Open 78: Friends & Enemies (Over) - before 608

[Rishi]

How quickly Rishi drops his case on surye looks odd. Rishi has checked in a few times before getting prodded and promised doing a re-read. did you get anything more out of any re-reads you wanted to bring up?

I don't think Surye is acting all that scummy as of late. I just wanted to coax him into contributing more.

Actually, I didn't say that I needed to do a full re-read, but just getting caught up as there was a couple pages of the thread I hadn't read. I'm caught up now. If there was something interesting, I would've brought it up already.

What has caught my attention is this winner from k7:

should i hammer or wait for mr blonde?

Don't ask permission. If you find someone scummy, then go ahead and hammer. The fact that you're asking whether you should hammer or not kind of absolves you from blame if Blonde turns you up town. Your defense will be, "But you guys told me to hammer!"

And I don't like the fact that muffinhead actually answered your question. These are the things I'd look for if I was looking for scumbuddies communicating in the thread.

Votecount as of post 450

farside22 - 2 (Grimmy, dcorbe)
dcorbe - 2 (killa_seven, Mr. Blonde)
Muffinhead - 1 (Pokerface)
Mr. Blonde - 6 (Surye, Rishi, icemanE, farside22, roflcopter, muffinhead)

Not Voting - 1 (Tekkactus)

7 to lynch

Dcorbe has been prodded, everyone else has posted in the last 3 days.

[muffinhead]

Ok im still use to the 48 hours prod so now I know its 72 hours cheers for pointing that out rishi.

After this Muffinhead analyzes more about the farside wagon and doesn't really defend himself from IcemanE's comments in the posts that follow.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 87#1129387
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 09#1129409
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 38#1129438
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 96#1129496
Judging by how icemanE went back towards dcorbe and rolfcopter in a later post it looks like muffin's defense was a deflection that got icemanE to look elsewhere.

@poker
Whats this deflection im using? Also what on earth am i suppose to defend? he made a good point and ur saying Im meant to keep defending myself? plz explain.

As things stand muffinhead's is not as scummy as korts but he is not a great improvment in my view and there is something I want to know from muffin before someone hammers Blonde. Muffinhead can you explain you reasoning for the blonde case? the blonde case took flight over the last 2 pages with little detail and I am wondering why you are on there. Your claim or die comment makes me wonder if you are just on there to see a claim. There isn't much to claim in this open setup and so I can see any player searching for claims as being suspicious.

Checking in.... 17 pages. Yawn. Day 1.

Let's lynch somebody.

Well first of all he comes in after not contributing much whatsoever saying lets just lynch somone no matter who they are.

Now when someone is on L-1 you usually get the most information out of a player. Orginally the aim of my vote was to get some info out of him to see how he would respond under the pressure. Now from my personal experience all of the townies that have been on L-1 have ended up coming up with an extradinary explination of why they should be lynched. however MrBlond hasnt responded yet in 72 hours.

To sum it up orginally it was a pressure vote but if he doesnt respond in 48 hours then im happy to lynch him. That is why I responded rishi and if you had a look then I said no one should put the final vote on him untill he responds.

Your claim or die comment makes me wonder if you are just on there to see a claim.

Now the reason I asked claim or die was so that if he was a mason then he can claim and other masons will make sure he isnt lynched as the masons are the towns only power role. If he isnt a mason then there are 4 scum and 5 vanillia meaning we have a 45% chance of lynching scum. Also remeber he cant do a fake claim as the masons will point that out to us. So poker, how does looking for claims be scumy? The way I see it there is nothing to lose.

[roflcopter]

erm, muffin, we most certainly do not want any masons claiming, and we absolutely don't want any mason claim to have to be vetted by other masons claiming.

i seriously doubt a mason will be lynched, as there would be at least two other people strongly campaigning against the lynch of that person, and masons are not about to bus one another.

saying "claim or die" in this game is definitely scummy.

[PokerFace]

Well rofl the bunny sees the point I was going to try and get across. All i really wanted to know was if you had a real case on Blonde and weren't just joining the party in order to get a claim and I believe I found my answer.

Well first of all he comes in after not contributing much whatsoever saying lets just lynch somone no matter who they are.

Now when someone is on L-1 you usually get the most information out of a player. Orginally the aim of my vote was to get some info out of him to see how he would respond under the pressure. Now from my personal experience

all of the townies that have been on L-1 have ended up coming up with an extradinary explination of why they should be lynched

. however MrBlond hasnt responded yet in 72 hours.

To sum it up orginally it was a pressure vote but if he doesnt respond in 48 hours then im happy to lynch him. That is why I responded rishi and if you had a look then I said no one should put the final vote on him untill he responds.

You originally joined the wagon for information. What all information are you looking for? And what townies are you refering to?

_________________

As far as the deflection goes, you only briefly addressed IcemanE's strawman accusation after it was re-explained, and then you quickly went back to commenting on Farside's wagon.

@ Muffin - You have set up a strawman with the way you frame the above quotes. You turn everyone's reason for voting farside into "she had one scummy post". That is inaccurate and is not representative of the way that part of the game unfolded. There were three seperate reasons provided for the votes. Blonde's was the closest to what you give as a reason, but it is still inaccurate, as Blonde states that he was voting her for the purpose of bandwagoning. Bandwagoning and lynching are two seperate things. Grouping all three players votes into one category and giving a single reason for it is a clever way of subtly pinning suspicion on players without actually having to come out and say it.

The use of this tactic returns you to the realm of scum, in which your predecessor, Korts, dwelled.

unvote - vote: Muffinhead

Well first of all can you give a clear reason to why you are voting me as it doesnt make sense to me. All I can do is answer what you have said.

First of all what are you going on about when you say I use tactics? I explain my oponion of the scnario and you say im using tactics with those 3 quotes. I couldve used a couple more different quotes but those were the first ones I saw.

The point of the quotes were to show that there was only one scummy post which got farside on L-1 for and that NOT ONE person had a good long proper reason to lynching farside. Yet there were people ready to end the day.

Well first of all can you give a clear reason to why you are voting me as it doesnt make sense to me.

It isn't all you. More than half of it is Korts, who you replaced, who I wanted to lynch before you replaced in. You can refer to my reasons for wanting to lynch him on previous pages. Your latest post is what drew my vote back to you/Korts.

First of all what are you going on about when you say I use tactics? I explain my oponion of the scnario and you say im using tactics with those 3 quotes. I couldve used a couple more different quotes but those were the first ones I saw.

What I'm saying is that the way you frame those three quotes implies something. You say

then people decide they vote him for a wagon

which is more or less accurate. However, after you cite the three votes, you say:

Now surly we cant lynch farside based on that one scummy post.

That implies that the reason all three of those people voted for farside was because we thought she was scum based on one post, which is inaccurate. It's providing your own reason for other people's actions. It not only ties those three people in together, but it also implies that they had a bad reason for voting, when in fact, you provide the bad reason. It's a fallacy.

The point of the quotes were to show that there was only one scummy post which got farside on L-1 for and that NOT ONE person had a good long proper reason to lynching farside. Yet there were people ready to end the day.

There is a difference between putting someone at L-1 by way of bandwagon and actually wanting to lynch that person. People form bandwagons to put pressure on someone. They don't necessarily want to lynch them when they place their votes, but people tend to drop more scum tells when they are under pressure - so lynching is not always the end goal when a vote is placed, yet your post attempts to make it seem as it that was the intent of all the votes when in fact you've invented that intention yourself.

Ok before I start I need to explain why the reasonsing for voting farside in the below quote is poor

. Voted you because I consider you to be the safest bet - as far as I can tell you have an equal chance of being scum as you do being town, and since you didn't claim one of our three power roles it's not a big risk in day 1.

Now as you know there are 3 masons in this game. Now unless they are incredibly bad, they will make sure that a mason isnt lynched. Therefore there is a 45% chance that any person we lynch today will be scum.

It isn't all you. More than half of it is Korts, who you replaced, who I wanted to lynch before you replaced in. You can refer to my reasons for wanting to lynch him on previous pages. Your latest post is what drew my vote back to you/Korts.

Well I have no control over what korts has done before i replaced him. So if I get lynched for his actions then i will be really po since ive posted alot in this game but ill know personally that I personally done nothing wrong.

That implies that the reason all three of those people voted for farside was because we thought she was scum based on one post, which is inaccurate. It's providing your own reason for other people's actions. It not only ties those three people in together, but it also implies that they had a bad reason for voting, when in fact, you provide the bad reason. It's a fallacy.

You are right. For some reason I got the feeling that everyone wanted to lynch farside. Proberbly because you and dcorbe put votes back on her and ive seen nothing really scummy from her recently.

Since thats the case then @dcorbe- what is your reasoning to put the vote back on farside? As im STILL waiting for ur orginal answer.

ty for explaining icemane

I understand that defending korts is not something you can easily do so I guess I rather expected some greater explanation about the strawman things that just addressed you and not korts. You do understand that there were other reasons people were on farside right?

_________________

And btw this is the first page rules on prodding and the like in case anyone has forgotten.

12: If you do not post for 4 days without notifying me you will be away, you will be prodded. Not posting within 48 hours of the prod or getting prodded more than 3 times may result in replacement.

Well then that's all I got for now let's see what blonde has to say.

[killa seven]

Rishi-
by asking "should i hammer" im asking is the town ready for a lynch or should we wait, im not asking who should i vote for.

[roflcopter]

i was born ready

[Rishi]

Rishi-
by asking "should i hammer" im asking is the town ready for a lynch or should we wait, im not asking who should i vote for.

Fair enough. I don't see any reason to withhold the hammer.

[muffinhead]

erm, muffin, we most certainly do not want any masons claiming, and we absolutely don't want any mason claim to have to be vetted by other masons claiming.

i seriously doubt a mason will be lynched, as there would be at least two other people strongly campaigning against the lynch of that person, and masons are not about to bus one another.

saying "claim or die" in this game is definitely scummy.

omg this is now fustrating me. First of HOW ON EARTH IS SAYING CLAIM OR DIE SCUMMY?

I never said masons should claim. However if a mason is on L-1 THEN OF COURSE THEY SHOULD CLAIM. No fellow masons has to defend the mason unless its a fake claim cause then they are definatly scum and I would sacrifice a mason any day to catch guareentied scum.

Well first of all he comes in after not contributing much whatsoever saying lets just lynch somone no matter who they are.

Now when someone is on L-1 you usually get the most information out of a player. Orginally the aim of my vote was to get some info out of him

to see how he would respond under the pressure

.Now from my personal experience

all of the townies that have been on L-1 have ended up coming up with an extradinary explination of why they should be lynched

. however MrBlond hasnt responded yet in 72 hours.

To sum it up orginally it was a pressure vote but if he doesnt respond in 48 hours then im happy to lynch him. That is why I responded rishi and if you had a look then I said no one should put the final vote on him untill he responds.

You originally joined the wagon for information. What all information are you looking for? And what townies are you refering to?

Well if you actually read the underline bit then you might explain the info I was looking for.

what townies are you refering to?

Well without trying to refer to another game newbie 584 was great example. To sum it up 3 townies were on L-1 and tried there hardest to defend themselves by answering all questions and explaining why they shouldnt be lynched. 2 of them ended up being lynched but I learnt a great deal from it.

In another game still going I put the final vote on scum whos defence on L-1 was 2 lines long.

MrBlond has taken no effort to respond and surly by now wouldve at least done somthing if he was town. Thats the info I was looking for and thats why Im now happy to lynch him.

If Mrblond ends up a townie then he has let us down by not even trying.

[Rishi]

omg this is now fustrating me. First of HOW ON EARTH IS SAYING CLAIM OR DIE SCUMMY?

I never said masons should claim. However if a mason is on L-1 THEN OF COURSE THEY SHOULD CLAIM. No fellow masons has to defend the mason unless its a fake claim cause then they are definatly scum and I would sacrifice a mason any day to catch guareentied scum.

I don't think that masons should keep the claims to themselves is all circumstances, but in this case, they probably should. Fishing for a claim *IS* scummy.

In another game still going I put the final vote on scum whos defence on L-1 was 2 lines long.

Don't discuss ongoing games.

[killa seven]

unvote vote mr blonde

I think he has had enough time if he wanted to defend himself.

[muffinhead]

omg this is now fustrating me. First of HOW ON EARTH IS SAYING CLAIM OR DIE SCUMMY?

I never said masons should claim. However if a mason is on L-1 THEN OF COURSE THEY SHOULD CLAIM. No fellow masons has to defend the mason unless its a fake claim cause then they are definatly scum and I would sacrifice a mason any day to catch guareentied scum.

I don't think that masons should keep the claims to themselves is all circumstances, but in this case, they probably should. Fishing for a claim *IS* scummy.

omfg im now sick of this claim is scummy crap.
@rishi
1- Where have I been fishing for claims
2- How is it scummy in this game?

Also explain the very first line as it makes no sense whatsoever to me.

If by saying masons should claim on L-1 in post 457 or saying "claim or die" is considerd fishing for a claim then so be it.

Im not going to explain this anymore as ive already explained how there is nothing to lose and how it benefits the town.

Lets now hope that Blond is scum and get focused on scum hunting tomorrow.

[icemanE]

@ Muffin - masons are our only power roles, and the only power they have is the knowledge that their fellow masons are townies. The last thing we want is for them to claim. If one mason claims, another will need to claim to verify it, and then we only have one mason left hidden - and if there's only one mason, he's essentially a vanilla townie. Rather then claiming, masons should be doing what rofl says:

i seriously doubt a mason will be lynched, as there would be at least two other people strongly campaigning against the lynch of that person, and masons are not about to bus one another.

Mr blond is still the way to go today.

[Qman]

Votecount - Day 1 Lynch

farside22 - 2 (Grimmy, dcorbe)
dcorbe - 1 (Mr. Blonde)
Muffinhead - 1 (Pokerface)

Mr. Blonde - 7 (Surye, Rishi, icemanE, farside22, roflcopter, muffinhead, killa_seven)

Not Voting - 1 (Tekkactus)

7 makes a lynch!

"Welp" says someone, "It's time to string this hillbilly up!"

Quickly the town gathers up the materials to build a makeshift gallows, fitting the rube goldbergish device up to Mr. Blonde's size. With a flick on a switch, that motorized robot starts walking towards the edge of the plank he's set up on and when he falls off... nothing! It didn't work!

"DAGNIBBIT!" screams the crowd!

Then some ingenious fellow decides to just kick the chair out from beneath Mr. Blonde... there ya go! That worked!

Mr. Blonde,

Townie

, has been lynched.

Factions may now speak! Night choices due by midnight, July 10th.

[Qman]

Day 2 dawns!

Slowly you all filter out from your trailer park homes, double wides, and double stacks (don't ask). You all wander around the town square taking account of those who are there, and those who aren't.

Eventually you all come to the (insert redneck equivalent of conclusion) that two people are missin! How about that! You can count to two!.

Yall all go off to do some house searchin and ... borrowin...

Entering the brick house at the end of the row lookin fer someone, you are all shocked ta come across the body of

Rishi

, whom seems to have been shot in the back of tha head. And in the heart.. and arm.. well.... you get the idea. Oddly all the bullets that you can find are strangely sparkly silver. Neato!

Yall decide to loot the house, Rishi don't need nothing in it now! Entering the house you all are a bit shocked to find the mauled and shredded corpse of .. well .. someone.. you can't really tell. However given the abundance of books on Texas Hold'em and other assorted gambling games... and the fact that he's one of the missing you all assume that the corpse must be

Pokerface

.. which trust me, it is. I wunder if that brick house meant anything, after all, there are only three in town!

Who lives at the other two?

Rishi, Werewolf has been shot!

(With silver bullets no less!)

Pokerface, Mason has been eaten!

(Kibbles and bits even!)

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Dattebayo

replaces

Dcorbe

(Player #)*4 = 36 days until deadline.
Deadline: Midnight PST Wednesday, August 13th.

[roflcopter]

yay crosskill!

boo dead mason!

also boo my towndar being wrong about rishi. it was right about poker though.

[roflcopter]

Damn, do I really only have one post so far this game? That wasn't intentional.

My original vote on Rishi was random, but I'm switching it over to nonrandom now that I've been reading a bit. He continually appears to be sowing misdirection; first towards dcorb's lack of avatar and then again for the SD bar meetup conversation.

Not having an avatar is a scum tell now?

I guess all the newbies here are in bad shape then!

@Mr. Blonde: curious why me not voting deserves scrutiny.

Actually, I play in a lot of newbie games as an IC. I'd say that 90% of them will get an avatar if asked.

Unvote, Vote: dcorbe

The vote on dcorbe is not because he doesn't have an avatar (though that's not helping). It's his general attitude. He's really defensive and lashing out at people. Pretty much every post he's made has been pissy. This doesn't necessarily mean he's scum - more likely he's just a jerk. But, he seems a good person to pressure, because I think his reaction will be interesting.

These two posts are polar opposites in terms of reasoning. If the vote in the first post was for the reasons in the second, why not put them in the original?

I'm just putting my thoughts down. Derailing a conversation is bad. Saying hey we should hook up for drinks looks like buddying up.

Is real-life buddying up the same as in-game buddying up?

Now, just supposed one of them offers to buy all the drinks and then says, "Hey, I know we're not supposed to discuss the game outside of the thread. But you're a really good player. I respect that. By the way, I'm town in that game."

Then I'd be skeptical.

At least we know they're probably not scumbuddies. You'd think they'd try to arrange a meeting during their PMs in that case.

He then starts this conversation off, which, although it appears to defend Surye and Celebloki, pushes the conversation completely off track for the rest of the page, when the roots of actual discussion were starting.

------
I'd also take a second look at everyone on the farside wagon. One post that's at best semi-suspicious doesn't not an L1 make.

d-d-d-distancing. tek saw scum in rishi's play where no one else did because tek was scum with rishi. tek never pressed the issue because nobody else wanted to lynch rishi and that was a good thing for him.

vote: tekkactus

[icemanE]

Pokerface, Mason has been eaten! (Kibbles and bits even!)

This seemed like an obvious choice. Poker was way protown - I was actually a little suspicious of him, but it makes sense now.

Rishi, Werewolf has been shot! (With silver bullets no less!)

This doesn't seem like such an obvious choice. I'm gonna look back at some day one interactions real quick.

[roflcopter]

i was wrong about farside yesterday btw, she's probably town.

so the updated town list is:
roflcopter, farside, dattebayo (rep. dcorbe), iceman

[icemanE]

i was wrong about farside yesterday btw, she's probably town.

Why's that?

[muffinhead]

Well thats a shame that mrblond was town since it destroyed my theory. Im not suprised at the 2 nks however I am shocked that rishi turned out scum. Anyways back to busniess

@icemane and rofl- do either of you understand what the below quote means? If not then I will explain it again.

No fellow masons has to defend the mason unless its a fake claim cause then they are definatly scum and I would sacrifice a mason any day to catch guareentied scum.

Now if possible we should try not to go all the way to deadline because scum can then use easy excuses for voting and there is always uncertainty since we will be rushed into making decisions without reading over everything carfully.

@ surye- I would like to hear who you think is town and who you think is scum as Ive still not seen any contribution to scum hunting AFTER 19 PAGES. If you have been scum hunting then please point some quotes out to me. Untill then

vote surye

Damn, do I really only have one post so far this game? That wasn't intentional.

My original vote on Rishi was random, but I'm switching it over to nonrandom now that I've been reading a bit. He continually appears to be sowing misdirection; first towards dcorb's lack of avatar and then again for the SD bar meetup conversation.

Not having an avatar is a scum tell now?

I guess all the newbies here are in bad shape then!

@Mr. Blonde: curious why me not voting deserves scrutiny.

Actually, I play in a lot of newbie games as an IC. I'd say that 90% of them will get an avatar if asked.

Unvote, Vote: dcorbe

The vote on dcorbe is not because he doesn't have an avatar (though that's not helping). It's his general attitude. He's really defensive and lashing out at people. Pretty much every post he's made has been pissy. This doesn't necessarily mean he's scum - more likely he's just a jerk. But, he seems a good person to pressure, because I think his reaction will be interesting.

These two posts are polar opposites in terms of reasoning. If the vote in the first post was for the reasons in the second, why not put them in the original?

I'm just putting my thoughts down. Derailing a conversation is bad. Saying hey we should hook up for drinks looks like buddying up.

Is real-life buddying up the same as in-game buddying up?

Now, just supposed one of them offers to buy all the drinks and then says, "Hey, I know we're not supposed to discuss the game outside of the thread. But you're a really good player. I respect that. By the way, I'm town in that game."

Then I'd be skeptical.

At least we know they're probably not scumbuddies. You'd think they'd try to arrange a meeting during their PMs in that case.

He then starts this conversation off, which, although it appears to defend Surye and Celebloki, pushes the conversation completely off track for the rest of the page, when the roots of actual discussion were starting.

------
I'd also take a second look at everyone on the farside wagon. One post that's at best semi-suspicious doesn't not an L1 make.

d-d-d-distancing. tek saw scum in rishi's play where no one else did because tek was scum with rishi. tek never pressed the issue because nobody else wanted to lynch rishi and that was a good thing for him.

vote: tekkactus

This is an excellent point rofl which adds to my day 1 suspecions of him. But I have never seen scum random vote one of there own of and it wouldnt make sense to do such a thing as it would be giving to much away. For now

fos tekkactus

i was wrong about farside yesterday btw, she's probably town.

so the updated town list is:
roflcopter, farside, dattebayo (rep. dcorbe), iceman

Im also curious to hear why you think farside is town cause that is a massive change from yesterday since you targeted farside the whole day. Also wondering why you think dattebayo (dcorbe) is town as well.

Pokerface, Mason has been eaten! (Kibbles and bits even!)

This seemed like an obvious choice. Poker was way protown - I was actually a little suspicious of him, but it makes sense now.

Rishi, Werewolf has been shot! (With silver bullets no less!)

This doesn't seem like such an obvious choice. I'm gonna look back at some day one interactions real quick.

@ icemane- Why were you suspicious of poker? Also why doesnt rishi seem like an obvious choice to you?



Well I still havnt heard from grimmy since I entered the match. Also want to hear what datte has to say about the game after a read over.

[icemanE]

@ icemane- Why were you suspicious of poker? Also why doesnt rishi seem like an obvious choice to you?

I was suspicious of poker because of what I mentioned yesterday - that whole thing about scum wanting the other team dead, so they have extra incentive to be protown. Poker was far and away the most protown yesterday, so I was a bit suspicious, nothing I was going to act on on day one though. The fact that he was a mason explains all that, though.

Rishi doesn't seem like an obvious choice because he didn't stick out to me as being particularly protown or awfully scummy yesterday, just middle of the road.

[muffinhead]

@ icemane- Why were you suspicious of poker? Also why doesnt rishi seem like an obvious choice to you?

I was suspicious of poker because of what I mentioned yesterday - that whole thing about scum wanting the other team dead, so they have extra incentive to be protown. Poker was far and away the most protown yesterday, so I was a bit suspicious, nothing I was going to act on on day one though. The fact that he was a mason explains all that, though.

Rishi doesn't seem like an obvious choice because he didn't stick out to me as being particularly protown or awfully scummy yesterday, just middle of the road.

So you thought that poker was scum for acting incrdibly protownish? No offense but that has to be one of the craziest theories ive heard of. Definatly the most scummiest post ive seen from you this game.

[icemanE]

So you thought that poker was scum for acting incrdibly protownish? No offense but that has to be one of the craziest theories ive heard of. Definatly the most scummiest post ive seen from you this game.

I explained this yesterday. This game is different than others - there are two scumteams. So the scum want scum lynched just as much as the town does. Like I said, I wasn't nearly suspicious enough to act on anything, but I believe I mentioned my suspicions yesterday. I'll look for the quote after this post. Anyways, my theory was that he might have been hunting so hard because the scum probably have even more motivation to find scum since they're competing. Obviously that theory is out the window.

[icemanE]

Yeah, here it is, post 248:

Though I've also become slightly wary of Poker's large, helpful posts (it sounds funny to say that, but the whole two scum team thing needs to be taken into account here), I don't see that as enough of a reason to take any action whatsoever against him currently. Additionally, if he is scum, he's still doing a good deal to help the town, so he will be beneficial as time moves forward. I will look into him on day 2 at the earliest.

I'm still looking at Rishi on Day One, got distracted. Probably won't be able to analyze that until tomorrow morning.

[killa seven]

i need to re read, will post thoughts soon