Mini 626 - Crew vs. Pigs - GAME OVER!!

[raider8169]

Ok hear me out. I am trying to understand the idea behind the game.

We are really mafia (still good guys though) and we are trying to find out who are the cops(the bad guys but I will refer to them as scum to keep is simple). The scum instead of killing us will arrest us. From the discription I take it that is a fate just as bad as death. So as darkdude can not be arrested I see that as he can still be killed if we have a night time killer role on our side. Does anyone disagree with this?

[Cubsfan4ever]

I think if darkdude is town, his reasons for claiming are rather bizarre. What good comes out of it? An unkillable townie won't be targetted by scum now? Great. We want him to be scum-targetted if that's the case so we can avoid losing another town vote during the day. I actually am more suspicious of him now to be a Godfather so he can turn up innocent in an investigation and become the town becomes leery to lynch him down the line for risk of losing his ability in an endgame. Don't like it at all.

[Matin]

I think I shall join those who will treat DD's claim as a null-tell. Just let him scumhunt with the rest of the town for now.

There's one thing Darkdude said that disturbed me. A possible contradiction:

It says that I can't be eliminated by night kills without specifying a type,

But in his claim-post he said:

I cannot be arrested by the rats

And that doesn't seem to be the same thing to me. This could just be distracting flavor, or it could be a slip-up.

That flavor text certainly sounds to me like a vig or sk would NK him just fine (I assume they don't 'arrest').

Good catch, those are very different types of actions. And the second mention was when he was asked specifically about a vig kill by Kison which he might not have thought of when claiming.

If it's not just an innocent mistake, either he's scum whose trying to dissuade a potential vig from targeting him OR he's town trying not to waste a potential vig kill. I think the former makes more sense frankly..

fos: Dark Dude

[The Fonz]

I think it's clearly worth not lynching him today, as tonight a potential vig can test it.

The other problem, of course, is EVERY SINGLE ROLE that is not a cop or doc that claims makes finding those (if they exist) easier.

[raider8169]

I think it's clearly worth not lynching him today, as tonight a potential vig can test it.

I agree, unless of course he does something completely scummy.

[Ennui2778]

(don't speculate on that, though)

Perhaps darkdude was claiming to get others to claim as well, I don't believe this has been suggested, but while Darkdude clearly has a very powerful role, there could be a counterbalance to his power.

Are you saying that you think as scum he was hoping another BPV would counterclaim? That would be suicide with very little payoff if that were the case. If that's not what you're saying, then I'm not reading you clearly.

I was just saying that there's probably an equally powerful person on the side opposed to DD, whichever one that may be. And it may not be suicide, a person with a similar role to claim could just as well say that he was town and we'd be faced with yet another variety of WIFOM.

[cicero]

Day One Vote Count 3

[/b]

raider8169[1] (Ting =))
Forbiddenlight[1] (Kison)
chenhsi[1] (Ghyrt)

Not Voting[9] (chenhsi, Cubsfan4ever, The Fonz, darkdude, Ennui2778, Cass, Matin, Forbiddenlight, raider8169)

With 12 Alive 7 will lynch

[darkdude]

I think I shall join those who will treat DD's claim as a null-tell. Just let him scumhunt with the rest of the town for now.

There's one thing Darkdude said that disturbed me. A possible contradiction:

It says that I can't be eliminated by night kills without specifying a type,

But in his claim-post he said:

I cannot be arrested by the rats

And that doesn't seem to be the same thing to me. This could just be distracting flavor, or it could be a slip-up.

That flavor text certainly sounds to me like a vig or sk would NK him just fine (I assume they don't 'arrest').

The first quote was me paraphrasing. I am aware that flavour-wise in this game, night kills won't really be "kills" but "cop arrests", because this is what the flavour in my role message says. Seeing as there's no flavour text in the vanilla town role message to indicate this, I didn't want to confuse anyone by talking about being "arrest-immune", since I'm pretty sure they are the same as night kills.

Game-wise my role message says I'm immune to all night attacks. So I'm pretty sure I get similar protection against vig/sk attacks.

I think if darkdude is town, his reasons for claiming are rather bizarre. What good comes out of it? An unkillable townie won't be targetted by scum now? Great. We want him to be scum-targetted if that's the case so we can avoid losing another town vote during the day. I actually am more suspicious of him now to be a Godfather so he can turn up innocent in an investigation and become the town becomes leery to lynch him down the line for risk of losing his ability in an endgame. Don't like it at all.

Thanks for posting. So what do you suggest we do about my claim?

[raider8169]

(don't speculate on that, though)

Perhaps darkdude was claiming to get others to claim as well, I don't believe this has been suggested, but while Darkdude clearly has a very powerful role, there could be a counterbalance to his power.

Are you saying that you think as scum he was hoping another BPV would counterclaim? That would be suicide with very little payoff if that were the case. If that's not what you're saying, then I'm not reading you clearly.

I was just saying that there's probably an equally powerful person on the side opposed to DD, whichever one that may be. And it may not be suicide, a person with a similar role to claim could just as well say that he was town and we'd be faced with yet another variety of WIFOM.

Are you saying your role is the opposite or you know of what could take him out at night time?

[Kison]

Please do not fish for Ennui's role. Ennui, please do not hint at your role should you have one(unless you're scum, I'll let you hint at that). Please realize a BPV _counterbalance_ role, whatever that should be, would be in the hands of scum because a BPV is a Town role. So if scum have an offset with, say, a roleblocker, they're not going to jump up and down shouting 'look at me!' On the flipside, we've all pretty much come to the conclusion that should dark d00d be lying, he's likely a godfatherish type of role. What's the counterbalance to a Godfather? The hell if I know - it could be any variation of roles. This line of discussion is not beneficial and trying to get info on people's roles as a result is only going to be detrimental to us.

So...

Unvote

Vote : raider8169

[ting =)]

Man... that's a lot of stuff.

IF he is scum for this to have any chance of working he would need to be the godfather, that in itself would make him non night killable.

Er, you do know what a godfather is, right? They turn up innocent on investigation. That's all.

@darkdude-has-a-plan-which-we-should-try thing.

Having a town with an open role that isn't afraid to speak against scum seems like a much better option. And personally, making elaborate plans isn't my forte, so I just like to make use of my blunt and to-the-point playstyle to scumhunt. By claiming now I have a easier time to go around scumhunting since my intentions are open for all to see.

Where there, is the plan? Even darkdude said he had no plan,

I think that is just plan a bad idea. If we are to find out one way or the other we have to decide that as a group now. Either give him what he is asking for (some leeway to pick out scum and back him up when its needed) or we should lynch him now and be done with it. I say lets give him some room to work with, you dont agree I am taking it.

I already said I'm viewing his claim as a null tell. I'm not going to decide whether he's town or scum based on his claim.

Why are you pushing so hard for him? You realize you're the only player to have brought up an ultimatum-ish, 'we need to decide NOW,' right? I don't have time now, but when I do, I'll make a post quoting stuff from you and him that make me iffy about you both.

You agree that discussions and reactions are good, but you think that the discussion spawned by my claim is bad? Would you rather have us debate on trivial things just like how most games start when people get stuck on random voting for 10 pages on Day 1? I don't understand you point yet.

No, I clarified this already. I like the discussions based on how people reacted to it. I don't like the discussions spawning from the claim itself.

Uh...I don't understand where you get this from. Raider never said "he claim NK immune... = he is investigation immune". I think it's pretty valid to suspect me to be a godfather if I am scum. It ISN'T based on my claim of NK immunity, rather the effect that my claim had on me, which was to put me into the spotlight.

So it seems everyone can agree he is either a good guy and telling the truth

or a bad guy and does not show up on a cop's investigation. Does that sound about right?

You claimed nk-immunity. He said investigation-immunity. Suspecting a godfather is fine. Saying

everyone

agrees to either you being a good guy or a godfather? No one even brought it up.

[darkdude]

Raider seems to have a love for clear consensus.

Please do not fish for Ennui's role. Ennui, please do not hint at your role should you have one(unless you're scum, I'll let you hint at that). Please realize a BPV _counterbalance_ role, whatever that should be, would be in the hands of scum because a BPV is a Town role. So if scum have an offset with, say, a roleblocker, they're not going to jump up and down shouting 'look at me!' On the flipside, we've all pretty much come to the conclusion that should dark d00d be lying, he's likely a godfatherish type of role. What's the counterbalance to a Godfather? The hell if I know - it could be any variation of roles. This line of discussion is not beneficial and trying to get info on people's roles as a result is only going to be detrimental to us.

Now that reminded me of something I was suspecting. Raider seems to be trying to use my claim as a starting point to probe for his own interests. As pointed out many times now, he first asked for a what everyone should agree about my claim. Now he's trying to probe the setup.

But it still doesn't make much sense if he's doing this because he is scum. That would imply he does not know of a role in his faction that could counter me.

@ Ting

Yeah I think I see your point now. I got stuck on the semantics earlier on

[raider8169]

@Kison, you are reading too much into it. I was asking if he thought he had the opposite role. A yes answer would give us a one or the other is scum and that would help town. The other would be what would take him out as in if he is town what scum role could do it, and if he is scum what town could do without having to lynch. You jumped the gun on that one. This seems more like him trying to tell his scum buddies what to do. So as a non-OMGUS

Unvote, Vote Kison

@Ting, read my posts, I answered everything more then once. You are ignoring key parts. If he is the god father then as scum he would not pick himself to be nk'd. That would make him non night killable. As I also said before if we have an SK or town night kill role that might be able to take him out, we just dont know though.

Everyone needs to agree to move on so either he can try and find scum as that was his plan. I dont think town members would disagree on this point. The only thing I was asking the town for was to give him a chance and not to lynch him today based on the claim. At this point either do it or not but based on the claim alone by vote will not go that way.

[darkdude]

@Kison, you are reading too much into it. I was asking if he thought he had the opposite role. A yes answer would give us a one or the other is scum and that would help town. The other would be what would take him out as in if he is town what scum role could do it, and if he is scum what town could do without having to lynch. You jumped the gun on that one. This seems more like him trying to tell his scum buddies what to do. So as a non-OMGUS Unvote, Vote Kison

Wait, so you're saying if there's a "counter bulletproof" role, then it would make sense that the two roles are in different factions, right?

I think it wasn't a bad plan.

[raider8169]

Wait, so you're saying if there's a "counter bulletproof" role, then it would make sense that the two roles are in different factions, right?

I think it wasn't a bad plan.

That was the idea.

[Kison]

I'm sad to say I'm actually going to concede on this.

Just took a look at the Wiki and there is, in fact, a Bulletproof nullifying role.

I think I understand. Ennui was suggesting that if DD is scum, he may be that nullifying role trying to out the BPV in order to disable it, whereas Raider was trying to get Ennui to admit to being that very role. Keep in mind that had she admitted to it, she would be admitting to being scum, more or less. I do not think she would have done that. But, the fact she suggests that she knows of a countering role when I hadn't even known of one myself after being here for over a year has me wondering. Of course, that all depends on whether DD is actually telling the truth, and I could just be an ignorant idiot.

Unvote

[Ennui2778]

@ above- first, I'm a guy, sorry lol.
second, I'm not claiming anything. I just thought it would be a tad unbalancing if it turns out that we have this nigh-untouchable character with no "yin to his yang" as the saying goes.

I too was not aware of an existing anti-bulletproof role, but it only made sense given the circumstances DD is under. Truth be told, that was just a spitball and the allegations of lurking upon me played no small part in my motivation to write the passage.

[Cass]

I think I understand. Ennui was suggesting that if DD is scum, he may be that nullifying role trying to out the BPV in order to disable it, whereas Raider was trying to get Ennui to admit to being that very role.

That scenario seems extremely unlikely. A scum sacrificing himself day 1 for the very slight chance of a counterclaim? With at least a 50% chance of being lynched? And if it was true, I don't think DD would be the anti-bulletproof, he would be a goon.

All this specualtion is getting pretty pointless. Most of us agree that the claim is a null-tell. None of the reactions seem particularly scummy to me. And there is very little voting going on. So I shall

Vote: Chenhsi

for contributing nothing as yet, making very few, very brief posts and yet commenting on other players lurking.

[Cass]

[quote=DarkDude]I disagree. I think we have a good idea of players' behaviour by looking at their reaction at my claim. [/quote]
And, does anyone's behaviour seem scummy to you?

[Kison]

I think I understand. Ennui was suggesting that if DD is scum, he may be that nullifying role trying to out the BPV in order to disable it, whereas Raider was trying to get Ennui to admit to being that very role.

That scenario seems extremely unlikely. A scum sacrificing himself day 1 for the very slight chance of a counterclaim? With at least a 50% chance of being lynched? And if it was true, I don't think DD would be the anti-bulletproof, he would be a goon.

Yes, I agree. But what Raider did looks less like fishing and more like plotting a useless trap now that I look back at it.

All this specualtion is getting pretty pointless.

Pretty much agree with this.

[Cass]

I looked at Chenhsi in a few other games, and it seems these short posts, being confused and/or not paying a lot of attention is his playstyle. Not very helpful to the town. I'll leave my vote on him for now, to see if that inspires him to pay a little more attention.

[raider8169]

Yes, I agree. But what Raider did looks less like fishing and more like plotting a useless trap now that I look back at it.

Honestly I wasnt trying to fish I was just looking for more informaiton to find out what possible roles could be out there. I admite the best case was that we would know either one of them or the other would have been town and one would have been scum. Which one would have been witch would have been our job to figure out.

I have read that each game can make up new roles so even if you have played for years or just starting new things can come up.

[darkdude]

Honestly I wasnt trying to fish I was just looking for more informaiton to find out what possible roles could be out there.

Isn't that the same thing?

I'm not sure what to do with Chenhsi, since usually it is difficult to change someone's playstyle. The way he is now makes it very difficult for anyone to get any read on him. If it helps, we can try pressuring him. However, Cubsfan is also inactive, and from another quick game search it seems like he does write paragraphs occasionally . Therefore I think if we want to pressure inactives voting on Cubsfan may yield better result.

Vote: Cubsfan4ever

I don't have any real suspects yet. I only have noted that Forbidden light seems to have a shift of position and Raider made some weird moves early on. Ennui is semi-active. He's not posting much content but he seems to be at least thinking a bit.

[raider8169]

Honestly I wasnt trying to fish I was just looking for more informaiton to find out what possible roles could be out there.

Isn't that the same thing?

I dont think so I concider fishing trying to either what role one person is or who has a certian role. As it seems some people have odd roles, what I was trying to do is figure out what sorts of unique abilities could be out there.

[ting =)]

@raider.

If he is the god father then as scum he would not pick himself to be nk'd. That would make him non night killable.

As I also said before if we have an SK or town night kill role that might be able to take him out, we just dont know though.

Dude, by this argument, you might as well call

all

scum, vigs and sk nk-immune.

You don't even know we have a godfather either, but you don't seem to have a problem with that.

Is there a point you're trying to make with this back and forth?