Mini 626 - Crew vs. Pigs - GAME OVER!!

[LlamaFluff]

Oh Pickles, go town

[Kison]

I'm thinking it's Cub as well, but what's bothering me is that FL pushed so hard to have Dark Dude investigated. What we know from Ennui's role PM is that his team realized they had a BPV ability and lacked investigation immunity. I could see them assuming the other team was in the same boat when Dark Dude came out so early and claimed to have a bulletproof ability.

Are you saying that you think DD might be a bulletproof from the opposite scum team? It's possible, and another reason why I think the vig should shoot him twice.

Not necessarily. What I was mainly saying here is that I could see scum given a bulletproof ability(Ennui's team) reacting to Dark Dude's claim by assuming he was from the

other

team with the same ability, and try to have the claim invalidated.

As for whether or not _I_ think it's true, I'm not sure. We don't know what he other team has as far as abilities goes. I find it weird that scum without an investigation immunity would try to do something like this, though.

[ting =)]

=(

go town.

[Cass]

So, we now know there's two teams of cops who arrest independently. Ennui's partner is alone, I agree very much we shoulkd find him. Yes, I say 'him' on purpose, I don't think Ennui tried misleading us as his final act, I think he was honestly upset about being backstabbed. If I were his partner, I'd also have hopped on that wagon as soon as he started quoting PM's. The shortlist is:

DD, Kison, raider, forbiddan, cubsfan

I'm taking Forbiddan off the list, because she's female. In fact, I do think she's scum - but on the other team. I take DD off, because in light of last day his claim looks much better. I also don't think investigation-immune scum is very likely anymore.

That leaves Kison, raider and cubsfan.

Kison:

asks DD some possibly scummy questions (like can he be killed in endgame). He attacks Forbiddan, which could make sense if she was on the other cop-team. After the disastrous Ennui-claim, he voted him and asked some questions that could be seen as possible openings (to unvote). He questioned the tracker/watcher ability, which could be scum trying to seed doubt, because they all have similar abilities.

What we know from Ennui's role PM is that his team realized they had a BPV ability and lacked investigation immunity. I could see them assuming the other team was in the same boat when Dark Dude came out so early and claimed to have a bulletproof ability.

I could see scum given a bulletproof ability(Ennui's team) reacting to Dark Dude's claim by assuming he was from the other team with the same ability, and try to have the claim invalidated.

Could be a slip, there's no evidence that all the cops (on the same team) have the same abilities. He also seeds doubt about Ennui's partner-claim. However, he's the one who points out the 'him' in Ennui's post! (Very much of a bonus point, imo)

Conclusion: it's all circumstantial evidence, but a case could certainly be made against Kison. His behaviour might be consistent with him being Ennui's partner. He could also be Forbiddan's partner on the other team, pointing out the 'him' to save her.

Note: Early in the game, Forbiddan had 'really bad vibes' about Kison, but no case.

Raider:

In the early game, he does not give a lot of (original) opinions, his play feels cautious. He asks for consensus and the opinions of others. He proposes to let DD decide the lynch for D1. Ting, who was crew, attacked raider because of that.
He does some fishing about Ennui's role. Kison attacks him for it, Raider votes Kison.

As it seems some people have odd roles, what I was trying to do is figure out what sorts of unique abilities could be out there.

Bulletproof isn't such an odd or unique role. This could be a slip, meaning he's one of the cops and has some interesting abilitites, just like Ennui had.
He asks people to "make a case on anyone", but doesn't do so himself. He thinks at first that Ennui's role is probably a town-role and unvotes him. Revotes on the 'standard issue' thing. Wants to lynch the guy that's already going to be modkilled 'to make things easier for the mod'. Right now, he's voting cubsfan (no reason given).

Conclusion: I think Raider's town. He plays cautious, but hasn't done anything very scummy. I certainly see no connection to Ennui.

Cubsfan: Doesn't post a lot. Does not buy DD's claim, accuses him of distracting and votes him. Trying to get DD lynched is all he does until Ennui claims. Then Cubs gets on the wagon (pissed about the pm-quoting and assuming a modkill either way). This could well be the event that upset Ennui so much. He also seeds doubt about Ennui's partner-backstab.

Conclusion: Fits the bill, I can certainly see why people are voting him.

Vote: Cubsfan4ever

Another thing: we should probably assume that all the pigs have bulletproof vests and I think we should also work under the assumption that they all have investigative abilities (similar to Ennui). It fits the flavor. For example:

if

anyone targeted DD last night with anything, best assume DD was being watched, with all the talk of vig- and investigation-targeting on him.

[Cass]

FOS Cass for unvoting, then going against Ennui but not revoting.

I preferred a mod-kill over a lynch+mod-kill, I think things would have been less messy and less confusing if we had done it that way. But as I said, consider me on that wagon, I definitely wanted him to die. My vote was just waiting for the mod. Last day there were:
- People who wanted to wait for the mod
- People who wanted to lynch Ennui on principle
- People who wanted to lynch someone else, hoping to get two kills in one day

Now this situation was quite unique, so I have no idea if any of those reactions is a scum-tell or town-tell at all.

[raider8169]

Bulletproof isn't such an odd or unique role. This could be a slip, meaning he's one of the cops and has some interesting abilitites, just like Ennui had.

Right now, he's voting cubsfan (no reason given).

Bulletproof isnt something I have been in a game with before as this is my first theme type game so all these roles are new to me.

As far a voting cubsfan, I figured I didnt need a case.

Everyone knows the Ennui said his partner was bussing him so that means he was voting for him. Out of those that were on the bandwagon I picked the one I thought he was refering too. Everything just seemed to fit with cubsfan so that is why I am voting him.

[cicero]

Day Two Vote Count 1

[/b]

Cubsfanforever[4] (raider8169, Goatrevolt, Kison, Cass)

Not Voting[5] (forbiddanlight, Matin, Cubsfan4ever, The Fonz, Darkdude)

With 9 Alive 5 will lynch

[The Fonz]

Oh and just my final thoughts since yesterday:

FOS Fonz for not seeing Ennui as scum - AT ALL
.

Dude, up until the claim, nothing he had done was ACTUALLY scummy. His thought process seemed to me to make perfect sense as town.

I think you can safely rule me out for a few reasons. First of all, I made the initial case against him, and then pushed the case back on him even after people were unvoting from the role claim. That would be pretty extreme lengths for busing. Secondly, he joined the wagon against Chenhsi (who I replaced) in a really scummy manner. For someone who seemed extremely pissed at getting bused, I doubt he would try to bus his own buddy like that. Thirdly, He mentioned that his scum buddy "hopped on the wagon against him." I started the wagon.

Not too keen on people saying stuff like this about themselves, but meh. You have a point.

I'm already at three votes and I think we should at least slow down and consider the fact that Ennui may have been trying to throw us off before we rush to any lynch.

I'd agree with not rushing, but I don't think ennui is that clever.

I'm thinking it's Cub as well, but what's bothering me is that FL pushed so hard to have Dark Dude investigated. What we know from Ennui's role PM is that his team realized they had a BPV ability and lacked investigation immunity. I could see them assuming the other team was in the same boat when Dark Dude came out so early and claimed to have a bulletproof ability.

Are you saying that you think DD might be a bulletproof from the opposite scum team? It's possible, and another reason why I think the vig should shoot him twice.

No reason not to- if his bulletproof claim is true, then he won't die the second time either.

[Matin]

woh..this wagon went really quick, but it makes me feel more confident, not less..

I am also tending to believe that Ennui was genuinely pissed for being bandwagonned when he made his statement. I originally thought Ennui was referring to DD in his somewhat cryptic statement, because he first hinted at claiming after DD jumped on the first wagon and then hinted strongly at his bullet proof claim in the follow up.

This morning I reread cubsfan and noticed that he made this post just 16 posts before Ennui's frustratingly talks about his scum buddy bandwagoning him, which seems to be a more direct connection then the DD one I noted day 1..

FOS: Everyone that unvoted Ennui

What the fuck? That role claim made no sense at all. We (the town) are a mafia competing against cops who seem to arrest us as a way of night-killing.

He claims to have a "standard bulletproof vest" so that he can not be shot. His role is completely contradictary to the flavor darkdude described and that just don't fly.

I've had my doubts about DD but ennui's claim just makes no sense for the flavor of the game. To top it off, if that was true he would be mod-killed for quoting by now.

Unvote: darkdude

Vote: Ennui

re:the bolded, Cubsfan was voting DD for a lot of day 1, then after the claim he says the different flavor from dark dude is one thing that made it obvious Ennui was lieing. So obvious in fact that he FOS's everyone who paused for a second by unvoting. Kind of strange that a contradictory Bullet proof flavor would bother him so strongly, so quickly when he wasn't buying DD's claim to begin with. I can understand changing your mind, but that seemed too sudden...

His defense today was also very weak and almost as if he's giving up..

I feel good enough about it to hammer him now frankly, but there's a couple of other players who haven't even been heard from yet so I'm inclined to wait a bit..

[The Fonz]

Yes. Let everyone check in.

[forbiddanlight]

Alright, pretty much I think you guys have it pretty air tight on cubs. I really can't think of anything to add. I'd be willing to hammer, but The Fonz has a point about letting everyone check in. I think I might be the last one though. As for me being on the other cop team, we can either discuss this now or tomorrow. I really don't care. In fact, that's another good reason I'm not hammering yet. I want to see the specific case on me in one post. Odds are because I just skimmed the shortness of this day I missed it, but I'm also a narcissist. I like having posts dedicated to tearing me apart .

[Cubsfan4ever]

fuck I lost my whole post...

What I meant with darkdude-Ennui is that with the contradicting ways they claimed, at least one (possibly both) of them two would be lying. I still find darkdude suspicious and it seems what I called yesterday about the town foolishly thinking he was confirmed to be correct. Yet, his claim at least fit the flavor of the game.. Ennui's claim made no sense at all towards the flavor or mechanics of the game in any which way.

I'll just say that basing this lynch on the words of a dying scumbag is probably the stupidest thing you could do. The scum's job is to deliberately deceive the town in a way to cause mislynches. As I pointed out last night, if he was in a gamebreaking mood it's likely he would have just named his scum partner and cancel the game rather than leave little hints. When it's town vs. scum for the town to be taking the word of scum is just counter-productive towards every logical way to catch scum.

Since there seems to be nothing I can do, I'll just give my thoughts so you guys can hopefully catch a scum tomorrow. Hopefully after I turn up town you will base a lynch on something other than the word of Ennui. He's scum, don't listen to scum. Even if you think they were just in a pissy mood. Good suspects are Kison and Raider. Kison is the one pushing hard this whole "who fits Ennui's statement best" bill which seems to have proven to be a decent way to buy one or possibly even two free lynches. Also raider. His posts just suck. No analysis just agreement. Instead of "yeah you guys got it down pat" how bout saying WHAT they have down pat and WHY they have it down pat with some expansion of ideas as well. It's either bad town play or just lazy scum play from him.

This claim ain't gonna save me but I figure I'll let you all know who I am anyways. I'm Leo Lingui- crew member. Basically, I'm a townie with no special powers who is just a loyal crew member wanting to take down pigs. I win when anyone working against the crew is eliminated.

For shits and giggles I'll

Vote: Kison

but I realize this town seems hellbent on lynching me so good luck town.

[Kison]

A vote for Kison is a vote in the wrong direction.

[Goatrevolt]

Oh Pickles

Scum tell.

As for whether or not _I_ think it's true, I'm not sure. We don't know what he other team has as far as abilities goes. I find it weird that scum without an investigation immunity would try to do something like this, though.

I agree. DD would be one ballsy scum to try a gambit like that without investigation immunity. Once we shoot him twice, though, he'll either be dead or confirmed, so that'll solve that issue.

Last day there were:
- People who wanted to wait for the mod
- People who wanted to lynch Ennui on principle
- People who wanted to lynch someone else, hoping to get two kills in one day

Now this situation was quite unique, so I have no idea if any of those reactions is a scum-tell or town-tell at all.

I don't really think any of those stances really points towards alignment. You waiting for the mod to come in isn't a scum tell at all.

Not too keen on people saying stuff like this about themselves, but meh. You have a point.

I generally avoid the "preemptive defense" as well, but I figured I'd just cross myself off the list from the get-go.

CubsFan's vanilla claim doesn't mean much one way or another. I see no reason not to hammer once we're ready to end the day.

[forbiddanlight]

CubsFan's vanilla claim doesn't mean much one way or another. I see no reason not to hammer once we're ready to end the day.

My vote is at the ready. I just want a consensus on how we'll deal with me.

[Goatrevolt]

My vote is at the ready. I just want a consensus on how we'll deal with me.

What do you mean deal with you?

[forbiddanlight]

I count at least 3 posts fingering me as scum. Now, I could hammer cubs and see if people are gonna push my case the next day, or we could try to resolve the idea that I'm scum now. I'm not, and I want to get people off my case so that we can concentrate on finding scum. So, I want to see if my accusers want to inquisit me now, or if they want to wait til we've seen cubs flip.

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: Posts should be posters. Cass, you (kinda, you still suspect me but not as much as cubs), and I think there was someone else.

[Kison]

As for whether or not _I_ think it's true, I'm not sure. We don't know what he other team has as far as abilities goes. I find it weird that scum without an investigation immunity would try to do something like this, though.

I agree. DD would be one ballsy scum to try a gambit like that without investigation immunity. Once we shoot him twice, though, he'll either be dead or confirmed, so that'll solve that issue.

Disagree with lack of death being a confirmation. Nothing indicates that there is a Vigilante in the game. In fact, misleading flavor has already been confirmed via Ennui's roleclaim. Take a look at it. The PM he showed us says he has a one-shot bulletproof vest capable of preventing any night kill, yet the scum in this game 'kill' through use of arrests. Taking that into account, at least, Ennui's bulletproof is explainable through the existence of a second scum group. Dark Dude's, should he be telling the truth, is explainable through the existence of scum - there doesn't have to be a Vigilante in the game for his role to make sense.

Should we see a dead Vigilante somewhere in the future, that would be a different story entirely.

[Goatrevolt]

Forbiddan, you were one of my top two picks for Ennui's scum partner, but then Kison pointed out that it was a he. I think you could definitely be part of the other scum group, but I'm not seeing any reason why we need to discuss that today.

One lynch at a time.

Disagree with lack of death being a confirmation. Nothing indicates that there is a Vigilante in the game. In fact, misleading flavor has already been confirmed via Ennui's roleclaim. Take a look at it. The PM he showed us says he has a one-shot bulletproof vest capable of preventing any night kill, yet the scum in this game 'kill' through use of arrests. Taking that into account, at least, Ennui's bulletproof is explainable through the existence of a second scum group. Dark Dude's, should he be telling the truth, is explainable through the existence of scum - there doesn't have to be a Vigilante in the game for his role to make sense.

Should we see a dead Vigilante somewhere in the future, that would be a different story entirely.

I totally agree. I got ahead of myself there. Either he's dead and scum, or he's alive and possibly confirmed, which depends on the presence of a vigilante.

[forbiddanlight]

Forbiddan, you were one of my top two picks for Ennui's scum partner, but then Kison pointed out that it was a he. I think you could definitely be part of the other scum group, but I'm not seeing any reason why we need to discuss that today.

One lynch at a time.

It's fine by me. I wanna see what Cass has to say on it, as well as anyone else who might think I'm scum.

[raider8169]

I count at least 3 posts fingering me as scum. Now, I could hammer cubs and see if people are gonna push my case the next day, or we could try to resolve the idea that I'm scum now. I'm not, and I want to get people off my case so that we can concentrate on finding scum. So, I want to see if my accusers want to inquisit me now, or if they want to wait til we've seen cubs flip.

If people are willing to vote cubs then I dont see why we should wait, I however do not have a case against you so my say doesnt really matter.

[forbiddanlight]

Because, you see, if I hammer now, it'll seem like I'm running away from the cases people have for me. I'd rather not toxify the next day that way, instead letting my accusers choose when to accost me.

[raider8169]

Because, you see, if I hammer now, it'll seem like I'm running away from the cases people have for me. I'd rather not toxify the next day that way, instead letting my accusers choose when to accost me.

Maybe but unless someone thinks you are Ennui's partner you will not be the lynch or even the chance of the lynch for today.

[forbiddanlight]

Maybe but unless someone thinks you are Ennui's partner you will not be the lynch or even the chance of the lynch for today.

I'm aware of that. Most of the people accusing me think I'm on the other side. But, I do agree with goat's opinion of one lynch at a time. I'm just letting my accusers make the decision so I can defend allegations on their terms.