Mini 624 - Game Over!

[maxwellhouse]

sorry, i have limited internet as i am on vacation. did i forget to mention that here? i said that in a few other of my games. must have skipped this one.

I propose kenfucius and maxwellhouse show up. It would be nice if one of you could counterclaim, kthx.

and, just wondering. there could be more than one cop per game correct? so even a counterclaim would mean nothing.

as for everything going on, chenhsi, oh my god. seriously. why do you even join games if you don't do anything? honestly. even if you suck at it, SAY SOMETHING. at least then you will learn to play the game. all you're saying is "i have nothing to say." that doesn't help at all. say something scummy even. that could get some information out of people.

i don't really like DWS's latest posts as it seems to be echoing other people's opinions to a tee lol. but i don't really find it scummy, just repetitive/someone who doesn't know what to say.

[Litral]

I give you two long posts. The first one on imaginality's arguments and the second one on who I think should be lynched.

Reading Litral's posts, the following things stood out to me:

36. Voted Tom, no reason given
38. After Stranger Coug voted him (post 37), gave a reason for his vote:

Because Tom suggested that we kill Godot, and yet he did not put on a vote himself, or give reasons.

If Litral thinks not giving a reason for a vote is suspicious, why didn't he give a reason for his vote? Seems more likely he thought of this as a justification for his vote after the fact.

Nope. I thought it was fairly obvious why I was voting Tom; I did so right after the post where he pushed us to kill Godot. Of course, lacking a sense of humour, I did not understand that he was joking; if you imagine that he was not, it was more than sufficiently scummy to deserve a vote.

There is no reason for scum to tend to vote without giving a reason.

121. votes Wumbo (back up to L-2) because:

anyone vanilla townie who has claimed is completely useless to the town, and should be lynched, unless there is a far better candidate.

Aside from whether this is a good argument, I think it's pretty interesting that he made absolutely no comment on the Dark wingstalker L-1 vote shenanigans, which was breaking news at the time he posted. Instead he tried to keep the Wumbo wagon alive with his vote.

My post showed clearly that at that point I had only barely read the posts leading up to it, so my vote was based off only a simple principle in my mind; I didn't actually remember DWS being at L-1 by the time I voted.

137. Here Litral unvotes Wumbo and votes chenhsi, saying:

I get town vibes out of Wumbo's final defenses after careful reading, which is why I don't feel like lynching him any more.

Yet Litral was happy to vote Wumbo in post 121, and Wumbo hadn't posted since then. It seems more likely to me that Litral realised the Wumbo wagon had run out of steam, so he claimed to have changed your views after a careful reread of his posts. (And if he

is

telling the truth, then shouldn't he have read Wumbo's posts carefully

before

voting him to L-2?)

Again, my post showed that at that time I had not been attentive, and I did promise to read the whole thing later. That I did, and that's the unvote post. I think that the fact that I did not have time

at that particular moment

must be stressed; it explains the situation surrounding those two posts in a logical way.

183. Litral drops in to say:

Although I'm attentive, I'm not going to bother with this discussion.

I find this pretty interesting because it heightens my suspicion that

both

Dark wingstalker

and

Litral may be scum together. In post 121 Litral ignored the attacks on DWS's vote, in post 137 he only questioned him slightly ("Why the tunnel vision?"), and now he stays clear of the fray completely. I think this makes a lot of sense if DWS is Litral's scum buddy and Litral wants to avoid facing the dilemma of either obviously defending DWS (which could put him under suspicion if DWS is outed as scum later), or adding to the attack him (which at that point could have led to a DWS lynch).

Since you did not explain why my arguments saying that DWS was not scum to me are bad, I cannot argue with this.

I'll also say I'm very wary of him latching onto the chenhsi bandwagon the way he did, but before that I didn't think he was scum.

203. Defends DWS's mistakes as unintentional:

while DWS did seem to misinterpret and misspeak at times, those misinterpretations are not meant to be malicious or anti-town, and to me, not intentional.

And? You mean to say he made those mistakes on purpose. I see no scum-benefit in that.

206, 209, 212, 216. Defends his argument that lynching lurkers is a good strategy. Worth noting though, in 216 Litral says:

You're saying my strategy is to lynch every lurker. First of all, it's pretty sad if there are enough lurkers to lynch all the way to endgame, and second of all, I'm saying that we should lynch (or at least vote) chenhsi, who while suspicious (suggesting that there is nothing at all to talk about and nothing questionable at all), has the added benefit for lynching of being a lurker.

But he used the same argument to push for a lynch on Wumbo, so it does seem that the lurkiness is the reason for Litral targeting them, not an 'added benefit'.

That's not my argument for voting Wumbo.

246. Not sure why but this post also seems slightly off, maybe because of its WIFOMish flavour:

On the other hand: if you're going to claim, claim doc. Then the scum can kill you if we don't.

Not any more they will.

Umm... it makes sense. I'm not happy with Cass bringing up the point out loud, thus denying chenhsi that strategy if he had it.

[Hypatia]

VOTE COUNT:

Dark wingstalker

Cass

Litral

imaginality

chenhsi

Dark wingstalker

With 12 alive, it is 7 to lynch. Deadline hits July 26 but will be extended a few days if Kenfucius winds up being replaced (which may happen as he hasn't posted since July 9.)

Kenfucius has been prodded.

[Cass]

@Litral: What strategy? The strategy to make himself a guaranteed nightkill? And do you honestly think Chenhsi has a strategy?

(In fact, I think my post actually made claiming doc slightly safer for him, not that it matters in any way... Would have given him the excuse that I made him do it, nice little wifom for the scum to chew on.)

[Dark wingstalker]

Mod, I dont have a vote on Chenshi currently?

[Hypatia]

Mod, I dont have a vote on Chenshi currently?

If you are talking about #258 on Page 11, your unvote was not bolded so I didn't see it the first time, and it does not count.

[Dark wingstalker]

well okay.

Unvote

[Litral]

whoops, my quote just voted myself.

Unvote

Also, the case on litral?? I dont think it really stands up, but i did attack him somewhat during my bandwagon. While i was being attacked, litral brought wumbo to l-2. I'll fig up the post: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 92#1149292

I dont have a great deal else to say on the matter, He's coming off as scummy, but as i've since been proven to be totally new at this sort of thing, I'm not trusting my gut at the moment.

Now you're just commenting on the side of every scumhunting process that's taking place. Make up your mind, what do you think of me?

@Litral: What strategy? The strategy to make himself a guaranteed nightkill? And do you honestly think Chenhsi has a strategy?

That strategy. I don't know if he had it or not, but your vote nullified the entire possibility of him using it.

After re-reading, I'm very tempted to vote for kenfucius, but it'd be like kicking someone when they're down. Let's review my suspicions then.

List of Suspicions:
Imaginality - Not considering it right now, as lynching someone who's contributing so much on Day 1 is bad.
StrangerCoug - Bit of a tendency to latch onto bandwagons. Brought up a new case against nhat, which was quickly disregarded. Looks fine to me. Same as imaginality, not considering voting him right now.
Geraintm - clean and good. I like post 80, and I recall some further goodposting from him.
Cass - I still don't like the "claim doc" comment on his part, not that it did a lot of damage, but the brain that would motivate such a comment seemed to be that of scum.
Godot - I don't like post 33, saying that he wanted to get serious. Post 55, he says we'd get clues, but never mentioned those clues. Quite suspicious of his uncomfortable uncertainty between chenhsi and Wumbo.
Kenfucius - Too much theory in the first two posts, and not enough suspicions. Lurking thereafter.
Wumbo - Stop being silly. >.<
nhat- Began with a strange FOS in post 82, which I attacked earlier, and backtracked at 84. Aggressive player.
DWS - Too much leering on the side and not enough creative contribution. I'll be honest why I still think he's town. Because I felt that his comments about not being careful and needing to play better were genuine. I don't like telling other people of my towntells, but I'd get loads of pressure if I don't explain. I'm very eager to see him contribute better - or at least to flip town so I don't get mislynched...
chenhsi - k.
Max - Very conflicted views. Seems that he doesn't like lurkers - thus voting chenhsi - and yet suggests lurking is not scummy. And he's sticking a lot to DWS, but I don't see a vote from him on DWS...

vote: Godot

, hoping to see answers to those questions:

I'm willing to accept that it was a joke vote, but it could very well have given us a few clues.

Those clues being?

Well, that's just for you to find out now isn't it.

Oh, don't worry, at the moment I think you're pro-town. It's just that the move wasn't thought through too much. Either that or you're an evil genius that has planned this to a T.

Why the unnecessary remainder of doubt placed on Wumbo? Do you consider that last possibility to be valid or not? Because the sentence seems weirdly unnecessary.

Gah, I had a birthday to attend and I was away for a few days. I thought I posted that I was going to be absent in this thread but I guess it slipped my mind. Anyway, DWS seems a bit suspicious as do Chenhsi and Wumbo.

You listed everyone the people talked about... and also contradicted yourself on Wumbo. Why the sudden change of heart?

We have dudes on here now talking about their gut feelings, so we'll see how far that gets us in the game.

I wouldn't vote off a gut feeling unless there was evidence that the person was scum.

Can you give an example of such evidence? To me, all mafia votes are gut feelings explained in a logical manner. Mafia isn't a game of debating.

Gah, this is where my inexperience annoys me. I guess I'll

Unvote Chenhsi

but I'd really like to see you pick up the pace. We have six days left until we reach the deadline. I guess it's time for a reread.

Those results being?

[Litral]

Better clarify a bit on some "innnovative" ideas before people ask.

Cass - I still don't like the "claim doc" comment on his part, not that it did a lot of damage, but the brain that would motivate such a comment seemed to be that of scum.

It is known that Cass thought of this strategy and considered it to be fairly powerful if not expected by the scum.

If he were town, it would benefit the entire town to hide the strategy from the scum, and if necessary to later hint that the real doc need not counter claim. It is clear that if the scum knows of this strategy, then the strategy becomes less valid.

If he were scum, he considered that chenhsi would adopt this strategy, and would be annoyed at the situation of WIFOM it presented him; he would like to say it earlier to discourage chenhsi from using this strategy.

"Giving the scum WIFOM" is not a good explanation, because he is also giving the town a lot of WIFOM (Should we lynch him for claiming doc or not? If not now, when? Should the doc counter-claim?), and plus, now that the scum knows, his claim would affect the scum as much as me saying this: I am the vigilante and I'm lying about being the vigilante. It would affect the scum not at all.

I'm aware that MoS pulled a similar strategy in a newbie game, but the intentions are entirely different; that was to provoke reactions and this is a near-lynch final claim.

Godot - I don't like post 33, saying that he wanted to get serious.

DWS, Wumbo and Godot all said something amounting to "serious time nao", and I really don't understand it. Why would anyone say that? Is a clear and direct transaction necessarily better for the town?

[Cass]

Frankly, I did not consider the possibility that Chen has a strategy. I certainly didn't think through all the possibilities he would have if he did have one. That post was 95% pure frustration, 0% innovative idea (Thus my later rationalizations of it are a bit fail.)
I can see what you mean now but I can assure you I had not considered that option (ever, in fact, seeing as I'm quite new at this game). I will remember it for other games.

In other news, it's interesting to see DWS and Litral weakly defend eachother (with plenty wiggle room to fall back on if the other flips scum).

[Dark wingstalker]

I'm not weakly defending him?

I already said i thought he was somewhat scummy, but i didnt trust my gut enough to vote on it? Most of your posts seem to be misrepresentation to some degree, and when i responded, you chose to ignore it in your next posts, this tiem attacking litral.

I dont like aggressive players by nature, I find that alot of flailing around tends to get townies lynched before scum, and so i like to spend alot of time sitting back and analysing. I also dislike lurking, which means i often post without alot to say for the first day.

As for weakly defence? Litral is fully backing me as far as i can see, repeatedly stating that he believes me to be town.

[maxwellhouse]

Max - Very conflicted views. Seems that he doesn't like lurkers - thus voting chenhsi - and yet suggests lurking is not scummy. And he's sticking a lot to DWS, but I don't see a vote from him on DWS...

not really. i don't like people who post NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE when they post. not like DWS, who is trying at least. chenhsi is saying "i have nothing to say" then the next post "i still have nothing to say." by now, i'm pretty sure he's doing this just to annoy us.

lurking is NOT good for town, but lurking does not automatically mean scum. that is what i said in my post, if you read it. lurkers CAN be townies. however, never do i say lurking = good for town or lurking = townies!!! because it's not. it's just not an automatic scumtell, which some people seem to be seeing it as.

i am suspicious of someone, but it is more out of gut than anything. i don't want to say it until i have more proof of it, as it means diddlysquat right now to just have suspicions.

as for DWS, i said specifically i think he's town, did i not? an unsure town, but a town.

i'm not really sure of litral's "list of suspicions." it seems to eliminate yourself as scum and put yourself as a powerful part of town, when in reality no one is cleared yet.

[StrangerCoug]

Also, the case on litral?? I dont think it really stands up, but i did attack him somewhat during my bandwagon. While i was being attacked, litral brought wumbo to l-2. I'll fig up the post: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 92#1149292

I dont have a great deal else to say on the matter, He's coming off as scummy, but as i've since been proven to be totally new at this sort of thing, I'm not trusting my gut at the moment.

Please don't tell me you're playing the newbie card again.

Vote: Dark wingstalker

[Dark wingstalker]

Im not playing the newbie card, I'm playing the "I'd like more evidence before i vote litral because my gut may not be 100%" card.

[Litral]

Im not playing the newbie card, I'm playing the "I'd like more evidence before i vote litral because my gut may not be 100%" card.

I don't even know where you began to change your mind about me. Right after imaginality's post, mayhaps?

i'm not really sure of litral's "list of suspicions." it seems to eliminate yourself as scum and put yourself as a powerful part of town, when in reality no one is cleared yet.

Sorry, eliminate myself or DWS? If you're saying "myself", well, I don't know how to respond, because I'm simply offering the entirety of my suspicions in great detail. Perhaps that was not wise?

[Dark wingstalker]

*sigh* look, I have a list of "people i think are scummy" that comprises most of the game. I need more information to work with.

I stated early on that you jumping on the wumbo wagon while i was being grilled was scummy to me, and that remains scummy to me, but its not scummy enough to warrant a vote.

But i also think Cass, Godot, nhat and Coug are scummy, but i dont have a firm conclusion to vote on yet, so i'm not voting. I only voted on Chenshi because he really was doing nothing for the town. I just want to be sure.

[Dark wingstalker]

you all seem to attack each other for changing your opinions, but thats part of mafia. People examine evidence in new ways, and that prompts you to think of new things.

[Also, i need to stop clicking post before i'm finished with my post.]

[StrangerCoug]

But i also think Cass, Godot, nhat and Coug are scummy, but i dont have a firm conclusion to vote on yet, so i'm not voting.

Explain your case on each of us.

[chenhsi]

i'm not really sure of litral's "list of suspicions." it seems to eliminate yourself as scum and put yourself as a powerful part of town, when in reality no one is cleared yet.

Can you explain this? It seems to me like your point is that Litral assumed he was town when he wrote his "list of suspicions".

[maxwellhouse]

Can you explain this? It seems to me like your point is that Litral assumed he was town when he wrote his "list of suspicions".

no, i meant i don't know if i really like it that he made the list in the first place.

eh.. i'm kinda tired. i think i pointed that out of nowhere.

question though, no one seemed to answer. can there be more than one cop in this type of game? is it common or not?

[chenhsi]

There can, but I don't think it is really common, especially with the number of people.

[Inspector Godot]

I'm willing to accept that it was a joke vote, but it could very well have given us a few clues.

Those clues being?

I said

could

have. I was looking for people to question me and/or act suspicious, neither of which happened. The only thing that really stood out to me was you taking a clear joke vote way too seriously. I'm still not sure if that was a good play on your behalf or not.

Well, that's just for you to find out now isn't it.

Oh, don't worry, at the moment I think you're pro-town. It's just that the move wasn't thought through too much. Either that or you're an evil genius that has planned this to a T.

Why the unnecessary remainder of doubt placed on Wumbo? Do you consider that last possibility to be valid or not? Because the sentence seems weirdly unnecessary.

It was a weak joke. Don't take it to seriously.

Gah, I had a birthday to attend and I was away for a few days. I thought I posted that I was going to be absent in this thread but I guess it slipped my mind. Anyway, DWS seems a bit suspicious as do Chenhsi and Wumbo.

You listed everyone the people talked about... and also contradicted yourself on Wumbo. Why the sudden change of heart?

While I was gone Wumbo had been put on L-1 and a hell of a lot of fingerpointing was going on. I was reading it and was eager to see what Wumbo had to say about being put on L-1 and.... he didn't mention it at all.

]

We have dudes on here now talking about their gut feelings, so we'll see how far that gets us in the game.

I wouldn't vote off a gut feeling unless there was evidence that the person was scum.

Can you give an example of such evidence? To me, all mafia votes are gut feelings explained in a logical manner. Mafia isn't a game of debating.[/quote]

I don't really get what you're asking here. It would be basically a normal vote except I doubt I'd take it off quite as fast.

DWS, Wumbo and Godot all said something amounting to "serious time nao", and I really don't understand it. Why would anyone say that? Is a clear and direct transaction necessarily better for the town?

I said it because it looked like the joke voting stage was over to me. So sue me.

Gah, this is where my inexperience annoys me. I guess I'll

Unvote Chenhsi

but I'd really like to see you pick up the pace. We have six days left until we reach the deadline. I guess it's time for a reread.

Those results being?

StrangerCoug and Imaginality seem the most pro-town. You, maxwellhouse, Cass, nhat and geraintm are most likely town in my book, but max does need to post a bit more. Tom and Kenfucius don't give me much of a read. Chen.... Really annoys me but I see no reason to doubt his claim of cop. DWS seems very suspicious but he could just be a fellow newbie. Wumbo is 50/50 at the moment.

[imaginality]

Litral's responses to my case against him are inadequate. His explanation of why he voted Wumbo (121) and then switched to chenhsi (137) is basically that he "only barely read the posts" when he cast his vote on Wumbo, and switched votes after "careful reading" of the same posts. Litral says:

Again, my post showed that at that time I had not been attentive, and I did promise to read the whole thing later. That I did, and that's the unvote post. I think that the fact that I did not have time

at that particular moment

must be stressed; it explains the situation surrounding those two posts in a logical way.

The problems with this explanation:

(a) He's saying he voted Wumbo (to L-2) after 'barely reading' the recent posts: it seems unacceptable to cast a vote so lightly, why not hold off voting until he'd had a chance to read?
(b) it didn't take much attention to see that Dark wingstalker was in the hot seat; I still find his lack of comment suspicious, when combined with his attempt to stay clear of that debate later (183)
(c) saying "I get town vibes out of Wumbo's final defenses" (137) is a conveniently vague get-out clause for switching his vote; what were those townie vibes that stood out clearly after a reread but not when he cast his vote?
(d)In explaining his "not going to bother with this discussion" post (183), Litral says, "Since you did not explain why my arguments saying that DWS was not scum to me are bad, I cannot argue with this." - but at that point, he hadn't given any reasons for thinking DWS was not scum, so this doesn't answer my point at all.

while DWS did seem to misinterpret and misspeak at times, those misinterpretations are not meant to be malicious or anti-town, and to me, not intentional.

And? You mean to say he made those mistakes on purpose. I see no scum-benefit in that.

No benefit in 'accidentally' voting someone to L-1 without good reason? I think there's a clear benefit for scum to do that: the chance that someone else might then hammer that player. And there's also benefit in misinterpretations when you're scum, if you hope you can thereby confuse the case being made against you or hope to shift the focus away from your actions and on to semantics.

On the other hand: if you're going to claim, claim doc. Then the scum can kill you if we don't.

Not any more they will.

Umm... it makes sense. I'm not happy with Cass bringing up the point out loud, thus denying chenhsi that strategy if he had it.[/quote]

As mentioned above, Cass suggesting to chenhsi to claim doc doesn't deny chenhsi the strategy of claiming doc. Your 'not any more they will' seems to suggest that scum will now not night-kill chenhsi if he claims doc, which is (a) good if he

was

doc, and (b) something you couldn't know either way, if you're town.

As for whether Cass's "claim doc chenhsi" suggestion was a good or bad post, I don't think it was particularly bad, because, if chenhsi had claimed doc in the absence of that post, given his play so far there's little chance maf would think he might be tricking them. Whereas if chenhsi had claimed doc after Cass's remark, there would indeed be WIFOM involved for maf to try to decide whether chenhsi was doc or was just following Cass's suggestion.

I actually find geraintm's post 267 more suspicious - where he says:

telling people what to claim? it only likemakes sense if you are the doc and wanted to counter claim immediatly!

That smells like fishing to me - could easily be something scum would say in order to get a better sense of whether Cass is doc from his reaction to this comment. I think I will have a re-read geraintm's posts. My vote, though, stays on Litral.

[Dark wingstalker]

But i also think Cass, Godot, nhat and Coug are scummy, but i dont have a firm conclusion to vote on yet, so i'm not voting.

Explain your case on each of us.

Nhat, I feel he's scummy because of his earlier play. While i no longer feel he is "as scummy" As before, i didnt like the way his first 4-5 posts were simply attacks at any percieved weakness. Sure, you may argue thats how you play mafia, but thats also how scum play mafia.

Godot seems to be posting just enough to appear "in" the game, but is generally not saying alot. I feel its scummy, but not overly because thats how i'm playing, so he may just be new like me.

Coug appears scummy for the same sort of reasons Nhat is, He's relentlessly pushing attacks. Coug is the least scummy of the 4 for me, and i feel he is probably town, but my gut said he appeared scummy, so i'm keeping an eye on him.

Cass? The continual misrepresentation works against her, as does her dodging of certain questions. I say she is the most scummy, but as i have said, that doesnt mean much as all i have right now are weak suspicions.

[nhat]

well damn, a lot has popped off since I last checked. Going to do a reread and post later.