Mini 611 - Troy, Meet Helen (Game Over)

[Tinsley]

Sorry I've left everyone hanging I've been working on a reread but it's been going very slowly because the outside world has been getting in the way. But after 4 days and 4.5 pages of notes I'm up to the point of my last post of substance (post 201). My List of Suspicion from Greatest to Least at the moment (please keep in mind I've still got 3 more pages to go on my reread ):

Battousai - Admittedly lurked early in the game. When asked for his reason he learned the idea from another game - from scum Still don't know the point of his question to Netlava in post 150 (I think the reason he provided in post 192 was weak). While lurking may not make you scum, when you pair it with your weak reasoning and avoiding questions (as you did when I asked you for a list of suspects) makes you seem scummy to me.

Netlava - I agree his contradictions are certainly scummy. I also find it interesting that he and charter continue to defend each other. Charter defended him when Battousai questioned him in post 150.
Netlava switched his vote from charter to CFRiot when charter was up to 4 votes without providing a very good reason (something to keep in mind if we find out one or the other is scum.) I can't be certain on him though because of last game.

Hadhfang - Flip-flops on the charter's contradiction, then claims cop when he believes he was at L-2 (but actually at L-3). To be honest he was still at the top of my list when I unvoted him, but I felt it was far too early in the game. He's been quiet since. Obviously we shouldn't lynch him today.

charter - Has not been as defensive as he was in the previous game (as scum.) Regarding the accusation that he's setting up Had's lynch D2 - I honestly had the same thought, but I guess the key there is that he posted it.

Lord Gurgi - Only up this high because he brought up the SK point, has been asked at least twice about it, but still hasn't addressed why he brought it up. I've read everything else about him as town.

Walnut - Had suspicions of him earlier in the game because he seemed to focus on setup speculation and didn't provide much useful analysis, but I thought he made a great point in post 187 and appreciated him calling out Battousai for avoiding my question about his suspects.

Camn - Hard to get a read on her as she had just joined the game before I took off. But I like what I've seen from her so far. BB on the other hand came off very scummy. He was at the top of my list before he left.

CF Riot - Besides his misleading stat to start the game, he has seemed pro-town. The only other thing I could come up with on him was his analysis of Netlava came after Netlava voted him (OMGUS?) but he made valid points so I don't really put much stock in that. I don't really see the relationship between him and Battousai as Netlava suggests.

ShadowGirl - Hard to read her. As of Page 9 she hadn't posted much and what she did post was confusing or reiterated what others had said (post 194).

Farside22 - I disagree with her thoughts about charter being a hypocrite between posts 100 154. But that doesn't make her scum.

Macavenger - Living up to his sig. He's provided useful analysis and hasn't done anything that sticks out as suspicious.

Sorry for the absense. I've finally got some free time coming up so I'm going to work on getting completely caught up and post some more thoughts this weekend. Back to reading.

[Battousai]

Charter: from Walnut's defense of to you, I think he dispelled most of the points you had against him, yet you still find him scummiest (by not unvoting) What are the major points you have against him now?

Tinsley: Concerning LG, the only reason I saw for him to bring up the SK was at the beginning when people were speculating on the amount of scum. He said, from memory, either 3 scum or 2 scum and a SK. Then people started questioning him and made him bring it up more. Shadowgirl is the 3rd most protown player on your list (3rd from bottom), do you feel lack of beneficial posts gives her more protown credability than someone who has posted a lot, but made a few posts that could be interpreted scummy?

[Lord Gurgi]

Concerning the SK thing, I only brought it up because everyone was assuming that there were 3 mafia. I specifically said that in a 12 player game there is usually 3 mafia or 2 mafia and an SK. I wasn't trying to stir paranoia. I was just saying that there are other possibilities. I'm not sure why it's bad to bring up the SK first, and not bad to bring up the size of the mafia first. Could someone explain it to me?

[Macavenger]

Concerning the SK thing, I only brought it up because everyone was assuming that there were 3 mafia. I specifically said that in a 12 player game there is usually 3 mafia or 2 mafia and an SK. I wasn't trying to stir paranoia. I was just saying that there are other possibilities. I'm not sure why it's bad to bring up the SK first, and not bad to bring up the size of the mafia first. Could someone explain it to me?

Gurgi, it's partially jsut setup discussion being bad, and partially jeep's theory that everyone really wants to tell you their role on some level. Talking about the SK first as the SK also sets up a nice WIFOM defense later of "well I brought up the possibility first, I wouldn't do that if I were the SK!" As mentioned earlier, it's a fairly weak tell.

I went back and reread the earlier parts of the game.

I think Gurgi is probably town at this point. He really hasn't done anything scummy all game except the SK speculation. Netlava's case on, even the new, expanded one, really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

charter is also much less likely to be scum after rereading. I don't like his early self contradiction in 21-22, or his setting up a lynch in 101, but that's really all he's done. His recent posts have been contributing nicely.

charter's 264 is also pretty much dead on. Walnut has posted next to no content this game. He has a few largish posts, but none of them really contribute anything. One of them he spends a whole paragraph talking about how prods work with respect to lurking and what some mods do about it, etc. Basically nothing related to this game. A

lot

of Walnut's posts are like that.

By post 92, where Walnut hops on the hadhfang wagon, putting him at L-2, Walnut has not really posted any content this game, and continues to make more content-free posts after that. In this context especially, that wagon jump was scummy as hell.

ShadowGirl is lurking too much for me to really get a read. She needs to start posting more, quickly, or get replaced.

I'm also seeing a possible CF Riot/Battousai connection here that I missed out on earlier. I don't like Battousai's play this game at all; it's been very lurkish, and he's admitted he's trying a strategy he got from a scum in another game. His vote on farside in post 37 still strikes me as a bit off, and post 150, what should happen if CF Riot is dead tomorrow is a bit strange. Note also how he's sort of indirectly defending Riot there.

Meanwhile, Riot in post 48 makes an odd assertion about Battousai being shifty in his reaction after the farside thing. Something feels a bit off about this to me, especially the way Riot continues leaning on Battousai over this in posts 99, 108, and 114. Post 157, where he sort of defends Battousai's odd question and agrees with it, makes me think they could be together also. The earlier leaning could be distancing with the way they seem to be defensive of each other later.

I'm still suspicious of Netlava and think pretty much all of his cases suck so far. That said, a couple of his early points about Riot (before the bogus breadcrumb thing) are reasonable, and he did point out the possible Riot/Batt connection a lot earlier, and his play is depressing similar to last game.

Overall, I would probably leave my vote on Netlava for now, were it not for the fact that CF Riot and Battousai are both currently on his wagon. Do not like.

Unvote; Vote: Walnut

FoS: Netlava, CF Riot, Battousai

Yes, I realize that's likely more people than there are scum in the game, but they all need watched at this point, in my opinion.

[Macavenger]

EBWOP:
[quote]Overall, I would probably leave my vote on Netlava for now, were it not for the fact that CF Riot and Battousai are both currently on his wagon

, and Walnut is waffling about joining it

. Do not like.

[Macavenger]

I fail at BBCode. Should still get the point across, though.

[Lord Gurgi]

Do you mean you don't like that walnut is waffling or that those two are on it, or both?

[Macavenger]

Both.

[farside22]

I will do my best to give this game a good read thru this weekend and get back with my own thoughts.

[Walnut]

Plus your latest post is taking a very noncommittal stance on netlava. You even say so yourself. It seems scummy, like all that needs to happen is netlava needs just a little more support, then you'll add your vote.

Overall, I would probably leave my vote on Netlava for now, were it not for the fact that CF Riot and Battousai are both currently on his wagon,Walnut is waffling about joining it

I said that right now I am not committed either way on Netlava. Are you saying that to be not voting at this stage of the game is scummy?

charter's 264 is also pretty much dead on. Walnut has posted next to no content this game. He has a few largish posts, but none of them really contribute anything. One of them he spends a whole paragraph talking about how prods work with respect to lurking and what some mods do about it, etc. Basically nothing related to this game. A lot of Walnut's posts are like that.

Mac, you keep accusing me of the same thing, in that I tend to post things I think will be aids for other peoples' thinking, rather than just saying "I suspect person x for reason y". To use a recent example, when people were assuming 2 night kills meaning that there was a serial killer, that is simply wrong. If I hadn't pointed it out, I don't know who would have considered other possibilities. CFRiot had the grace to say "Thank you for the clarification", but you vote for me for content not related to this game . As with Charter, I don't think this makes you scum, although it ranks up with the dumb townie reasons for voting for people.

By post 92, where Walnut hops on the hadhfang wagon, putting him at L-2, Walnut has not really posted any content this game, and continues to make more content-free posts after that. In this context especially, that wagon jump was scummy as hell.

In post 75 you say that "finally someone has done something noticeable". I thought the same thing, and by post 81 I am questioning Had about it. The posts before that had been a range from random to interesting, but not worth voting for.
In terms of subsequent content, after putting hadhfang on the shelf for Day 2, Blackberry became the player I was most suspicious of, who has now been replaced, so my content regarding him is no longer relevant.

[Tinsley]

A few more thoughts after a quick skim over the last 3.5 pages:

As camn has already answered this, I feel relatively free to ask Tinsley- what were you thinking? How could Blackberry's role have told him anything of note about the mafia? To be purely hypothetical (so as not to compromise anyone's thinking about the current game), is there any role that on Day One, with no Night one and therefore no prior info, would have a better idea or not of which roles the other players would have? That is, other than a role that was intrinsically linked (e.g. siblings, lovers, lyncher/lynchee). Is that what you were implying?

I wanted to know if BB/camn's role might have provided any explanation to BB's peculiar behavior. But I think your comments here have flown under the radar. Once again you bring up role/setup speculation, as you have throughout this game causing distractions.

FoS: Walnut

Lets take a hard look at NetLava for a couple days.. simply because he is our vote-leader right now.
Let's not get distracted by other accusations for a little bit, until we are satisfied.

I know you later clarified this as too many conversations at once were confusing, but as others have stated if we just focus on Netlava, based on his playstyle, he'll get himself lynched.

I don't really see Netlava's case on LG. I honestly interpreted LG's post as "Let's give him a chance to defend himself before lynching him."

My opinion on Netlava hasn't really changed, more of Netlava being Netlava. I agree that his weak cases and flip-flopping on Riot are suspicious, but as I've stated before, it fits his playstyle whether he's town or scum. I don't think that makes him unlynchable however, I just think we should look for other scum and revisit him based on his actions a little later in the game.

I like Mac's suspicion of Batt, Walnut, and Riot, as both Batt and Walnut were already high on my list. All are currently suspicious of Netlava, two of which are currently voting him. I would think as scum Netlava would make a good first target because of his playstyle.

Concerning LG, the only reason I saw for him to bring up the SK was at the beginning when people were speculating on the amount of scum. He said, from memory, either 3 scum or 2 scum and a SK. Then people started questioning him and made him bring it up more. Shadowgirl is the 3rd most protown player on your list (3rd from bottom), do you feel lack of beneficial posts gives her more protown credability than someone who has posted a lot, but made a few posts that could be interpreted scummy?

I placed SG low because I don't have much to go on her either way. She should probably be looked at for lurking, however, I played in the recently finished Newbie 610 with her, and she probably could have been qualified as a lurker there as well (she turned up town.)

LG - I believe you said something to the effect of We should assume 3 mafia and 1 SK. I know you say you weren't trying to stir paranoia, but the way you said it made me think you were trying to do just that.

[Walnut]

As camn has already answered this, I feel relatively free to ask Tinsley- what were you thinking? How could Blackberry's role have told him anything of note about the mafia? To be purely hypothetical (so as not to compromise anyone's thinking about the current game), is there any role that on Day One, with no Night one and therefore no prior info, would have a better idea or not of which roles the other players would have? That is, other than a role that was intrinsically linked (e.g. siblings, lovers, lyncher/lynchee). Is that what you were implying?

I wanted to know if BB/camn's role might have provided any explanation to BB's peculiar behavior. But I think your comments here have flown under the radar. Once again you bring up role/setup speculation, as you have throughout this game causing distractions.

FoS: Walnut

This followed Tinsley's question:

Camn - Welcome to the game. Knowing what you do from inheriting BB's role, would you say his suspicion of Walnut and Macavenger were serious?

Maybe I should have been blunter, and just said that your question was at best meaningless and at worst scummy. Instead I tried to show why it was so, and you followed Macavenger's weak lead in saying that anything that provides context for the game is distraction.

I like Mac's suspicion of Batt, Walnut, and Riot, as both Batt and Walnut were already high on my list. All are currently suspicious of Netlava, two of which are currently voting him. I would think as scum Netlava would make a good first target because of his playstyle.

What? When I say it, it is cause for suspicion, but when you listen to what I say and paraphrase it, it is good reasoning?

[camn]

Lets take a hard look at NetLava for a couple days.. simply because he is our vote-leader right now.
Let's not get distracted by other accusations for a little bit, until we are satisfied.

I know you later clarified this as too many conversations at once were confusing, but as others have stated if we just focus on Netlava, based on his playstyle, he'll get himself lynched.

Yet we did indeed focus on Netlava for a while.. and He remains Un-Lynched.
I think that despite his playstyle. . this town doesn't want to lynch him today.

And since we keep coming back to BB's comments before I subbed in... I should tell you guys this:

I will need to Claim before Night Fall.
I was going to wait until twilight, in order to avoid a D1 lynch, and to avoid distraction from scumhunting........ but I feel that BBs comments have a little bit of value as to BB's state of mind.. . and might help clear stuff up.

so....Should I do it now? I am not really afraid of a lynch, because I am better off dead than unclaimed. Unclaimed, I am a liability to the town... claimed, I might earn a lynch, but at least I won't accidentally hurt us.

I am willing to discuss it any time. But I don't want to derail any pertinent discussion we might have going.

[Walnut]

Camn, this is a surprise. The only references to BB's comments have been by way of people speculating whether I was being suspicious in attacking him. I think that we have moved on from BB and people are judging you on the basis of your own play. Unless you have some really good reason for claiming, I don't think that you are a liability, and I think that you should not claim.

[charter]

I figured camn actually did have a wild role because of the way she basically said 'drop my role discussion' as soon as she came in. Coupled with BB's "kick ass role" and I thought it might be true.

I don't know what your role is camn, but if you think its better for the town to know then not, then you should claim now.

[Tinsley]

Maybe I should have been blunter, and just said that your question was at best meaningless and at worst scummy. Instead I tried to show why it was so, and you followed Macavenger's weak lead in saying that anything that provides context for the game is distraction.

I don't think the question to camn was meaningless. She has a little bit more insight to BB's actions than the rest of us, so she would know if BB's actions were role-related or not. Judging by her post 287, they may have been.

What? When I say it, it is cause for suspicion, but when you listen to what I say and paraphrase it, it is good reasoning?

I never said that your stance on Netlava was cause for suspicion, I and a few others have noticed that you have made several posts discussing possible setups and roles. How are these helping us find scum right now on D1?

Camn - Why are you considering claiming now instead of waiting until a possible lynch is imminent?

[Mizzy]

I will be on V/LoA for today and tomorrow. I may or may not have net access.

[camn]

Look.. I'll just come out with it.

I will kill anyone who targets me in the night.

I'm not waiting for a lynch, because I'm not claiming in Self-Defense... and I don't want the discussion to sidetrack anything. But Obviously, if the power roles in the town DONT know about my... ability .. then we could end up with a dead Cop, Doc, or any other thing that there might be, which is obviously a town liability.

So, like I said.. I was going to wait till twilight.. but maybe now is good, so as to shed light on BB's comments. You all know him better than I.

It is a pretty kick ass role, though!

Now.. before you get all Lynch-Happy..... just know this.
If I was scum, I would have held on to the info.. and tried to draw a Cop investigation. Maybe I would have even Claimed Cop.. so as to attempt to draw an investigation AND Doc protection.

Of course.. if you guys believe me.. I am basically un-killable. Which is pretty awesome, and I see how it could be an amazing scum Gambit.

But it's not. I'm town, and I want to remove the threat that I present to our power roles.

Please! Do Not investigate me!
Do not Protect me!
Do not Track me, Hide behind me, or anything else!

But Mafia... Bring it on. Come to my house in the night... See what Happens!

[Netlava]

Hmm... conflict within my own list. I don't see scum making such a move so Macavenger loses the 2 spot.

Anyways, I agree with the Walnut wagon.

Vote: Walnut

[charter]

I'm inclined to believe you. As some of you have noticed, I just say what I think, so I say we keep you around for a little, if need be, we can lynch you later, but I don't think you would have claimed like that if you were scum. Do you know if the mafia's kill would still go through on you? AKA a one for one trade? (not that I would mind that)

[Netlava]

EBWOP:

Unvote, vote: walnut

[Battousai]

Netlava: What has Mac done that has taken him off your top 3 list? What's your new list?

[Netlava]

Mac accused someone on my list, and I don't think bussing in this case is likely. This is also a bold move to make as scum, so I decided that Mac isn't on the top 3 list.

My new list:
1. LG
2. --empty--
3. walnut

I haven't decided who occupies the new slot yet. Maybe CF Riot gets it by default

[Battousai]

Wouldn't it make more sense to just bump walnut up to 2, and then get a replacement number 3 (my guess would be Riot or myself from some of your posts).

Also, I don't see what mac did could be seen as a bold move to make as scum. He says certain people seem town (could be trying to get their support) and then spread "attacks" out to a few players. That is not bold in my books. Does anyone else think that what Mac did in post 278-280 is a too bold to be scum move? Do agree with Netlava's assessment Mac (from a third party perspective of course)?

[Netlava]

I think CF Riot gets the spot for now. The Walnut/Riot link is somewhat strong. The main problem with Riot is that earlier in his accusation, he put his third spot on his list as "Walnut/Blackberry" as opposed to just Walnut. Plus, this goes against his dramatic defense of Blackberry.