Mini 626 - Crew vs. Pigs - GAME OVER!!

[Kison]

Jesus Christ Ennui, you do realize this not only ruins the game for your partner, but also for Cicero, who spent the time putting it together on top of

months

waiting in the moderating queue, right?

[Ennui2778]

A what?

[Matin]

Dude, he basically just claimed scum. Of course he gets lynched today.

Yeah, I missed that part at the bottom until I saw the "you'll have to" post and it didn't make sense..

What is a sophia?

[raider8169]

Ok, everyone knows he is now scum. I guess all that remains is whether or not this will count as the lynch. He did say someone on the bandwagon is also scum.

[Matin]

Dude, he basically just claimed scum. Of course he gets lynched today.

Also, the llama plan I referenced was to try and get a twofer...obv Ennui dies either way..

[Goatrevolt]

Dude, he basically just claimed scum. Of course he gets lynched today.

Also, the llama plan I referenced was to try and get a twofer...obv Ennui dies either way..

Ah, I gotcha.

Jesus Christ Ennui, you do realize this not only ruins the game for your partner, but also for Cicero, who spent the time putting it together on top of months waiting in the moderating queue, right?

QFT. I'm happy for dead scum, but it does cheapen the game somewhat.

[LlamaFluff]

Jesus Christ Ennui, you do realize this not only ruins the game for your partner, but also for Cicero, who spent the time putting it together on top of months waiting in the moderating queue, right?

QFT. I'm happy for dead scum, but it does cheapen the game somewhat.

Doubly QFT, thats not right to do. Saying you caught me is one thing, but outing your partners role is wrong on so many levels.

Given that this is obvious modkill, and hopefully at least temp-ban, I still am not against trying to see if we can lynch FL and get the modkill D1

[Goatrevolt]

Given that this is obvious modkill, and hopefully at least temp-ban, I still am not against trying to see if we can lynch FL and get the modkill D1

If he's telling the truth about the partner being on the wagon, then I'm thinking it's CubsFan.

[LlamaFluff]

Given that this is obvious modkill, and hopefully at least temp-ban, I still am not against trying to see if we can lynch FL and get the modkill D1

If he's telling the truth about the partner being on the wagon, then I'm thinking it's CubsFan.

FL second guessed the wagon forever so works better to me. Ennui being scum makes me even more sure of this. Ennui was obviously scum power so other scum would be more hesitant to wagon him off. Not to outguess the mod or other players, but firstly this can be WIFOM, more importantly though, especially when Ennui claimed town power, that would be more then enough to drive off scum. Like FL.

CF at least has this wierd obsession with wanting all power roles dead, this is shown him him calling for DD and CF lynches.

[forbiddanlight]

Everything else is in post 360, holds even more true given Ennui is obv-scum. But as I was writing this Ennui made a interesting claim. I will hold my vote until everyone gets a chance to say something about it though. I still think we should lynch FL and let Ennui be modkilled though

You don't want to do that. But, we'll move on from this assertation with actual logic.

Yes, lets have the cop check the power role [/sarcasam]

Why not? I eventually admit that the cop directing isn't that smart, but not because DD claimed a power role. It's mostly because it makes no sense if he's scum claiming and doesn't have investigation immunity.

Cop should not be investigating if you think that it is a waste or just because you don’t know how to play this situation. Relying on a cop in any situation is stupid too, telling the cop what to do is even worse, even “suggesting” as you seem to think you are.

Stupid doesn't necessarily mean scummy. But, once again, I eventually realize this is a bad course of action. I honestly was only suggesting. If I wanted to direct, I'd say "Cop, do this, bitch".

No no no no no. A thousand times no. This is one of the worst ideas we can be taking, if memory serves raider rivaled it at one point but this is truly an awful path to even be thinking as town.
First off, you say we shouldn’t lynch DD today, that is good logic. Then you open up with the idea to policy lynch him later in the game because he is a liability since he might be scum. You either should believe him now and never want to lynch him based on the claim, or, you don’t believe him now and want him lynched D1 based on the claim. There is no way that you should ever come up with the idea of, lynch him later to be safe. Lynch him if you think he is scum, let him live if you think he is town. I am surprised you never got more votes for this one, especially considering I know some of the players in this game. Funny that it was Raider who shut the argument down.

Another stupid mistake. So I've played stupidly. Doesn't mean I'm scum. I think I retract that position later too, as well. Policy lynches in the end are stupid, and it took me awhile to realize that. Now, however, I take issue with something you say here. If you believe him at one point, D1, and decide not to lynch him, that does NOT mean that future situations allow him to live indefinitely.

Well this is a very quick turn around from the fact that you want to policy lynch DD later in the game. You now want to follow the plan that Matin puts up (which probably is the best plan). At the end though, you say the claim is a null tell, and you believe it. This does not line up with the fact that you wanted to lynch DD late in the game. A null tell is not something you look to lynch for, you don’t want to lynch a role you believe, so why did you want to lynch DD a little bit ago?

Well, because Matin had a good plan that made a lot more fucking sense than mine. Of COURSE I'm going to switch ideas. As for the null tell thing, I was being paranoid. I don't like confusing things making it to late game. I had the same idea in another game that town won in, on DDRFreak. However, I also learned from that paranoia isn't always smart concerning late game policy lynches. Either way, people have the right to change their mind.

Flippity floppity you go again. This time regarding the previous nono of discussing the cop investigation. You want him investigated because you don’t trust yourself or the town enough to catch DD if he is scum, however given how discussion is going, cop investigation would mean nothing unless a GF flips. Now, you change in the same quote to not wanting the investigation, because of odds and the fact that you now trust the ability to catch scum. Choose a side.

I did. Cop shouldn't investigate, but it's cop's choice, given we have one. I was working out my thoughts in that post. I sometimes do that. I post what I think...got a problem with me not censoring my thought processes?

Lots of stuff here. You tell chenshi how to defend, then you move on to saying you want to defend against the attacks for him, how noble of you. Now you move onto the fact that no defense means the wagon is more legitimate, and looks like you are threatening a vote on him if there is no response in the near future. But then its wrapped up with defense, saying that the reasons for voting is weak. Great fence sit here, allows you to vote or defend be choosing the correct part to quote.

Well, I don't like fast bandwagons. Just a carryover from other games. And yes, I did threaten a vote on him. I also misremembered my specific criteria. I like the criteria I thought I put better (pending reread). A time based vote is another stupid idea I had. I think you should be happy I rectified my bad play before executing it.

Now you are directing the vig to kill DD. I still think directing any role is scummy as it allows scum manipulation during discussion.

Vig directing is arguable as scum or town tell. DD's claim should be dealt with in a way that makes sense. (changing my view on this after I'm done defending). Given what he's told us at that time, he can't be vigged. So, telling the vig to shoot him would make sense to confirm the claim (at that time).

Now you take the chenshi scum path that was previously mentioned available. You call his roll over and die thing though AtE and therefore he is scum, I call it lazy. Also you don’t vote him, just give intention to vote, there was no real reason to put him on a personal deadline. You never went through with this either for some reason. I saw no chenshi defense, just forbiddan deciding to do something else.

Yeah, well, I was compelled by the cases, and in the end actually didn't mean to use the deadline at all. I wanted to reread, not do that. Either way, it's down there to haunt me, so whatever. I think I already defended that, actually...

More vig directing. I still am concerned though he is just scum proof given the flavor of this game. Connections in high places doesn’t sound like something that stops a vig or SK. If DD gets NKed by the vig, at least one of these people pushing for him to get vigged is scum looking for a way to NK him.

Well, he seems confident he can't be killed by vig. I feel fine asking for someone to test that. I have a better idea now...but that's at the end of this post. You might be right in the end. I don't think you are.

But Raider is suspect of yours. So was that distancing or is Raider town?

It's probably distancing. Or raider might be town. raider was only slight scum, if you recall. Also, just because someone has scummy actions, if someone is scummier related to the one with scummy actions, that doesn't mean it isn't evidence. Can you HONESTLY read Ting's posts and think he wasn't purposely posting that stupid argument to look like he was contributing?

But you didn’t vote him when you gave him a deadline, and you didn’t vote him when your deadline was reached. You aren’t even voting him when you type this. You instead are throwing away a vote on someone who you aren’t getting any support for, or even seem like you want support for.

I want support for it, but I presented my case. If people aren't going to follow it, fine. Especially given the other interesting cases going. There's no need to distract from scum lynches. My gut didn't like Ennui or the wagon. Well, my gut was right, and goat articulated what triggered my gut. I'll probably gun for Ting much harder tomorrow. That is, if we get a lynch today. Cause, ya see...

If you read Ennui's post, it's heavily implying DD is his scum buddy. This is WIFOMable as hell, but you must admit, DD has acted scummy most of the game. And given Ennui's full claim, and apparent frustration, I'm all for a DD lynch now. A vig kill would be wasted on him, don'tcha think?

So,

Unvote Ennui, Vote DarkDude

I figure Ennui will be MK'd for that last stunt.

[forbiddanlight]

FL second guessed the wagon forever so works better to me. Ennui being scum makes me even more sure of this. Ennui was obviously scum power so other scum would be more hesitant to wagon him off. Not to outguess the mod or other players, but firstly this can be WIFOM, more importantly though, especially when Ennui claimed town power, that would be more then enough to drive off scum. Like FL.

Tunnel vision. Don't get caught up in me or we'll have more problems.

What is a sophia?

In spies 5, a really extensive game of mafia, I was a player named Sophia. And I was the first spy caught. So, before the votes came in, I claimed spy, outed a role (that I actually didn't know was my spy buddy's...long story, but it was the game set up), and created a WIFOM situation with my exit. It would have worked better if I hadn't precisely shot my unknown friends in the foot. But either way, Ennui did something rather similar, except in a more frustrated rather than strategic way.

[raider8169]

So,

Unvote Ennui, Vote DarkDude

I dont like this at all. We know Ennui is scum so you remove your vote? If the mod kills Ennui that is one thing but we do not know what will happen and the only thing currently in our control is to lynch a 100% confirmed scum.

[LlamaFluff]

If you read Ennui's post, it's heavily implying DD is his scum buddy. This is WIFOMable as hell, but you must admit, DD has acted scummy most of the game. And given Ennui's full claim, and apparent frustration, I'm all for a DD lynch now. A vig kill would be wasted on him, don'tcha think?

So,

Unvote Ennui, Vote DarkDude

I figure Ennui will be MK'd for that last stunt.

Whaaaaat? First of all, it sure is brave of you to believe that Ennui really had been wagoned by his scum buddy. I am not going to automatically throw out everyone else.

I dont like the connection to DD either, Ennui was questioning him about his role remember? I think scum would know eachothers roles a bit better. What I gather is that Ennui knew that his role was similar to DD when he claimed, and was trying to make sense of it. I dont see this pairing, and now that you are trying to vote the powerrole, wow.

@Raider - Ennui will be modkilled as soon as the mod checks in. We just dont know if it will still be day or will go to night.

[forbiddanlight]

I dont like this at all. We know Ennui is scum so you remove your vote? If the mod kills Ennui that is one thing but we do not know what will happen and the only thing currently in our control is to lynch a 100% confirmed scum.

DUDE! ENNUI JUST QUOTED HIS WHOLE FUCKING ROLE PM! If cicero DOESN'T modkill him after that, I'm tempted to be replaced, since the rules aren't being enforced like they should. I want to see punishment for that one. Anyway, if he isn't modkilled, of course I'll be on the ennui lynch. It's just that, there's no reason not to get started on our next suspects since Ennui appears to be a dead man walking.

[Goatrevolt]

but you must admit, DD has acted scummy most of the game.

Examples?

[forbiddanlight]

I dont like the connection to DD either, Ennui was questioning him about his role remember? I think scum would know eachothers roles a bit better. What I gather is that Ennui knew that his role was similar to DD when he claimed, and was trying to make sense of it. I dont see this pairing, and now that you are trying to vote the powerrole, wow.

Yeah, because scum in control of their game never distance from each other. Ever. The two shot comment is what seals it for me. It's possible Ennui is WIFOMing us. So fucking what? Have you even LOOKED at DD's behavior? Or were you too focused on trying to get me killed because you might have picked up on something? Post raider's case now. And then I want you to reread DarkDude, and tell me to my FACE I don't have a point.

[Matin]

ahh..head hurts..must drink less on saturday nights..

Lol if the DD and Ennui team I proposed earlier ended up being true...

I go back to the post I made earlier where DD was defending Ennui and vice versa, and I wonder..

As far as the case on FL..lots of good stuff, but I think it's different to read these things after the fact as opposed to react to them in real time. When DD claimed a kind of non normal role, I think a lot of people's opinions on it evolved over 30 posts or so..

But..

I didn't like this post:

Oh, and the fact my vote is back on Ennui, is it not

? I didn't like the claim but jumped off because it was believeable. In the light goat gave it, it's believeable as scum.

Ennui was dead man walking, so I don't know that re voting him makes you appear more town..

[Matin]

I dont like this at all. We know Ennui is scum so you remove your vote? If the mod kills Ennui that is one thing but we do not know what will happen and the only thing currently in our control is to lynch a 100% confirmed scum.

Ennui is dead either way..

Why are you so worried about not lynching him now?

[forbiddanlight]

Ennui was dead man walking, so I don't know that re voting him makes you appear more town..

Well if he wasn't then, he is now. And maybe it doesn't. To be honest, I believed he was scum after seeing Goat's case on the claim, since I already didn't like it. Usually the knee jerk reaction to a claim is to unvote. Maybe I shouldn't use that to defend myself, but it's true.

Examples?

Prepare for a tl;dr raw summary of DD's actions:

Darkdude: Claims bulletproof townie. "I am Guido Gnocchi and I have family connections with the top officials in the police department so I cannot be arrested by the rats". However, thinks this means we have more powerful scum, or alternate kills for scum. Wanted to breadcrumb to lure scum into NKing him, but said rule 10 stopped him, but it doesn't, he just misunderstood crumbing. He says that it's probably for the better since crumbs tend to be misinterpreted/ignored. Answers Kison saying he thinks his power stays the same unless some other role affects it. Didn't consider cop investigations, and thinks scum might try to kill him anyway. Just says the Godfather possibility is a what if. Says raider would be suspicious if darkdude himself were scum, but his posts otherwise aren't suspicious assuming dark is town. Asks which post Ghyrt was referring to in the raider case. Agrees it was out of place, but the others were fine. Counters raider saying that people would say it eventually on their own. Says if there was a lynch case, obviously the majority of players wouldn't believe him. Says the claim effects the odds of townies screwing up by making them lower. Also claims he was inspired by another thread with a WIFOM like that, and hopes the scum target him. Suspects scum power roles, says the situation he linked was a lot different, but the WIFOM factor was there. Says that reactions to his claim were good because they give an idea of player behavior. Disagrees that Kison is looking bad for fence sitting because he asked for more info. However, Kison's activity was low and DD awaits his reaction. Agrees that the claim at L-2/1 would be bad which is why he claimed now. Lists reasons why it's protown, relating to scum hunting, player reactions, WIFOM, etc. Feels that bulletproof claim close to lynch is a bad idea. Says his role says he can't be eliminated by NKs of any type. Counters ting saying that the WIFOM reactions weren't what he meant, he meant overall reactions. Admits for the most part his claim helps himself. Is fine with camps, figures scum wouldn't buddy up. Goes from the top against Ting, saying that he's being inconsistent liking discussion but not discussion from the claim. Says Ting is claiming raider said something that raider did not. Says he claimed to avoid being lynched. Wants to hear more from chenhsi. Points out the chenhsi is being hypocritical calling out lurkers. Denies having a plan other than playing aggressively. Doesn't want a mass claim. Feels chenhsi is fitting his usual meta. Interested in the Kison/forbiddanlight thing. Explains the discrepancy by saying the role claim was a paraphrase with the rats, and game wise he can't be NKd. Asks cubs what to do about his claim. Suspects raider for using his claim to probe set up and doing this for his own interests. Likes raider's rolefish for a counter bulletproof role. Votes cubs for inactivity, hasn't seen any real scum, just forbiddan shifting position and raider's early game. "If I had only left it at "I cannot be arrested by rats", then it would be confusing" relating to the discrepancy. Points out where he outlined the mechanic in claim post. Discourages set up guessing, votes chenhsi thinking the lurking is more than harmless. Requests chenhsi replacement. Reiterates the can't be arrested issue, and is displeased to see two lurkers. Asks about AtE. Says that if chen is town, then we can look at that pushers tomorrow. Also only sees chen as an option compared to no lynch. Says he doesn't find no lynch an option. Points out the lurker strat isn't valid in cicero's rules. Says cub should ask questions rather than make others do the work for him. Says no one wants chen dead immediately, just want to vote. Says he wasn't rushing, just that he was pressure voting.

I think if you read that, you'll see he hasn't precisely played the most pro town game. First, self serving claim. Second, discrepancy between claim and mechanics. Third, a bit of dancing on the no lynch issue. Finally, there is that lovely "chen is fitting his meta" thing, then a vote for chen later. There's probably more, but those stood out to me.

[forbiddanlight]

Bear in mind this was to the page of my analysis.I think that was page 8. Actions since then aren't recorded yet.

[raider8169]

I dont like this at all. We know Ennui is scum so you remove your vote? If the mod kills Ennui that is one thing but we do not know what will happen and the only thing currently in our control is to lynch a 100% confirmed scum.

DUDE! ENNUI JUST QUOTED HIS WHOLE FUCKING ROLE PM! If cicero DOESN'T modkill him after that, I'm tempted to be replaced, since the rules aren't being enforced like they should. I want to see punishment for that one. Anyway, if he isn't modkilled, of course I'll be on the ennui lynch. It's just that, there's no reason not to get started on our next suspects since Ennui appears to be a dead man walking.

I know you guys say he will be mod killed but I dont like to think that will happen. For someone to get mod killed it just sucks for the mod. I would rather make this thing go as the mod wanted it to and lets lynch him not only for being scum but for ruining all the hard work that went it to making this game.

By no means does that mean that we shouldnt be looking out for his partner.

[Matin]

fwiw..

Ennui first speaks of claiming in post 278, which is 16 posts (and ennuie's first) after DD said he put him at L-2 in post 262...

Still not buying DD

[forbiddanlight]

I know you guys say he will be mod killed but I dont like to think that will happen. For someone to get mod killed it just sucks for the mod. I would rather make this thing go as the mod wanted it to and lets lynch him not only for being scum but for ruining all the hard work that went it to making this game.

By no means does that mean that we shouldnt be looking out for his partner.

Honestly, the best move for the mod to maintain balance is to have the modkill put us into night. He may or may not do that. If he doesn't, I want to see if we can use anything Ennui said. It isn't fair, but it's just a game, and the scum just lost part of it. cicero's decision to put them into multiple groups does mean that the game isn't entirely shattered.

[forbiddanlight]

fwiw..

Ennui first speaks of claiming in post 278, which is 16 posts (and ennuie's first) after DD said he put him at L-2 in post 262...

Still not buying DD

Bussing? seems Ennui thinks he got bussed.

[forbiddanlight]

ARGH! You all made me bored again! I was having fun defending .