scum reads on, I did some rereading and poking around at stuff here. At this point, I'm going to propose that the remaining scum are DBE and goborage.

Bulk of the case on DBE has been laid out a lot, I don't feel the need to go over it again.

Looking at goborage:
Day 1 he was pretty useless for the most part. Had to be prodded hard by multiple players to get him to do something as basic as laying out what he thought about people, and even then he was extremely reluctant and gave very little information - basically giving everyone a neutral read. Discusses theory a bit, but makes little effort to actually find scum. Hops on the Malth/OG wagon when I started pushing for a lynch before deadline.

Day 2 makes the WIFOM argument that scum would be off Malth's wagon to vote for populartajo. Very convenient stance to take if both he and buddy DBE got on that wagon to be visible helping lynch scum. He basically lurks through all of Day 2, making a total of 6 very short, noninformative posts, and carefully avoids saying anything about the two main wagons of the day, DBE and xofelf. While his reasons for attacking tajo early D2 are not entirely bad, I don't like the WIFOM, or the fact that he then just sat his vote there the rest of the day without commenting on anything else particularly. He also says "lynching [Greasy] for being anti-town is as good a reason as any," making the implication that Greasy is a good lynch for anti-town behavior even if he's not scum. This argument always makes me twitch.

Today, he's posted a bit more, but has done basically nothing except defend DBE and attack Greasy.

Basically he's been closemouthed, posting as little information as possible, and has made no real effort to figure out who the scum are, just gone along with a few cases where it was convenient, and ignored the rest of the game.

Now, let's look at connections:

Malth/gobo connections are limited at best.
Malth/DBE connections are well documented.
Gobo/DBE connections:
Early D1, gobo tells DBE he doesn't like how she's defending everyone, and suggests she stop. She does so immediately. Later says her defending is a null tell, and criticizes people FoSing her for it.
D2 he didn't say much of anything, about anyone, but supports a GS or tajo lynch over DBE.
Today he's still trying to keep DBE out of the noose, attacking the idea that she might have been investigated, and pointing to other players as scummier.

The connections coming from DBE are possibly more interesting.
DBE doesn't talk about gobo Day 1. At all. She replies to a post of his a couple times, but never says anything about him.
Day 2 She still mentions him only once, putting him as strongly town on her list of everyone, claiming he'd been legitimately scumhunting and thought about the OG lynch. Except he hasn't done any scumhunting, at all.
She's mentioned gobo a couple times today, all saying he seems very town, and again claiming that he's logical/scumhunting, which is very off.

Right now I'm seeing DBE and goborage as both individually quite scummy and fairly strongly linked to each other. I'm happy lynching either at this point. Vote stays on DBE for now since she already has a wagon.

Still mildly suspicious of tajo for his flipflop/aggressive attacking my case D1, and coheed for lurking/wagoning. Those are both starting to look more and more like long shots though.