Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[popsofctown]

Spare Votecount 1.4

Hectic ----------------------------------

(2)

Chara, Nachomamma8

Replica --------

Asriel Dreemurr -----------------------

(1)

Chemist1422

Amrun ----------------------------------

Chara -----------------------------------

(1)

Asriel Dreemurr

Nachomamma8 ------------------------

Sujimichi ----------------------------

Chemist1422 ---------------------------

(1)

Hectic

SherlockHolmes -----------------------

(2)

SherlockHolmes, Replica

alimdia ----------------------------------

Pine -------------------------------------

Not sparing:

- (4) Amrun, Sujimichi, alimdia, Pine

Fight Votecount 1.4

Hectic ----------------------------------

(1)

Replica

Replica ----------------------------------

(1)

Chemist1422

Asriel Dreemurr -----------------------

(1)

Nachomamma8

Amrun ----------------------------------

(1)

Chara

Chara -----------------------------------

Nachomamma8 ------------------------

Sujimichi --------------------------------

(1)

Amrun

Chemist1422 ---------------------------

(1)

Asriel Dreemurr

SherlockHolmes -----------------------

(2)

Hectic, alimdia

alimdia ----------------------------------

(1)

SherlockHolmes

Pine -------------------------------------

Not Fighting:

- (2) Pine, Sujimichi

<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

3>3>3>3>3>3>3>3>3>

Nachomamma8 was now lying on the ground from his fit of laughter, and due to the awkward shape of his body, he just lied on the ground. He would be happy to continue roasting Sujimichi from the floor, but Sujimichi had slipped away, perhaps having had enough punishment. Nachomamma8 looked around and found a certain round canine at eye level. The little pup was rolling onto his side and back to mimic Nachomamma8, with a happy tongue dangling out of his mouth the entire time.
"I like you, you are a goof, a bit like me. You know that, Hectic?" Nachomamma8 said, looking Hectic in the eye. Hectic grew very excited about the snowdrake looking at him and speaking. If Hectic had to guess, Nachomamma8 was asking where the nearest department store was with ongoing sales that remain in effect for at least six days, or at least two days if layaway was available. Hectic did not have to guess, since he could not speak, anyway. The only thing Hectic ever had to guess was whether his own tail ceased to exist when he stopped looking at it. Hectic almost always guessed that right.
He guessed it right this time, so he knew it was available to wag as he wriggled and moved closer to Nachomamma8.
"You're so much like me, I'll dress you up to look that way," Nachomamma8 added. He plucked some of his own feathers and arranged them into a frame around Hectic's head, that mimicked the snowflake-reminiscent shape of the frame that was naturally a part of Nachomamma8's head. Hectic was excited just by the attention, and when the work was finished and Hectic looked like a tiny, madly grinning canine snowdrake, it was a sight to see.
It didn't last for long, though, before Hectic grew too excited and began jumping around so much that Nachomamma8's creation was pulverized.
"YIP! YIP! YIP! YIP! YIP! YIP!"

With eleven players alive, it takes six votes to make a decision.
(expired on 2020-01-27 13:00:00)

[Chara]

v/la for two days. this is a minor overestimation of how long i'll be unable to post, i hope.

[Sujimichi]

I disagree with your risk assessment strongly, and I need to evaluate whether this is truly your opinion on what is best for Town or your desired outcome.

My mechanical thoughts here are the same I expressed during the last Undertale game I play and after seeing our town win despite miscues and seeing the SPARE CITY town go down in horrible flames they are thoughts that I continue to maintain. Consider the following points and tell me how crazy I'm being here.

PROPOSAL A: SPARING CONFIRMED TOWN IS NO MORE BENEFICIAL THAN SPARING VANILLA TOWN

Consider the game of billiards. In the game, a "duck" is considered a shot so easy that you basically can't miss it. And yet, common strategy dictates that you don't take ducks the minute they become available; you use them when you don't have any other good shots available. This is because correctly sinking balls that are in OK but not perfect are more valuable than sinking balls that you know you will get anyways - kind of how correctly sparing a vanilla town now is more valuable than a confirmed town. If we back ourselves into a corner and things get mucky, sure, take the duck. But otherwise, why should we take it right now? We still have to sink the same number of balls - why not take care of those we are most likely to lose opportunities in via nightkills

now

and take the duck when it is most convenient to us?

PROPOSAL 2: SCUM PLAYING AROUND MECHANICS OF FRIENDLY NEIGHBOR IS ACTUALLY GOOD FOR TOWN

So, bear with me because I know that I am constantly teetering on the edge of insanity. When we spare someone, that person should always self-hammer and they should always claim friendly neighbor or not while they self-hammer. This means there's a 0% chance of erroneous claims and it prevents the scenario where scum can reasonably claim friendly neighbor and get away with it.

Keeping that in mind, I think it's far better for town if scum have to deal with the possibility of their plans going to shit with mislynch target #1 claiming friendly neighbor and they can no longer push them - we are much more likely to catch them with their pants down than we would be otherwise and I really don't think that getting a correct Spare D1 is a situation that scum is actually in any way afraid of.

My other thought (the smallest of the three, so I'm not making it big and bold) is that we are protecting a player, a voice, not so much a role - thus I'd rather protect someone I know is a good player and I know who will produce and push the town towards a win as opposed to rolling a roulette wheel and hoping that a strong town player is also a friendly neighbor.

Do you still disagree with my risk assessment? Do you kind of see where I'm coming from or do I still seem lost in the sauce?

Response to Proposal A

Your comparison to pool is inaccurate. In pool, there is a known ruleset that you are playing to (similar to this game); however, the quantities are known. For example, eightball. The game is between two players, one will ultimately attempt to sink all of the solids and then the eightball, and one will attempt to sink all of the stripes and then the 8-ball. Both players are fully aware of which ball is which, and they know that if they sink one of their targeted balls they may continue to make shots. In this scenario, it makes sense not to necessarily go for the easiest shots for reasons ascribed by you above. A better comparison here though is that we are playing eightball with all of the balls wrapped in black plastic except we have the option to remove the plastic from one of the balls. We also must alternate turns with our competitor regardless of accuracy. Even if we attempt to change the angle of our view, or peer below the plastic, that green color we see could be a stripe or a solid. The top of the 9 could actually be the bottom of the 6. We have no way of knowing what actually lies beneath the plastic until we sink the ball or our competitor does.

We have the opportunity to get an early lead with a save which furthers our win condition

and

grants a bonus ability (and we know that we will have at least one confirmed town and thus can determine our minimum bonus) or we take shots at plastic-wrapped balls in hopes they are our desired pattern and that our competitor does not sink our freebie.

Response to Proposal B

We are already in an Open setup with one Friendly Neighbor. Mafia cannot claim Friendly Neighbor at any point unless they want to get in a counterclaim battle with the actual Friendly Neighbor in which case town has secured a guaranteed lynch. This is a point I brought up in my original thought process. What then is the benefit of having someone claim whether or not they are the Friendly Neighbor prior to hammering their own Spare? If they are telling the truth and claim Friendly Neighbor, this results in a similar situation as to what I am suggesting we do today. If they are lying as Mafia and claim Friendly Neighbor and hammer their own Spare, the real Friendly Neighbor can out the next day and we have now caught one Mafia member. If they are town and claim they are not Friendly Neighbor as they hammer their own Spare, they have reduced the pool for which Mafia has to search in for the actual Friendly Neighbor. If they are town and claim they are Friendly Neighbor, they are lying and I do not see why someone would do that.

Town can mislynch just as easily as Mafia, so I do not see where you are going to "catch them with their pants down" in the event that the Friendly Neighbor is voted to the point of having to claim. You then have to hope that there is not a required scramble to change the votes to Spare the now claimed Friendly Neighbor or they will be the night kill.

As to your third point, who in this game are you stating that you know to be a good [town] player and that they are town? Because if you cannot state both with certainty, you are rolling a roulette wheel and hoping that the strong town player is also town in the game.

Yes, I still disagree with your risk assessment. However, your logic appears to be genuinely believed to me.

[Sujimichi]

HURT: Pine

I prefer my plan, but I will do this is there is not majority agreement.

[Amrun]

HURT: Asriel


@Chara: why aren’t YOU pressuring Asriel as well if you agree?

But I do too, and I did say earlier I feel Asriel is off.

I simply didn’t want to let up on Sujimichi but his more recent contributions have definitely been better.

Let’s consolidate and choo choo.

[Asriel Dreemurr]

I will unlurk myself when I feel to.
Pressuring me won't speed up the process.

[Asriel Dreemurr]

It will probably happen near end of my V/LA, if you want rough date.

[SherlockHolmes]

Why are you voting Sherlock when you haven't read ant of his posts?

I quite clearly understand and read the relevant posts in regards to my accusations and his post 42 I'm referencing.
I wonder, do you understand my case?

Sherlock is voting or was voting with JT because JT healed him. He was explicit about this fact. Where do go from here to get the "Sherlock is scummy for his vote" conclusion?

I'm asking for a friend because I'm totally not voting with Amrun simply because Amrun said hi back.

This is, my dear Hectic and Alimdia, a quite astute and accurate summation of why I went along with the fine JTheophrastus Bartholomew esq. in his vote.

Furthermore, it was a period of time that I believe is referred to colloquially as “RVS”. The main purpose was, if one is to follow my votes before a tipping point, to simply create what I have heard referred to as “wagons” with the aim of generating content that is more readable to a detective minded to parse it for clues as to intentions.

I consider it a sign of significantly greater scuminess, and the best so far no less, to try and paint my actions as anything other than “NAI” when that is the assumption a reasonable and neutral observer. It is much more the impulse of an agent of Moriarty to try and make a mountain out of a molehill, and to create a villainous motive where none exists; indeed, it is necessary to an agent of Moriarty, for if not how then can they create the appearance of “scumhunting”?

My vote remains, although I am a little pressed with some of my other endeavours currently, and also I must attend to my letters. Therefore I may not “push my read” as you gentlepeople so finely put it, but I remain resolute on the point that Alimdia is the gentleman most likely to be working for nefarious purposes by a fair margin.

I also have some concerns about the prospect of sparing Hectic, namely because Nachomamma8 esq. has been dedicated to that read in a way that somewhat unnerves me. This is not to say that I do not think Hectic is town — I rather do. However, were he to be scum, I believe his highest “scum!equity” is with the esteemed Nachomamma8, and for that reason I strongly lean towards a “fight” action today. If the esteemed Nachomamma8, or whom I have heard many admiring tales, can identify one of Moriarty’s agents and put them to the sword, I would feel more comfortable in following his lead on the “sparing” of the local lunatic.

[SherlockHolmes]

HURT: Asriel


@Chara: why aren’t YOU pressuring Asriel as well if you agree?

But I do too, and I did say earlier I feel Asriel is off.

I simply didn’t want to let up on Sujimichi but his more recent contributions have definitely been better.

Let’s consolidate and choo choo.

My dearest Amrun, would you kindly do me the service of explaining in what manner you feel that Asriel is “off”?

I must admit, I consider them to be more likely a friend than a foe.

[SherlockHolmes]

Mssrs. Nachomamma8, JTheophrastus, Chemist, and Hectic: could I entice you gentlemen with the prospect of lynching our companion Alimdia?

[Amrun]

Ok, I read again because my eyes glazed over too many times.

On second pass, I like Hectic for town more than I thought, but I’m not hanging my hat on it.

I still like sujimichi for scum with a secondary pick of Asriel. I didn’t like Asriel’s awkwardness, but I did like chemist’s defense of it, which is +town majorly IMO. Chemist clearly has more meta with Asriel than I do, so I thought I’d trust him on it for the time being, but thinking back to the only micro I have with Asriel, I don’t remember this nervous twitchiness there, so, keeping an eye out.

Sujimichi is trying to blend in.

HURT: Sujimichi

P-edit: yas queen yas

[popsofctown]

Replica replaces JTheophrastus Bartholomew, effective immediately

[SherlockHolmes]

My warmest thanks, Amrun. I must admit, I now recall having read that post, but even the world’s greatest detective is sometimes prone to a small lapse of memory. However, I wondered if you might perhaps expand on what this “nervous twitchiness” is in Asriel’s posts, perhaps going so far as to bless us with citations for the same. I patiently await your response.

[Chemist1422]

Mssrs. Nachomamma8, JTheophrastus, Chemist, and Hectic: could I entice you gentlemen with the prospect of lynching our companion Alimdia?

why these names out of the entire game?

[Sujimichi]

HURT: Asriel Dreemurr

That was not a good response.

[Amrun]

V/LA

I’ll be here in and out but my son’s daycare might get shut down for literally having a child eat actual Percocet on their watch so I want to make everyone aware I’m dealing with RL issues and may be distant for a bit

[Chemist1422]

that sounds nasty and I don't think I want to know what it is

good luck with your rl stuff

[Amrun]

It’s a painkiller

[Chemist1422]

"I don't think I want to know what that is" is not an invitation for you to tell me what it is :v

[Amrun]

You should know that, Chemist. It’s basic life knowledge.

[Replica]

Given what I've seen during the game and the lack of accessible meta, I think it'd be useful to give a brief introduction on myself as a player.

As a player, I have two mostly complementary but occasionally opposing motivations. First, I find mafia aesthetically pleasing and view it as a work of art. The best play in my book are the things that I find subjectively beautiful: I love plans that come together, masterful improvisation in the face of them falling apart, clever insights and teamwork like a well-oiled machine. Second, I am fiercely competitive and have a relentless drive to win. Generally, I would rather lose a game that pushed me and my friends to the limit rather than win a snoozefest, but the tradeoff is different for every game!

This is relevant so far in two ways:

First, I'm not opposed to lynching at some point despite it being mechanically suboptimal. Player engagement is important, both in order to have fun and to win, and I agree that town is likely to be more motivated, active, and having fun while scumhunting than townhunting. I will have more thoughts about when we should do this shortly.

Second, like others I'm having a hard time reading gimmicks, especially Sherlock. I'm not a playstyle evangelist. If you're having fun, and playing this way keeps you more engaged and enthusiastic, in my book this is a strength to be leveraged and not discouraged. I'll do my best to read through it, and hopefully even grow fond of it. In return, though, I think it would be good to keep my limitation in mind for two reasons: If you need to impart something important to me specifically, loosening the gimmick for a second might help communicate with me more effectively. I also would ask for the benefit of the doubt if I don't get through a gimmick-heavy post in a timely or correct manner.

If you want to know more about me, let me know, but otherwise let's get started!

[Amrun]

It’s not mechanically suboptimal. If no one ever flips, we have nothing.

[Replica]

Two different uses of the phrase: I fully recognize the value of flips, information, and the fact that mafia is not played in a random number generator.

[Replica]

The best word I can put to some of the behaviors I've seen so far is "bizarre".

The first are Nacho's mechanical suggestions. Nacho acknowledges that sparing is good at times, but is adamant that we spill some blood, and in another post advocates doing it early. He is opposed to sparing Day 1, but is open to sparing townreads/the neighbor as becomes convenient. It is unclear how many total spares he has in mind, but the number is not 4. There's a coherent thesis in the center here: Town needs information and motivation to be successful and engaged. The best way to get both of these things is not through strictly townhunting but through scumhunting. I agree with the thesis. The implementation of this thesis, though, is incredibly bizarre.

The reason is this principal:

The odds of correctly sparing and the odds of correctly lynching are inversely proportional.

Pick one of two scenarios:

1) Lynch when we have a 2/11 chance of hitting scum, spare when we have a 5/7 chance of sparing correctly.
2) Lynch when we have a 2/5 chance of hitting scum, spare when we have a 9/11 chance of sparing correctly.

There are a few confounding factors (ie. IF we spare incorrectly, IF we do lynch correctly, I don't factor neighbor) but it's pretty clear what time is the best to lynch. Nacho's suggesting more than we lynch despite it being mechanically worse, he's suggesting we do it at

the absolute worst possible time.

There's an argument for weight of a Day 1 flip vs. a Day 4 flip-If we're talking info/engagement, how useful is it to only start your engine Day 4?-but I adamantly oppose lynching Day 1. I believe it is only slightly better than throwing the lynch in the garbage. Smart players are not above advocating mechanical garbage as scum, either, so don't give me that.

Skim Hectic's posting in this game and compare it to his posting in this game. There are some stark differences (some more obvious than others), but in particular, I want you to focus on the difference in tone. How free and willing to take crazy swings in one game versus the other? Can you see where he seems very focused on his self-image in one versus the other?

Second is this meta. These appear to be taken from Hectic's very first two games onsite. Checking Hectic's wiki, the scumgame you linked isn't listed, so I'm not really sure how you chose that scumgame to compare against. The first scumgame I found from checking his posts is this.

Here is a quote from his very first post in that game, in reply to the question "Are you town or scum?":

1) Scum. My strategy this game will be to start off strong and post often. I will make allies while dropping the occasional joke, and will focus on pushing 1 or 2 people who are likely to be newbie townies that are simply apprehensive. After a few days of this, I am likely to peter my activity and start lurking, avoiding any attention and allowing the town to follow the predetermined path of chaos I have set them on. If someone points to this post and accuses me of being transparent scum, I will retort that they simply do not understand the humour.
Here is an example:
MamaTort: "Isn't Hectic doing exactly what he said he would do as scum? Isn't he just... scum here?"
Hectic: "I pity you. You are oblivious to my dangerously high level of humour and wall-breaking meta play, and as a result, I will now affectionately call you 'Torty'."

I'll save the space quoting, but the counterexample completely demolishes your meta argument. This is a sample, but it was not a one-off for the game. Poor meta work by town is so common as to be null, but how you got here in selecting the games, and how readily you drew on it despite the glaringly obvious red flags-first scumgame onsite?-is extremely questionable.

[Amrun]

Do you think nacho and hectic are scum together, replica?