Mini #553: Over!

[Matt_S]

That's unnecessary. Even without meta, I'd probably still choose you. You say destructor tried to lurk through the game, but by the end of May, destructor had 38 posts, and you and your predecessors combined had 42 posts by that time, 5 of them belonging to you and being mostly catchup posts. Add everything ting has said about Imat and that you claim something which contradicts what a claimed townie said, and you'd see that you just seem to be a better choice. Remember again how you aren't alone if you're scum. You are just the better lynch. Now, since a no lynch would just get me killed, we should either mass claim, or lynch someone.

[destructor]

So Destructor, why don't you tell us who you think Guardian's partner is?

What? And tell scum who to keep alive? Nah.

[Guardian]

Guardian, I don't get why Ting and Matt_S can't be your scum partner. A more elaborate explanation is necessary.

Matt_S is almost surely a town vanilla townie. I've argued for this previously.

Ting =) I'm busy arguing that he is destructor's partner, and he's busy pretending to be making up his mind while it seems to me practically inevitable he's going to vote me.

Then again, if we lynch destructor-scum, none of this will be of issue -- you'll only have to deal with whether I could have been bus-ing destructor or not -- and like I said that's a situation I'd LOVE to be facing as opposed to this where a significant group are leaning towards lynching me.

Your case was just that I believed destructor more than you. I hence disagree with the words, 'strong', 'plausible', and 'believe' in your post.

If you're going to call strawman, then point me to your case. Or a summary of it.

Strawman. Summary: see above -- the part where you're pretending to evaluate but in reality have already made up your mind.

When you first said that, you made a case on both massive and seth. I thought that if you were scum, massive was your partner who you were distancing with, and that seth was town who you were trying to mislynch. I'm now thinking that if you're scum, besides the possibility of you bussing des, maybe I got the two switched.

First I'm busing massive, oh wait, now des, or no -- then seth. Damn... I'm attacking so many people... how could this be explained?

Wait... maybe I'm... SCUM hunting.

something defending himself against Matt_S's wrong opion that he's scum

That's unnecessary.
....
You are just the better lynch.

Again, the where you bussed me really sticks in my mind.

You too with the busing? Well if you are reminded of the time I was busing and you think I'm busing, lynch destructor. If not, who do you think I'm busing? Lynch destructor or lynch them. Don't lynch me, since I'd prefer for the town to win this one, and it seems very likely that we have 2 scum left and lynching me and the town wining are mutually exclusive goals.

[Guardian]

The meta on bussing is so dumb right now it hurts. Especially when BMscum tries to convince me that my play was ideal scum play when I lynched his scum partner (scum power role, no less) on day one.

FWIW...

[ting =)]

Summary: see above -- the part where you're pretending to evaluate but in reality have already made up your mind.

Again, how is that different from

Your case was just that I believed destructor more than you.

We've already done a page long back and forth on this. I'm dropping it until you bring up something new.

[Guardian]

Summary: see above -- the part where you're pretending to evaluate but in reality have already made up your mind.

Again, how is that different from

Your case was just that I believed destructor more than you.

We've already done a page long back and forth on this. I'm dropping it until you bring up something new.

It is different because instead of posting:

I'm pretty sure Guardian is scum. Look, des is town for reasons A,B, and C, and Guardian is scum for reasons D, E, and F.

You posted something more like:

Hm. Des and Guardian. Des and Guardian. Damn, I dunno. Des could be scum for A & B... Guardian could be scum for C & D... ah, it is all so close, so hard to decide. Well... I mean I guess I favor Guardian being scum... but you know we don't want to lynch a townie here... I mean maybe Des is scum and Guardian is town... but I keep thinking it is Guardian. Oh Guardian, I'm so sorry I keep finding you suspicious if you are town, but.... well I need to mislynch a townie so what else can I do, right? -AHEM- So uh... well, I'm probably going to go with Guardian but... these things are always so hard.

Obviously the above is a caricature and highly exaggerated to make a point. However, I think the point is a valid one, and

the way in which the manner you present your thoughts contradicts your actual thought process

is what is suspicious. You want it to seem like you've been considering this at length and are undecided, when in reality it is pretty settled in your mind that you want me lynched. This leads me to believe you are scum with destructor and trying to win the game right here right now, by lynching me and NK-ing another townie.

[ting =)]

I'm pretty sure Guardian is scum. Look, des is town for reasons A,B, and C, and Guardian is scum for reasons D, E, and F.

Guardian, I WAS doing this for the better part of day 2. I made long posts going, 'Guardian is scum for reasons D,E and F.'

Your reply was to say that you weren't going to bother to read it. I already said this, there's no point on me making cases on you if you aren't even going to care to reply.

Obviously the above is a caricature and highly exaggerated to make a point. However, I think the point is a valid one, and the way in which the manner you present your thoughts contradicts your actual thought process is what is suspicious. You want it to seem like you've been considering this at length and are undecided, when in reality it is pretty settled in your mind that you want me lynched. This leads me to believe you are scum with destructor and trying to win the game right here right now, by lynching me and NK-ing another townie.

You

know

my thought process? Really? I

am

still deciding.

Again, we've gone through all this before already, 2 pages or so back. You're not bringing up anything new.

[Sethaniel]

Wow, away for a couple days and all this. . .

So, Matt and ting both think guardian/seth is a possible pair? when did this happen? I can see where if guardian is scum, he probably has a partner, but why me?

ting, why were you going to lynch destructor if he claimed vanilla?

unfortunately, I don't know my role's original flavor. des at least got to say he was Frodo and he was unnightkillable because of his mithril shirt, but all I've got is my role.

Speaking of which, that claim seems a little suspect to me. NK Immune is often a convenient claim for scum.

[Guardian]

I'm pretty sure Guardian is scum. Look, des is town for reasons A,B, and C, and Guardian is scum for reasons D, E, and F.

Guardian, I WAS doing this for the better part of day 2. I made long posts going, 'Guardian is scum for reasons D,E and F.'

Your reply was to say that you weren't going to bother to read it. I already said this, there's no point on me making cases on you if you aren't even going to care to reply.

I replied to the extent that made sense, iirc. If I was just being "lazy", sorry (by "lazy" I mean determining that doing something is not worth my effort, especially when compared to other game tangents/arguments). I do that sometimes and may continue to. If there is more we have not gone over that you want to respond to badly feel free to bring it up, and I might respond.

From my recollection, we went back and forth for a bit and then it got to the point where I'd thought we dealt with it already. Note how I wasn't hounding that you were scum yesterday -- your behavior then was wrong but could have made sense from a town perspective.

Obviously the above is a caricature and highly exaggerated to make a point. However, I think the point is a valid one, and the way in which the manner you present your thoughts contradicts your actual thought process is what is suspicious. You want it to seem like you've been considering this at length and are undecided, when in reality it is pretty settled in your mind that you want me lynched. This leads me to believe you are scum with destructor and trying to win the game right here right now, by lynching me and NK-ing another townie.

You

know

my thought process? Really? I

am

still deciding.

I don't

know

your thought process anymore than I

know

your alignment. However, I can analyze your words and motives, and draw conclusions.

The point is well put by you -- yesterday you were hounding me, but now that I have a guilty on destuctor you "appear" to back off, but your conclusions always seem to be pushing for my lynch. It is unwise to write things off in mafia as coincidences, and me getting a guilty on destructor and you seemingly pretending to take a more moderate stance vs. me, but still uniformly saying I should be lynched, looks pretty darn suspicious.

Again, we've gone through all this before already, 2 pages or so back. You're not bringing up anything new.

You specifically requested me to explain how you were straw-maning me, and to rehash previous arguments to do so if necessary.

If you're going to call strawman, then point me to your case. Or a summary of it.

I'm not bringing up anything new, I'm just re-bringing into the light my arguments that you've apparently forgotten.

===

I think this lynch should be correctly figure-out-able by dint of destructor's claimed role. UNnk-able townie just doesn't make much sense. First of all, like I've said, does it make any sense at all that the town has an UNnk-able role and the

one man only team, who has to survive the whole game with two other killing roles, the SK, was NK-able while a random townie wasn't

??? Shakaa was pretty bad, but how could a mod conceive of that being even remotely close to fair?

Second, des hasn't played in accordance with that role at all. UNnk-able townie should play as the most vocal (and hopefully town looking) player in the game. Granted that is not always possible, but destructor's hanging back is complete opposite of how you'd expect this role to play. That role desperately wants to be targeted at night by scum, and destructor's play just doesn't match up to that.

In addition -- some have noted his agreeing with the mass claim as making sense. To me it looks like scum who have a powerful fake claim (Frodo, perchance?) and possibly a partner who's almost confirmed themselves by mimicking the townie role PM.

And UNnk-able townie should vehemently oppose a role claim -- once claimed, the UNnk-able townie loses a lot of its utility, and since UNnkT is such a powerful role, losing one of its two main draws (sucking in scum NKs) by mass claiming is a pretty poor play. Sure an UNnkT has the other possible power of being confirmed somehow, and then never being lynched or killed, but that's not much good at all if all the other power roles are dying around you, as would happen in a mass claim.

Also, comparing destructor to Imat: Imat's unsureness and towards the end peripheral play can be explained by disinterest. He got replaced. Destructor stuck it through and lurked, and lurked, and lurked some more. Who wins by lurking? Scum.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I've posted in this game twice and my posts aren't showing up. There's something weird going on. This is a test post.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Weird. That worked perfectly...

Guardian, what do you mean by one man only team?
in fact this part kind of confused me:

I think this lynch should be correctly figure-out-able by dint of destructor's claimed role. UNnk-able townie just doesn't make much sense. First of all, like I've said, does it make any sense at all that the town has an UNnk-able role and the

one man only team, who has to survive the whole game with two other killing roles, the SK, was NK-able while a random townie wasn't

??? Shakaa was pretty bad, but how could a mod conceive of that being even remotely close to fair?

A random townie? What are you talking about?

Guardian: I'm not too familiar with the concept of safe-claims. Wouldn't the god-father be given the "frodo" name-claim?

Also,

destructor:

do you agree that a Unnk-able townie should avoid mass-claims?

[Guardian]

Guardian, what do you mean by one man only team?
in fact this part kind of confused me:

I think this lynch should be correctly figure-out-able by dint of destructor's claimed role. UNnk-able townie just doesn't make much sense. First of all, like I've said, does it make any sense at all that the town has an UNnk-able role and the

one man only team, who has to survive the whole game with two other killing roles, the SK, was NK-able while a random townie wasn't

??? Shakaa was pretty bad, but how could a mod conceive of that being even remotely close to fair?

A random townie? What are you talking about?

Okay, so the SK is all on his own to win the game. The townies are part of a team. How is it fair to NOT give the SK an ability that SKs traditionally get, and then go and give that same SK-esque ability to a member of the town?

Guardian: I'm not too familiar with the concept of safe-claims. Wouldn't the god-father be given the "frodo" name-claim?

Possibly. Often scum can talk pre-game or are given a list of fake claims for all of them to share.

[Matt_S]

Guardian, you seem to have missed the parts of my post that weren't related to meta. Your predecessors posted with pretty much the same frequency as destructor, so you can't make a case against him about lurking. And Imat has a much stronger connection to CoolBot than destructor does. You didn't comment on any of that and instead just posted your annoyance with my meta on you. No amount of meta will change my mind. You'll be my lynch choice unless you can refute the points against you or make a real case against destructor.

Just because the SK was unNKable doesn't mean he didn't have some other powers, such as kill unstoppability, investigation immunity, or both. If you're going to talk about a lack of balance, you should mention the cop, tracker, docwatcher, and vig that you claim all exist.

[Guardian]

Matt_S, an UNNK townie is more powerful than a tracker. Much so. If the town believes an UNNK the scum can never ever ever get rid of him. If you think tracker unbalances the setup, UNNK does even more.

[Matt_S]

Matt_S, an UNNK townie is more powerful than a tracker. Much so. If the town believes an UNNK the scum can never ever ever get rid of him. If you think tracker unbalances the setup, UNNK does even more.

I disagree because of the possibility of the SK having kill unstoppability. Additionally, you claim to have caught scum, while destructor hasn't even stopped a scum kill, and you say he's more broken than you. I don't buy that. And even if everyone did believe an unNKable townie, that doesn't mean anything. If a townie can convince everyone that he's unNKable, then scum should also be able to convince people that they are just an unNKable townie.

And you seem to have missed the rest of my post again.

[ting =)]

hi all, real life caught up to me in the form of exams. i'll be /la for a while, but i'll check in every once in a while when i can.

i'll just skimming through though, so post my name in bold letters if you have a question adressed to me.

[destructor]

I think this lynch should be correctly figure-out-able by dint of destructor's claimed role. UNnk-able townie just doesn't make much sense. First of all, like I've said, does it make any sense at all that the town has an UNnk-able role and the

one man only team, who has to survive the whole game with two other killing roles, the SK, was NK-able while a random townie wasn't

??? Shakaa was pretty bad, but how could a mod conceive of that being even remotely close to fair?

I'm not going to play outguess the mod. And before you someone says that's what I'm doing by saying three investigators is too much, that was me hinting at my own role.

While Guardian is trying to convince you that I'm scum based on setup speculation, I'm trying to convince you that Guardian is scum because he couldn't possibly have tracked me to Empking. Yes, I realise now that when I put it like that, I'm asking you to believe me over him, but I have stated that Guardian's used speculation (about the unthemeing, about massive's role's mechanics and now about balance) as part of his case against me. What I'd ask the rest of the town to do is look over them and decide how credible his speculation really is and how much is really him trying to cover his own back.

Second, des hasn't played in accordance with that role at all. UNnk-able townie should play as the most vocal (and hopefully town looking) player in the game. Granted that is not always possible, but destructor's hanging back is complete opposite of how you'd expect this role to play. That role desperately wants to be targeted at night by scum, and destructor's play just doesn't match up to that.

I'm not sure if it came across in anyone's read, but this game was painfully dry for a

long

time. I can't say for a minute that I've played "well" in this game but disinterest

was

a factor. To be completely honest, when shaka went MIA, I actually wanted the game abandoned.

In addition -- some have noted his agreeing with the mass claim as making sense. To me it looks like scum who have a powerful fake claim (Frodo, perchance?) and possibly a partner who's almost confirmed themselves by mimicking the townie role PM.

Or... a townie who's got a rolename? And anyway, I cautioned against a mass name-claim more than I ever supported it. My support went as far as noting that, theoretically, the earlier it happened the better. We've been over this enough as is.

And UNnk-able townie should vehemently oppose a role claim -- once claimed, the UNnk-able townie loses a lot of its utility, and since UNnkT is such a powerful role, losing one of its two main draws (sucking in scum NKs) by mass claiming is a pretty poor play.

Khelvaster's suggestion was nameclaiming, NOT massclaiming.

Sure an UNnkT has the other possible power of being confirmed somehow, and then never being lynched or killed, but that's not much good at all if all the other power roles are dying around you, as would happen in a mass claim.

I had no reason to believe a nameclaim would necessarily out powerroles. It

was

a concern and I did note it. And anyway, if I'd claimed Frodo back in Day 1, do you think I

wouldn't

have drawn a nightkill at some point?

Also, comparing destructor to Imat: Imat's unsureness and towards the end peripheral play can be explained by disinterest. He got replaced. Destructor stuck it through and lurked, and lurked, and lurked some more. Who wins by lurking? Scum.

So, seriously, would you have preferred it if I'd flaked?

My lack of activity ("lurking") can be explained by disinterest.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

*Ahem.

Also,

destructor:

do you agree that a Unnk-able townie should avoid mass-claims?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Guardian: I understand now.

I have an odd situation.
The person who is arguing better is Guardian. There's the illogical part of you being unnkable when the sk wasn't. So I should vote for Destructor
Then I have my gut feeling against Guardian, and Imat's behavior. So I should vote Guardian.

I'm pretty caught between those two.

[destructor]

Oh yeah, sorry, forgot that. Yes, unNK townies should avoiding claiming. That's exactly what I did and argued against for a good part of today. But given that it's lylo and I was one of the lynch candidates I eventually decided it was worth it. If I hadn't claimed I'm guessing I would have been lynched. An outed unNKable townie that's alive is better than a lynched unNKable townie that means a scum win.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Quote your own posts to show you were avoiding a mass-claim in the beginning please.

[destructor]

No. You show me where I didn't. Stop asking me to defend myself against a non-existent attack.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I'm attacking you right now. I say you were not avoiding a mass-claim. You seemed very nonchalant about it.

Actually, I think if we're going to do it, the earlier the better. But we've already heard that at least two players have non-fellowship role names and I'd be surprised if scum haven't been given safe claims anyway, which makes me

cynical to how effective it would be.

Underlined are you "attempts" to avoid a mass-claim. If you were really trying to avoid a mass-claim you would have been more forceful. "No! a massclaim is definitely a bad idea. It will out our power roles and the scum could have safe-claims." Instead you just go like, oh, it may not work. "If we're going to do it" we should do it "earlier."

That doesn't seem like you're avoiding a mass-claim to me at all. It seems like you're eager to use a Frodo-safe-claim.

[Matt_S]

I think it's been established that an unNKable townie doesn't want to claim his role, but claiming a name is entirely different. As destructor said himself, claiming his name would probably draw a night kill at some point.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I know. I was waiting to hear

him

say that.