Mini 626 - Crew vs. Pigs - GAME OVER!!


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Post Post #200 (ISO) » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:08 am

Post by darkdude »

this bit is so rushing. a bit too early to say things like this. it bothers me. My problem is that I don't like either of the alternatives he's mentioned. I don't see why he should have even mentioned a no lynch in the first place.
I don't think it is commonly interpreted as rushing. Rather, if I voted for him without saying what I plan for the day it would seem more like I want to lynch him ASAP. Like I said, I personally put the vote there just to have my vote hopefully do something by adding pressure.

I mentioned No Lynch
because
it is the least ideal way to end a day. That should put some perspective on how much I'm "rushing" for Chenhsi's lynch.
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Post Post #201 (ISO) » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:27 am

Post by forbiddanlight »

Ugh...I have to save it. I'm mostly through page 6, but I have to make dinner, clean up dishes, sing in choir, and be back around 8:00 PM EST. I'm really sorry about this, but I think it will be worth it to see a fresh in depth look on things.
"Never have I seen anybody glorify their own lynch."
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TTGL Mafia is over. Going to mod [b]Umineko No [color=red]Na[/color]ku Koro Ni[/b] Mafia. Pre-/ins, as always, are accepted.
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Post Post #202 (ISO) » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:15 am

Post by raider8169 »

forbiddanlight wrote:Ugh...I have to save it. I'm mostly through page 6, but I have to make dinner, clean up dishes, sing in choir, and be back around 8:00 PM EST. I'm really sorry about this, but I think it will be worth it to see a fresh in depth look on things.
Im looking forward to reading it.
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Post Post #203 (ISO) » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:40 pm

Post by ting =) »

any lynch is better than a no lynch, that's understood. there was no need to compare the two, it doesn't add any perspective at all.

it reads more like you were trying to foist two alternatives, and then later retracted one and explained it as just being, 'for perspective.'
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Post Post #204 (ISO) » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:28 pm

Post by Cass »

That's not how it read to me. Sounded to me like: Chenhsi is a sad choice, only marginally better than no-lynch. Which is a fair opinion. Personally I would much prefer lynching a worse than useless townie over no lynch. I find lurking extremely anti-town.
Can't bake an omelette without killing a few people.
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Post Post #205 (ISO) » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:15 pm

Post by raider8169 »

Cass wrote:That's not how it read to me. Sounded to me like: Chenhsi is a sad choice, only marginally better than no-lynch. Which is a fair opinion. Personally I would much prefer lynching a worse than useless townie over no lynch. I find lurking extremely anti-town.
It seems we have alot of anti-town type people in this game. I could see the lynch of one based of that and just hoping they are also scum but not when we have alot of lurking going on.
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Post Post #206 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:37 am

Post by Matin »

forbiddanlight wrote:Ugh...I have to save it. I'm mostly through page 6, but I have to make dinner, clean up dishes, sing in choir, and be back around 8:00 PM EST. I'm really sorry about this, but I think it will be worth it to see a fresh in depth look on things.
So we're waiting on Forbiddanlight and Chenshi? Both of whom seem to be slow readers. Chensi's at like 38.5 hours and counting and forbiddan's at almost 24 hours..

I'm suspecting that Chenshi has no intention of providing a case and is just stalling until the town becomes preoccupied with something else. At least Forbidden is providing updates
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Post Post #207 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:06 am

Post by forbiddanlight »

Actually, what happened was when I planned to get back last night, it was later than I thought because of some random life things. I'm seeing a psychologist shortly, and SHOULD be ready to finish up my reread when I get back (likely 1ish, meaning it'll likely be up between 2 or 3). This is provided...interesting things don't happen IRL (they shouldn't). Either way, the reason it's taking me so long is because I type a summary while I read so I can examine everything in brief and put it all together in the context of the player. That summary typing is what takes me forever.
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Post Post #208 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:16 am

Post by darkdude »

any lynch is better than a no lynch, that's understood. there was no need to compare the two, it doesn't add any perspective at all.

it reads more like you were trying to foist two alternatives, and then later retracted one and explained it as just being, 'for perspective.'
I never considered having No Lynch for today. If that's not how you personally read it, fine. I'm not going to try to change your manner of perception.

My statement clearly says that I support resorting to lynching the inactive should there be no better choice, as opposed to letting unmotivated players slip and ignored.
It seems we have alot of anti-town type people in this game. I could see the lynch of one based of that and just hoping they are also scum but not when we have alot of lurking going on.
Yes, that's why I don't think it's a fair issue for us to deal with. We can't simply lynch all the lurkers when we have two or three of them. However, I've been thinking about this, and I have come to the conclusion that it would be more likely to yield results if we pressure the inactive that's trying NOT to appear inactive. Chenhsi seems hell-bent on being useless, while Cubsfan seems trying to give some input when reminded of his inactivity. So I'll think I'll switch my vote back to where it was originally.

Unvote

Vote: Cubsfan4ever
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Post Post #209 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:37 am

Post by forbiddanlight »

ALRIGHT! I finished the summary! Feelings to follow. (this part takes a short time)
"Never have I seen anybody glorify their own lynch."
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TTGL Mafia is over. Going to mod [b]Umineko No [color=red]Na[/color]ku Koro Ni[/b] Mafia. Pre-/ins, as always, are accepted.
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Post Post #210 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:16 am

Post by forbiddanlight »

Also, AtE is Appeal to Emotion. Sorry that wasn't clear. Now, starting:

raider: I don't like what I see much at all. He seems more concerned about the set up than hunting scum. And while everyone else doesn't believe he was rolefishing earlier, I damn well do. Also, I didn't like how he said there was no deadline. There is a deadline, 3 weeks from the start of D1. Is he trying to lull us into complacency? Either way, while he's done somewhat scummy things, it's actually not that strong a case. Oh yeah, also, there seems to be a bit of covering for each other between DD and raider. If one is scum, I would heavily favor a close look at the other and likely a lynch. I lean slight scum here for now.

Cass: I like her. She thinks about things, such as DD's claim, which she definitely gave a lot of thought to before making it null in her eyes. However...she took a meta read on chen...and then kept her vote on him despite this being SOP for chen? I don't like the fact she hasn't unvoted him if this is normal and he's at L-2. Also not good is "Let's kill a less than useless townie"...than again, compared to no lynch, it's not as bad for policy. Considering most of her behaviors have seemed town, despite the chen issue, I lean slight town. But I want to hear her explain why if chen always does this she's still for killing him.

Matin: For the most part, town oriented. He started believing DD, but as he noticed discrepancies which he looked for he got to FoSing him and encourage DD as vig kill. However...we have that policy lynch attitude with chenhsi:
"imo, the speed of the wagon is bothersome, but as of right now I think Chenhsi is probably the best target for it. Either he's scum or useless town (which isn't a horrible thing to shake off on day 1)"
This isn't good. It's less justifiable than Cass' as well. I'm not really sure on him for now, so neutral.


This is the summary I wrote for myself. I'm not gonna analyze it. I'll leave that to you guys. I hope it helps.
forbiddanlight: Votes Cass based on her name and her birthday. Also says hi. Responds to roleclaim inclined to trust it, says cop should investigate sometime if there is a cop. Points out Ting forgot her. Sticks to believing it unless DD's behavior proves him scum. Agrees with raider about groups, due to false dichotomies. Also doesn't know what to do, might as well keep discussing. Also says cop should investigate DD. Unvotes her random vote, FoS' Kison for his unexplained vote. Still hates camps, saying it's a psychological effect that will take place. Wants reaction analysis now, beyond the agree/disagree analysis, thinks that for now DD doesn't need to be lynched, but shouldn't live to lylo. Explains that seeing obvious ties between two people means that if one is scummy and is lynched, and turns up scum, the other should be heavily considered the next day. Agrees planning too far ahead would be bad. Wanted to see reactions to her idea that he shouldn't make it to lylo. Also, agrees with Matin's plan that if DD is scummy, he gets it. She still wants to believe the claim, even as a null tell. Talks about the cop thing, how she's 50/50 on it, but after looking at it, she agrees the cop shouldn't investigate DD, it'd be a waste. Answers Fonz, saying that when she said it was unsafe as a gambit, she forgot GF, since a claim begs investigation. Denies she was directing cop, just saying it might be a good idea, and left it at hope. Accuses fonz of vig directing. Understands Fonz' point, points out she retracted her stance, and wasn't trying to cop direct anyway. says if telling the cop not to view someone is direction, look at Matin and others who feel it's a waste. Says she was trying to speak thoughts on the situation, un FoS' Kison, understands he was giving her a chance, but that cop may not exist, and really, the cop will do what they want. Comes back, posts how the chenhsi wagon was too fast, and states she would be on it if it weren't for that. She wants to hear chenhsi actually defend himself. Would rather test DD's claim with a vig shot, if there is a vig. If the vig doesn't shoot him, or there is no vig, lynch him if he keeps seeming scummy, and if he survives a vig shot, trust his claim more. Threatens to take chenhsi to L-1 if he doesn't post by 9 PM EST the next day. Feels that chenhsi is reacting as scum, and trying to AtE. Says she thought she said reread before voting chen, not a time limit. Either way, she's going to reread now and post in 2 hours. Also says the time felt longer than it was, and her earlier comment was imprudent haste, so she won't follow through.

Kison: Moves around a lot. I don't get good vibes from him, but he's on the level given the analysis. Maybe it's just OMGUS. But basically, he does ask good questions...I just would like to see how he reacts if the spotlight ever lands on him for some reason. For now, lean town, despite my gut.

cubsfan: So wonderfully lurktastic. Wonder why we don't have a wagon on him yet. the dislike of DD's claim was warranted...the vote wasn't I don't think since most of us were for a vig test. What nags at me is for the most part cub has lurked, and says the chen wagon is a distraction made by DD. It could be he's afraid if chen is lynched for lurking, he'll be next. But...that's just being paranoid. Really, I don't have enough material to lean either way...though he does seem to try to get others to do the leg work. Call it slight scum at best.

Ennui: Also semi lurkish, but contributes when he does post. Has good thoughts on the reason for DD's claim, well, at least good at putting forth alternatives. What bothers me a bit is the question about factions. Why do you need to know? If you are town, kill scum. If you are scum though, knowing about another faction to use might be beneficial. It's weak though, just something I thought I'd point out. Favors a chen lynch with reasonable spin on the lurking explanation. It's actually reasonably good the way he put it. But anyway, I do lean slight town because he's trying, even if he's not posting all the time.

Ting: I feel REALLY bad about him, as I'm about to get into. What got my eye on him was the fact that he quite often attacked raider based on the supposed NK immune GF argument, when anyone who was bothering to figure out what he meant would know he was thinking in an only mafia situation. The fact you pressed it after that was adequetly explored bespeaks you trying to look insightful by pushing a bullshit case that isn't even related to raider's scumminess. The other stuff he's said hasn't been much for me either way. I pretty much lean scum here.

chen: The man of the hour, and wow he looks bad. Every post he's made has been essentially irrelevant to the game, and when he's in trouble, he rolls over and dies. In fact...it's kinda reach a level of scumminess that makes me wonder if he's honestly scum or just a horrid player. But, either way, it's anti town to roll over under a wagon if you are town. If you are scum, the only reason to do it that way is the appeal to emotion I mentioned. As town, any wagon on you should be fought to the death, and THAT is why rolling over is a scum tell. Either way, I hate the early hypocrisy and the later giving up...so I still lean scum here.

DD: Has claimed a role, but his play has been somewhat scummy. If DD is scum, I'd be looking at raider as scum too. Raider seems to be backing up everything DD says, and when this is pointed out, suddenly DD starts going against raider and saying he's probing for his own interests. He's also too non committal. There is always something scummy going on if you look for it. To be honest, I agree, you either are who you say you are and play a bit too much for yourself, or you are the Godfather. Hopefully, if there is a vig, we'll get this distinction tonight.

Ghyrt: Another chen voter, but with the same sort of hypocrisy on lurkers and the idea that if you don't post, you can't slip reasons for voting (as Ennui). I think this looks better than that "bad townie needs to die" policy lynch attitude. I lean slight town.

The Fonz: Replaced in around page 4 or 5 IIRC, and looked alright in the vig/cop direction debate...the only problem is where is he now on the current debate? All he's said is something about players needing to deal with lurkers, but doesn't deal with the lurker so to speak. I don't like this apparent difference, or the fact he hasn't been around much. But, I don't have much to go on for feeling town or scum with him. Given his earlier views, I will lean slight town.

Alright, all done...my vote is now up...and to be honest, given that I don't like either Ting or chen, and chen is too close to lynch to push right now unless we have more,
Vote:Ting
for the reasons outlined above. Sorry, it just looks too much like you've been trying to seem effective without actually debating anything.
"Never have I seen anybody glorify their own lynch."
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TTGL Mafia is over. Going to mod [b]Umineko No [color=red]Na[/color]ku Koro Ni[/b] Mafia. Pre-/ins, as always, are accepted.
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Post Post #211 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:38 pm

Post by raider8169 »

forbiddanlight wrote:ALRIGHT! I finished the summary! Feelings to follow. (this part takes a short time)
Wow, I think thats a really good summary, dont like that you think I could be scum however with me standing behind DD I can see why. Just to explain that a little I just stand behind him because I want to give him a chance.
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Post Post #212 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:01 pm

Post by forbiddanlight »



Wow, I think thats a really good summary, dont like that you think I could be scum however with me standing behind DD I can see why. Just to explain that a little I just stand behind him because I want to give him a chance.
It's really weak on you. And that wasn't the summary, that was the feelings. I kept the summary to myself unless people REALLY want to read an incredibly long post that tells you everything you already know. And as I said, I only lean slight scum on you for now, and feel a lot is contingent on the result of a vig test of DD if there is a vig.
"Never have I seen anybody glorify their own lynch."
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TTGL Mafia is over. Going to mod [b]Umineko No [color=red]Na[/color]ku Koro Ni[/b] Mafia. Pre-/ins, as always, are accepted.
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Post Post #213 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:13 pm

Post by raider8169 »

forbiddanlight wrote:It's really weak on you. And that wasn't the summary, that was the feelings. I kept the summary to myself unless people REALLY want to read an incredibly long post that tells you everything you already know. And as I said, I only lean slight scum on you for now, and feel a lot is contingent on the result of a vig test of DD if there is a vig.
I agree about the Vig, but I think that would kill him as it sounded like he could only not get arrested. Only time will tell.
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Post Post #214 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:26 pm

Post by forbiddanlight »

He seems confident he's NK proof. A vig kill would merely test that, and if it failed, it would gain us an asset in having a confirmed human (well, mostly confirmed) that can't be NK'd. Course, it'd be annoying if the vig kill did succeed and he was human...but in my opinion, without the claim, I'd possibly be considering voting him because he has been relatively scummy (of course, that's also in the context of this game where he did claim, and that was a rather big part of all the discussion, so I guess that wouldn't exactly make sense anyway). But either way, the vig is the best test for that claim. I rather hope there is one, lol.
"Never have I seen anybody glorify their own lynch."
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TTGL Mafia is over. Going to mod [b]Umineko No [color=red]Na[/color]ku Koro Ni[/b] Mafia. Pre-/ins, as always, are accepted.
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Post Post #215 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by darkdude »

Well it is indeed interesting. I don't recall raider buddying up and helping me, but I think you're referring to when he asked "Does everyone agree he is town or scum?", which I now see could be seen as trying to reinforce a scum buddy's claim.

It's also interesting that your longest summary was on your own moves. I don't really think there is a need for someone to summarize their own play, and this is the first time I've seen this done. So I can't say if this is something out of the ordinary or just due to my inexperience.

I sort of agree with your feel on Ting, Fonz and Kison. It seems their style is to address issues when needed, but otherwise keep the posting to a minimum. For me it creates more ambiguity as it is difficult to read their pattern, and seems like their moves are more checked, calculated and filtered. Could be my paranoia, but I don't like this type of ambiguity.

About your specific case on Ting though, I'll need some more time to look over those pages again before I can evaluate it.
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Post Post #216 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:31 pm

Post by darkdude »

He seems confident he's NK proof. A vig kill would merely test that, and if it failed, it would gain us an asset in having a confirmed human (well, mostly confirmed) that can't be NK'd. Course, it'd be annoying if the vig kill did succeed and he was human...
Uh...I'm positive that I am human, and not a chimpanzee, so I don't know what you're talking about :lol:
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Post Post #217 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:39 pm

Post by forbiddanlight »


It's also interesting that your longest summary was on your own moves. I don't really think there is a need for someone to summarize their own play, and this is the first time I've seen this done. So I can't say if this is something out of the ordinary or just due to my inexperience.
That's because that was from my summary text. That wasn't a feeling analysis on myself. It basically just says everything I've done thus far. Basically, the first two analyses I did on this site had a summary in one post, and feelings in the next. People would usually tl;dr this, so I'm trying a different tack. However, there's no point providing feelings on myself, so I give you the straight summary so that you can determine what you want to do. Feel free to check it, you'll find I include everything.
Uh...I'm positive that I am human, and not a chimpanzee, so I don't know what you're talking about Laughing
My apologies. Originally what got me into mafia was TWG, so sometimes I slip and say human instead of townie. If I say human at any point, I mean townie, and if I say wolf instead of scum or mafia, I meant those.

About your specific case on Ting though, I'll need some more time to look over those pages again before I can evaluate it.
Part of it is gut, and the fact that as I read, I really disliked what he was doing to raider, since it was a patently ridiculous argument.
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Post Post #218 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:44 pm

Post by Matin »

Nice summary FL. I take back my slow reader remark ;)

re: Chenhsi, he's now over 50 hours out. I know you don't like the policy lynch attitude but I don't much like waiting for noting either..

My other most scummy is Darkdude, but he's more or less untouchable today imo..

ting's fixation with the whole godfather/NK immunity struck me as odd as well. He seems too smart not to have grasped what Raider was getting at, but I don't really see any scummy motives for that line of conversation to be honest.
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Post Post #219 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:52 pm

Post by forbiddanlight »


ting's fixation with the whole godfather/NK immunity struck me as odd as well. He seems too smart not to have grasped what Raider was getting at, but I don't really see any scummy motives for that line of conversation to be honest.

Appearance of contribution. He posted a lot. When you post a lot, it naturally makes people trust you more. Take a look at the lurker attitude :P. It also seemed like he was making a point...the first time maybe :P.

As for chenhsi...I lean scum on him, as I said, but I don't like some of the reasons people are voting him. If he dies and flips town, I think I'll be elevating my scum read on some of the people who went with "Let's kill a less than useless townie". Realize we have 12 days to decide (deadline is the 28th). There's no need to rush chenhsi.
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TTGL Mafia is over. Going to mod [b]Umineko No [color=red]Na[/color]ku Koro Ni[/b] Mafia. Pre-/ins, as always, are accepted.
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Post Post #220 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:20 pm

Post by Cubsfan4ever »

darkdude, it's more of a "I only get around to checking the boards once every one or two days" type deal than actively lurking. I post when around but I'm not going to spend hours and hours on mafiascum each day if that's what you do.

I don't get all this clamoring for a vig test to mean anything. If he is scum then it's most probable to assume he made that claim as a Godfather, knowing he would be vig proof and have NK immunity. Thus it gets "tested" he lives and his claim looks better. I really don't see how we could be more sure of him then than we could be right now.

Really, the whole claim thing is odd. He says it's so we have a known town who we can trust but even if he's telling the truth how can we be expected to know it for sure? Obviously we can't. The way it's structured he should want the scum to try and kill him so that they will waste a kill that night. If he's telling the truth, then scum will know not to waste a kill and the whole thing is for waste. However, it makes a bit more sense to go with it if he's a Godfather so a Vig could test it and he can be like "Look, I really am NK-immune!" I think the inconsistent way he described the flavor "I can't be arrested by pigs...nobody can kill me" may have been a gaffe of a scum doing a fake role-claim.

That's just the vibe I get and why darkdude will remain my vote for now.
Unban me please

At the very least, at least respond to my unanswered PMs mith.
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Post Post #221 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:49 pm

Post by cicero »

Goatrevolt replaces Chenhsi effective immediately.
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Post Post #222 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:04 pm

Post by Goatrevolt »

Hey, I just replaced Chenhsi, who appears to have a bit of a wagon on him. I probably won't have an opportunity to read through this game until tomorrow, but I should definitely have something by tomorrow evening.
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Post Post #223 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:35 pm

Post by Cass »

Hey goat! Very pleased to see you replace Chenhsi. That also takes away the reason for my vote (I think I can safely assume Goat isn't a lurker).

Unvote Goatrevolt
(Chenhsi)

To answer Forbiddan: I have kept my vote on Chen because I really hate this 'playstyle' of his. It was in other words a meta-reason, I was trying to see if it was at all possible to get him to participate or if I should just give up. However, I never intended him to get lynched (well, not this early in the day at least). He was at L-2, seemed safe enough to me. If someone had put him at L-1, I would have unvoted.

With Cubsfan posting again, I don't think anyone is lurking enough anymore to justify a vote. This is very good. I'd like to hear more from Ghyrt and The Fonz though.
@The Fonz: your last post implied that we should lynch lurkers. Why didn't you vote Chenhsi then?
Can't bake an omelette without killing a few people.
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raider8169
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Post Post #224 (ISO) » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:17 pm

Post by raider8169 »

I am happy with the replacement however I would like to see a real post before removing my vote.

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