Mini 611 - Troy, Meet Helen (Game Over)

[Macavenger]

I know this is about netlava, but Walnut's post 92 contradicts his being hesitant to vote for someone that he's pulling now

I explained that, just a few posts earlier:

That post is actually what attracted charter and I's attention. We're saying it's a contradiction - there's really no way you could be as certain as you're now claiming you want to be that early in the game. The fact that you hadn't even posted anythign about him before jumping on him to L-2 is pretty much the opposite of someone being careful with their vote.

Other than in recent games I have a 100% success rate at being a mafia target on night one- my ghost will mouth it silently

Has nothing to do with this game.

You missed one of my questions:

I consider you impetuous, overeager to persuade people to follow weak arguments, and over confident in your read of the game.

Why does this get me off your scumlist, but not Netlava? I find that an excellent description of his play.

[farside22]

farside22 has requested replacement. I'm looking for someone now.

I'm really sorry you guys. This game has overloaded me.

[Netlava]

I didn't see the need to say again what I have already said.

Concerning the SK thing, I only brought it up because everyone was assuming that there were 3 mafia. I specifically said that in a 12 player game there is usually 3 mafia or 2 mafia and an SK. I wasn't trying to stir paranoia. I was just saying that there are other possibilities.

You said it was better to play it conservative and assume 4. Why?

But more importantly, why are you avoiding this question so much?

[Lord Gurgi]

Because the town should always play conservative, it's just logic. I'm not avoiding the question.

But more importantly, why haven't you responded to all the suspicion towards you?

[Netlava]

Not convinced by this reason

I have responded to all the suspicion. If there's anything I missed, feel free to point it out.

[Battousai]

Actually Charter, LG, I was defending my first vote not LG. I disagreed with Farside, so I voted her. Then I somewhat answered her question on talking about a SK is not scummy. I told her that I found LG's post not to be scummy.

[Walnut]

I have no problem voting LG, Batt, or Walnut today to make sure one of them gets lynched at deadline.

That reminds me- why are you voting for me Charter? After you posted a list of accusations I answered them. My sense of that was that I had clearly explained myself and shown that your arguments did not hold water. To go back to your response to that (post #274)

@Walnut, regardless of what questions you were answering, your post got a few people off topic for a while. I'm not arguing that what you said was or wasn't justified, just that you did say it, and it did derail the town.

According to you, I answered questions, which may have been justified. What is the point here? Even if you believe the answers "derailed" the town and someone in this process was scummy, would it have been the person who asked the question, not the one who answered it?

You're right about the 137 though, don't know where I got defend from. More like fruitlessly attacks. I assumed no one listened to him, since there were very few posts that talked about BB or what he said. Also noted, how you group Tinsley in there with responding to BB but no one else.

I have explained my stance on BB previously. He needed to ask to be replaced or modify his style greatly, or he was scum. I am not sure how I am responsible for whether other people post about him or not- if I attack him and no one else does it is not deliberately fruitless and therefore scummy, as you seem to be saying here. Why do I group Tinsley in there and no one else? Because Tinsley also responded at that time, and no one else did. Again, I am not getting your point in this accusation. Equally, if I had attacked someone that other people were pursuing, would you have called me scummy for getting on a bandwagon? I believe some people did for my vote on Hadhfang.

Walnut, you really didn't defend yourself against my accusations. You corrected my improper use of words in a few cases, but you didn't try and refute much.

When the improper words were the key to your arguments, that seems significant. I thought I had pointed out conclusively that your accusations were baseless. Please tell me what I have missed.

Plus your latest post is taking a very noncommittal stance on netlava. You even say so yourself. It seems scummy, like all that needs to happen is netlava needs just a little more support, then you'll add your vote.

Nope, needed a deadline My point was that if we focused only on Netlava he would be lynched, and we would miss the opportunity for more Day 1 converstion. Do you feel that you have benefited from the last few pages?

Walnut - You didn't address my question about the Riot/Batt relationship.

Sorry- looking back I see that I pasted both questions in one quote, then only answered the second one. I am unconvinced by the Battousai/CFRiot pairing. Early on I had vague suspicions of Batt around the lurking strategy, but subsequent play has seemed much more town like.

I know this is about netlava, but Walnut's post 92 contradicts his being hesitant to vote for someone that he's pulling now

I explained that, just a few posts earlier:

That post is actually what attracted charter and I's attention. We're saying it's a contradiction - there's really no way you could be as certain as you're now claiming you want to be that early in the game. The fact that you hadn't even posted anythign about him before jumping on him to L-2 is pretty much the opposite of someone being careful with their vote.

I think here you are confusing posting with analysing the game. Scumhunting is not just about asking your own questions and having them answered, it is also reading all of the conversations going on. Whether I had posted about Hadhfang or not before voting for him is irrelevant. I felt, and do feel, pretty confident about Had. Only time will prove whether my confidence was well founded or not.

Other than in recent games I have a 100% success rate at being a mafia target on night one- my ghost will mouth it silently

Has nothing to do with this game.

It certainly does! It makes me very conscious that if I don't say something on Day 1 I may not have the chance to say it on Day 2.

You missed one of my questions:

I consider you impetuous, overeager to persuade people to follow weak arguments, and over confident in your read of the game.

Why does this get me off your scumlist, but not Netlava? I find that an excellent description of his play.

Sorry, missing two questions in one night is not good Looking back, I was getting a bit irritated,- my apologies for that. A more accurate way of saying that would be to include a "sometimes" with the description for Macavenger. Netlava is a different kettle of fish- I think it is his lack of confidence in his read of the game that leads to him rapidly changing his accusations and votes from one player to another. This is what has had me confused on whether he was scum or not, but on balance I am increasingly confident that he is.

[charter]

I have no problem voting LG, Batt, or Walnut today to make sure one of them gets lynched at deadline.

That reminds me- why are you voting for me Charter? After you posted a list of accusations I answered them. My sense of that was that I had clearly explained myself and shown that your arguments did not hold water. To go back to your response to that (post #274)

Voting for you because you have yet to do any scumhunting. At first you posted a whole lot of nothing, and now that you've got some votes, all you're doing is defending yourself. Still no scumhunting.

@Walnut, regardless of what questions you were answering, your post got a few people off topic for a while. I'm not arguing that what you said was or wasn't justified, just that you did say it, and it did derail the town.

According to you, I answered questions, which may have been justified. What is the point here? Even if you believe the answers "derailed" the town and someone in this process was scummy, would it have been the person who asked the question, not the one who answered it?

I think both actions were scummy. I don't point out everything I find scummy.

You're right about the 137 though, don't know where I got defend from. More like fruitlessly attacks. I assumed no one listened to him, since there were very few posts that talked about BB or what he said. Also noted, how you group Tinsley in there with responding to BB but no one else.

I have explained my stance on BB previously. He needed to ask to be replaced or modify his style greatly, or he was scum. I am not sure how I am responsible for whether other people post about him or not- if I attack him and no one else does it is not deliberately fruitless and therefore scummy, as you seem to be saying here.

You've decided from two posts that BB is scum? Pretty bold statement there. Personally, I think his actions were brilliant (assuming he was town) because his claim would have easily drew mafia attention.

Why do I group Tinsley in there and no one else? Because Tinsley also responded at that time, and no one else did. Again, I am not getting your point in this accusation. Equally, if I had attacked someone that other people were pursuing, would you have called me scummy for getting on a bandwagon? I believe some people did for my vote on Hadhfang.

You give a one liner for voting Had, based on your gut and put him at L-2. It was your reason and your manner of jumping on Had's bandwagon that drew suspicion towards you.

Walnut, you really didn't defend yourself against my accusations. You corrected my improper use of words in a few cases, but you didn't try and refute much.

When the improper words were the key to your arguments, that seems significant. I thought I had pointed out conclusively that your accusations were baseless. Please tell me what I have missed.

The main reason for suspecting you, not scumhunting.

Plus your latest post is taking a very noncommittal stance on netlava. You even say so yourself. It seems scummy, like all that needs to happen is netlava needs just a little more support, then you'll add your vote.

Nope, needed a deadline My point was that if we focused only on Netlava he would be lynched, and we would miss the opportunity for more Day 1 converstion. Do you feel that you have benefited from the last few pages?

Greatly.

I know this is about netlava, but Walnut's post 92 contradicts his being hesitant to vote for someone that he's pulling now

I explained that, just a few posts earlier:

That post is actually what attracted charter and I's attention. We're saying it's a contradiction - there's really no way you could be as certain as you're now claiming you want to be that early in the game. The fact that you hadn't even posted anythign about him before jumping on him to L-2 is pretty much the opposite of someone being careful with their vote.

I think here you are confusing posting with analysing the game. Scumhunting is not just about asking your own questions and having them answered, it is also reading all of the conversations going on. Whether I had posted about Hadhfang or not before voting for him is irrelevant. I felt, and do feel, pretty confident about Had. Only time will prove whether my confidence was well founded or not.

You understand that no one else has any way of knowing what you think unless you post it. If that's the reason we're suspecting you, you might want to post more thoughts.

Other than in recent games I have a 100% success rate at being a mafia target on night one- my ghost will mouth it silently

Has nothing to do with this game.

It certainly does! It makes me very conscious that if I don't say something on Day 1 I may not have the chance to say it on Day 2.

Other games have nothing to do with this one.

[ShadowGirl]

Haven't forgotten about this game.

My top three list [in no particular order as of yet]
o. Battousai
o. Walnut
o. LG

I'm keeping my eye on:

*Had : What with the cop claim and all.

[Mizzy]

Hadhfang has also requested replacement. Looking for 2 replacements now.

[Mizzy]

Farkshinsoup replaces farside22 effective immediately.

[Farkshinsoup]

Hi all. Please give me some time to do a proper reread. I'll try to post by this time tomorrow.

[charter]

Hey Fark!

[charter]

Haven't forgotten about this game.

My top three list [in no particular order as of yet]
o. Battousai
o. Walnut
o. LG

I'm keeping my eye on:

*Had : What with the cop claim and all.

Have you forgotten about your vote? You're currently voting me, but do you no longer find me suspicious?

I ask because the deadline is fast approaching.

[ShadowGirl]

Haven't forgotten about this game.

My top three list [in no particular order as of yet]
o. Battousai
o. Walnut
o. LG

I'm keeping my eye on:

*Had : What with the cop claim and all.

Have you forgotten about your vote? You're currently voting me, but do you no longer find me suspicious?

I ask because the deadline is fast approaching.

My vote? -scrolls up the page- Oh. I thought I took it off.

Unvote.

[charter]

What I was getting at is do you find anyone suspicious enough to vote for them?

[Battousai]

You're right about the 137 though, don't know where I got defend from. More like fruitlessly attacks. I assumed no one listened to him, since there were very few posts that talked about BB or what he said. Also noted, how you group Tinsley in there with responding to BB but no one else.

I have explained my stance on BB previously. He needed to ask to be replaced or modify his style greatly, or he was scum. I am not sure how I am responsible for whether other people post about him or not- if I attack him and no one else does it is not deliberately fruitless and therefore scummy, as you seem to be saying here.

You've decided from two posts that BB is scum? Pretty bold statement there. Personally, I think his actions were brilliant (assuming he was town) because his claim would have easily drew mafia attention.

Wait, what? Two things wrong with your statement here Charter.

1) You seem to ignore the fact Walnut stated "[BB] needed to ask to be replaced or modify his style greatly..." It seems you are trying to make Walnut look scummy instead of finding scummy things Walnut has done.

2) The play was not brilliant. What if an investigative role targeted BB first. Hell, that's what I would have done if I had an investigative role. Then we would be done both the cop, and BB (the mafia got to him after the cop). Your using hindsight with BB/camn's UNCONFIRMED role.

[ShadowGirl]

What I was getting at is do you find anyone suspicious enough to vote for them?

I'm getting to that, patience.

-mini reread-

[charter]

You're right about the 137 though, don't know where I got defend from. More like fruitlessly attacks. I assumed no one listened to him, since there were very few posts that talked about BB or what he said. Also noted, how you group Tinsley in there with responding to BB but no one else.

I have explained my stance on BB previously. He needed to ask to be replaced or modify his style greatly, or he was scum. I am not sure how I am responsible for whether other people post about him or not- if I attack him and no one else does it is not deliberately fruitless and therefore scummy, as you seem to be saying here.

You've decided from two posts that BB is scum? Pretty bold statement there. Personally, I think his actions were brilliant (assuming he was town) because his claim would have easily drew mafia attention.

Wait, what? Two things wrong with your statement here Charter.

1) You seem to ignore the fact Walnut stated "[BB] needed to ask to be replaced or modify his style greatly..." It seems you are trying to make Walnut look scummy instead of finding scummy things Walnut has done.

I don't agree with this. First, regardless of his disclaimer, he still made the statement "you are scum" after BB had made two posts which I feel he shouldn't be able to make. Second, I'm not making him look scummy in that post, you're saying that for me. I first questioned his assertation, then said that was a bold statement considering BB made two posts.
Way to go on defending Walnut...

2) The play was not brilliant. What if an investigative role targeted BB first. Hell, that's what I would have done if I had an investigative role. Then we would be done both the cop, and BB (the mafia got to him after the cop). Your using hindsight with BB/camn's UNCONFIRMED role.

Here we go again. More "What ifs?". The "What ifs" do nothing to help find scum. Regardless of how good or bad it's been done and there's nothing we can do about it. I don't know why you bring this up, all that will happen is an argument gets stirred up and we waste the time before the deadline.

[ShadowGirl]

Batt:
- Lurking as a strategy which he acquired from scum

Netlava: Has basically tunnel vision of CF Riot. Outed the doc (he thought it was the doc at the time). Goes after LG for somewhat defending Netlava (gave an excuse for Netlava's actions), and completely ignores the post by CF Riot, not even touching the discrepencies and contradictions in the post.

BB: Doesn't give this game much effort (reasonable as asked to be replaced), claims a great role out of the blue, and tells people who he feels is scummy, but doesn't give much of a reason why.

Tinsley: This is more gut than anything. He defends CF Riot, saying he is most likely town because he wrote a big post. Scum writes big posts too.

Those three are the main people who

IGMEOY

UNVOTE

, forgot to do that earlier.

I can understand the case against Netlava, but I don't see how the two other have earned spots on them.

I don't get you Mac. You say you see a connection between me and Riot right? You also say you see Netlava as scummy (you at one time at least, had a vote on him). Now there is a possibility that ALL 3 of us is scum, but wouldn't it be stupid for me and Riot to try and get Netlava lynched, as to me it's not worth the risk to lose a scum partner day 1. So what I conclude from this is that the feeling of a pairing that you see between me and Riot is STRONGER than the feeling of scumminess coming from Netlava, no?

Also, I'm a little surprised that people think me and Riot could be paired, as I don't see it. I would see a much stronger pair between me and LG instead (I defended his SK allegations early, and LG sees some of my moves concerning Netlava as protown.

Netlava: Could you give me the post where Riot says that we shouldn't lynch BB and the post where he includes a possible bb/walnut scumpair?

It might just be me, but I don't like how you're talking about who you're more likely to be partnered with.

And defending LG doesn't bode well with me, either.

Vote Battousai.

[Battousai]

"Way to go on defending Walnut..." Thank you

What if I said Had is scum or he is the cop? I still said Had is scum!

[Farkshinsoup]

Still in the middle of my reread. Can someone post a link to the "other game" that keeps being referenced in the early pages? Not sure if I will read it, but I'd like to give it a quick look so I know what everyone is talking about.

[charter]

Still in the middle of my reread. Can someone post a link to the "other game" that keeps being referenced in the early pages? Not sure if I will read it, but I'd like to give it a quick look so I know what everyone is talking about.

viewtopic.php?t=8599

Long story short, Me Had and acidmix were scum. Riot (and a bunch of others) were positive I was scum. I was lying through my teeth. Mac and Netlava were ready to slit each others throats. Acidmix then ruined the game. We didn't make it out of day one.

[Farkshinsoup]

Thanks. Like I said, not sure I want to muddy the waters by even reading that, but it might help clear up a few things from the early part of this game, if necessary.

[Battousai]

Shadow Girl: That was a while ago, and that I had my eye on them.

What I found suspicious of BB at the time was that he basically softclaims and then seemed to randomly pick two people to be most likely scum. Tinsley, well I found that he was willing to write of Riot as protown because he wrote a big post just wrong. That was why I only had a IGMEOY on him along with the others at the time.

I brought up that I don't see how me and Riot are likely scum partners. I find it a little wierd that someone would think that when a stronger case of defensiveness was between myself and LG.