Mini 611a - Troy, Meet Helen (Restarting)

[charter]

/confirm

[charter]

vote: macavenger

X doesn't mark the spot

[charter]

I've never heard of a 15 MPH speed limit ...

I'd not one for random voting. Although I slightly comprehend the purpose of it, it still seems slightly silly to me. Perhaps my non-random-voting will spark some discussion?

If what Had says is true, you're non-random voting seems odd. As well as your slightly over the top usage of the word slightly.

[charter]

I'm not going to answer that. Whatever answer I give you'll turn into an argument against me. Obviously it can't be very odd, or even odd enough to raise much suspicion. But I agree with netlava, that was pretty scummy (except I'm not really joking), especially the way you demanded I answer you "right now". Makes it seem like you want to string me up early.

[charter]

I'm not going to answer that. Whatever answer I give you'll turn into an argument against me.

That's generally how this game works though. questions are asked an followed up, not just left at an answer. otherwise we wouldn't get anywhere. refusing to answer questions seems slightly scummy in my opinion.

Fos: Chater.

So asking loaded questions isn't scummy? Well then Had, who did you and your scumbuddies decide to go after today? Regardless of your answer I can turn it into an argument against you.

@riot, I guess we just misunderstood each other. Up until that point, it was the most out of place thing that had happened. I still haven't checked to see if what Had says is true (though I will in a few hours), but if Blackberry has done random votes at the beginning of games, it's wierd that he would say he doesn't do that in this one. The part that strikes me as odd is that he says he doesn't do it, but he in fact has before.

Also, why do you not question Near for placing a third vote on mac? You seem to forget about his following.

[charter]

This is actually quite interesting. I don't answer a question, and it seems I'm the only suspect and the only person anyone has interest in questioning. I didn't dodge it Riot, and I didn't give a flakey answer, I told riot directly I'm not going to answer his question because I thought he was asking just so he could use my answer to make his case on me.

Also, Had, you seem quite eager to vote me. You say refusing to answer questions is slightly scummy, but in your next post you vote for me.

The same goes for you Mac. You seem very eager to jump on my bandwagon, with just a feeble reason for voting. I can't believe either one of you has come to the conclusion I'm scum from my refusing to answer a question which I thought was loaded. Riot isn't voting for me and he's the one who is raising suspicion on me, you two are just following him.

Also, I think this is getting blown out of proportion. If you want to keep interrogating me about it, I'm going to keep giving the same answer. I didn't answer because I thought Riot would use the answer to build a case against me (ironically the opposite has happened). If my actions are scummy, there's nothing I can do about it.

[charter]

I didn't answer because I thought Riot would use the answer to build a case against me (ironically the opposite has happened). If my actions are scummy, there's nothing I can do about it.

By avoiding the question you're making yourself look worse. If you would have given a reasonable respsonse, and CF Riot tried to use it to build a case around you, it would have made him look scummy.

Way to look like you're contributing but just reiterating what has already been said. Setting yourself up so you can jump on board too?

If everyone is so keen for me to give an answer, 1 out of 10. There. Now you can resume asking me the same questions and pointing out the same things you've already pointed out.

[charter]

Vote: Charter

As you can see, not answering questions is bad. Now I don't think you should be lynched based on that alone, but I will add my vote on you to add on even more pressure.

What more is there to pressure? This has already been blown up and I can't see people still pursuing this instead of other better scumtells.

@Netlava, you know now everyone is going to string you up for defending me. OMG, Now we're scumbuddies!!!!!111...

Battousai Replaces FlyingFoxBat -- I have nothing on you. You need to talk more.
-- You just posted right before I posted this. Tunnel-vision. Too focused on one person and no comment about anything else. I don't like this. Nor do I like your "As you can see not answering questions is bad" ... in my opinion, I can't see a townsperson saying that to someone.

Didn't even noticed I wrote that lol. I guess I was still in the IC mode. I know you are writing how you feel about everyone, but how can 1 post be tunnel-vision? I know I could have posted how I felt about EVERYONE like you did, but I feel it did not warrant it at that time.

How can one post be tunnel-visioned? You go from absolutely nothing to voting (not a random vote either), give a poor reason, post just one line, and completely ignore all the other players in your post. You still have yet to contribute anything other than a vote for me in this game. It seems to me that you're trying to lynch me just because I'm the popular person to vote for right now. You don't have any interest in finding something more concrete on someone (or me) but are satisfied that I'm scum because I didn't answer a question.

Tinsley and Battosai have both voted for me because I didn't answer a question. Had and Mac voted for me because they didn't like one of my posts. Neither of those reasons seems enough to me to vote for someone and stop focusing on everyone else. None of them (except Tinsley) has mentioned another player (except asking walnut to clarify) since voting for me.

Had - I think that he thinks that I'm actually scum, so he's just eager to get me lynched.

Battosai - Has no other objectives but lynching me.

Tinsley and Mac - not sure on them yet, I don't like tinsley's not thinking for himself and just restating what others have already said.

[charter]

Oh, and

unvote

- now that the random stage of voting is over.

Is that all?

I find this slightly odd that you would unvote just because the random stage is over, added to that you don't vote anyone else or give us any opinions. I appreciate that you have exams, but even with time constraints there was no real need to just unvote.

Although I can't see this as a scum tell, but slightly odd play.

I've never heard the word slightly used so much. Rank how odd you think SG's post is on a scale from 1-10 right now.

also, since I don't have reason enough to vote for anyone now,

unvote

[charter]

@riot, My asking Had was facetious, hence the rolleyes. I could care less on a numerical ranking of how slightly odd anyone thinks anything is. I didn't post something on you because you're not voting for me, I only did it for the people voting for me. I figured I'd wait until everyone's posted before I go doing them on everyone.

Sidenote, what's this golden rule of mafia you're referring to?

[charter]

What I'm saying is, you came into the game, and chose to only say anything about me. There is definately something that could have been said about another player. Everytime I've seen someone replace into a game, including at the very beginning, they've offered opinions on more than one person.

One line meant it took up one line on my screen, not one sentence, but lets not argue about this. The point was it was a short post.

You didn't feel like giving an analysis on page three of every player. You didn't have to do every player. You could have done at least one other player, but you actively chose to single out me. It almost seems like you're waiting for arguments to made against other players so you can just reiterate those. Not much original posting going on from you.

Also you try and play off Riot's assessment of you as a joke on his part, when it seemed obviously to be serious to me.

[charter]

CF, your last post is flawed.

Netlavas post 33 was pretty clearly (at least in my eyes) a joke. When I, according to you, couldn't think for myself and said the same thing, serious in my saying it this time, you used that to create a whole ton of evidence against me. This coupled with my vote with a dumb reason at the beginning to make the argument that I can't think for myself, it almost seems contrived.

He's not being inconsistant, you're just twisting words with the posts you quoted. That was what he said in post 75 but he never says that's why he thinks you're scum. You seem to have gotten it in your head that that's why he thinks you're scummy, but he never said that, so I don't see how you can assume it, unless you're just looking to fabricate an argument. There is really no inconsistancies in anything Netlava has so far, he's never said that your questioning me is scummy. He just gives a scenario, not his reasoning on why he finds you suspicious. Then you defend your reasoning. He even tells you this explicitly in his next post, saying he has other reasons for finding you scummy, but you choose to ignore it.

I also don't like how you said "I've yet to avoid any responsibility". Coupled with your last post worrying about your future, it seems like you're in this all by yourself. You are so focused on the wellfare of yourself right now and want to stay free of responsibility but you also want whats best for you, not the town.
Another thing, if you're so sure I'm scum, why haven't you voted me? You are going to great lengths to avoid the fallout if I'm lynched.

That aside, I'm still waiting for battousai to do one (or more) of the following:
- say an original idea or thought
- respond to questions asked of him and not blow them off
- post something about someone other than me

[charter]

His scumminess peaked early, so there was no point in the game later that made me think, "Okay now I'm sure." I think everyone here knows my stance on Charter, so whether or not I vote wouldn't distance me from any fallout later. The real vote wouldn't carry any more weight than my posts and FoS.

That's not true. If you were to vote for me, and I happened to be lynched, you would get a lot more questioning tomorrow that if you just built the case against me, but never actually voted for me. You'd still have the out "well I wasn't sure!" Votes certainly carry more weight. If everyone just FoS'ed everyone, there'd be nothing to stop rampant scummy activity since you'd just earn yourself another FoS. If you're getting votes piled on you, even if you're not neccessarily about to be lynched, it will impact what you do in this game.
You were the one person I thought was absolutely a townie until your post 83. This one only helps in making me way less sure.

The reason I think cf riot and blackberry are pro town is because they are doing alot of scum hunting or at least thats what it seems like to me going posts: 54, 60, and 61. They also seem to have a very aggressive play style.

Why would an aggressive playstyle e indicative of pro-town motivations?

He doesn't say aggressive playstyle is indicative of pro-town motivations. You've jumped to that conclusion all by yourself. He just says they also seem to have an aggressive play style, not that that makes them pro-town.

I've yet to see any explanation of why this is a loaded question - how would he be building a case on any answer to it? This goes for both charter and Netlava.

First, I'd already expressed my opinion (that it was odd) before he asked me a question. Odd has only a very slightly suspicious connotation, nothing like if I'd said "Oh, that's suspicious" or something of another degree. For him to ask me a question to which I've already given my thoughts makes me think he's fishing for some ammo to go after me with.
If I'd told him 1 (or another low number), I thought he was going to say that I was subtly pointing suspicion to BB, with my saying his change of play is odd. This subtly steering us towards someone I would have found to be scummy, because the whole goal of the scum is to point to innocent townies while not appearing to. Hence, why I refused to answer.
If I'd said a high number, I would have been expected to pursue my suspicions. BB's change in play this game can't influence how I think of him in terms of scum or not scum. Basing a decision on something like that is pure WIFOM.
If I'd said a middle number, I would have gotten more questioning for my 'lack of taking a stance' on anything.

It's a scum tell because baddies know who is scum. So when accusing a player, they know their alignment beforehand and the fact that they'll inevitably be "wrong." Your posts seem to indicate this by trying to shift the blame already in the case of a mislynch. Usually when townies try to get someone lynched they are at least reasonably convinced that the person is guilty. Granted, nothing is certain, but if you aren't convinced whether someone is guilty why lynch?

Townies lynch townies. It sucks, but it happens. We have to deal with it. It's precisely because townies can never be sure that we have to, to some extent, plan for all possibilities. How is he trying to set himself up an out from the wagon by those comments? I see no shifting of blame or disconnecting going on by his statements about what could happen.

Townies don't worry about the fallout they will recieve if they honestly think someone is scum. They aren't as concerned to come out the next day looking clean. Scum however will prepare for the fallout because they know it's going to be a mislynch. Townies don't know, so they can't prepare, especially this early. If you're a townie and you're voting on someone to lynch them, then you genuinely think they're scum. Riot has already started preparing to distance himself if I wind up being the lynch today. It makes it seem like he knows I'm going to turn up town and is preparing. Notice how no one else who suspects me is the least bit concerned of their image tomorrow. This suggests that they actually think I'm scum.

Other notes, Near, what are your thoughts on various people? Please don't pull a battousai and just post them on one person though.
Battousai, you're alleviating my concerns on you, thank you for posting thoughts on others.
@All, this is unquestionably the best participated game I've ever been in, it's pretty nice not waiting a day for each new post.

Also,

unvote

this isn't the random vote phase anymore.

[charter]

I think it's implied, given that he said it in the context of discussing why he found them pro-town. I'd like to see him answer the question himself.

Regardless of his answer, it's still a leap I don't think a townie should (or would) make without clarifying first. But I'd like for him to clarify as well.

I mostly agree with the theory you cite here. The part I'm not seeing is where he's trying to disconnect himself from your theoretical lynch. Simply stating how he would feel if you happened to turn up town does not carry any connotation of distancing to me. Where are you getting that from his statement?

The end of his post 83, he basically says it himself.

All I know is I'm putting a lot of my credibility on calling out Charter now that I've started this wagon, and as such I've considered what may happen in the future if I'm wrong.

He's worried how he'll look tomorrow if I get lynched.

[charter]

No I never meant to imply that I was in fact taking them. Netlava said it appeared that I was taking precautions

as scum

. I am not scum, and my post was saying "

if

I were, I wouldn't need them."

No one else has no way of knowing you're not scum.

[charter]

My last post was pointless. I don't like how Riot is says he's not scum. There's no need to claim this unless he is scum. Looks pretty WIFOM to me.

[charter]

Charter, don't answer questions not directed at the whole group or yourself. Now I don't know what acid really would have said if you hadn't answered by himself. His answer could have been manipluated by you because now he knows he has support with this reason.

Mac: I agree with you on post 89. It sounded like his reasoning for thinking they are protown is because they are scumhunting and aggressive because he wrote ALSO. To me that means that's a second reason.

First off, I didn't answer Mac's question and his question wasn't directed at anyone in particular. I was pointing out that Mac was stretching Acid's words to say what he wanted them to say. Second, Acid would have had support if I didn't say anything because Mac had already voiced his opinion on this. Convienent how you overlook this. Third you are ignoring acid's clarification and twisting his statement as Mac did, but this time it's worse because he's already said otherwise.

Nice how you vote and unvote me whenever there's a tiny shred of evidence you cook up.

[charter]

Of course, this all assumes you're telling the truth and weren't influenced by charter's interruption. I have no strong reason to believe otherwise for the moment.

You influenced him first with this. I already tried explaining this to battousia, but I'll spell it out.

The reason I think cf riot and blackberry are pro town is because they are doing alot of scum hunting or at least thats what it seems like to me going posts: 54, 60, and 61. They also seem to have a very aggressive play style.

Why would an aggressive playstyle e indicative of pro-town motivations?

The way you word your question only gives acid one answer. You're asking for reasons why being aggressive indicates pro-town motivations. You don't ask if aggressive=pro-town. You're not looking to see if he thinks being aggressive means you're pro-town, because you've already put that assumption in your question.
With you wording your question this way, you're influencing acid's decision. The way you ask it, you give support to him saying that his two statements were together. I said I didn't think they were. Either way, both of us would have been influencing it in both directions, so he would have had support either way. I don't like how battousai overlooks this on your part, and only questions me.

First off, I didn't answer Mac's question and his question wasn't directed at anyone in particular. I was pointing out that Mac was stretching Acid's words to say what he wanted them to say. Second, Acid would have had support if I didn't say anything because Mac had already voiced his opinion on this. Convienent how you overlook this. Third you are ignoring acid's clarification and twisting his statement as Mac did, but this time it's worse because he's already said otherwise.

Wrong. You absolutely did straight up answer a question I posed to acidmix. There's no reason I wanted his words to say that - I already covered this above. His words could easily have had a couple different meanings. I should have pointed this out in my initial reply when you did that; I can't remember why I didn't now. Because of your intervention, I can't be sure that I got an honest answer to that question out of him, which screws up my attempt to find out how consistent he is. Interrupting questioning like that is almost never protown. You could always have called me on it later had I tried to stretch his response in a way you thought was inappropriate.

After I reread it again, I agree, it was directed towards acid. But I didn't answer it. I said that I thought you were misinterpreting his words. But for the reasons stated above, there wasn't much you could have gained from that question to begin with.

He also seems to think

everyone

is twisting other people's words.

If by everyone you mean yourself, battousai, and mac. Scum like to subtly spin things to direct townies at other townies.

[charter]

I sure do hope that you're taking responsibility for your actions - who else will do it for you?

That was the point I was trying to make. Netlava and Charter had both accused me of trying to avoid responsibility for various things. I had assumed that how vocal I was against Charter was enough, but seeing as how they still argued that case against me, I decided to go ahead and confirm my vote for him so there'd be no doubt that I claimed all responsibility I deserve for whatever may happen if he was lynched.

You're letting the two people you find scummiest tell you what to do? Why would you do that instead of argue your points further? You just cave in to the people you find scummy and hope that convinces others to lynch them?

Hey riot, vote for battousai for me!

@tinsley, thanks for a recap of the past two pages. I don't get your post 128. You merely quote some of riots posts and comment on them, in a way that doesn't make riot look too good. Do you find him scummy?

[charter]

1 - Riot
2 - Battousai
3 - Mac/tinsley/acid

I'm not voting for anyone because I'm not trying to lynch anyone yet. I don't need to vote someone to scumhunt, do I?

How am I accusing of everyone? Everyone would mean more than you, mac, battousai, and tinsley.

[charter]

I'll just tell you what I think of everyone.

So far BB and walnut haven't posted a whole lot, but what they have seems pro-town to me. They haven't said or done anything to make me think otherwise. Near and SG haven't posted hardly anything, but Near's is bordering on actively lurking, so I don't have a read on either. Netlava is the only one in this crowd with any sense and didn't come into this game with the single mindset of lynching me D1. Had hasn't done anything scummy in my eyes either, and has posted quite a bit, so I'm thinking he's probably pro town up there with BB and walnut.

This leaves us with the ones I do find scummy. First is Riot. I felt his case against me was forced. Coupled with being overly concerned with how he's going to look tomorrow and his utter lack of questioning anyone but me, and then Netlava when he defended me, makes me think he doesn't even care about anything but lynching me or netlava.
Second is battousai. He also has homed in almost exclusively on me. It seemed like he wanted to be one of the first few to vote for me, but didn't give any reason of his own. More of a scum vibe than a whole lot of scummy actions.
mac/acid/tinsley - Acid, looks like he forced his vote against mac. He gave pretty feeble reasons and never really followed up with mac and make a case against him. Mac is probably just an OMGUS, I think we just see things differently. Tinsley has contributed not very much. Your post 128 also looks like you're defending Riot. I wonder why you would do this, it almost seems like you hope to convince the rest of us he's not scum, but you also seem almost ready to vote for him if he starts looking just a little bit worse.

Sorry that I 'attack anyone who has voted for me' but I really feel like riot has a one track mind in this game. Battousai just restates riot's arguments and doesn't even want to look for anyone else being scummy but me. The other three are just feelings, there's not a whole lot they've done I find scummy.

The people I suspect aren't any different from anyone else. No one suspects BB, SG, Near, or walnut. Or at least if they do they aren't showing it. It's probably because they're all town and there's no reason to suspect them.

[charter]

I wasn't very clear. I don't vote people until I'm reasonably sure they're scum and I want to lynch them. Once I vote someone, it's unlikely I'll unvote them. I'm not ready to lynch riot just yet, though he is my number one candidate for being scum right now.

[charter]

No one suspects BB, SG, Near, or walnut. Or at least if they do they aren't showing it. It's probably because they're all town and there's no reason to suspect them.

Netlava has stated that SG is on his list of suspicion, and walnut is sticking with his vote of Near. I think it's a little early to say they're all town, in fact I've wondered if they're lurking because they have something to hide.

I agree it's too early to say they're all town. That sentence was only half serious, but they are getting let off the hook very easily (especially near). So I'll try and help out with this a little. Near, what do you think of everyone?

[charter]

Triple post, sorry.

The advantage of hanging around this time is that I was able to ask the mod a question about game setup and get a reply back (thanks Mizzy). Based on that, FoS Netlava.

To summarize:

Had is scum, batt is probably the second. Third, dunno yet.

There is no game setup metadata that says that there are three scum. Would you care to explain?

This is very interesting. While it's fairly normal for their to be three scum in a 12 person mini, his certainty of it is suspicious.

Back to Tinsley -- I'm getting suspiscious of those defending Charter/attacking CF Riot. Then again, mafia wouldn't all be so obvious together, so I'm not sure. It's hard to think about things, because you know mafia aren't going to be all obvious together but you can't help but suspect the people that are being scummy AND defending eachother.

I've never defended charter, unless suspecting CF Riot counts. I think the fact that CF Riot is concerned with what others think of him is slightly scummy (about a 4 on a scale from 1 to 10).

However, for right now I'm comfortable with my vote as it stands due to:

a) charter refusing to answer Riot's question. Why would you not answer a question unless you had something to hide?
b) His defensiveness afterwards
c) The fact that he only suspects those that have accused him (for the most part).

This is crap.
a) You're implying that not answering a question, no matter what it is, makes me scum. The question he asked I thought to be loaded. What on earth could I have had to hide by not answering that question? Tell me that and I'll agree that my not answering makes me scum... Plus there was nothing he could hope to learn from that question (which is why I thought it was loaded, why ask it if he can't possibly learn something from it, if not to twist it into an argument against me). I realize now that this was bound to happen either way, so I guess it didn't matter.
b) Of course I'm going to get defensive if everyone piles on me for what I believe a trivial reason, and if there is no one else being questioned at the beginning.
c) I don't suspect BB, and Netlava's certainty of 3 scum is troubling me. Acid never accused me. Battousai didn't come up with his own reasons, I suspect him because he CANT come up with his own reasons. I suspect Riot for his only going after me. I suspect Mac because he's given me scum vibes. I suspect you because you restate everyone else's arguments and just jumped on my wagon. You're being an excellent follower.

charter - What do you think of it?

What is it? If it is Netlava saying odd implies scummy, he's clearly being fecetious. Note the rolleyes smily. He said that after Riot or Mac asked him the same question half a dozen times and just ignored his answer every time.

[charter]

@ Charter

Point to me where in the game I give you the idea I want to lynch Netlava so bad.

You didn't answer my question either, or admit to making a mistake.

Another flawed question from Riot. Point to me where in the game I gave you the idea that there was one specific point in time I could point to where I got the impression that you wanted to lynch Netlava so bad. Since if I don't give you an answer, you'll spend the next five pages making a huge deal out of it, it was the general impression I got at the end of page 5/beginning of page 6.

Going back to the post where you first asked that question. I do have a paranoia style of playing. I am suspicious of lots of people. I don't see how this is anti-town, because it creates opportunities for slip-ups from multiple people. Although I bet now you'll start some scandal about how it is.

[charter]

I'm not going to argue semantics on this question too. This is really getting out of hand, it's like there should be a dictionary on the forum or something. I read it as looking for a specific point, hence why I responded like I did. Regardless I think my response answers his question.

[charter]

/in for restart

I'm assuming Acid isn't going to be allowed in? Also can we not have Near in either?

[charter]

Haha, in all honesty, I wouldn't have answered that question if I was town either. I was praying for a netlava lynch on D1, then mac lynch on D2 to try and turn my Mt. Everest of a mess into a win.

[charter]

I see now that it wasn't loaded, but I didn't until quite a ways into the game. I pretty much had to keep lying and try to lay low if there was any way I could survive the day and get netlava lynched instead.

We didn't have a plan for D1, and I was gonna suggest just killing someone at random for N1. Couldn't kill Riot because I'd get lynched so fast it wouldn't be funny.

I'm probably going to spend the first few pages of the next game answering all and only questions that are directly asked of me, not accusing anyone, and praying that nothing from this game comes up again.

But, we all go out and get dictionarys for the next game.

[charter]

EBWOP: I'm pissed at Acid too. While it was looking bad for me and had, if we'd managed to pull that off... There would be monuments built for us. I was excited for the challenge.

[charter]

I was godfather.

[charter]

I knew it.

[charter]

@Mac, in all fairness, I didn't think he was twisting words, but you and had found the TINIEST discrepancies and blew them out of proportion, not that I minded though...