Mini 611a - Troy, Meet Helen (Restarting)

[Walnut]

Anyone who goes by a literal list like the one you give there and lynches only based on that is probably scum looking for easy lynches anyway.

Good try, but what I have been saying all along is that apparently scummy play (such as lynching solely on standard scumtells) can well be town play. Incidentally, you say power roles is a decent one (scumtell)- what do you think of Hadhfang bringing up the possibility that Charter has a power role?

Had -- I don't like the fact that after someone says "I don't think it's xxxx and xxxx" you try to counter their thoughts and make them think otherwise. I may or may not be correct when thinking this next thought: but the way you talk to him it's like you're trying to convince a townie otherwise. You are not considering he may be scum with an alternate plan. Just the way you speak to him is as if you know he is a pro-town player? Am I making sense? lol.

I have something to say about this, but I suspect that if I jumped in before Had replied half the town would want to lynch me.

[Acidmix]

@ Acidmix

Acid are you sure Mac was lying about what you said in his question? Do you think Mac was trying to twist your words, or that he misread what you meant because of the way you answered?

You haven't posted since I first wrote this so it's no big deal, but since people have been ignoring my questions I thought I'd repost it for you.

Sorry I somehow overlooked or missed your question the first time.
To put it simple yes I think Mac was trying to twist my words. I guess its
possible that he just misread my post, but I think the reason he said
what he did was to eventually make me look suspicious or to simply
use it to discredit anything that I post.

[Hadhfang]

Then we are looking at different dictionaries. odd to me means slightly stange, not scummy.

The only word you need to look up is "imply."

In the context of this game, odd IMPLIES scummy. Why do we point out that something is odd in this game? Is it simply because it's bizarre? No, we say it's strange because it can be interpreted as scummy behavior.

If we take it one step further

, what is the definition of "strange?" Something that is not normal. In this game the "norm" is the town, which constitutes the majority of the players and is thus the standard for comparison. We are trying to weed out the deviations from the norm, which are the mafia. Therefore, strange -> mafia.

I'd like to draw attention to the bit I bolded "if we take it one step further", which implies that we need to do more than read it at base value to reach this stage. therefore "odd" at base value does not equate scummy, you need to take an extra step to get there. Furhter to that it seems you are doing that clever linking game where you link things to make it look like they are the same thing, but in reality are not. If you read a theasaurus you will find that "upset" will have the word "worry" as an alternative. Worried and upset are completely different words. AS are "odd" and "scummy"

This "maliciously word twisting" theme is nonsense. You guys are just purposely misinterpreting my posts, and adding some drama to it.

mhmmm, as opposed to you misinterpreting CF Riot's question and "taking it one step further" or putting words in his mouth as it were.

If anything, this should lend credence to the idea that CF Riot's question was loaded, as his question purported the idea that saying something is odd -> scumminess. How come you don't question that?

We had this discussion when Charter brought it up, and the consensus was that his question was not loaded.

Oh look! netlava's twisiting people's words, there's a first!

Oh look! Had is just gonna take whatever I say next, and say I'm twisting people's words!

Actually no, the only reason I am saying you are twisting words at the moment is because you actually are.

As you can see, not answering questions is bad. Now I don't think you should be lynched based on that alone, but I will add my vote on you to add on even more pressure.

My comment here was that it implies not answering questions is lynch worthy. Here, we look at the assumptions. Batt dispels the notion that Charter should be lynched solely because he didn't answer a question. To dispel this notion requires the assumption that a person should be lynched solely for that in the first place, which is an absurd idea. Consequently, batt's post seems fake. I also don't like how he subscribes to the general mantra "not answering questions is bad."

Well if bat was dispelling an absurd notion I fail to see the problem.

I mentioned it was a possibility, but to me it seemed that charter was more likely to be scum than have a power role, Also interesting is that you only notice this once Blackberry points it out.

Doesn't change anything. Were you really convinced that Charter was scum just based off of that in the first place? I feel that the sentence, "I'm going to keep my vote on him for now, becuase I'm not entirely convinced he isn't scum" is an excuse for scum to leave their vote on someone in case he is lynched while they debate whether they are innocent or guilty.

Like I said, his reaction felt too defensive to be vanilla town. So yes, I was that convinced he was scum. I entertained the possibility that I might be wrong and that he had a power role, but it seemed at the time very unlikely.

Remember this is day 1. Charter was defensive from the first question posed to him. That to me seemed too defensive for a power roll player, hence my remaining vote on charter at the point i theorised it was a possibility. I was fairly convinced that he was scum, but there was the tiny possibility that he was a power role.

I think defensiveness in general is a flawed scumtell. It varies too much from person to person.

I never said that his "general defensivness" was a scum tell, I said that his "overly defensivness on a simple question" was a scum tell. That's the difference.

Btw, had, the quote that where it says you are scumhunting for more "correct" reasons is actually macavenger's, not mine.

hmm, So it was, I apologise.

You didn't answer my question. (Now that I look at it, it seems to be unclear. What I want to know is why you think my question to Charter only leaves him one answer, but not my question to you.)

How many times do I have to repeat myself?? Your question to Charter is loaded because you lead Charter to the conclusion that BB's action was scummy even though it was obvious he thought nothing much of it that early in the game. It also forces him to commit way too early in the game over apparently nothing.

I don't think that Charter is incapable of saying "I think that BB is only 1 on that scale because it jsut seems odd, not scummy to me." The question was a simple scale question, even if, for arguments sake CF had said "you imply BB is scummy, on a scale of 1-10 how scummy is he to you?" Charter is still able to answer "1". If CF said "Charter, why do you think that BB's actions are scummy?" that would be loaded. Asking for a number out of 10 isn't.

How can anyone not be convinced Charter is Mafia?

I think you're overplaying your "I take responsibility!!" act now. Weren't you debating on whether Charter were innocent just a moment ago? PS I don't think Charter is mafia.

Why's that then netlava? Why don't you think that Charter is scum?

No. It doesn't. At all. I'm awed by your ability to bold two unrelated words.

Maybe if you read the words in between, it would help.

"On a scale of 1-10 rank his" Oh your right, I gained a wealth of information from that. yes I was being faceious there, if only to point out how absurd your argument that "odd" and "scummy" are the same. Yes, they can be linked but they are not interchangerble, which is the crucial difference.

Translation: "Shit, people realized the bullshit wagon I started on CF Riot was bullshit. I need to start another bullshit wagon so they don't lynch me or my buddy charter!"

LOL, you really think I'm buddies with Charter?

Well considering everyone except you thinks that Charter is scum, logic would dictate that yes he does.

And the case against CF Riot is based around 2 primary themes. The first is his question and the second is the precaution he takes. However, CF Riot's third act, voting Charter to stick to his guns, strikes me as a newb act, so therefore I'm inclined to dismiss CF Riot as a newb townie.

yet you still managed to bring up the whole "It's a scumy question" argument several times. Also, you say in the same post:

If anything, this should lend credence to the idea that CF Riot's question was loaded, as his question purported the idea that saying something is odd -> scumminess. How come you don't question that?

So you aren't going to stick your neck out and call CF Riot scummy now you've decided to call him newb town, but you want us to ask him why he did that? Surely it shouldn't matter to you why he did it if you think he's newb town, and if it does matter then why don't you ask him yourself?

[charter]

@ Charter

Point to me where in the game I give you the idea I want to lynch Netlava so bad.

You didn't answer my question either, or admit to making a mistake.

Another flawed question from Riot. Point to me where in the game I gave you the idea that there was one specific point in time I could point to where I got the impression that you wanted to lynch Netlava so bad. Since if I don't give you an answer, you'll spend the next five pages making a huge deal out of it, it was the general impression I got at the end of page 5/beginning of page 6.

Going back to the post where you first asked that question. I do have a paranoia style of playing. I am suspicious of lots of people. I don't see how this is anti-town, because it creates opportunities for slip-ups from multiple people. Although I bet now you'll start some scandal about how it is.

[Hadhfang]

Another flawed question from Riot. Point to me where in the game I gave you the idea that there was one specific point in time I could point to where I got the impression that you wanted to lynch Netlava so bad.

Charter, first he didn't ask you for a specific point, just where abouts in the game. Secondly your argument that his question is flawed is also flawed. His question is perfectly valid as you said:

[Riot] doesn't even care about anything but lynching me or netlava.

Since you had already said that he is perfectly entitled to ask whatgave you that impression which is what he did. your response is completely absurd, and if everyone made responses like that we could get posts like "point to me where in the game I gave you the impression that I had a reading on everyone"

[charter]

I'm not going to argue semantics on this question too. This is really getting out of hand, it's like there should be a dictionary on the forum or something. I read it as looking for a specific point, hence why I responded like I did. Regardless I think my response answers his question.

[Macavenger]

Good try, but what I have been saying all along is that apparently scummy play (such as lynching solely on standard scumtells) can well be town play.

This does not conflict in any way with what I was saying. It can, or can't. It's all situational, and you have to figure out the situation. You're telling people to use their heads, I'm using mine.

Incidentally, you say power roles is a decent one (scumtell)- what do you think of Hadhfang bringing up the possibility that Charter has a power role?

I don't like it, but I don't think it's a big enough scumtell to outweigh the rest of his play, which I find rather townish.

You totally ignored my request for you to talk about who you find suspicious. Why? Please do so.

Sorry I somehow overlooked or missed your question the first time.
To put it simple yes I think Mac was trying to twist my words. I guess its
possible that he just misread my post, but I think the reason he said
what he did was to eventually make me look suspicious or to simply
use it to discredit anything that I post.

I've already explained why this is totally wrong. Please vote Netlava now. Thanks.

I'm not going to argue semantics on this question too. This is really getting out of hand, it's like there should be a dictionary on the forum or something. I read it as looking for a specific point, hence why I responded like I did. Regardless I think my response answers his question.

What the hell. hadhfang gave a

direct quote

of you saying you think he wants to lynch either you or Netlava (both very admirable goals, I might add). There is no way you can call him asking you where you saw that he wanted to lynch Netlava a flawed question. That's just laughably bad.

Moving on to Netlava's many and varied twists and self-contradictions:

In the context of this game, odd IMPLIES scummy. Why do we point out that something is odd in this game? Is it simply because it's bizarre? No, we say it's strange because it can be interpreted as scummy behavior.

I don't care how much you want this to be true, it's still not. There are lots of ways to play as town. Some of them are unusual, or odd, or whatever you want to call them. That doesn't make them scummy. Sometimes odd can mean scummy. You're trying to say that it always does, which is not true.

This "maliciously word twisting" theme is nonsense. You guys are just purposely misinterpreting my posts, and adding some drama to it.

No, you're reading things into people's posts that aren't there, and using that to attack people. We're pointing out why you're full of shit.

My comment here was that it implies not answering questions is lynch worthy. Here, we look at the assumptions. Batt dispels the notion that Charter should be lynched solely because he didn't answer a question. To dispel this notion requires the assumption that a person should be lynched solely for that in the first place, which is an absurd idea. Consequently, batt's post seems fake. I also don't like how he subscribes to the general mantra "not answering questions is bad."

Again, you're reading tons of crap that isn't there into what people are saying. He's making sure no one misinterprets his vote as him thinking that, emphasizing that it's just a pressure vote. You trying to make his statement into the opposite of what it is is just hilarious.

I changed my mind. woohoo. Because obviously nothing new has happened in this game, am I right?

Lots has now. You changed your mind about hadhfang's vote between post 110 and post 113, between which you and I were the only ones to post. You gained no new information on hadhfang's vote during that time, only on mine. Yet somehow, his vote became scummier to you. There's no reason this should happen, unless you need one of those charter votes to be scummy so you can accuse people based on them, which is something only scum need to do.

LOL, you really think I'm buddies with Charter?

Probably. There's still a small chance he's a very misguided townie, though.

And the case against CF Riot is based around 2 primary themes. The first is his question and the second is the precaution he takes. However, CF Riot's third act, voting Charter to stick to his guns, strikes me as a newb act, so therefore I'm inclined to dismiss CF Riot as a newb townie.

Really? Ok then, so obviously in your prior posts you must have quit accusing him after he voted for charter. Let's go back and look at them.

If it will help prove my township and prove I'm willing to take responsibility for my own actions, so be it.

Vote: Charter

If it will help prove my township and prove I'm willing to take responsibility for my own actions, so be it. Vote: Charter

This post implies you are voting Charter just to look more town to the town. Another questionable motive!

Huh. This looks oddly like attacking CF Riot for the thing you just said made him newbie town.

No I never meant to imply that I was in fact taking them. Netlava said it appeared that I was taking precautions as scum. I am not scum, and my post was saying "if I were, I wouldn't need them."

I meant that scum may feel compelled to take precautions because they know they'll be "wrong." Innocents don't know, so they usually hope for the best and assume they'll be right.

Still looks like pressuring him to me.

Except nothing was realistically going to happen with the Blackberry incident either, and CF Riot was trying to make something happen.

Ok, that's definitely still attacking CF Riot.

Good point, but the way you say it suggests you feel Riot is scummy.

Well, yeah

Ok he's definitely still scummy in post 125.

CF Riot has been giving me pro-town vibes as much as I find his actions scummy. Therefore, after re-reading the thread, I think had is scum. Batt would be my second choice.

Ok, so in post 157 he's finally town.

But that's an awfully long time after he voted for charter, which you just claimed caused you to dismiss him as newb town. In fact, you directly called that action questionable while attacking him earlier.

Netlava has some other comments between posts 97 and 157 talking about how CF Riot's first question to charter was loaded and such, but I didn't bother quoting them all because they were mostly in response to other people talking about it, and well, there's plenty of other stuff up there demonstrating Netlava clearly thought CF Riot was still scum long after he claims to have seen Riot as newbie town.


So Netlava has now added blatant lying to his routine. The timing of his shifts of opinion is absolutely damning, and him trying to lie about them only makes it more so. Can we please lynch him yet? Fans of the Lynch All Liars policy lynch can get on board now!

I

think

know you're town, Macavenger, because

you put quite some effort into that long post with a cocky attitude even though you're wrong

I'm scum.

Fixed for you. Also, it's way too late to try to buddy up with me. Nice try though.

[Mizzy]

Vote Count:

charter: 4 (Tinsley, CF Riot, Battousai, Blackberry)
Netlava: 2 (Macavenger, Hadhfang)
Macavenger: 1 (Acidmix)
Near: 1 (Walnut)
Hadhfang: 1 (Netlava)

Not Voting:

ShadowGirl, charter, Near

12 alive, 7 to lynch!

[Netlava]

You totally missed the point here. You said why you think Charter's is a loaded question, which I've read from you already. But the whole idea I want you to explain is how it is any different than the question I asked you?

It doesn't apply to the criteria I detailed earlier.

Joke, right?

mhmmm, as opposed to you misinterpreting CF Riot's question and "taking it one step further" or putting words in his mouth as it were.

I'd like to hear what CF Riot's opinion on the odd/scummy issue here is, and I find it odd *cough* scummy that he didn't comment on it earlier. I thought it was obvious that odd implied scummy in his question.

Also, this goes hand in hand with my point earlier that CF Riot took a trivial early-game comment and turned it into something that it wasn't. The idea that CF Riot was suspicious of Charter may not even be relevant here.

Well if bat was dispelling an absurd notion I fail to see the problem.

Absurd notions need not to be dispelled.

I don't think that Charter is incapable of saying "I think that BB is only 1 on that scale because it jsut seems odd, not scummy to me."

Well Charter's answer was sort of like that, except he called the question loaded. Either, this doesn't change the fact that the question was pointing him in a specific direction.

Why's that then netlava? Why don't you think that Charter is scum?

What makes you so sure Charter is scum? I've been hearing comments that Charter is "extremely scummy" with reasons of "too defensive" or "didn't answer a question." Is that all? This question also applies to battousai and CF Riot, but not Macavenger.

I don't think Charter is scum because of certain inhabitants of his bandwagon with suspect reasons for jumping on.

Well considering everyone except you thinks that Charter is scum, logic would dictate that yes he does.

Great logic there.

Sometimes odd can mean scummy. You're trying to say that it always does, which is not true.

I didn't say "always," there are exceptions. But in this case, it is perfectly applicable.

Lots has now. You changed your mind about hadhfang's vote between post 110 and post 113, between which you and I were the only ones to post.

Time is not measured in game posts.

Again, you're reading tons of crap that isn't there into what people are saying. He's making sure no one misinterprets his vote as him thinking that, emphasizing that it's just a pressure vote. You trying to make his statement into the opposite of what it is is just hilarious.

You're taking things at face value.

Huh. This looks oddly like attacking CF Riot for the thing you just said made him newbie town.

It's scummy, but it also seems like a newbie act.

Ok, so in post 157 he's finally town.

Town? Actually, I am unsure. CF Riot's posts continue to seem scummy to me, but I don't think he's a suitable for a D1 lynch.

Anyways, Macavenger it seems your main points are my "malicious word twisting" and my sudden change in opinion. What you call "malicious word twisting" is actually just my tendency to address the assumptions and implications of posts that you could see if spent some time reading and thinking through my logic. As for my sudden change in opinion, well, things change. Nothing more I can add to that. This game, in general, is not very flexible, and consequently this is also one reason I was so adverse to CF Riot's question, because to have someone commit that early over apparently nothing is a great benefit to scum.

PS Vote hadhfang for great justice

[Netlava]

EBWOP

The response "Joke, right?" was directed at hadhfang's "if we take in one step further" comment.

[Acidmix]

Sorry I somehow overlooked or missed your question the first time.
To put it simple yes I think Mac was trying to twist my words. I guess its
possible that he just misread my post, but I think the reason he said
what he did was to eventually make me look suspicious or to simply
use it to discredit anything that I post.

I've already explained why this is totally wrong. Please vote Netlava now. Thanks.

Just to prove you wrong Netlava is town, I'm a mafia goon and my partners are Charter and Hadhfang. Netlava is sibling/lover to my role.

[Macavenger]

???

I hope to god that was some kind of sick joke, because if not that's about 37 types of totally not cool.

Unvote; Vote: Acidmix

[Netlava]

Unvote, vote: charter

quicklynch time for ez win lol

[Hadhfang]

Erm, Acidmix, if that was true, why would you tell us that your scum as well, since thats only likely to get you lynched and loose anyway?

[Mizzy]

This game is locked until further notice. The game will most likely be reset.

Any players who wish to discuss this with me can IM or PM me. I will be restarting the game after I speak with MeMe and anyone who wants to re /in for it may.

[Mizzy]

I am taking re- /ins for a restart of the game with a different set up, same beginning flavor. Any takers post here please so I can give MeMe a list!

[Tinsley]

/in for restart

[charter]

/in for restart

I'm assuming Acid isn't going to be allowed in? Also can we not have Near in either?

[Mizzy]

Acidmix was banned for breaking general MS protocol. Near broke no rules that I know of and so unless you guys have a real reason to not want him in, he has a right to re-/in just like the rest of you.

[ShadowGirl]

/in for restard

[farside22]

/in if you need someone Mizzy

[ShadowGirl]

EBWOP: /in for restart
I have no idea how I made that typo. >>

[Hadhfang]

/in for restart

[Macavenger]

/in just in case the PM I sent you last night doesn't count

[Blackberry]

/in

<--- is happy he was right about Hadhfang and charter ... cuz he usually isn't ever right LOL