Mini 584: Sudo_Nym Presents- Over!

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I would also like to know what YOU see as the major difference between the Lowell case and the Johoono case - please give me a real answer and not just some witty quip.

Lowell is lowell, and lurking and sitting on fences is sort of what he does. So I'm not surprised that its what he's doing this game. Johoohno, on the other hand, did actually contradict himself on the lurker thing, which is certainly notable.

Why am I so confident you're scum? I'm not sure you could have done anything more scummy than that play with mafiassk. Its not a mistake that can be explained away by newness.

You wanted him lynched, and then all of the sudden you didn't, and all that changed was other people stopped voting for him.

I don't see much town motivation in that.

And you may see pro-town in your play today, but I see someone throwing out accusations against every player until he found one with a little traction.

[icemanE]

Lowell is lowell, and lurking and sitting on fences is sort of what he does. So I'm not surprised that its what he's doing this game.

So you excuse it? I don't know if a meta that reads as scummy behavior can be used in defense of someone acting scummy. Would you expect Lowell to be 100% protown, contributing massive amounts of content if he were town? I would think he'd act just as scummy - that doesn't add up as a valid reason in my book.

Johoohno, on the other hand, did actually contradict himself on the lurker thing, which is certainly notable.

This, though, is a valid reason.

Why am I so confident you're scum? I'm not sure you could have done anything more scummy than that play with mafiassk. Its not a mistake that can be explained away by newness. You wanted him lynched, and then all of the sudden you didn't, and all that changed was other people stopped voting for him. I don't see much town motivation in that.

I guess I'll have to reread that section, and maybe it's my newness that prevents me from seeing it, but I honestly can't see what was so scummy about that part of the game. I made one comment about how it would be difficult for mafiaSSK's replacement to pull him out of the "scum gutter", but I was surprised at TSQ's stark contrast to MafiaSSK's actions, so initially, yes, I did stop being as suspicious of him as I was. However, mostly do to what YOU said about TSQ, I became suspicious of him again. Then I noticed Lowell.

And you may see pro-town in your play today, but I see someone throwing out accusations against every player until he found one with a little traction.

Good point. I have been pointing a lot of fingers. Personally I think it helps more than being stone-set on one person, as you are, because you get info from EVERYONE playing instead of one person sitting there defending themselves on into eternity. You saw the train wreck with Zeek. Honestly, I think that casting suspicions all over the place is not only MORE PRODUCTIVE for the town but is actually LESS scummy than being totally tunnel-visioned in. If you weren't more or less proven as a townie I'd express suspicions, but it doesn't seem like that would be at all productive or reasonable.

The bottom line is this: if you vote for someone, and present a case against them, it draws them out of hiding and forces them to respond and react, and it's primarily those reactions upon which I base my suspicions and votes. Grabbing hold of something suspect and using it as a case against someone is a totally productive, protown idea, and the more you can do it, the more information you gather. As you said, the Lowell case found traction. That's why I've stuck with it, and that's why I think he's scum.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

So you excuse it? I don't know if a meta that reads as scummy behavior can be used in defense of someone acting scummy.

Well, I was right about zeek, too. I don't have to like it (I'd as soon have lowell replaced, much like ssk), but I'm not going to call for his lynch when I know that's how he plays.

Casting suspicions all over the place can be good, but you shouldn't be basing which players you stick with based on who else is willing to listen to you, which is what I see you doing.

[Sudo_Nym]

icemanE 4

-

TheSweatpantsNinja, Lowell, Thestatusquo, Sir Tornado

Lowell 3-

icemanE, Greasy Spot, Celebloki

Celebloki 1-

Johoohno

Johoohno 1-

Faerielord

With 11 alive, 6 will lynch.

Looks like another round of prods is going out.

[FaerieLord]

Well, I was right about zeek, too. I don't have to like it (I'd as soon have lowell replaced, much like ssk), but I'm not going to call for his lynch when I know that's how he plays.

If I ever play against zeek again, and he plays like he did in this game, I shall lynch him again

[Lowell]

I'm back. It might take me a couple of days to find regular internet access again. Sorry.

[Celebloki]

Not much has happened here for the past few days. My top 2 suspects are still Lowell and Johoohno as stated in my previous posts. I would be happy with heat on either of them really. I'll switch over to Johoohno and see if we can apply more pressure.

Unvote

Vote: Johoohno

[icemanE]

EBWOP post 676 - The quote tagged "Jo said" should say "TSPN said".

[Johoohno]

I am here - doing my earlier mentioned reread. Will be done in two or three days and I'll give you my opinions then.

unvote

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

If I ever play against zeek again, and he plays like he did in this game, I shall lynch him again

Oh, I ended up voting for him too, just because he was such a liability-the point is, metas are sometimes valid.

[icemanE]

OK, so after some rereading, especially of the recent analysis posts, I still see the Lowell and Johoono cases as strikingly similar. However, the town in general seems to see the Johoono case as the stronger of the two - perhaps because the case was constructed by a more trusted source, namely Faerie Lord. Considering that I feel the two cases are nearly identical in the conclusions formed from them, I hold the two on a relatively equal plane. Additionally, as the town sees Johoono's as the stronger case, I don't see the Lowell wagon rolling too much further today. In light of all this,

unvote. vote: Johoono

I feel that if Johoono's play leads to him being scum, then Lowell's case should be treated the same way tomorrow.

[TDC]

The thing is, even though Lowell is pretty scummy as well (I'm glad that you are finally putting all your thoughts into posts), a Johoohno lynch will provide us with more information in my eyes than a Lowell lynch, especially in the interchange Johoohno had with CaptianCake in the beginning.

Do you mean the random voting thing?
What would Johoohno's alignment tell us about CaptainCake?

[FaerieLord]

The interchange was certainly not a scum - scum interchange.

[Johoohno]

I'm almost done with my reread, but FaerieLords started bandwagon on me (post 661 needs to be answered before someone gets trigger happy following a wagon based on a fabricated truth). I've put in my comments in bold in the quote.

Post 4: Tells Greasy to start scum hunting (ironic, no?)

by asking questions to people for instance, as I did IcemanE here but you just happened to leave out of your summary

Post 6: Re justifies his weak vote (even though everyone is ignoring it) and puts a FoS on Zeek.

In what way do I justify my vote when I switched it down to a FoS instead?

Post 11: Says that it is easy for scum to win using "LaL" policy, since it's more probable that town lurk than scum lurk, since there are more town. He also changes his reason for voting MafiaSSK. He goes from pressuring lurkers out to the reason he gave in his recap.

So my inconsistency, in your eyes, is that I say I'm close to "lynch all lurkers" and then say that LaL is a way for scum victory? Don't you see the difference between being pro LaL and being close to LaL? Have you ever in this game seen me being sloppy with my vote and leaving it where it might hurt a potential innocent player? However I find it very interesting that you've achieved a witch hunt built on lies (you and all the trailers are duly noted)

Post 12: Says voting lurkers is not scum hunting, though not anti-town. See posts 8 and 9

You are aware of the difference between voting and lynching, right?

Post 23: Says I'm trying to start a "claim train", where I only asked for one claim. Compares two completely different scenarios.

By claim train I mean that you started the whole claiming business and made others follow, hence the train

Now, seeing all these posts, I want to ask you all, where has Johoohno posted content, apart from post no. 10 (and even that is to a certain extent, since material from it was reiterating what others said.) To me, this is an example of lurking in plain sight. Another thing I didn't like about Johoohno is his constant justification of his votes. Also, see his flip-flop on his vote on MafiaSSK. Started out as a vote so that he would post content, then it became a "buddying up" case, then once again it became to post content. Another flip flop is his stance on lurkers. Notice how he was against in post 11, because he said scum could have something out of it? He voted lurkers, THRICE! MafiaSSK, Greasy and CaptianCake. I also want you all to notice how he hasn't been on a single wagon of relevance. Zeek only got an FoS from his. No vote on Iceman either, and no vote on lowell either. Though he does say that if celebloki's analysis takes foot, he will jump on it. The amount of fence sitting he has done in this game is astonishing. So yeah, all that considered, I think this warrants a:

Unvote, Vote Johoohno

Yes I am well aware of my low profile and constant nagging about prods and replacements, but that is because this game has been a lurker/replacement carousel from the beginning. I enjoy mafia best when the same players stick through the entire game. Replacements slow down games a lot.

And about me being on no wagons has to do with the fact that I've not been interested in pursuing any wagon so far to the end (except for GS up till his claim). I don't necessarily see band wagons as the greatest way of getting information (as TSQ, and obviously you do).

[FaerieLord]

by asking questions to people for instance, as I did IcemanE here but you just happened to leave out of your summary

That is not scum hunting. That is asking Iceman what he wants to do.

In what way do I justify my vote when I switched it down to a FoS instead?

Justifying = Showing that there is reason behind your vote.

So my inconsistency, in your eyes, is that I say I'm close to "lynch all lurkers" and then say that LaL is a way for scum victory? Don't you see the difference between being pro LaL and being close to LaL? Have you ever in this game seen me being sloppy with my vote and leaving it where it might hurt a potential innocent player? However I find it very interesting that you've achieved a witch hunt built on lies (you and all the trailers are duly noted)

Excuse me, witch hunt? I posted a case on someone I see as scummy and it turns into a witch hunt. Over reaction much? Also, you fail at noticing the inconsistency. You first say that there are probably more town lurking than scum as I quote

there will probably be more townies than scums among the lurkers

but before you said you voted him because he was lurking. And I quote again.

My thought with post 129 was to force him (=MafiaSSK) to post and hopefully add some valuable content.

and you confirmed this when TSQ subbed in. Quoting again

The vote was for pressure to deliver.

Am I fabricating truths?

You are aware of the difference between voting and lynching, right?

Your point?

By claim train I mean that you started the whole claiming business and made others follow, hence the train

Really? I recall being voted for asking Zeek for a claim. I never saw screaming fans behind me. Strange, huh?

Also, if I do recall correctly, I had more than 5 quotes in my case. While I do not expect you to respond to the posts that say "clarifies", I think there are more than 5 questions.

Also, noted how you try and put it as though I invented stuff. I quoted everything you said, and saying I "fabricating truths" is trying to dismiss my case.

[Greasy Spot]

I think you guys are making a mistake changing your votes from Lowell and following FaireLord. While I admit Johoono is suspicious, I don't trust FaireLord Yet.

My vote is still on Lowell and I wish you guys would reconsider changing your votes back.

[Johoohno]

My stance on lurking

(mainly aimed at FaerieLord, but IcemanE and TSN would also benefit from reading this)
Post 184:

I am in general pretty close to the policy "Lynch all lurkers", or at least want to shake them to life.

Post 227:

Voting people for lurking is pursuing scum, unless you're in favor of having lurkers survive until endgame without us having any clue of their alignment.

Nope, it’s pursuing lurkers. And lurkers might be scums or townies. And since there are more townies than scums, there will probably be more townies than scums among the lurkers, which would lead to a scum win using your strategy.

What is the inconsistency? I don’t like lurkers – I want as many people as possibly participating in the game (you cannot have missed this, I call out for participating a lot, especially in this game where 5 people have been replaced partly due to inactivity). To shake people to life you can vote them and see if that gets them to be more active (as I tried to do with mafiaSSK, and CaptainCake). But just single-mindedly lynching lurkers in a long line will not lead to a town victory because many town lurkers have just lost their interest or their time for the game and will not react very much. Scum on the other hand might lurk due to keeping their head low, and as soon as they notice that lurkers get lynched they will participate more. My stance is therefore that you need to wake up the lurkers to get a game where everyone participate and through everyone’s interactions scums are found.

General analysis on the way

- will come today or tomorrow

[FaerieLord]

Yes, the way you say it now, it makes sense. But no where before was it implying that. The way you said it before

[quote="Johoohno]generally pretty close to the policy "Lynch All Lurkers"[/quote]

Just to let you know, that you did say that you are close to the policy of lynching all lurkers. That means, that you wouldn't mean lynching all lurkers. Unless there is something I'm not getting here?

And also, the other inconsistency you seem to forget about? The one where you vote for mafiassk and change your reasonings? And I already told you, I have much more points to be answered in my first post against you

[Lowell]

A couple of things.

1) Again I apologize. I moved into a new house without internet, and internet has been down at work for the past few days. This was after having been gone at a wedding for 4 days. I'm writing this from the library.

2) a) I don't understand why iceman is still alive. All he's done is point and say "look, over there!" when accused. The fact that his lynch sort of fizzled out without much fanfare from anyone (as everyone quickly looked in other directions) makes me more sure this is the right play.
b) FL's position worries me. A lot of people have jumped on the joohoo case more or less because he told them to. I don't particularly think FL is scum, and I appreciate his activeness, but I do think a few scum are on the wagon, trying to look good in FL's eyes, knowing that a lot of players are content to lurk. Which is pretty much the only reason I don't suspect joohoo at the moment.

[FaerieLord]

So you are not suspicious of Johoo, because there might be scum on the wagon? It's a given that there will be scum on any wagon. It's called bussing.

[Lowell]

So you are not suspicious of Johoo, because there might be scum on the wagon? It's a given that there will be scum on any wagon. It's called bussing.

Also possible. But it's enough of an alarm that I'm not super eager to jump on board.

[icemanE]

A lot of people have jumped on the joohoo case more or less because he told them to.

Either that or he made a case I think is as good as my own.

Also, the wagon on me hasn't died out at all. The 4 who were on it still are.

The thing that scares me about that is that the most evidently town person out of all the unconfirmed players is on it, and in fact started it, along with at least two of the scum.

I think you guys are making a mistake changing your votes from Lowell and following FaireLord. While I admit Johoono is suspicious, I don't trust FaireLord Yet.

My vote is still on Lowell and I wish you guys would reconsider changing your votes back.

Grease, I didn't switch my vote because I trust Faerie Lord, necessarily. I swapped it because of the case he made.

[Johoohno]

My shift on my MafiaSSK vote

Post 156 is where I vote mafiaSSK for not adding valuable content (= lurking).
Post 184 is where I say that will make a reread and re-evaluate things.
(post 190 is where MafiaSSK says he has a lurking playstyle.)
post 224 is my analysis after my reread, where I’ve actually found some things that I missed or connections I didn’t see earlier (isn’t this what everyone does when rereading?). Here I’ve noticed a connection to Iceman, another player I’m suspicious of.

The way I see it FaerieLord is that your case on me is based on your either not reading thoroughly enough or trying to fabricate a lie and present that to everyone else in order to make the town lynch me. (Don’t be surprised your being a star in my top scum list soon to come).

[FaerieLord]

And then, which you conveniently left out, you unvote MafiaSSK saying that you voted him just for content, while in post 224, you say that it is not due to content, but due to the connection between him and Iceman - another suspicious person.

present that to everyone else in order to make the town lynch me.

Hey, the town can read can't they? They are free to check the posts, and see that I am not fabricating lies

(Don’t be surprised your being a star in my top scum list soon to come).

And this, is how you perform an OMGUS without voting.

[Johoohno]

Celebloki

(replacing CaptainCake)
• Continues to stall the game (post 628 & 651)
• Seems to be an opportunistic player (joins the lowell wagon as #3, and skips to my case as #2)
• I have a hard time reading C/CC, could be scum, but could also be inexperienced town relying too much on the opinion of others.

FaerieLord

• Post 661Calls me out for inconsistency in lurker policy (this is what I call fabricating the truth). I can’t honestly understand what you are aiming at (and I think I’ve explained my stance clearly enough?!). The same goes for the case on me about my vote on MafiaSSK. All of this is presented in a post without any quick links to make it harder for people to actually check the facts and easier just to agree with it as truths.
• Also note that he is the first one to vote me this day 2, trying to get a wagon rolling.
• Then there is my suspicion of him from day 1 focused on his wanting zeek to claim.

Greasy Spot

• Not much to say, nobody counter claimed. And even though I didn’t like his play style most of D1 it has actually improved a lot D2.

IcemanE

• Still on the line between newbie scum and newbie town.

Thestatusquo

(replacing MafiaSSK)
• Gets the Zeek wagon rolling once more (post 386)
• Post 405 quote (aimed at TSN about Zeek): ” The only conclusion that I can draw is that you're protecting an inexperienced scumbuddy who you know will not be very good at fake claiming”. Let’s not forget this whole ordeal between TSQ and TSN. I wouldn’t be surprised if TSQ wanted to undermine TSN and then decided to kill him off during the night. It would be good for scum to remove players who seem to be all town.
• Makes a list and tries to make it official of who are town and who are scum in post 490. Due to doc claim TSN and GS isn’t on the scum list, and he also saves himself and FaerieLord (and partly IcemanE) from it.
• He also has a very shift activity. He can be away for very long periods and then bombard the thread with very lengthy posts at other times.

Surye

(replacing Marmalade)
• I really felt marmalade was townish D1, but there is too little to judge from (and surye has said next to nothing).

Sir Tornado

(replacing Nanosauromo)
• Again a player duo with too little content to judge them by.

Lowell

(replacing Natirasha)
* I understand his stance on not claiming doc post 556 since scum would love to trade on of their own for the doc and therefore reduce the risk of a repeat of N1 for them. Though I agree with a lot IcemanE says about lowell (vote hopping and lurking).

TDC

• Hard to read, makes very short posts and tries to stay just above the lurking surface (post 552 is an example of that).

ThesweatpantsNinja

• Not much to say due to Greasy Spots uncountered claim that he protected TSN N1.

---

Scum connections

I also see a connection between FaerieLord and TSQ/MafiaSSK. Post 228 is interesting. First FL doesn’t seem to agree with my scum buddying thoughts on Ice and MafiaSSK – see posts just before also (because he doesn’t want to see his scum buddy – MafiaSSK - being paired with a scummy player, that could lead to a lynch on either of them). Secondly I also read this post as a hint to MafiaSSK to stop lurking.

In post 386 TSQ says: “Faerielord is the most townie by far. Take this declaration with a grain of salt, though …”

In post 412 he seems to be very relieved that MafiaSSK has been replaced with TSQ (a scum partner he doesn’t work well with switched to someone he likes better?)

In
post 467

I found this:

I don't know if I buy it, I'm not sure I would have picked me out as the mafia kill.

I surely wouldn't have. I'd have nuked TSQ because I know he's a good player. But all this is wifom. If I was mafia, would I leave shea alive so I could make this argument? And the wifom ensues. So I'd rather leave the "I wouldn't nuke me" comments to the side.

This doesn’t ring very, sounds as if he is implying that TSQ isn’t scum.

In post 578 this is found:

Just because he is scum in this game doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about when referring to the game as a whole. I'm sure he's been town before, and he appears to be an experienced player.

He is. He is experienced enough to not help town when he is scum

Here FaerieLord kind of steps in a defends TSQ a bit (which, by the way, seems to be pretty unnecessary any way you look at it).

I also see some connections between FaerieLord and Iceman, but they are not as interesting to me since both FaerieLord and TSQ are both higher up on my scum suspicion list.

---

Summary

Since I see TSQ and FaerieLord as my top scum candidates I am prepared to lynch either of them today. I have a hard time picking out a single #3 on my list but if one of TSQ or FaerieLord is lynched that would really clear my stance on IcemanE.

I’ll actually

Vote: FaerieLord

(just waiting now to hear the cries of OMGUS)