Mini #553: Over!

[Sethaniel]

either guardian is lying- which seems odd, since wouldn't he know that a massive lynch would prove massive was town?

or, um, guardian is insane? I don't know. . .

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I think at this point it would be beneficial (except for a hammer, of course) for the everyone to vote for whoever they think is most suspicious.
Unless some one has a good reason that neither Guardian or Destructor is scum, of course. And if that's the case, please provide you're reasoning.

I'll start.

Vote:Destructor

But I'm so close in the middle I may change soon.


Are Insane trackers possible?

[destructor]

Why on earth are people even beginning to believe Guardian?

massive received a result in Night 1.

How could he possibly have been roleblocked

if he received a result

?

Bab, if I recall correctly, you were one of those pushing a Guardian lynch hardest yesterday. Even if you say you're "so close in the middle", how is it that Guardian's tenuous claim somehow tips me above him?

I'm presently leaning towards a destructor lynch for reasons I will clarify later.

Don't take too long. I'll be waiting to tell you why you're wrong.

[Guardian]

Why on earth are people even beginning to believe Guardian?

massive received a result in Night 1.

How could he possibly have been roleblocked

if he received a result

?

Woah there.

I am a doctor who learns who targets their nightchoice. I protected Khelvaster night one. No one targeted him.

Cops when role blocked often get the results back "no investigation" or "no result".

Massive easily could have gotten a "no result" result if he were role blocked. Why is this so ludacrous? Hint: it isn't, and you are just saying that cuz you're scum.

He also could have just gotten no return PM from shakaa, and assumed that that meant no result.

Bab, if I recall correctly, you were one of those pushing a Guardian lynch hardest yesterday. Even if you say you're "so close in the middle", how is it that Guardian's tenuous claim somehow tips me above him?

I wonder a little bit about this too -- but maybe he has just seen the light. My claim is hardly 'tenuous'.

I'm presently leaning towards a destructor lynch for reasons I will clarify later.

Don't take too long. I'll be waiting to tell you why you're wrong. ;)

I'm interested in hearing this so you can say why he's wrong and I can disprove your disapproval ;).

[destructor]

Superstrawman strikes again? =P

My point was that massive explicitly stated that:

No one targeted him.

He's an experienced player and I believe it's reasonable to assume that if he'd received 'no result', both as a response or by lack of PM from the mod, he would have asked for clarification and certainly would

not

have said "no one targeted' Khelvaster.

[destructor]

Where's ting?
And does anyone besides Matt_S have a reason to suspect me besides Guardian's claim?

[ting =)]

Sorry. I don't have regular internet access.

Considering the way the game has gone, is there any chance that Shaka may have forgotten to inform massive about Imat targetting khelvaster?

Would it be against the rules to ask for confirmation from Talitha? An answer would imply that either guardian is lying or serious mod error, so I'm not sure if this is a valid question.

----

An RB might be possible. There was only one night kill. That suggests that either empking was a one shot vig, or that the mafia had a roleblocker, figured he was vig, and decided to both block and nk him. I'll go check later if empking was active on the forums during the night phase to find out if he maybe didn't submit a night choice.

---

Oh, holding off on the voting might be good, bab. I think we only have 2 scum, but on the off chance that we have a 3 man scum group, we're currently in lylo.

---

I need to reread the previous day. The idea that the town had a cop and a doc and a vig

and

a tracker... doesn't quite sound right. Like guardian said though, we could have a scum roleblocker, that might make the game balanced, but that's a pretty ridiculous amount of power roles in a mini. That means that less than half the players are standard townies/goons. Has there ever been that kind of game in a mini normal before?

I'm not sure about destructor being scum. When khelvaster suggested a name claim, destructor was willing to hop aboard. Considering the way things have gone though, I'm not too sure exactly where that puts him at the moment.

[Matt_S]

CoolBot never talked to destructor. Destructor asked a direct question of CoolBot on day 1 about whether he thought I fake claimed. Right before this question, destructor said he didn't like CoolBot's wagon hop. So not only did CoolBot never answer the question, but destructor never did anything about his apparent suspicions.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I think we only have 2 scum, but on the off chance that we have a 3 man scum group, we're currently in lylo.

holy shit I completely ignored this possibility. It would kind of make sense to have 4 scum (originally) if our town had (possibly) so many power roles. The only way to test this theory (that I can think of) is to see if we have any more power-roles (mass-claim) but that would most likely give scum the advantage.

Still, Scum could have ended the game already now. This hasn't happened! This tells us that either
Massive is scum, or
Massive is not scum, but there are only two scum left!
This means that if we lynched Massive, we would know how many scum are left, right?

Maybe my logic is missing something somewhere.
Anyway, it would not be good to lynch Massive for information, but it's just a possible benefit.

Agh I figured out the kink in my logic. I voted on 701, and Sethaniel hasn't posted since then. So It's possible that I'm wrong.

Just in case I am wrong,

Unvote

[Guardian]

If we had 4 scum, there would only be 7 town roles, and moreover the town would have lost by now -- with 3 town and 3 scum alive, the moderator would end the game.

We obviously have either 1 or 2 scum left, 3 is preposterous.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

If we had 4 scum, there would only be 7 town roles, and moreover the town would have lost by now -- with 3 town and 3 scum alive, the moderator would end the game.

We obviously have either 1 or 2 scum left, 3 is preposterous.

Another hole in my logic.
It's comforting to know that we have 2 or 1 scum left, but we had a cop, doc, and vig.
Is

5 townies
1 cop
1 doc
1 Vig
versus
1 SK
1 (hopefully 1) Godfather
2 (hopefully normal) mafia

a balanced set up? or would it be more balanced with a tracker?

also,

MOD: Massive was just a doctor right? Does he also learn the night choice? I'm pretty sure you can tell us this because he died

[Talitha]

If you have any question, complaint, or comment, PM the Moderator.

But I'll save you the effort. In an effort to be a good, consistent mod, I won't be answering any questions regarding other people's roles while the game is still going.

[Guardian]

I think at this point it would be beneficial (except for a hammer, of course) for the everyone to vote for whoever they think is most suspicious.
Unless some one has a good reason that neither Guardian or Destructor is scum, of course. And if that's the case, please provide you're reasoning.

I'll start.

Vote:Destructor

But I'm so close in the middle I may change soon.

Planning to switch one's votes, and encouraging others to vote at lylo, are both pretty suspect..

Superstrawman strikes again? =P

Uh, where? What are you talking about?

My point was that massive explicitly stated that:

No one targeted him.

He's an experienced player and I believe it's reasonable to assume that if he'd received 'no result', both as a response or by lack of PM from the mod, he would have asked for clarification and certainly would

not

have said "no one targeted' Khelvaster.

What if his role PM said something like 'you will receive a PM if the person you protect was targeted by anyone other than yourself' and he received no PM?

Where's ting?

Desperately hoping that my biggest detractor from yesterday comes back and gets me out of a jam?

And does anyone besides Matt_S have a reason to suspect me besides Guardian's claim?

Sure: lurking.. There's a reason lurking is scummy. You've constantly prioritized other games over this one during the game's course. It is harder for scum to get caught when they don't post a lot.

Sorry. I don't have regular internet access.

Considering the way the game has gone, is there any chance that Shaka may have forgotten to inform massive about Imat targetting khelvaster?

I didn't think my opinion of shakaa could have gotten lower.

Would it be against the rules to ask for confirmation from Talitha? An answer would imply that either guardian is lying or serious mod error, so I'm not sure if this is a valid question.

I think Talitha describing more would likely end up being very unfair to destructor & his buddy, and she's confirmed that.

An RB might be possible. There was only one night kill. That suggests that either empking was a one shot vig, or that the mafia had a roleblocker, figured he was vig, and decided to both block and nk him. I'll go check later if empking was active on the forums during the night phase to find out if he maybe didn't submit a night choice.

Huh, that makes a lot of sense.

Oh, holding off on the voting might be good, bab. I think we only have 2 scum, but on the off chance that we have a 3 man scum group, we're currently in lylo.

Good call.

I need to reread the previous day. The idea that the town had a cop and a doc and a vig

and

a tracker... doesn't quite sound right. Like guardian said though, we could have a scum roleblocker, that might make the game balanced, but that's a pretty ridiculous amount of power roles in a mini. That means that less than half the players are standard townies/goons. Has there ever been that kind of game in a mini normal before?

In a mini, sure. Not sure about a mini normal. Although, this didn't really start off as a mini normal...

I'm not sure about destructor being scum. When khelvaster suggested a name claim, destructor was willing to hop aboard. Considering the way things have gone though, I'm not too sure exactly where that puts him at the moment.

Me either.

I've got to say, I really expected ting=) to attack me wholeheartedly here. His not doing so gives me think someone else is destructor's partner.



Guys I am leaving on vacation in a day or two, but I've asked not to be replaced. I will likely have SOME access while on vacation, and I'd much like to stick through it and get a win for the town. That being said, my access will drop significantly shortly.

[Matt_S]

CoolBot never talked to destructor. Destructor asked a direct question of CoolBot on day 1 about whether he thought I fake claimed. Right before this question, destructor said he didn't like CoolBot's wagon hop. So not only did CoolBot never answer the question, but destructor never did anything about his apparent suspicions.

No comments, people?

[Guardian]

CoolBot never talked to destructor. Destructor asked a direct question of CoolBot on day 1 about whether he thought I fake claimed. Right before this question, destructor said he didn't like CoolBot's wagon hop. So not only did CoolBot never answer the question, but destructor never did anything about his apparent suspicions.

No comments, people?

Well, what you are saying is factually correct.

I didn't think me commenting on it and saying how much I agree with your conclusion that destructor is scum would really benefit anyone :P.

[Sethaniel]

Agh I figured out the kink in my logic. I voted on 701, and Sethaniel hasn't posted since then. So It's possible that I'm wrong.

um, what does my posting have to do with bab's voting?

sorry, work's a bitch atm-- I will give you better posting hopefully monday afternoon.

[Guardian]

Posting something like this in all games:

I am leaving on vacation for about 2 weeks. I have no idea what access I'll have, or what access I'll have after vacation. Expect participation to drop a lot. I am sending a preliminary night choice (if I have one) to the moderator should night fall and I am away.

In this game I'd very much like to NOT be replaced if possible, as we are at most two game days from the end, and my role has been replaced enough.

Take care, lynch destructor...

[BridgesAndBaloons]

holy shit I feel like an idiot. Because we're at an even number, I didn't realize we're most likely at LYLO.
It takes two townies to mis-vote to lose now (probably), but I still feel stupid for voting right away in LYLO.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I just read Destructor's posts in isolation and alot of his posts concerned stuff that scum would know about. Twice he was able to take an "objective" view and accuse people for assuming the normal stuff for scum.
I'm talking about his actions regarding safe-claims and wether mafia talked before the game started.
It's just an observation. I'm trying to get everyone to post more actively.



MattS: I would like

you

to comment what you think what you found (post 707) means. Do you think this looks bad for destructor? Why?

[destructor]

Superstrawman strikes again? =P

Uh, where? What are you talking about?

See below.

My point was that massive explicitly stated that:

No one targeted him.

He's an experienced player and I believe it's reasonable to assume that if he'd received 'no result', both as a response or by lack of PM from the mod, he would have asked for clarification and certainly would

not

have said "no one targeted' Khelvaster.

You were trying to say that massive receiving 'no result' and a

result

that said "no one targeted Khel" to be the same thing.

What if his role PM said something like 'you will receive a PM if the person you protect was targeted by anyone other than yourself' and he received no PM?

This is illogical, completely ignores what I said in the text you quoted and is pure speculation to boot. massive explicitly stated that no one targeted Khel. Again, based on his experience, I'd say that he would have informed us if his night result was as specific as you're suggesting.

Where's ting?

Desperately hoping that my biggest detractor from yesterday comes back and gets me out of a jam?

Or, wondering where one of the more active players from the last few days is.

And does anyone besides Matt_S have a reason to suspect me besides Guardian's claim?

Sure: lurking.. There's a reason lurking is scummy. You've constantly prioritized other games over this one during the game's course. It is harder for scum to get caught when they don't post a lot.

Sure, but I'm hardly the only player who lost interest in this game at some point. Would I be less suspicious if I decided to flake instead?

Sorry. I don't have regular internet access.

Considering the way the game has gone, is there any chance that Shaka may have forgotten to inform massive about Imat targetting khelvaster?

I didn't think my opinion of shakaa could have gotten lower.

So are we going to entertain that Guardian's defence against evidence posted by massive which directly contradicts his claim comes down to mod-error? Sure, it's possible, but I'd ask this game be abandoned immediately if that was the case.

But that is straying so far from the point. Short of the presence of some redirecting role (which I would NOT expect in a mini normal) I

know

Guardian is lying because I didn't target Empking last night. And let's not forget who he hammered: a claimed doc.

I need to reread the previous day. The idea that the town had a cop and a doc and a vig

and

a tracker... doesn't quite sound right. Like guardian said though, we could have a scum roleblocker, that might make the game balanced, but that's a pretty ridiculous amount of power roles in a mini. That means that less than half the players are standard townies/goons. Has there ever been that kind of game in a mini normal before?

In a mini, sure. Not sure about a mini normal. Although, this didn't really start off as a mini normal...

My recollection of the 'untheming' was that shaka's problem was purely flavour.

I also strongly doubt we have three investigative roles in this game.

I've got to say, I really expected ting=) to attack me wholeheartedly here. His not doing so gives me think someone else is destructor's partner.

Who might that be?


Matt, I can't remember being overly suspicious of CoolBot throughout Day 1. I had to go and skim my Day 1 posts to find what you were referring to. I remember thinking there was a lot of suspicion around you and not attaching it to anyone in particular. If I never followed up on those questions, it was because I got distracted by something else.

[destructor]

I just read Destructor's posts in isolation and alot of his posts concerned stuff that scum would know about. Twice he was able to take an "objective" view and accuse people for assuming the normal stuff for scum.
I'm talking about his actions regarding safe-claims and wether mafia talked before the game started.
It's just an observation.

What does this say about me, exactly? Was it really a lot, too? The only metagame points I raised were about safe-claims and, as a result of this, pre-game night talking. I've explained my experience with safe-claims. And in every game I'd played as scum, I had been allowed to talk pre-game. So when massive suggested that this wasn't what happened, I thought it was telling.

[Talitha]

It's the same as the last one...

destructor (1)

- Guardian

Guardian (1)

- destructor

Not voting (4): BridgesandBaloons, Matt_S, Sethaniel, ting =)

4 votes to lynch.

[ting =)]

@Guardian.
I was in a game before as town where I kept being hounded by someone. Completely sucked the fun out of the game. I hate to think I've been doing the same to someone else.

That said, I still think you might be scum. But there's no point repeating myself. I see no harm in going after someone else at the moment. If you're the last scum, then you can just be process-of-elimination-lynched tomorrow. If there's 2 scum left, drawing attention to you isn't going to help us find the last scum.

So, I'll leave you alone for now.

@Matt.
That's true. I still haven't found the time to reread though. Why not make a full case on destructor?

[Matt_S]

I'm actually leaning more towards a Guardian lynch now. If Guardian's scum then there's no way he'd do this if he were the only one left. If Guardian's town, there's still a chance that it's not lynch or lose. Lynching Guardian seems to have a better expected outcome.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

process-of-elimination-lynched tomorrow

Dude, we're 90% (arbitrary number) at LYLO. We

lose

if we mislynch. There's no second chances. Otherwise we could easily lynch one and the next tomorrow.

We have to be right.


Destructor, either do what you're going to do, or don't. Half-way doesn't help. If you understand what I'm saying, let me know. If not, then I'm reading too much into your posts.