Open 78: Friends & Enemies (Over) - before 608

[Mr. Blonde]

Ah, sorry for that... I gotta check these out again.

Votecount as of post 200

farside22 - 4 (Roflcopter, Mr. Blonde, Grimmy, dcorbe)
dcorbe - 1 (IcemanE)
Grimmy - 1 (Celebloki)
Korts - 1 (farside22)
Mr. Blonde - 1 (Rishi)

Not Voting - 4 (Pokerface, Surye, Korts, Tekkactus)

7 to lynch

[dcorbe]

Rishi: Well, let's give you at least a little motivation to post something meaningful.

I do not need extra motivation to post. Just time...

dcorbe: I meant to ask you, Blonde, whether this comment was aimed at me or dcorbe. Either way I don't really follow how its a scumtell and I assume you're joking, as you did when I asked Grimmy to get one.

Was just joking. (I meant to joke about "not having avatar => scumtell")

Rishi: Still want something from Mr. Blonde, though.

Farside's vote on dcorbe (68) seems very opportunistic and there's I missed if there's some reason to vote dcorbe (dcorbe is explaining this well in post 155 quite well I think). This opportunistic vote is the main reason I'm voting Farside.

---

Farside lists townies:

On to those I find townie:
Rishi
Poker
Rofl
Iceman
And no I'm not explaining my list. I am not giving scum an advantage

Giving absolutely no reasons <= this is not "scum advantage" if we know: it could be town advantage. Now it just creates confusion.

Bit scummy I think.

---

I'm also missing why Farside is voting dcorbe.

dcorbe also reasons his vote by saying "just feels" (gut tell without any reasons is bit suspicious).

---

As for others:

I find IcemanE saying bit odd words:

These are all decent scum tells, but I'm not sure she needs to be lynched IMMEDIATELY as you state in your most recent post. Is she the best candidate for a lynch so far today? I would say so, at this stage, but I'd like to do a little more talking before we take that step, call me reluctant or what you will but I'm in no rush to kill.

So, farside is the best candidate for lynch - yet IcemanE votes dcorbe?

Blonde: In the post you were referring to where you said "just feels" I was actually quoting something Farside said but the tags came out screwed up.

[Qman]

If you need me to go back and fix tags in the future, please PM me about it with the quote problem. I will NOT change anything said but I'll fix up tags.

That said I'm going to PM iceman to see how the post should read before i fix it' I'll let you know when the post tags are fixed.

[Qman]

Okay, I've fixed the tags in 154, the quote of 154 in 155, and the open tag from post 161. All tags should be correct now.

[icemanE]

Okay, I've fixed the tags in 154, the quote of 154 in 155, and the open tag from post 161. All tags should be correct now.

Muchas gracias, that makes it a million times clearer.

[Korts]

Dammit, I gotta catch up with this game again.

[roflcopter]

You're probably going to dismiss this as an OMGUSy reaction

I don't dismiss posts. I consider them. You should think about doing the same. OMGUS is a scum tell, and thusly, while the tally of your OMGUS posts rises, I don't dismiss them - rather, I watch them accumulate, and along with them, your level of scumminess rises.

You're correct, rofl, that FoS doesn't get us anywhere. As such:

vote: dcorbe

However, rofl, you are nailing this farside case HARD and I don't know that she's as scummy as you make her out to be. The case on her seems to be A. Her low level of activity, B. Her inconsistency, and C. Her poor reasoning behind her vote. These are all decent scum tells, but I'm not sure she needs to be lynched IMMEDIATELY as you state in your most recent post. Is she the best candidate for a lynch so far today? I would say so, at this stage, but I'd like to do a little more talking before we take that step, call me reluctant or what you will but I'm in no rush to kill. I'd like to see what we can get from our other scummy players - currently I'm looking at dcorbe, as you can see.

I await farside's post tomorrow. I think that will advance the game and perhaps be a deciding factor in the course of the Day.

pretty sure this post makes it obvious that iceman is farside's scum partner.

farside's claim makes her the right lynch. she was found scummy enough to bandwagon into claiming, and her vanilla claim makes her either scum or expendable. this may seem like a harsh judgement, but i'd rather lynch a vanilla townie and get the information out of it than pussyfoot around til deadline and have to scramble to find a lynch.

[Korts]

Okay, since a simple readthrough didn't give me anything new, I'm going to do a PBPA on the two leading wagons. So farside and dcorbe, beware. I'll have time for one tomorrow, probably. The other, maybe Sunday, but more likely Monday.

[farside22]

pretty sure this post makes it obvious that iceman is farside's scum partner.

farside's claim makes her the right lynch. she was found scummy enough to bandwagon into claiming, and her vanilla claim makes her either scum or expendable. this may seem like a harsh judgement, but i'd rather lynch a vanilla townie and get the information out of it than pussyfoot around til deadline and have to scramble to find a lynch.

I agree with my lynch being best for the town. I'm not sure why iceman is being wishy washy about lynching me. Could be town or scum looking town since scum would know I was telling the truth. I still don't like Korts comment about wanting to do a PBPA on you and kept asking you if you were okay about it. Plus his PBPA giving the some what scummy for each post made was just crap to me.
To answer my list of pro-town people. I would not want to say too much on my thoughts on why I believe them town.

[Tekkactus]

To answer my list of pro-town people. I would not want to say too much on my thoughts on why I believe them town.

You keep on saying this, why? There is no benefit to the town by withholding this information.

I'm starting to see why farside is L2.

[farside22]

To answer my list of pro-town people. I would not want to say too much on my thoughts on why I believe them town.

You keep on saying this, why? There is no benefit to the town by withholding this information.

I'm starting to see why farside is L2.

Because I am not going to give hints to the scum on who to target. There is one group of 3 in the game that if they can not get killed will win the game for the town.

[Grimmy]

ill most likely be out until monday

Grimmy

[Celebloki]

Sorry for my inactivity. I have just completed my read-through and here are my thoughts.

There are a few people that I really don't like the play of.

dcorbe: He attacks anyone that mentions him in there posts and does it in a very hostile way usually. His wagon was crap at the start but he seemed to get a little to grumpy for what a silly wagon it was.

Farside: her "opportunistic" vote on dcorde for his avatar, then after the wagon died her tunnel visioned attack on him while everyone was focusing on her. Her recent views on her probable lynch though suggest to me a more pro-town view. Could just be trying to de-rail her lynch however.

Korts: He has a general OMGUS play-style as well but what bothers me is how he instantly jumps off the farside wagon when she claimed vanilla. I know its been stated but that's usually what a scum would say in that situation. I mean seriously, what would you expect her to claim? If farside is scum than my suspicions of him are a little worse and this looks like a bus but then he jumped off when the train started to die.

Tekkactus: His most recent posts hasseling farside about why she won't divulge information about pro-town players scream fishing to me. Could just be a newbie post but generally in mafia its obvious why no one states why they think others are pro-town. The only people that serves is Scum.

Summary:

I am still unsure of where I should hold my vote. I will

Unvote

however as my votw on grimmy was a random vote from the first few pages. I feel that farside could be a good lynch choice. But as I would like to try to find the other 3 scum before we end day 1 I will place my vote on:

Vote: dcorbe

I await the PBPAs on dcorbe and farside to help me analyze my 3 top suspects.

[farside22]

Agree with Korts and Tekkactus comments. I sometime forget this game has 2 scum groups. I may go back and read through this weekend to see who interplays with each other.

[dcorbe]

Sorry for my inactivity. I have just completed my read-through and here are my thoughts.

There are a few people that I really don't like the play of.

dcorbe: He attacks anyone that mentions him in there posts and does it in a very hostile way usually. His wagon was crap at the start but he seemed to get a little to grumpy for what a silly wagon it was.

Farside: her "opportunistic" vote on dcorde for his avatar, then after the wagon died her tunnel visioned attack on him while everyone was focusing on her. Her recent views on her probable lynch though suggest to me a more pro-town view. Could just be trying to de-rail her lynch however.

Korts: He has a general OMGUS play-style as well but what bothers me is how he instantly jumps off the farside wagon when she claimed vanilla. I know its been stated but that's usually what a scum would say in that situation. I mean seriously, what would you expect her to claim? If farside is scum than my suspicions of him are a little worse and this looks like a bus but then he jumped off when the train started to die.

Tekkactus: His most recent posts hasseling farside about why she won't divulge information about pro-town players scream fishing to me. Could just be a newbie post but generally in mafia its obvious why no one states why they think others are pro-town. The only people that serves is Scum.

Summary:

I am still unsure of where I should hold my vote. I will

Unvote

however as my votw on grimmy was a random vote from the first few pages. I feel that farside could be a good lynch choice. But as I would like to try to find the other 3 scum before we end day 1 I will place my vote on:

Vote: dcorbe

I await the PBPAs on dcorbe and farside to help me analyze my 3 top suspects.

First, what's a PBPA?

Secondly, I'm really only attacking those who continue to take decidedly out-of-game comments and pass them off as case building material. It's nonsense really.

I'm sure as the game progresses you'll see that I can be a little more level-headed than I'm currently being given credit for.

[Korts]

PBPA=post-by-post analysis. The thing that I did on rofl, too.

[PokerFace]

Well I was going to wait for Surye to answer my question before I posted again, but it looks like that may be a lost cause.

@Mod-Qman, you should prod Surye since he has not posted since the 6th

Nice post, Poker. I should have time a little later tonight to weigh in on what you say about everyone else, but while I have a few free minutes now I'll just respond to what you've said regarding me.

icemanE's early comments feel alot like he was playing both sides of the fence. First he mentions the issue about dcorbe needing an avatar.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 19#1093019
Then he jumps on Rishi and votes Farside when he was originally voting rishi.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 64#1094264
Then he jumps back at dcorbe.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 37#1094937

What I think is strange is that a "no avatar" wagon formed in the first place. That wasn't my intent - earlier in the game I asked Grimmy to get an avatar too, and I didn't and still don't really see how not having an avatar is a scum tell in any way. One of the strangest things is the difference between how people reacted to Grimmy not having an av and dcorbe not having one. Check it out:

Grimmy - why no avatar?

He finds them suspicious.

I think it goes beyond that. Avatars find Grimmy suspicious.

Just a few jokes, etc, no votes. Now dcorbe, same question to start it off:

dcorbe - why no avatar?

Oh my, another San Diego scummer. Unvote, Vote: dcorbe

Note: I don't think Surye's vote was related to the avatar issue, but nonetheless it's the first after my post so I feel its necessary to mention it. Moving on:

obvious scumtell

This is in response to my "dcorbe, why no avatar?" post.

Sidebar - I meant to ask you, Blonde, whether this comment was aimed at me or dcorbe. Either way I don't really follow how its a scumtell and I assume you're joking, as you did when I asked Grimmy to get one.

So far, the reaction seems to be pretty similar to when Grimmy didn't have an avatar. Then this happens:

Unvote
Vote: dcorbe
for not voting anybody

Yes I think I see some of your point. It should be noted that Blonde treated grimmy and dcorbe differently over the avatar thing.

...and the bandwagon begins.

Actually, I play in a lot of newbie games as an IC. I'd say that 90% of them will get an avatar if asked.

Unvote, Vote: dcorbe

Someone needs to join a newbie game me thinks.
unvote:
vote: dcorbe

Those two votes seem incredibly opportunistic to me. Rishi

actually

seems to be voting dcorbe for

not having an avatar

and Farside claims we were getting good info out of that bandwagon, to which I said:

The only real conversation coming out of that BW is "why are you voting me because I don't have an avatar" which is a totally reasonable question.

It was a bizarre bandwagon - those last two votes seemed to have been placed as "middle of the road" votes, which after a lynch don't seem as important as the first or last, making it appealing for scum to place them, especially if there's a readily available excuse.

Anyways, as far as me playing both sides of the fence, I think you're talking about this post:

I'm gonna have to FoS: Rishi as well.

However, I agree with what rofl has said thus far regarding dcorbe (who, when he's trying to be very sincere, uses his real name in his posts, apparently ^^^), especially this:

rofl wrote:

dcorbe wagon is being ridden by scum, methinks


As such, unvote, vote: farside.

I'm actually talking about two different issues here, but it's poorly worded. I agreed with dcorbe that Rishi was pushing the wagon oppurtunistically (I actually stupidly FoS'd him while my vote was still on him from the random stage which he was keen to point out) but I also agreed with rofl that dcorbe's wagon was being ridden by scum. The way the initial post reads makes it seem like I'm saying I agree with rofl that dcorbe isn't scummy, but what I really meant to say was that rofl was right in that scum were probably riding dcorbe's wagon. Therefore I put my vote on farside - so in the post i express my suspicion of both farside and Rishi, and accidentally make it seem like I'm not suspicious of dcorbe. Which, as evidenced by my more recent posts, I obviously am. Keep in mind that we're dealing with two scum teams here - Rishi and Farside could be teammates OR be on separate factions - one could even be teammates with dcorbe - either way, those are my three biggest suspects right now.

:good posting: but I still wish you said it better first time around

Here is what I don't like about Icemane's response to the claim

icemanE wrote:
farside22 wrote:
Well at L-1 all I have is my claim as town. At least lynching me no power roles are revealed, which gives the scum nothing but guessing for the night. I don't think I'm reaching. Please look at those who were on my wagon. I don't think my vote against dcorbe is wrong. I say look at him tomorrow.


Hmm... I initially glanced over this post, but look back at it I'm actually sort of inclined to believe it. Though scum often say something like "I'm just a townie so at least we aren't losing anyone important", the "look at the people on my wagon, especially dcorbe" part of the message sort of hits home. That last piece of the message would hold no water if farside turned up scum, and farside seems to sort of concede instead of getting overly defensive and fighting back. Her comments about the offtopic bar discussion and wide-reaching suspicions are still suspect, but, at least for the time being, I'm going to believe the claim.

unvote

Overdefensiveness is not a direct scum tell. There was a mafia discussion thread about that awhile back and if i find the link later on I will post it in the thread. In my 'current' opinion overdefensiveness can only become a scumtell if it reaches the point where the player's responses and attacks come off as OMGUS every other post. OMGUS is a scum tell, but overdefensiveness certainly isn't.

Hmm... another poorly worded post on my part, it seems.

Note: Mod, it looks like the quote might not format properly, if there's an issue would you mind correcting it? I don't see quote tags inside my quote to denote the quoted passage inside it. Thanks.

What I mean to say in the post is essentially this: farside's claim seems more town than other claims I've seen. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a valid claim, but without a deadline in sight, there's no reason to rush a kill, so for now, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt as there are many other subjects to investigate and at least three more scum to find.

The whole overdefensiveness bit doesn't really correlate to what I tried to get across - I only mention overdefensiveness because she DIDN'T do it, so Poker, a mafia theory question: Do you mean to say that the LACK of overdefensiveness, which is what I point out in the post, is a town tell, a scum tell, or a null tell? I couldn't quite tell from the post, because you point out that overdefenisiveness, which her post lacks, is not a scum tell, but you also say you don't buy the claim. In that sense, if she HAD been overdefensive would the claim look any different to you, or would you be just as suspicious of it?

Anywho, thanks.

Yay I brought up the overdefensiveness thing because I thought you and Farside were implying that overdefensiveness was a scum tell. And thinking that way, can sometimes be a tell. But from your reaction I gather you may have just been using bad logic when viewing the claim for that aspect. I guess I worded something a bit off too.

Farside's claim was not overdefensive. The lack of it I'd say is a null element. And I think you may have misunderstood what part I didn't like about the claim. I didn't like

Well at L-1 all I have is my claim as town.

At least lynching me no power roles are revealed, which gives the scum nothing but guessing for the night.

I don't think I'm reaching. Please look at those who were on my wagon. I don't think my vote against dcorbe is wrong. I say look at him tomorrow.

That part looks like a bad borderline emotional apeal in the aspect of take one for the team and trying to be matyr. As far as buying her claim of vanilla I always see a claim of vanilla townie as a null issue since proving or disproving a vanilla claim is rarely possible.

_________________

Again, the purpose of my post was to test reactions, and not just dcorbe's reactions. I wanted to see what the other players had to say. In the early game, there isn't much to go on and so you start cases on people to generate discussion. The discussion leads to more suspicion, either on the person being pressured or others.

The main reason I abandoned suspicions of dcorbe: 1) I hadn't had as much time to log in lately. 2) I think people have done more scummy things since then. When I unvoted, I pointed out other behavior that deserved a closer look.

Now should we look at dcorbe for his general defensiveness? Probably not. But he is still on the farside wagon, which doesn't seem all that well thought out to me. Sure, she's said a couple questionable things, but it looked like people were trying to quicklynch her.

I am especially wary of those who jumped on and then jumped off in an incredibly short amount of time: icemanE and Korts.

As far as Mr. Blonde, Grimmy and dcorbe, I am curious why you guys are still voting for farside. I didn't see must justification when you placed your votes.

The bolded element of this post is good. Though I don't like the idea of nonsence wagons to gather reactions, it should be noted that Rishi is now analyzing a

non-non

senceable wagon (farside's wagon) in order to gauge the opinions/reactions of those on it. Which he should be doing.

I'd like to know why Grimmy is voting Farside. What reasons keep him on the wagon.

Despite Rishi saying Grimmy gave some reasons I don't recall Grimmy going into great depth. If i missed that post then point it out to me other wise I want to know why he is still on. I don't believe Farside was buddying so what reasons does he have.

_________________

Korts PBPA of Rolfcopter is a piece a crap. I wouldn't call most of rolf's posts weak tells. There are people contributing alot less then rolfcopter is. I don't see how any of it was tells. Being selfconcious is something everyone does regardless of alignment. And your conclusion kinda sucks

Summary: No real substance, therefore no real read. Not especially scummy, I don't see the effort (although now I'm just being a hypocrite) what with all the one-liners. Gonna have to do a more serious reread.

You have no real read after all that effort and all the stuff you call weak tells. Feels kinda like you are back tracking and perhaps undermining your own logic just like your response to Farside's claim.

do you have any problem with me doing a PBPA on you, rofl? Because if you do, just say so and I'll skip to voting you.

no doing a pbpa is fine i am just interested in what in particular made you jump immediately to me from farside.

Your reaction to the claim. Of course, it was the obvious claim, and the safe claim for scum of either faction... Damn! Okay, I see where you're coming from now.

Anyway, now that I have it scheduled, I'm doing the PBPA. I don't like your reaction to the proposition.

_________________

Okay I read through. Couple of things. First of all I would say Pokers comments about defensive or non defensive is really a non tell. I don't agree with the article, but knowing how I behave in some instances I guess it is a non tell. Now that I've see dcorbe playing in other games I see that in general he gets defensive when any pressure is added. Since the games are on going I won't say anything further about them, but I think it's just the way he is.
Finally on the I'm buddying up comment. I'm not sure why you think I'm buddying up. I figured in reality I would be lynched. Claiming townie usually does not have people unvoting. I get iceman's point on his reasoning for unvoting, but Korts is so back and forth on issues that just struck me as scummy.
First he unvotes after the claim. Then he talks about doing a PBPA on rofl for some odd reason. Why not do it on everyone. Then I find the PBPA really reaching to make minor scum points. I feel this is a set up to make rofl look scummy day 2 after I'm lynched and shown I was truthful in my claim.
On to those I find townie:
Rishi
Poker
Rofl
Iceman
And no I'm not explaining my list. I am not giving scum an advantage, but I would like to warn some people to be careful what you say and how you talk to people. If I can see something that looks like protection and knowing there is a mason group I'm sure the scum can too.

unvote:
vote: Korts

I'm glad to see Farside is making a better opinion on the status of over defensiveness. The town list thing Farside gave doesn't bug me much. Some players talk about who they think are town and some don't. It's basically a priniciple matter of showing others who you suspect and don't. But if she really didn't want to give the scum an advantage, I think she wouldn't have done it in the first place. With reasons or not. Also the fact that her belief that IcemanE is town, quickly turning to considering him as scum should also be noted.

pretty sure this post makes it obvious that iceman is farside's scum partner.

farside's claim makes her the right lynch. she was found scummy enough to bandwagon into claiming, and her vanilla claim makes her either scum or expendable. this may seem like a harsh judgement, but i'd rather lynch a vanilla townie and get the information out of it than pussyfoot around til deadline and have to scramble to find a lynch.

I agree with my lynch being best for the town. I'm not sure why iceman is being wishy washy about lynching me. Could be town or scum looking town since scum would know I was telling the truth. I still don't like Korts comment about wanting to do a PBPA on you and kept asking you if you were okay about it. Plus his PBPA giving the some what scummy for each post made was just crap to me.
To answer my list of pro-town people. I would not want to say too much on my thoughts on why I believe them town.

Farside gave her town list in post number #188.

Which was after post #175

. Rolfcopter quoted 175 in post #206 and suddenly Farside's opinion changes in post #208. That smells funny to me.

IcemanE's recent comments are looking a bit better despite the odd feelings I get about him still being between the fences. Rishi's comments are looking a little better aswell. I think I'll just keep an eye on them. Farside's comment are still off and Kort's recent comments really suck. Farside, Korts I think I'd be up for lynching either one. Not sure if they're on the same teams as Celebloki suggests, but as long as their both scum in some way that's good enough for me.

Vote: Farside

She is now at 5 votes which is L-2. She was only at L-3 earlier, check the top of the page.

[icemanE]

she was found scummy enough to bandwagon into claiming, and her vanilla claim makes her either scum or expendable. this may seem like a harsh judgement, but i'd rather lynch a vanilla townie and get the information out of it than pussyfoot around til deadline and have to scramble to find a lynch.

I can see what you're saying here and by post's end, I will have voted her, but the way I play the game, I like to see what I can get out of as many people as possible before I just lynch somebody. We won't get that much info out of her lynch, if she turns up town, which is unfortunate, but sitting still isn't going to get us anywhere either, and I don't see the town moving too far past the idea of a farside lynch. Heck, I think it should happen too, but there's no deadline. There's no reason to rush to kill. I understand,rofl, that our playstyles differ greatly in that regard, but look at it like this, which is how I play - farside is the fallback lynch. If no one does anything so incredibly scummy today that there's a reason to lynch them instead, I plan to lynch farside, because in reality she IS the safe bet - though I hate the idea of lynching a townie it doesn't make sense to take a stab on someone we are unsure of and potentially screw things up by killing a power role, which has happened in pretty much every other game I've played. But generally, I really don't see a reason to rush to a kill when there's no deadline.

Dcorbe, who was my second biggest suspect, has looked much better over his past few posts, other than this comment, which is unfounded in regards to my relationship with him:

Secondly, I'm really only attacking those who continue to take decidedly out-of-game comments and pass them off as case building material. It's nonsense really.

This, though, seems to be proving itself true:

I'm sure as the game progresses you'll see that I can be a little more level-headed than I'm currently being given credit for.

This smells like rolefishing:

You keep on saying this, why? There is no benefit to the town by withholding this information.

Anyways,

unvote - vote:farside

, and I hope we can slow things down a bit tomorrow, as today is already decided.

[icemanE]

Also, I expect to hear from Grimmy either before or after this lynch - I still don't see why you're on this wagon. Either way, let the hammer fall and let's ride this out tomorrow - if farside is town maybe everyone will settle down a bit and stop following rofl's charge horn, so I guess her lynch is worth it in that regard, too.

[dcorbe]

Also, I expect to hear from Grimmy either before or after this lynch - I still don't see why you're on this wagon. Either way, let the hammer fall and let's ride this out tomorrow - if farside is town maybe everyone will settle down a bit and stop following rofl's charge horn, so I guess her lynch is worth it in that regard, too.

Hopefully before someone drops the hammer. And we should also at very least wait until Surye answers his prod or gets replaced before we make the decision to lynch. He might have some fresh insight for us.

I'm still leery about a lynch this early on D1.

[Qman]

Surye prodded

Wonder how i missed it'd been a week. Sorry about that.

[roflcopter]

dude my charge horn rules don't gimme no sass

[farside22]

Yes I changed my mind about Iceman it was his most recent post that i found scummy. For tomorrow after my lynch I really think you guys need to look at
kort and iceman more. Good luck.

[Korts]

I dunno what's with me, or with this game. I've read through for what I think was the sixth time, and the only vaguely strange thing that I could find was Grimmy mentioning a deadline on page 4, I think. I really have to work on this some more. I'll put the farside PBPA together in one or two hours.

[icemanE]

Hopefully before someone drops the hammer. And we should also at very least wait until Surye answers his prod or gets replaced before we make the decision to lynch. He might have some fresh insight for us.

I'm still leery about a lynch this early on D1.

Again, here's the thing that weirds me out and keeps me on edge.

You say you don't think she should be lynched yet, but she's on L-1. All someone has to do is vote her and she's toast.

But you leave your vote on her.