Mini 626 - Crew vs. Pigs - GAME OVER!!

[Matin]

*snip*
As stated, we did learn that the mafia may have some extra powers,

What extra powers would those be?

Dunno... I was referring to the darkdude's words

Now, the existence of my role implies that Scum is most likely more powerful than one would expect in a normal Mini.

Also I have considered the possibility that my immortality doers not guarrantee my protection 100% of the time. I recently played a game on another forum where the scum had the ability to kidnap, which incapacitates a player but not kill them. So it is possible I am not immune to all scum actions. Either way, I think we should expect to seer some things outside of ordinary Minis, even though this is a "Normal Mini".

Which, I would agree with since if there is a townie role that disallows nightkills, it would suggest that the scum also have some special abilities

[Matin]

Well see I was inspired by this

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... e19#892328

To me I think I made enough WIFOM for scum to target me anyways. It doesn't really matter whether the scum think it's true or not; the more convincing the more they doubt themselves...it's the trap of WIFOM!

Maybe because in my mind I always think that if I were scum I would defeinitely attack anyways just to probe the possibilities.

In addition I believe not everything is decided by night actions. If we can get good scumhunting going during Day, which I hope my claim helps with, then it also increases our chances. Not everything relies on "Oh scum has X% chance to kill power role now". Albeit the chances are a factor. I don't think my claiming would be that negative to town. If I was some other sort of important role claiming wouldn't work as it ties up the potential doctor, or I would die.

ftr, he WIFOM'd a lot better then you, although his claim was less believable to begin with

[raider8169]

In that thread he lied anyways. It did seem to cause confusion for both sides. It seemed like a bad thing in that thread as the town did lose. I guess only time will tell how it works for us.

[ting =)]

@darkdude.
I don't like it. Your claim is convenient for either side.

Your claim hasn't done anything but trapped everyone in a vicious wifom circle.

So, I'm just going to ignore your claim and treat it like a null tell.

----

Reactions to your claim:

Chenshi,cass,kison - no opinion given/sitting on the fence.
ting - does not like.
raider, ennui, matin, ghyrt - believe

I am slightly wary of the people who haven't given an opinion on it. Especially kison. While chenshi and cass have both mentioned being 50-50 on it in some way, kison's post was vague and revealed nothing.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh gee, thanks for not even mentioning me. I posted an opinion on it that it was too unsafe a scum gambit so I believe it for now. Argh, I hate being ignored on forums.

[raider8169]

Oh gee, thanks for not even mentioning me. I posted an opinion on it that it was too unsafe a scum gambit so I believe it for now. Argh, I hate being ignored on forums.

You didnt post any on the whole second page plus your post was the first thing after his claim before I asked the question.

[ting =)]

Er.. I didn't forget, I just... thought your post was so special it deserved a post of it's own for its mention!

Forbiddanlight believes it too.

*gives forbiddan light a cookie. [/bribery]

[ting =)]

Oh, btw

too unsafe a scum gambit so I believe it for now.

Is exactly what I meant when I said 'trap.' Following that line of thought will lead to a recursive argument spanning 5 pages of walls of text.

[forbiddanlight]

Yep, which is why I'm sticking with believing it for now and letting his behavior prove him wrong if he's scum. I think that's fair, right?

Er.. I didn't forget, I just... thought your post was so special it deserved a post of it's own for its mention!

Forbiddanlight believes it too.

*gives forbiddan light a cookie. [/bribery]

This, with your avatar, actually managed to make me laugh. Good show.

[Cass]

The more I consider it, the less I like the claim. I mean, at L-2 or L-1 this kind of unprovable claim would sound much more suspect. And that also is equally true for town and scum. I dislike this dilemma, I really dislike that I feel so 50/50 about it.
@forbiddanlight: I think only a scum Godfather (or some other scum role that shows up innocent) would dare try this gamble. So we shouldn't rely on a (theoretical) cop.

Darkdude, could you please explain again why it benefits the town to claim this role before there's even a threat of a lynch on you? You say we gain additional information due to your claim. How and what do you mean by that?


As we're well out of random voting:

Unvote: Ting =)

[darkdude]

What extra powers would those be?

I think we could have scum power roles. Makes no sense to throw regular goons against a setup with bulletproof town.

ftr, he WIFOM'd a lot better then you, although his claim was less believable to begin with

Yes, the situation and claim is distictively different, but I still think the basic idea of using open WIFOM to confuse and probe scum is okay.

Your claim hasn't done anything but trapped everyone in a vicious wifom circle.

I disagree. I think we have a good idea of players' behaviour by looking at their reaction at my claim.

I am slightly wary of the people who haven't given an opinion on it. Especially kison. While chenshi and cass have both mentioned being 50-50 on it in some way, kison's post was vague and revealed nothing.

Seemed to me like he wanted to inquire more first before making a decision. Though I am awaiting his full response. Hist total of two posts so far is a bit on the low side of activity.

[darkdude]

I mean, at L-2 or L-1 this kind of unprovable claim would sound much more suspect.

If by that you mean "less believable", then I concur. I didn't want to wait and drop cop/doc tells and then run into some difficulty in which my claim would be difficult to believe.

Darkdude, could you please explain again why it benefits the town to claim this role before there's even a threat of a lynch on you? You say we gain additional information due to your claim. How and what do you mean by that?

1. Town can prepare against possible scum special powers.
2. Scum are tempted by WIFOM
3. Puts players into a situation where their responses can be better analyzed.
4. Provide easier scumhunting for myself due to the claim.
5. Less risk of scum framing me for lynch.

[raider8169]

So it seems everyone can agree he is either a good guy and telling the truth or a bad guy and does not show up on a cop's investigation. Does that sound about right?

[Kison]

I'm having a hard time wanting to buy this... That's not to say I think dark dude is lying with any level of certainty. I don't think there's really any way to tell one way or another at this point, and that is the problem. As Town I'd have expected you, dark dude, to have anticipated the wariness everyone would have towards your claim. Yet, your reasons for claiming so early were :

1) To prevent this 'town asset' from being lynched.
2) To have a role in the open that is not afraid to scum hunt.

For #1, who is to say we are going to be more likely to trust this claim

now

rather than later? #2 also relies on the Town trusting your claim, and is only effective if that trust is established.

Do you know if you can be killed off by anything besides scum (vigilante)?

[ting =)]

@fl.
Yes, I suppose that's fair.

I disagree. I think we have a good idea of players' behaviour by looking at their reaction at my claim.

I disagree. There are some kinds of wifom which I think are fine. There are other kinds of wifom which are recursive and don't help. Those reactions were based on the recursive kind.

Seemed to me like he wanted to inquire more first before making a decision. Though I am awaiting his full response. Hist total of two posts so far is a bit on the low side of activity.

His question, do you think it's slightly more likely to have been thought of by town, or by scum?

1. Town can prepare against possible scum special powers.

But see, this is only true if we choose to assume you're right.

2. Scum are tempted by WIFOM

So are the power roles. Not to mention how this kind of wifom tends to make the game really messy.

3. Puts players into a situation where their responses can be better analyzed.

If by this, you mean that you generate a lot of things to analyze, then yes, I agree. Do I think it puts us in a

good

situation at the moment? No.

4. Provide easier scumhunting for myself due to the claim.

Again, this is true only if we believe you. And it helps only you. And it gives us no guarantee that your scumhunting is right.

5. Less risk of scum framing me for lynch.

Also, less risk of you being lynched. Or at least, more risk to those who are going to try.

@raider.
He claimed unnightkillable, not investigation immune. A cop, if we have any,

can

investigate him. Whether the cop will want to though.. eh, you get my point.

[ting =)]

gah, ninja'd.

[darkdude]

who is to say we are going to be more likely to trust this claim now rather than later?

I for one would not believe someone who claims bulletproof townie when in danger of being lynched. Of course, in normal circumstances, that is. It may have been possible to make it more believable with some elaborate plan, but as I said I'm not particularly good with those, and couldn't think of any

Do you know if you can be killed off by anything besides scum (vigilante)?

It says that I can't be eliminated by night kills without specifying a type, so I assume no.

[darkdude]

I disagree. There are some kinds of wifom which I think are fine. There are other kinds of wifom which are recursive and don't help. Those reactions were based on the recursive kind.

It's not what they think about my WIFOM, it's about how they react in general. I mean, besides my claim we already started some discussions on raider's supposed "feign of comfort" and Kison. IMHO I think it's a good start compared to most other games where random voting draws out for 10 pages and discussion is mostly based on trivial points. I feel we are much better developed in this game.

Again, this is true only if we believe you. And it helps only you. And it gives us no guarantee that your scumhunting is right.

Yes, a few of the reasons I made the claim were beneficial to me alone, but I didn't see it harming anyone else, so improving scumhunting for a player, regardless myself or someone else, seems like a good choice. It just so happened that I couldn't think of any way to help other people scumhunt

[raider8169]

@raider.
He claimed unnightkillable, not investigation immune. A cop, if we have any,

can

investigate him. Whether the cop will want to though.. eh, you get my point.

My reasoning behind that one is that if he is scum, he would raise the chance of him being investigated tonight. If he was investigated and got a guilty result he would lose out on alot. That makes me believe that any investigation would show him as innocent.

Think about it (remind you I believe it but I like to cover all sides)

As scum:

1. He is not night killable
2. Would most likely show up innocent on any investigation (otherwise he would leave a loophole in his plan)
3. Only need to worry about being lynched (the claim could possibly help that)

As town:
1. He is not night killable
2. He would show up innocent
3. Only need to worry about being lynched.

Either way this doesnt help out town as we are just WIFOM all day about either case.

[Ennui2778]

What is the normal course of action for WIFOM in our other games?

[Ghyrt]

So it seems everyone can agree he is either a good guy and telling the truth or a bad guy and does not show up on a cop's investigation. Does that sound about right?

Or he's a really bright goon trying to make us think that "if he were mafia", an investigation would be a waste.

[Ghyrt]

What is the normal course of action for WIFOM in our other games?

There really isn't a hardset method because, by definition, WIFOMs can't be immediately resolved. Someone already suggested that we regard darkdude's claim as a mute discussion topic, but I would contend that this WIFOM is not the 50/50 kind of WIFOM that everyone's making it out to be. I know that if I were scum, I probably wouldn't have the guts to make that kind of claim. Its a circular argument on the surface, until you consider that darkdude is now the center of attention. Scum generally doesn't want to be the center of attention because they know their quotes can be mined for lies and otherwise behaviorally analyzed. That's why I'm leaning towards darkdude being town. In any case, our WIFOMing won't determine darkdude's role, but the discussion generated has, as Ting has shown, split the town into three camps. This is good because it gives us something new to talk about.

[raider8169]

In any case, our WIFOMing won't determine darkdude's role, but the discussion generated has, as Ting has shown, split the town into three camps. This is good because it gives us something new to talk about.

I dont know if that is a good thing, it gives the scum a way to mingle with everyone else. If someone turns up town or scum in one of the groups then the rest of the group might be assumed to be the same. Dividing up everyone into groups I think would lead to confusion and that would only help scum. This is why I would like everyone to agree one way or the other but I dont think that is going to happen.

[forbiddanlight]

I don't like teams or groups. It creates false dichotomies. I don't like to see anyone pushing the idea of groups either. As for the claim, I think if we have a cop this needs to be investigated, even if it seems like a waste of an investigation. I've actually never run into a situation like this before, and I have no idea what to really do. For now, I guess just keep on discussing and see what happens.

[Ghyrt]

I don't like teams or groups. It creates false dichotomies. I don't like to see anyone pushing the idea of groups either. As for the claim, I think if we have a cop this needs to be investigated, even if it seems like a waste of an investigation. I've actually never run into a situation like this before, and I have no idea what to really do. For now, I guess just keep on discussing and see what happens.

Well, if we're susceptible to these dichotomies, we're a sorry bunch indeed. Although, perhaps "camp" wasn't my best choice of words. I just think we should look at why people have passed judgement the way they have. I'm just a little suspicious of the fence-sitters just because fence sitting would give mafia breathing room. I'd like for them (Chenshi, Cass, Kison) to a least render an educated guess.