Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[SherlockHolmes]

Like I just produced the entire content up to that point again in the last page and a half, and honestly what’s within it is probably more productive than anything else that was before too, and neither of you is talking to me about it or parts of it that interest you, nor are you talking to each other about it

[Farkran]

Oh, actually I think suji is locktown but it’s for a very angleshooty reason I’d rather avoid

Oh, and this. I'm very interested in this.

[SherlockHolmes]

Spoiler: Chemist

HEAL: Asriel

I think him being openly nervous about the intro is towny

lightly, but still something I wanna go off of

HEAL: Asriel

I think him being openly nervous about the intro is towny

lightly, but still something I wanna go off of

Asriel's nervous about everything.

you're probably right, but I think if he were scum he'd be more nervous about being nervous

hectic, is that why you initially voted to fight Sherlock?

Mssrs. Nachomamma8, JTheophrastus, Chemist, and Hectic: could I entice you gentlemen with the prospect of lynching our companion Alimdia?

why these names out of the entire game?

I’m not 100% on my Asriel spare, never was, but he hasn’t done anything to make him strongly trend down

I haven’t been that around tbh but you’re probably the only person I would consider moving my spare to

@Rep
I switched to Asriel from Hectic because I wanted do be doing something new with my vote

Really I don’t remember having a reason but it was probably something like that

If you think scum are trying to lurk it’s probably better to go pacifist to force them to do stuff

Why is Hectic town to you, alim?

where do you see scum, Chemist?

not hectic
probably not you, rep, or asriel
I feel like pine is a cop-out push at this point so slightly lean town there

so that leaves sherlock/nacho/alim/amrun/suji

will probably work through this soon

Asriel's ISO to me is like

town null null null null etc.

really the only thing is towny tone and him having nothing against him

This is all townposting, I think

He didn’t need to go out for asriel in the way he did, if he was defending a scumbuddy it’s an odd time to do so as there wasn’t any real pressure there at the time, but also he doesn’t double down on it — I think the strength of his read and his reasons are very reasonable

Also he’s been here, and I think a number of the questions he’s asked have been actively trying to advance the game instead of just lurk out and avoid producing. Chemist being meme-y or low content isn’t AI for him, but the level to which he’s engaged is and it’s +town

I also like him defending pine as lhf because I think that’s pretty bang on in terms of assessment

I don’t see why scum chem deliberately chooses to defend lynchable slots like asriel and pine and to put amrun/nacho (both of whom would be much harder to lynch) in his “likely scum here” pool

[SherlockHolmes]

Oh, actually I think suji is locktown but it’s for a very angleshooty reason I’d rather avoid

Oh, and this. I'm very interested in this.

I mean I explicitly said that I’d rather not as it’s very much an angle shoot and it feels icky but I can’t ignore it now that I’ve seen it

[SherlockHolmes]

Suffice to say, if you prod around suji’s meta I imagine you’ll find what I mean

[popsofctown]

Spare Votecount 1.9

Hectic ----------------------------------

(4)

Nachomamma8, Replica, Hectic, Amrun

Replica ---------------------------------

(1)

Chara

Farkran --------------------------------

(1)

Chemist1422

Amrun ----------------------------------

Chara -----------------------------------

(1)

Farkran

Nachomamma8 ------------------------

Sujimichi ----------------------------

Chemist1422 ---------------------------

SherlockHolmes -----------------------

alimdia ----------------------------------

Psyche -------------------------------------

Not sparing:

- (4) SherlockeHolmes, Sujimichi, alimdia, Psyche

Fight Votecount 1.9

Hectic ----------------------------------

Replica ----------------------------------

(1)

Chemist1422

Farkran ---------------------------------

(4)

Nachomamma8, Amrun, Sujimichi, Chara

Amrun ----------------------------------

Chara -----------------------------------

Nachomamma8 ------------------------

(1)

SherlockHolmes

Sujimichi --------------------------------

(1)

Farkran

Chemist1422 ---------------------------

SherlockHolmes ------------------------

alimdia ----------------------------------

Psyche -------------------------------------

(1)

Hectic

Not Fighting:

- (3) Psyche, alimdia, Replica

<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

3>3>3>3>3>3>3>3>

Farkran stepped forward. He felt it necessary to demonstrate leadership and set up the game for the best chance of being organized, fulfilling, and fun.
"For a designing game, we definitely need someone to record votes, and keep record of authorship, to keep things straight. That will tie somebody up a little bit. If we pick someone who wouldn't be creative and have good design ideas anyway, little is lost. Hmmmm...."
Farkran rubbed his left horn thoughtfully while he looked around at the other younglings, thinking to himself which one seemed the least spontaneous. Or maybe one that relies on others' creativity in their primary hobby.
"You," Farkran said, pointing at Sujimichi. "You like bookkeeping anyway. Dad says, delegate delegate, and trust in your friends. You can be stenographer, Sujimichi, and sit out to record for us." Farkran is not malicious in his intentions, but Sujimichi's mouth dropped into an open frown, showing just a bit of forked tongue.
"I .. would be interested in playing. Not to disagree with you of all people. Just, if you would consider it."
Farkran slowly clenched his hands, worried he would be a bad budding leader if he did not stand strong. And all the monsters were watching.
"No I said you sit out. Don't you understand it would be an honor? Imagine it is like being knighted."
Sujimichi felt cornered, and nervously fidgeted.

With eleven players alive, it takes six votes to make a decision.
This deadline is finalized, it will not change unless there is somehow an additional replacement:
(expired on 2020-02-01 19:00:00)

Replacement Key

[Sujimichi]

It genuinely pains me that neither of you is engaging with the wealth of content that I just produced

I believe I answered your question regarding my stance on Nachomamma8. Would you like to discuss that further, or is there something else you would like to discuss?

[SherlockHolmes]

I felt like alim’s push on me early was scummy because it reminded me of scum looking for something to push rather than trying to genuinely decide if the action was scum motivated or not

He actually does improve on another glance through his iso, and so I’m not set on him being definite scum

Some parts of his reads posts seemed like IIOA and he doesn’t seem that interested in following up on the things he says he’s interested in. If you’ll forgive me the egoism, he said he wanted to see what game of my question to (nacho, chem, jtheo etc) but didn’t follow up there or do anything with anyone who did answer (I can’t remember who it was rn). Moreover, I think there’s a general lack of direction to his posting or interest in figuring things out which is probably +scum

[SherlockHolmes]

It genuinely pains me that neither of you is engaging with the wealth of content that I just produced

I believe I answered your question regarding my stance on Nachomamma8. Would you like to discuss that further, or is there something else you would like to discuss?

I was more hoping for some commentary on what I’ve produced directed from you rather than me interrogating you on it

[Sujimichi]

My dislike of your comment upon replace in is divorced my read on your predecessor. You can believe that to be genuine or not and I cannot change that. I find requesting opinions from others rather than providing your own and then requesting others’ to be indicative of Mafia. You may posit alternative rationale, but I disagree with it.

I might have believed that if you changed your read from my pred to me based on that comment, but after your opportunistic vote in 264, there's almost no world in which i would believe your latest read on me is divorced from that. Also, if i had to request opinions as mafia, i would likely read or ask for them in my scum PT, don't you think? That's not even the main issue here though, the most significant problem with your comment is that you have IMMEDIATELY tried to shot me down, putting weight on an already existing scumread which was necessarily weak, given that it was parked on a lurker slot. This is how you push a mislynch, not how you try to scumhunt.

pedit @sherlock: i'm trying to take advantage of you being here to reread your ISO, but i'm not sure if i have any particular question for you besides talk me more about almidia and chemist. My read of almidia is not particularly strong, but i certainly wouldn't place chemist in my top townreads.

I have said what I intend to say regarding your view on my stance on you and your predecessor. I will not engage further and the other players can decide from the content provided. I will express that I seem to view “lurker” slots differently than you in that I do not think that keeping them in the game in hopes a replacement will provide more content is beneficial. I also believe that you are attributing your method of playing the game with the only way of playing the game, and using that as a basis to read other players is suboptimal as everyone plays this game in a different manner.

If you would like to engage on other subjects, I look forward to it.

[SherlockHolmes]

That is to say: there is content where there was none. How has it changed your understanding of me and my play, or how has it influenced your view on the game or on other players?

And I’d like that to come from you instead of me aiming you at the bits I think are most relevant for a couple of reasons

One being that if you’re town which I think you very likely are, it will let you perhaps indicate to me what I might be looking at differently or missing

Also if scum then it forces you to take the initiative which I think is harder to do when scum and being asked to provide original thoughts on the game because you already know everything. This would be useful if the thing I’m reading you as town on is a false positive and you are actually scum. Call it insurance against your alignment or me doing my due diligence

[Sujimichi]

It genuinely pains me that neither of you is engaging with the wealth of content that I just produced

I believe I answered your question regarding my stance on Nachomamma8. Would you like to discuss that further, or is there something else you would like to discuss?

I was more hoping for some commentary on what I’ve produced directed from you rather than me interrogating you on it

Apologies. I will take another look at what you have said. I have admittedly been somewhat distracted.

[SherlockHolmes]

Lurkers being replaced can be highly beneficial, but I agree with you that fark is limited by seeing the game from his own perspective and not from that of others.

I think you’re town v town most likely

[SherlockHolmes]

Are you a guy or a girl, suji?

[SherlockHolmes]

I’m aware that’s a slightly random question, but I’d always thought you were a guy but saw in your recently completed micro that people were referring to you as a she

[SherlockHolmes]

I ask because I think it’s directly relevant to my reading of your tone, but I get it if you’d prefer not to answer

[Farkran]

Spoiler: Chemist

HEAL: Asriel

I think him being openly nervous about the intro is towny

lightly, but still something I wanna go off of

HEAL: Asriel

I think him being openly nervous about the intro is towny

lightly, but still something I wanna go off of

Asriel's nervous about everything.

you're probably right, but I think if he were scum he'd be more nervous about being nervous

hectic, is that why you initially voted to fight Sherlock?

Mssrs. Nachomamma8, JTheophrastus, Chemist, and Hectic: could I entice you gentlemen with the prospect of lynching our companion Alimdia?

why these names out of the entire game?

I’m not 100% on my Asriel spare, never was, but he hasn’t done anything to make him strongly trend down

I haven’t been that around tbh but you’re probably the only person I would consider moving my spare to

@Rep
I switched to Asriel from Hectic because I wanted do be doing something new with my vote

Really I don’t remember having a reason but it was probably something like that

If you think scum are trying to lurk it’s probably better to go pacifist to force them to do stuff

Why is Hectic town to you, alim?

where do you see scum, Chemist?

not hectic
probably not you, rep, or asriel
I feel like pine is a cop-out push at this point so slightly lean town there

so that leaves sherlock/nacho/alim/amrun/suji

will probably work through this soon

Asriel's ISO to me is like

town null null null null etc.

really the only thing is towny tone and him having nothing against him

This is all townposting, I think

He didn’t need to go out for asriel in the way he did, if he was defending a scumbuddy it’s an odd time to do so as there wasn’t any real pressure there at the time, but also he doesn’t double down on it — I think the strength of his read and his reasons are very reasonable

Also he’s been here, and I think a number of the questions he’s asked have been actively trying to advance the game instead of just lurk out and avoid producing. Chemist being meme-y or low content isn’t AI for him, but the level to which he’s engaged is and it’s +town

I also like him defending pine as lhf because I think that’s pretty bang on in terms of assessment

I don’t see why scum chem deliberately chooses to defend lynchable slots like asriel and pine and to put amrun/nacho (both of whom would be much harder to lynch) in his “likely scum here” pool

Eh, i am not sure i agree with this. There are reasons to defend a weak slot, as much as there are for pushing it. It depends a lot on the timing and the way you do it. For instance, i don't believe that people who were scumreading asriel were inherently scummy for that motive alone. My pred's ISO is not good. Just as Pine/Psyche isn't. Pushing a lurker slot makes sense, but only as a compromise, policy or for the lack of a better option. In a game where people's consensus is torn between fighting and sparing, i'd say there are A LOT of other options, even though i disagree with that. This is also the reason why i asked people who are scumreading me, what led them to this gamestate. I didn't receive any really satisfying answer so far - i have yet to read Chara and Nacho's ISOs, but i have both of them as townlean/townread so far.

Chemist has done nothing particularly town indicative, i think (skimmed his ISO right now). Nothing scummy either. It strikes me weird that you would place him as such a strong townread, just as it would have struck me weird if you placed him as your highest scumread. I have meta with town!chemist in another mini theme, the same i played with town!sujimichi. Both are fairly distant from my knowledge of their meta, but sujimichi here is plain scummy, whereas chemist is more on the null side.

Suffice to say, if you prod around suji’s meta I imagine you’ll find what I mean

I will take a look at his recent posts tomorrow, but... eh.

[Farkran]

My dislike of your comment upon replace in is divorced my read on your predecessor. You can believe that to be genuine or not and I cannot change that. I find requesting opinions from others rather than providing your own and then requesting others’ to be indicative of Mafia. You may posit alternative rationale, but I disagree with it.

I might have believed that if you changed your read from my pred to me based on that comment, but after your opportunistic vote in 264, there's almost no world in which i would believe your latest read on me is divorced from that. Also, if i had to request opinions as mafia, i would likely read or ask for them in my scum PT, don't you think? That's not even the main issue here though, the most significant problem with your comment is that you have IMMEDIATELY tried to shot me down, putting weight on an already existing scumread which was necessarily weak, given that it was parked on a lurker slot. This is how you push a mislynch, not how you try to scumhunt.

pedit @sherlock: i'm trying to take advantage of you being here to reread your ISO, but i'm not sure if i have any particular question for you besides talk me more about almidia and chemist. My read of almidia is not particularly strong, but i certainly wouldn't place chemist in my top townreads.

I have said what I intend to say regarding your view on my stance on you and your predecessor. I will not engage further and the other players can decide from the content provided. I will express that I seem to view “lurker” slots differently than you in that I do not think that keeping them in the game in hopes a replacement will provide more content is beneficial. I also believe that you are attributing your method of playing the game with the only way of playing the game, and using that as a basis to read other players is suboptimal as everyone plays this game in a different manner.

If you would like to engage on other subjects, I look forward to it.

Sorry, but i am unable to see it as a playstyle issue. My method of playing the game might not be the best, but from my pov and my read of your reaction to my introduction, i fail to see how you are not pushing a mislynch here. On the contrary, i agree with you on the fact that lurkers should NOT be saved in hope a replacements come in, but once it does, furthering a weak scumread by inducting scumminess on newer posts is... bad. This is not going to change, but i can respect your will to disengage from this specific topic.

Do you have any other scumread?

[SherlockHolmes]

Lynching lurkers as a compromise is one of the main ways in which towns lose games

Scum push one or two wagons up, town gets exhausted as the factions battle it out and then those wagons are potential mislynches down the line and a lurker has been got

An ISO being empty doesn’t mean the ISO is bad — the pine/pysche ISO isn’t bad, it’s just that there’s nothing there. If there were posts and there was still nothing there it might be bad, but as it stands it’s just... meh

People are notoriously bad at reading chemist because they think him lurking is NAI and fail to engage with what he does on its own terms. If you engage with chemist

as chemist

he’s very readable, and has produced solidly AI content even if there’s been a lot of memeing and not being serious and just being fun alongside it

It’s a matter of looking through the static to find the meaningful image, and that is possible from what he’s done thus far. I would be very surprised if chemist flipped scum this game

[SherlockHolmes]

I will probably out the reason for locktown!suji if you two aren’t able to see that your interaction is screaming town talking past each other rather than SvT

[SherlockHolmes]

But as mentioned, I’d prefer not to

[Farkran]

Lynching lurkers as a compromise is one of the main ways in which towns lose games

Scum push one or two wagons up, town gets exhausted as the factions battle it out and then those wagons are potential mislynches down the line and a lurker has been got

An ISO being empty doesn’t mean the ISO is bad — the pine/pysche ISO isn’t bad, it’s just that there’s nothing there. If there were posts and there was still nothing there it might be bad, but as it stands it’s just... meh

People are notoriously bad at reading chemist because they think him lurking is NAI and fail to engage with what he does on its own terms. If you engage with chemist

as chemist

he’s very readable, and has produced solidly AI content even if there’s been a lot of memeing and not being serious and just being fun alongside it

It’s a matter of looking through the static to find the meaningful image, and that is possible from what he’s done thus far. I would be very surprised if chemist flipped scum this game

I had a different experience though - statistical analysis of MY games (i'm being specific here) shows that lurkers have flipped red more than they flipped green. I think compromising on a lurker is not necessarily a bad idea - again, assuming the lack of better options - but it only validates a weak read on the slot and is never a reason to ignore a heavy gamestate change as sujimichi did.

I will probably out the reason for locktown!suji if you two aren’t able to see that your interaction is screaming town talking past each other rather than SvT

You might as well. But if you really don't want to, i'll try to metadive suji later (tomorrow, 1.30 am here) and see if i can get on your same wavelength.

Again though, exchanges like this are more useful to read the talking slots rather than the objects they're talking about - unless you are specifically scum with suji, i am reconsidering you as a strong townlean.

[Replica]

It genuinely pains me that neither of you is engaging with the wealth of content that I just produced

I will when I get home, very glad to have you join us!

[Sujimichi]

HURT: unvote

I can agree to forgo this for now given I believe Farkran will, with more certainty, make his alignment known in a way that I can understand it. I do not see how you are reading our interaction as necessarily Town versus Town though, SherlockHolmes.

I did read through your content and I find most of it to be concerning Nachomamma8, Pine/Psyche being a null read, and Chemist-422 being a town lean. I have commented on the first. I agree with the second. I cannot say on the third as I do not see enough from Chemist1422 to make a determination one way or the other.

HURT: Nachomamma8

[Farkran]

@Chara, reading your ISO now.

Spoiler: chara

HURT: Amrun

this

does

feel more like a round of thundersnail than an exciting battle between good and evil, i can't argue with that.
but Amrun, i'd like to poke the tiger here and see if we can't jumpstart this game a little more, given you expressed a regret at not doing that so far.
i was thinking your fight with Sujimichi was about as low-stakes as mine, so why not fight Asriel with Nacho instead of just nodding at it?

Sujimichi made a good point about who i was fighting. i did think Billy's initial action was suspicious, and wanted to find out more, but it can't do that now and sitting there isn't going to do anything.
Sujimichi didn't exactly impress me when they decided to tag in, but the way they pressed on their friendly neighbourhood idea, and especially the end of 226, really does feel like Sujimichi is just a straightforward sort!
we might not ever be really

good

friends, but i don't think someone with too much to hide usually responds to me like that.

Asriel's definitely boring me here... i don't mind getting him into things, either.

though... i do hope your volcano metaphor remains a metaphor. he's still my brother. if anyone's going to be holding him over a volcano, it's going to be me.

275: me? two-timing? i'm the most honest child you could ever meet.
the way my conversation with Sujimichi went made me like them more. they were very matter of fact with their read on me, and i felt like i was being figured out some.
it feels either short-sighted or assumptive (is this a word? i'll make it one anyways) to say there are only two ways to approach someone you scumread, towntelling.
and more importantly... thanking me a couple of times didn't have much to do with the read getting better. that'd be pretty

bizarre

, wouldn't it?

HURT: Asriel

i know your post wasn't entirely directed at me, Replica, but you aren't wrong.
i will hopefully do a better job of being myself tomorrow.
i don't know if it's a better idea to make friends or enemies right now. i know there's been a great deal of debate on the subject, but my ignorance of things like 'logic' and 'strategy' sorely hurts my competence in parsing them.

one thing i really don't understand is saying that lynching today is a waste. i know that the rules are quite different in this sort of game, but is it really a waste? it's one thing if i'm very confident we're sparing town, but while i certainly enjoy Hectic's company i'm not sure i would bet the game on it.

as for Replica themself, i find this persona one that's likely difficult to fake.
i should really pay more attention to what alimdia is saying as well, if only to be thorough.

Amrun is a difficult case in that i agree with what she's said, and can identify with that. such as 254 as i mentioned. (about not wanting to let up on Sujimichi) but i don't know if making sense is enough.

Amrun, what about Replica did you like more? besides the contextual mistakes, which were rectified when pointed out, i feel like their posting feel has been fairly consistent since they replaced in.

It seems that you too - but to a lesser extent - are suffering from a bit of internal inconsistency. Your vote on me seems reasonable in a vacuum. However, could you lead me to understand why, out of a 1v1v1 between you-amrun-suji, you chose to reconsider suji in the end? How are you feeling about him right now? What about Amrun? Why did you decide to join both on the wagon against me?

I mean, by reading your posts it seems that you are having an hard time figuring out a scumread (admittedly, you said you are better at townhunting). Who are the slots you would describe as most unreadable?