Mini #553: Over!

[Guardian]

Quite busy.

Quite frustrated with Matt_S's stubbornness, and pedantic nature. I've already went back and forth with you on some of the stuff, or have already done it and that's why I'm not going to bother to quote and respond to it. If I've missed something that doesn't fit into these categories, please ask it again.

Lots of what you are asking me to say has been said, and when you ask me to do X, and I don't do X again since I've done X, and you respond "Yeah gee, you're scum, since I won't be convinced unless you do X and you ignore my requests to do X." it gets frustrating as anything.

If this response annoys you Matt_S, you're completely within your rights to want to lynch me for it. You're also completely within your rights to re-read my posts in isolation and see how I've already made a case on destructor and defended Imat's actions, and re-evaluate the game instead of beating the same drum over and over.

One thing I do think is worth responding to:

Then I have my gut feeling against Guardian, and Imat's behavior. So I should vote Guardian.

I'm all about gut. It can be a legitimate scum hunting tool, and townies use it and scum lie about it alike.

However, sometimes it is useful to try and quantify gut, for us to understand it and try to both evaluate the likelihood your gut is right, and the likelihood you are scum making this gut up.

To all: Imat's behavior I think I've explained. Any further questions there, ask them.

[destructor]

I know. I was waiting to hear

him

say that.

I

did

say that. Matt was repeating exactly what I said:

Khelvaster's suggestion was nameclaiming, NOT massclaiming.

...

And anyway, if I'd claimed Frodo back in Day 1, do you think I

wouldn't

have drawn a nightkill at some point?

and

Yes, unNK townies should avoiding claiming.

What were you waiting for?

Seth, what are you thoughts? Anything more than "Guardian or des could be scum"?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

V/LA from Saturday the 12th to Saturday 19th. I won't be as busy as last time, and after I come back I'm here the rest of summer

[Matt_S]

Guardian: You accuse destructor of lurking yet ignore your predecessors' lurking. That's what I want you to respond to.

[Sethaniel]

Cost-benefit analysis: what do either guardian or des gain from lying to us today?

if we lynch des and he's town, we'll know guardian's scum and lynch him tomorrow.

if we lynch guardian and he's town, we'll figure des was lying and lynch him tomorrow.

Do both of these scenarios seem to suggest that there are two scum left, or only guardianscum?

Guardian, why did you choose des to track last night?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

^
don't like this.

[Matt_S]

Cost-benefit analysis: what do either guardian or des gain from lying to us today?

if we lynch des and he's town, we'll know guardian's scum and lynch him tomorrow.

if we lynch guardian and he's town, we'll figure des was lying and lynch him tomorrow.

Do both of these scenarios seem to suggest that there are two scum left, or only guardianscum?

If Guardian's the only scum left, he's dead meat, so we can assume that if he's scum, then he has a partner. Destructor could have a partner, but it's not certain. I've used this point before, but Guardian hasn't acknowledged it as legitimate.

[Sethaniel]

guardianscum's actions only seem to make sense if he has a partner.

descum's actions I think are possible even if he's the only scum left. If des is the only scum left, town wins no matter what happens with this lynch, doesn't it?

I don't like bab's "don't like" post with no explanation.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

there is no explanation. There was something fishy about your post. It was a vibe that I didn't like it.

Since it is 4 votes to lynch, there needs to be 3 more votes on either destructor or Guardian. Now, assuming that either Guardian or Destructor is scum, (A valid assumption in my oppinion), I can safely make a vote on one of them to put them at L-2. It would still take one other townie to misvote with me to lose the game, or two other townies to vote correctly with me.
I'd rather not be one of the townies that are the deciding factor of the game.

I've gone back and forth throughout this day (although I only posted a vote on Destructor), and after reading the game several times, I believe I'm ready to vote.

Vote: Destructor

Please, if anyone in the town can give me a good reason why Guardian is more likely to be scum, then I'll unvote. In the mean time, my one vote doesn't hurt anyone.

the next townie to vote should be extremely cautious before they vote. Especially if they're thinking of voting Destructor

[Matt_S]

I don't see how you think destructor is more likely to be scum, but whatever, it's your vote. I suppose I might as well

Vote Guardian

. We're not getting anywhere new, and I'm tired of Guardian ignoring my points. So now what BAB said about being careful applies even more since both guys are at L-2.

[Guardian]

Guardian: You accuse destructor of lurking yet ignore your predecessors' lurking. That's what I want you to respond to.

Thanks for making it clear. Really the things you were asking were going over my head a bit.

Anyways, instances like this, exactly this, is why lurking is so anti-town. If everyone lurks, you can't tell the difference between town and scum, and lynch the wrong people (e.g. like planing to lynch me). Imat was wrong to lurk.

I have two significant responses though, (both of which I already made.....). Imat got replaced, and his activity went from very active to barely creeping to nothing. This is contrasted starkly against destructor's consistent low post rate and non-replacement. Both things imply to me that Imat lurked for external to game reasons, and destructor lurked for in game reasons. Destructor has admitted this -- he "wasn't interested" in the game.

Lurking for in game reasons and sticking around with minimal activity is suspicious. Lurking because life gets busier, having a discernible trend of activity, and getting replaced because you couldn't contribute enough are two starkly different things.

This whole tangent, btw, ignores my arguments for Imat being town and destructor being scum......

Matt_S, your vote is WRONG, and we need every townie's vote today to lynch destructor.

[Guardian]

Cost-benefit analysis: what do either guardian or des gain from lying to us today?

if we lynch des and he's town, we'll know guardian's scum and lynch him tomorrow.

if we lynch guardian and he's town, we'll figure des was lying and lynch him tomorrow.

Do both of these scenarios seem to suggest that there are two scum left, or only guardianscum?

If Guardian's the only scum left, he's dead meat, so we can assume that if he's scum, then he has a partner. Destructor could have a partner, but it's not certain. I've used this point before, but Guardian hasn't acknowledged it as legitimate.

It is NOT legitimate.

Destructor could be in a 3 man scum group, in which case lynching me loses immediately.

Consider: if I am indeed town, the town had a tracker, a cop, a doctor-watcher, and a vigilante. There was also an SK in the game. Do you think such a game would be likely to hold only 2 mafia? Granted shakaa was a bad mod, but to conjecture that there were only 2 maifa seems a tad unreasonable, at least inasmuch as you are using it to determine that voting me is the best course of action.

We're not getting anywhere new, and I'm tired of Guardian ignoring my points.

I could just as easily say I'm tired of you keeping your head in the sand Matt_S.

Not in these exact words or so explicitly, but I've made the points of this post and the previous post earlier, and you keep asking me to make them. I hope they finally get through.

[Talitha]

Current Vote Count

destructor (2)

- Guardian, BridgesandBaloons

Guardian (2)

- destructor, Matt_S

Not voting (2): Sethaniel, ting =)

FOUR (4) votes will lynch.

[Sethaniel]

I'm really not liking bab lately.

first he says he "doesn't like" my post with no explanation, just an "off vibe."

then he says he doesn't want to be one of the townies that are the deciding factor of the game.

He's really going out of his way to avoid any culpability whatsoever for a mislynch.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Sethaniel, all I said is I don't like your post off of a vibe. It's the truth. You know my game-play this entire game is to be as truthful and share the most information I have as possible. Why would I not explain my feelings on you?

I don't want to be one of the townies to decide because I'm not confident in my vote.
I have never been in LYLO before. Ever. The one game I've completed I was lynched day 1 and the other games I'm in are still in day 1 (besides this one).
Also, another reason for voting that I forgot to mention is: I'm going away on vacation for a week and I want to make sure my vote is there if other people still voting.

[Matt_S]

Cost-benefit analysis: what do either guardian or des gain from lying to us today?

if we lynch des and he's town, we'll know guardian's scum and lynch him tomorrow.

if we lynch guardian and he's town, we'll figure des was lying and lynch him tomorrow.

Do both of these scenarios seem to suggest that there are two scum left, or only guardianscum?

If Guardian's the only scum left, he's dead meat, so we can assume that if he's scum, then he has a partner. Destructor could have a partner, but it's not certain. I've used this point before, but Guardian hasn't acknowledged it as legitimate.

It is NOT legitimate.

Destructor could be in a 3 man scum group, in which case lynching me loses immediately.

Consider: if I am indeed town, the town had a tracker, a cop, a doctor-watcher, and a vigilante. There was also an SK in the game. Do you think such a game would be likely to hold only 2 mafia? Granted shakaa was a bad mod, but to conjecture that there were only 2 maifa seems a tad unreasonable, at least inasmuch as you are using it to determine that voting me is the best course of action.

WAY TO READ THE GAME! I've acknowledged that fact from the very beginning, but you seem to be intent on ignoring me and only trying to survive. I've said ALL THE TIME that destructor COULD have a buddy if he's scum. However, you HAVE a buddy if you are scum. SEE THE DIFFERENCE? If you actually used logic every so often I might be inclined to not lynch you. For example, your defense of Imat wasn't logical. "He had no malice"? How nice it was for you to make that decision for us. And just to make sure, I read through your posts to see your case on destructor, and all I see is "zomg he lurked" and "trust me over him". I point again to your predecessors. You now seem to be saying that because destructor continued to stay in the game, he's scummier than them? You are strongly supporting this lynch all lurkers position, despite the illogical nature of it. I will never support lynch all lurkers because it is the worst thing I can do for town. Now, I HIGHLY suggest that you make a case on destructor that doesn't involve lurking or your role if you want me to change my vote.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Darn, I really wanted to see Destructor's reaction before I left on vacation.

I should be able to get internet access 4 days from now or so.

[destructor]

Unvote
Vote: Sethaniel

[Matt_S]

Unvote
Vote: Sethaniel

Question mark?

[Guardian]

How could it possibly make sense for unNKable townie destructor to vote for

anyone

other than the player claiming to have a night result involving him targeting someone?

[Sethaniel]

I've got to agree with Guardian there.

vote: destructor

If Des really has no targeting ability, then Guardian is lying. For des to switch his vote to me with no explanation reeks of scum. Perhaps he realized a Guardian lynch was iffy, and saw bab's suspicions as a way to get some other townie lynched.

[Matt_S]

unvote

*waits for destructor to splain himself*

[destructor]

I'd like ting to drop in before saying anything other than noting that I haven't been lynched yet.

[ting =)]

here, still exams.

most of the arguments so far seem like rehashing.

except for the thing on des going for seth. why did you anyway? i have a guess why, but i'd like to hear your reasons for why you think what you did was the best thing to do.

[Guardian]

So, ting =) is not scum in a 2 man scum group.... unless he is scum with destructor. Big freakin' surprise.