TM2020 | Untrod Tripod Destroys Anime! | Endgame

[ofrhz]

wait nvm I can't read

[ofrhz]

compulsive JOAT is also like a nontrivial nerf to the JOAT role imo

[PenguinPower]

Votecount 4.04
Kerset (2): hitogoroshi, ofrhz Not Voting (5): Kerset, Chemist1422, Shadoweh, Klick, Jingle With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Deadline : (expired on 2020-02-03 18:30:00)

[Kerset]

@Kers: my plan as scum is to ask about motivations of a player who hito already wants to kill before me to live longer? Do you wanna explain that?

Also, what does your intentions being different coming into d2 have to do with your motivations n2? I want to know what you were thinking after both the jj and mena flips. If anything, I’d assume you’d have more recollection of your thoughts when your expectations were smashed.

I already explained all of those, so you are not trying to understand my motivations. You are digging for any reason you can find to get me lynched, so you don't die.

[Kerset]

Still jingle, it remains unknown what kind of actions would you take? Who would you kill as vig on n2?

[Jingle]

Probably you.

Lynching you doesn’t save me.

You explained why you thought you’d be likely to be vigged, but not why town you wants to stop that when you have no way to prove yourself town.

I think I’m okay with me kers in either order but SS is still asking questions in the team pt. Kerset is probably just it. He’s doing exactly what he’s accusing me of even though I’m pretty provably not doing it.

The more I think about it, the more I think ofhrz claim just makes sense as town here. The shitton of protectives and a vig fit with the theme of Negative synergy to balance. The three one shot roles fits design symmetry for the vig to be a true claim for town. Alisae doesn’t make sense as a scum kill at all.

Kers is hardcore shading all of me/ofhrz/shadow which coincidentally is the number of mislynches scum needs to win and his posting all rings of “How do I survive” not an actual desire to solve the game.

[Jingle]

But like, seriously, why does scumofhrz kill Ali? Ali is tunneled on bitmap and was the one to start bitmap as counter to Reundo again. Es basically a free mislynch.

Why does kers’s claimed motivation for using the commute match exactly the scum motivation for using a commute? “There might be a vig who shoots me” is not a town commuter thought process.

[Kerset]

But like, seriously, why does scumofhrz kill Ali? Ali is tunneled on bitmap and was the one to start bitmap as counter to Reundo again. Es basically a free mislynch.

This is the whole point of claiming vig as scum. You make a weak kill to make it believable and hope that town will assume that real kill was prevented by doc/vest. You can't kill townread and expect people to believe that you make silly vigkill.

[Jingle]

kers is digging for any reason they can find to get ofhrz lynched, so they don't die.

Yup. It’s totally more reasonable that last scum ofhrz shoots the person tunneled on a mislynch who was themselves an obvious mislynch and commits to it N2 to make a shitty fakeclaim possible when shooting me or you makes the same fakeclaim possible without getting rid of a tvt fight. Not to mention Ali was like the last person who would’ve given mastina a bp, so any other other murky town shot would’ve been potentially better for scum by killing a powerful town role they knew existed. Before all of the claims. Then, ofhrz shoots mastina because really, they were actually a rolecop who knew that Hito only gave away a bp for the next night instead of a 1 shot bp or a full bp like mastina claimed. But she didn’t just shoot Hito with this knowledge instead of alisae because that would... not reduce the validity of the big claim in the slightest, Hito was under a ton of suspicion preclaim.

And this magical ballsy fakeclaim ends up showing perfect setup synergy.

Yeah... that’s not a thing. Ofhrz is klick level conftown.

[Jingle]

Bonus points: Kerset is arguing BOTH that ofhrz is fakeclaiming vig as scum and that they commuted to duck a vig kill, with the two of them having roughly the same information available. Faking a vig as scum when there is a vig is literally suicide but apparently at that point it was reasonable to assume there WAS a vig.

[Jingle]

I’m pretty excited to hear Kerset’s rebuttal. Not gonna lie.

[hitogoroshi]

Oh, right, still on Kerset.

UNVOTE:

I thought about e’s push on reundo but two things made me think e was scum in spite of that:
- e jumped off reundo for the bitmap wagon
- and voted Reundo because e thought reundo was going to flip town which didn’t really make sense to me

The most important factor was probably because I felt strongly about the bitmap slot being town after the d2 flip and nsg was scumreading e for like the same reasons that had me put alisae low on my tier list to begin with.

What did you think about jjh/mastinas reads? I mean, whatever degree the flip made you feel better about Bitmap-town, surely you felt

even more better

about mastina town from D2, right?

But like, seriously, why does scumofhrz kill Ali? Ali is tunneled on bitmap and was the one to start bitmap as counter to Reundo again. Es basically a free mislynch.

This just isn't true at all. I started Bitmap, jjh/Alisae/mastina came over because of me, and then Alisae re-defected back to reundo because menal argued eir back on it. Alisae was pretty strongly town from that interaction and would have been a real stretch as a mislynch, especially with mastina/myself still alive.

Though you raise a good point w/r/t my rolecop theory that I'm probably a more sensible kill for scum-masquerading-as-vig than Alisae if I got copped N1. So I should probably lower that prior downward.

Bonus points: Kerset is arguing BOTH that ofhrz is fakeclaiming vig as scum and that they commuted to duck a vig kill, with the two of them having roughly the same information available. Faking a vig as scum when there is a vig is literally suicide but apparently at that point it was reasonable to assume there WAS a vig.

This is a really silly point because as scum you can wait and see if there was a kill besides your own before deciding to claim. Ofrhz can pick Alisae to dodge protection/watch on mastina and then decide "Hey, if there's an indication that mastina got protected, I have an explanation for why I'd pick Alisae so I can fakeclaim vig". But it's not like ofrhz *has* to claim vig if there are two kills that night.

Out of time now but self-reminder to look in to jjh kill. It seemed pretty indicative of Bitmap-scum so know that I know it's not that, worth a second glance.

[Kerset]

It’s totally more reasonable that last scum ofhrz shoots the person tunneled on a mislynch who was themselves an obvious mislynch and commits to it N2 to make a shitty fakeclaim possible when shooting me or you makes the same fakeclaim possible without getting rid of a tvt fight.

If he is scum then you make better tvt then ali for sure. If you deeply believe that he made correct vig kill then it means that he did a good job at selecting his target. Dead town is dead town, mastina was the only revealed PR at the time.

Not to mention Ali was like the last person who would’ve given mastina a bp, so any other other murky town shot would’ve been potentially better for scum by killing a powerful town role they knew existed.

Vest was revealed on day 3. Kill was made on n2. If you knew that "gift" is protection rather then any other power at this point, then good for you.

Then, ofhrz shoots mastina because really, they were actually a rolecop who knew that Hito only gave away a bp for the next night instead of a 1 shot bp or a full bp like mastina claimed. But she didn’t just shoot Hito with this knowledge instead of alisae because that would... not reduce the validity of the big claim in the slightest, Hito was under a ton of suspicion preclaim.

If you use rolecop on n2 then you get your info, after n2kill. It is useful only for n3 kill.

Bonus points: Kerset thought that this game has no VT and he was wrong. It appears that different people think in different ways. I don't know whenever vig exist or not but i suspect to be one. I had to commute on n2 or n3 anyway so odds were in favor.
The whole point of reading is to look at things from proper POV, which is thing that you for some reason can't do. You can't look at things from either different player or different point of time. That is why i am able to read well jjh or bitmap, when others are blinded by relations.

[ofrhz]

What did you think about jjh/mastinas reads? I mean, whatever degree the flip made you feel better about Bitmap-town, surely you felt even more better about mastina town from D2, right?

You gotta pick who you sheep man

Me picking to sheep NSG over the other two isn’t a dig at jjh or mastina’s read accuracy - I think nsg’s reads are better than anyone else’s on site

and after all, I’m town so someone else being likely town isn’t a reason for me to value their reads more than my own unless I know they have a history of being noticeably better than average

I think mastina’s reads can be good, but her metrics for calibrating reads are certainly different from mine. I haven’t played with jjh town before

[ofrhz]

This just isn't true at all. I started Bitmap, jjh/Alisae/mastina came over because of me, and then Alisae re-defected back to reundo because menal argued eir back on it. Alisae was pretty strongly town from that interaction and would have been a real stretch as a mislynch, especially with mastina/myself still alive.

Though you raise a good point w/r/t my rolecop theory that I'm probably a more sensible kill for scum-masquerading-as-vig than Alisae if I got copped N1. So I should probably lower that prior downward.

I don’t really think alisae jumping back there makes e town. We knew scum bussed by end of d2

If it makes you feel better, I did think about vigging you for a hot second because of that last minute diversion wagon away from Reundo

But you had some interactions with mena that I didnt think were svs. and again, scum were bussing

[ofrhz]

What did you think about jjh/mastinas reads? I mean, whatever degree the flip made you feel better about Bitmap-town, surely you felt even more better about mastina town from D2, right?

You gotta pick who you sheep man

Me picking to sheep NSG over the other two isn’t a dig at jjh or mastina’s read accuracy - I think nsg’s reads are better than anyone else’s on site

and after all, I’m town so someone else being likely town isn’t a reason for me to value their reads more than my own unless I know they have a history of being noticeably better than average

I think mastina’s reads can be good, but her metrics for calibrating reads are certainly different from mine. I haven’t played with jjh town before

Also I think jjh/mastina were townreading mena as well as was I and jumped onto bitmap as opposed to Reundo end of day 1

[ofrhz]

Idk why I’m arguing this

I don’t think I should make it to 3p lylo because i don’t see how that can end well

[ofrhz]

VOTE: jingle

[Jingle]

It’s totally more reasonable that last scum ofhrz shoots the person tunneled on a mislynch who was themselves an obvious mislynch and commits to it N2 to make a shitty fakeclaim possible when shooting me or you makes the same fakeclaim possible without getting rid of a tvt fight.

If he is scum then you make better tvt then ali for sure. If you deeply believe that he made correct vig kill then it means that he did a good job at selecting his target. Dead town is dead town, mastina was the only revealed PR at the time.

Not to mention Ali was like the last person who would’ve given mastina a bp, so any other other murky town shot would’ve been potentially better for scum by killing a powerful town role they knew existed.

Vest was revealed on day 3. Kill was made on n2. If you knew that "gift" is protection rather then any other power at this point, then good for you.

Then, ofhrz shoots mastina because really, they were actually a rolecop who knew that Hito only gave away a bp for the next night instead of a 1 shot bp or a full bp like mastina claimed. But she didn’t just shoot Hito with this knowledge instead of alisae because that would... not reduce the validity of the big claim in the slightest, Hito was under a ton of suspicion preclaim.

If you use rolecop on n2 then you get your info, after n2kill. It is useful only for n3 kill.

Bonus points: Kerset thought that this game has no VT and he was wrong. It appears that different people think in different ways. I don't know whenever vig exist or not but i suspect to be one. I had to commute on n2 or n3 anyway so odds were in favor.
The whole point of reading is to look at things from proper POV, which is thing that you for some reason can't do. You can't look at things from either different player or different point of time. That is why i am able to read well jjh or bitmap, when others are blinded by relations.

So... scum ofhrz chose not to shoot conftown mastina (who, as you just pointed out was not known to be bp) in order to make literally the worst scum kill in a game where he knows fuckall about towns power level other than it justified whatever the scumteam had to make arguably the worst scum kill. (Note, not a good vigkill but the worst scumkill. While it was a decent enough vigshot, that’s not what’s relevant here.) He did this to maybegambit a vig on alisae claim, again without much setup knowledge and with a flipped town protective role. And, in order to justify this ofhrz must be an at least 2 shot multitasking rolecop because she both rolecopped Hito night 2 AND killed alisae, and also didn’t rolecop any of the actual power in the game n1, including mastina who was softclaiming pr like crazy day one, because mena clearly had no idea what her role was.

That makes less sense than “Hito shot the bp he gave to mastina.” as a gambit. Your argument that “It’s good because it worked doesn’t make any fucking sense because no one would do that as scum.

If I got tracked to a kill on my partner in a mini and then won because there was no vig that wouldn’t be good play, that would be getting incredibly lucky after making an insanely bad play. No scum would make the choices you’re saying scum ofhrz made because they’re just bad choices. Your narrative is a way to justify an ofhrz scumread, not a legitimate ofhrz scumread.

Now respond to the whole, you’re accusing me of doing something you yourself are doing but which I’m not portion.

[Jingle]

Hito, Ali and msg mutually scumread each other until bitmaps death. Mastina spent several paragraphs talking about the likelihood of scumisae after e flipped.

Ali wasn’t obvtown by any metric.

Ofhrz, stop trying to gamethrow when I’m trying to solve. You want me lynched? Fine. Let me at least make the arguments for the person you presumably KNOW to be town to be excluded from the lynch pool before you flip me. If I’m wrong and kers is town, I’d at least like the chance to win by hitting the scum in shadow/chem instead of just losing to you being an asshat. Thanks.

[Jingle]

That is why i am able to read well jjh or bitmap, when others are blinded by relations.

This combination BoP and discredit attempt is pretty fucking hilarious regardless of your alignment, given that your “I read these two players accurately!” Is the n1 scumkill I sheeped onto the day one lynch and the d3 lynch who self destructed and self hammered, AND that I’m a player who has consistently claimed to be fairly shit at subjective reads.

“I’m clearly amazing because I was roughly on par with you in the element of the game you’re the worst at!”

Fucking lol.

[ofrhz]

Eh ok we have time

UNVOTE:

[Klick]

I'm pretty happy with Kerset > Jingle > Shadow as a solve, to be honest.

[ofrhz]

Continuing: Klick is the only his confirmed town. Hito is weaker version of doc, a bit like buffed fruit vendor. Hated and loved are completely useless. Aside from ofrhz, he thinks that the two flipped scum were pretty powerful and that would justify high town power assuming the last scum was some ninja multitasking rolecop. Therefore it would be proper play lynching in the VTs (jingle > shadoweh) if ofrhz flips town. VT claims came after all PR claims and after alisae validated VT existence (locking them out of options to claim without overlapping). In general, he doesn't think chemist bus on menalque holds any water anyways. Menalque was dead the moment he claimed vig, burying him is only for towncred. There's that bit of TMI when he said ker commuted rather than accusing ker of being ascetic. It implies that he knew about kill immunity. Still 1shot vig as unconfirmable claim? Sounds ballsy enough to come from desperate scum in 1v1

To be clear, is Farkran’s POE the same as yours, kerset?

[Jingle]

I'm pretty happy with Kerset > Jingle > Shadow as a solve, to be honest.

I still want a couple of days to decide between shadow/chem, but yeah I think that’s fine with me too.

Kers, assuming both of us flip town who is your third?