Mini 611 - Troy, Meet Helen (Game Over)

[Thesp]

Ok, am I the only one who thinks our cop's claim is fishy as hell? Thesp, you made it through the night when you were claimed cop. Now I can see multiple explanations for this, as since it would make you a good target for scum, it would for the same reason make you a good target for Doc. But also the target you investigated just happen to be NK'd. Convenient because he can't verify or reject this result, AND a wonderful excuse if a tracker shows up asking why you went to Batt's last night. And now you're saying your unknown sanity is now probably paranoid. So basically now if you give a real result, we're supposed to say, "This is wrong but he's paranoid so that must be why!"

This must be THE most convenient claim for a scum-as-cop ever.

I realize that.

It should be pointed out, though, from a gamechoice standpoint, that the tracker following me would be a silly choice. There's also no chance I'm making it to the endgame, so if I'm scum, I'm going to be lynched eventually, and if I'm town, I'm going to be killed eventually. (How long can scum leave me alive if I

do

give meaningful results, which they don't know if I do or not yet?)

Also, are you really suggesting that charter doesn't like Tinsley

because Tinsley is thinking too much?

Yeesh.

On an aside, it looked like Tinsley (and/or others?) thought I had forgotten to unvote Netlava yesterday. I was out of town from Thursday afternoon on, but either way I would not have unvoted Netlava (making that moot).

Walnut, what do you think of Tinsley? What do you think of Lord Gurgi?

[Walnut]

Vote Charter

Charter is guilty as hell. His approach today is to rush in saying "Of course Walnut is the lynch for today, and I am prepared to say anything and everything to support that. If you say something else, you are just distracting the town".

Aside from some of the stuff that other people have already pointed out, in his first post he says (my

bold

)

vote walnut

Thesp, who did you investigate? Why? Why shouldn't we lynch you?

Walnut is definate scum.

Another tell is asking Thesp what he thinks now...

Six posts later:

I'm voting Walnut for the exact same reasons as yesterday,

not for asking Thesp anything

.

Similarly:

Thesp, you are both a claimed cop and my number one scum suspect on Day 1. What do you have to say for yourself at this moment?

Walnut's question of "What do you have to say for yourself at this moment?" I interpreted as "You were wrong about Netlava being scum and you're my number one scum suspect, what do you have to say for yourself at this moment?" Going back, I can see how what I said created confusion.

That is clearly someone fixated on a particular lynch and so obsessed with his efforts that he contradicts himself, makes things up and keeps on blindly raging. When he first suspected me yesterday, I simply took it as trying a bit of an argument against any player to see what would happen. However, he kept on going, even when the case was well answered. Not just saying that myself:

Charter: from Walnut's defense of to you, I think he dispelled most of the points you had against him, yet you still find him scummiest

Now I am convinced he is scum, and he has run out of chances to say "Going back, I can see how what I said created confusion. " and be forgiven.

This next bit is stupid:

I'm voting Walnut for the exact same reasons as yesterday, not for asking Thesp anything. Nothing has changed except Batt has left my LoS.

This game is about information. As well as trying to get people to only talk about what you want them to talk about, you are denying that night has happened- we now know that Netlava was a townie, and Battousai (a townie) has been killed. We know that other night roles have had a chance to take an action, and we knew that there was at least one claimed investigative role. How could you legitimately deliberately ignore all that extra knowledge?

It should be noted that Charter's case on me, as much as I have been able to understand from his ravings, was based on 1) distracting the town with irrelevancies, and 2) non-committalness and lack of scumhunting. On 1) I say again what I have said all along, that everything posted can lead to something useful and on Day 2 he has already overstepped his mark on trying to direct and shutdown conversation; and on 2) I say guess what? All that conversation has been useful, as it has led to me being convinced that Charter is scum.

@Tinsley

While all members of the scum team may not have voted Netlava, I feel confident that one or two did.

Ask Macavenger about the Coron lynch in 578- or to save you the time, I can tell you that it was a Day 1 lynch, suspicious as hell, and it turned out to be all enthusiastic townies. In this case, especially when you threw in Thesp and Mac as having been willing to vote as well, you have named the vast majority of the players, which makes it hard to get much of a tell out of.

Walnut – I think everyone knows where I stand on him. Who do you suspect now that Netlava is gone?

Kind of a weird question, since I started the day by saying that Thesp was my number one suspect. In the context of Day 2, are you still finding me suspicious?

Obviously, Charter has now superseded Thesp on the list. The guy I am almost sorry for is Macavenger. He has been keeping a lower profile while sharing with Charter the role of attacking me, but is embarrassed as Charter keeps getting it wrong. It is hard to both froth at the mouth and sound reasonable. If Charter were lynched and came up scum, there is no way that Mac would not be the next day.

[Thesp]

everything posted can lead to something useful

I've quoted part of your post that's painfully wrong.

[charter]

How much probative scumhunting did farside22 do? How many posts did she have that looked like they were useful, but went nowhere? How often did she go on tangents away from the centerpoint of discussion?

Not much, a few more, a few less.

Now, why does fark get singled out when SG has done NOTHING this entire game. Why are you not suspicious of Walnut who has done zero scumhunting the entire game? Farside at least tried it on me, if only to give up very easy. Beside's camn/BB's claim, what have they done? What have YOU done in the terms of scumhunting or posts that were useful? Decreeing Netlava to be scum? That turned out well... What about Gurgi? All he's done is build a BS case against Netlava.

The reason why I didn't answer these questions before... He singles out Fark when they apply to half the people here. Why do you all jump on me for trying to figure out why he's singling out Fark? Why don't you ask him why he singles people out?

[Walnut]

Eh, cross posted with Thesp.

Walnut, what do you think of Tinsley? What do you think of Lord Gurgi?

My read on Tinsley is still more town than not. I think he is honestly scumhunting with an open mind, and while sometimes being unduly influenced by other players is doing a good job.

I am not very clear on Lord Gurgi, but lean towards town. On Day 1 Netlava tried to build a case on one ambiguously worded post, which I didn't buy into. He had a huge analytical post back at #317 which, while I don't agree with every point, gave me a town vibe.

Thesp, what is your opinion on Tinsley? How about on Charter?

[Walnut]

everything posted can lead to something useful

I've quoted part of your post that's painfully wrong.

I bow to the superiority of the member since 2004, the supersaint, the paragon of mafiahunters!

No, actually, I don't. At the very least, there is a "can" in there which makes it at least technically true. I find the reactions you get out of people on supposedly non-critical discussions are informative.

[charter]

It is so painfully obvious Walnut is scum.

[Walnut]

Incidentally Thesp, setting aside the bit that you have mentioned that you disagree with, what do you think of the rest of the post?

[Thesp]

Now, why does fark get singled out when SG has done NOTHING this entire game.

Because SG is town.

Decreeing Netlava to be scum? That turned out well...

I'm sorry, it looks like the secret is out. I hoped you wouldn't find out this way. Perhaps it's better if you knew, but, if only we could live in happier times where kids were still kids, and life was easy - I kept telling myself that what you didn't know wouldn't hurt you. But now the awful truth is out, and I'm forced to confess...

I'm wrong sometimes.

I am sorry that I was wrong about Netlava's alignment. I think I'm right about some other ones, though.

Also re: farkshinsoup, the way that farside22 did this felt markedly different than how others have done it - it felt deliberate.

Thesp, what is your opinion on Tinsley? How about on Charter?

I think Tinsley is scum. I think charter is pro-town and not thinking very well.

I bow to the superiority of the member since 2004, the supersaint, the paragon of mafiahunters!

No, actually, I don't. At the very least, there is a "can" in there which makes it at least technically true. I find the reactions you get out of people on supposedly non-critical discussions are informative.

Please don't patronize me. I don't think me being here since 2004 makes me any more right. (I think there are other things that make me more right. ) I recognize I may be wrong about the latter. Also, as a counter-factual:

Skullcrusher Mountain
by Jonathan Coulton
Welcome to my secret lair on Skullcrusher Mountain
I hope that you’ve enjoyed your stay so far
I see you’ve met my assistant Scarface
His appearance is quite disturbing
But I assure you he’s harmless enough
He’s a sweetheart, calls me master
And he has a way of finding pretty things and bringing them to me

I’m so into you
But I’m way too smart for you
Even my henchmen think I’m crazy
I’m not surprised that you agree
If you could find some way to be
A little bit less afraid of me
You’d see the voices that control me from inside my head
Say I shouldn’t kill you yet

I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you
But I get the feeling that you don’t like it
What’s with all the screaming?
You like monkeys, you like ponies
Maybe you don’t like monsters so much
Maybe I used too many monkeys
Isn’t it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?

I’m so into you
But I’m way too smart for you
Even my henchmen think I’m crazy
I’m not surprised that you agree
If you could find some way to be
A little bit less afraid of me
You’d see the voices that control me from inside my head
Say I shouldn’t kill you yet

Picture the two of us alone inside my golden submarine
While up above the waves my doomsday squad ignites the atmosphere
And all the fools who live their foolish lives may find it quite explosive
But it won’t mean half as much to me if I don’t have you here

You know it isn’t easy living here on Skullcrusher Mountain
Maybe you could cut me just a little slack
Would it kill you to be civil?
I’ve been patient, I’ve been gracious
And this mountain is covered with wolves
Hear them howling, my hungry children
Maybe you should stay and have another drink and think about me and you

I’m so into you
But I’m way too smart for you
Even my henchmen think I’m crazy
I’m not surprised that you agree
If you could find some way to be
A little bit less afraid of me
You’d see the voices that control me from inside my head
Say I shouldn’t kill you yet
I shouldn’t kill you yet
I shouldn’t kill you yet

It's difficult to get to the useful stuff when it's buried in crap that doesn't pertain to the town's interests. (Even if Jonathan Coulton is hysterical.) Scum do this to weigh down re-reads and make it hard to wade through to find the useful stuff. Town unwittingly do it thinking ti gets them somewhere.

There is a point of diminishing returns to posting.

At some point, the useful information begins to be drowned out amongst the garbage. Forgive me if I'm terse at times, I'm tryign to avoid hitting this point of diminishing returns.

And Walnut, I didn't think the rest of your post was worth commenting further on. I still don't.

[Walnut]

Thesp, apologies- that was not meant to sound patronising. I think that if you had started out with

There is a point of diminishing returns to posting.

rather than

I've quoted part of your post that's painfully wrong.

then the conversation would have been more civil, as I agree with that. As for not thinking my post #501 was worth commenting on, that is your prerogative- you can only put the information out there, assume everyone will read it, and hope that most people will take it on board.

[charter]

Thesp, what makes you so sure SG is town. Comment on the rest of my questions.

[Thesp]

My apologies - I know I can get snarky at times, please forgive me when I do so. Carry on.

[Tinsley]

I am sorry that I was wrong about Netlava's alignment. I think I'm right about some other ones, though.

Also re: farkshinsoup, the way that farside22 did this felt markedly different than how others have done it - it felt deliberate.

Thesp, what is your opinion on Tinsley? How about on Charter?

I think Tinsley is scum. I think charter is pro-town and not thinking very well.

So you're confident that Fark and I are scum? Why did you investigate Batt instead of one of us?

[Thesp]

I am sorry that I was wrong about Netlava's alignment. I think I'm right about some other ones, though.

Also re: farkshinsoup, the way that farside22 did this felt markedly different than how others have done it - it felt deliberate.

Thesp, what is your opinion on Tinsley? How about on Charter?

I think Tinsley is scum. I think charter is pro-town and not thinking very well.

So you're confident that Fark and I are scum? Why did you investigate Batt instead of one of us?

Because I have a read on you (I think). I did not have one on Battousai. (My cop philosophy is to investigate those whom little is known about.)

[Farkshinsoup]

So Thesp has no useful investigations from last night.

Mod, if a cop investigates someone who is then NK'd will they still get a result on that person?

Woah, that's 5 on me isn't it?

My comments initially were based on a quick skim read of everything, the next post was after I had time to read through it all and reflect. THe first comment on the SK thing meant I thought that the speculation on teh SK was weird, but I didn't think Charter's assumption mix up had much in it at the time. Re-reading it, Charter was the one that made a comment on teh SK speculation first, which in turn began more open speculation about it.

Charter seems to be pushing for a lynch quite eagerly at the moment and it's only page 3.

Also, I'm a cop with an unknown sanity. Of course its up to you as to what you think of that.

This is the post where Had claimed. Notice that he said "unknown sanity". If this was a fake claim, it's a good move because 1) if there was a sane cop in the game, they would not counter claim, and 2) the unknown sanity part keeps him from being lynched. If he had said that he thought he was paranoid, he'd have probably been strung up.

So then why would Thesp further clarify the claim to say that it's most likely paranoid? If he was scum, what would he have to gain by that, especially considering he suspiciously investigated Batt? Thesp, could you elaborate at all about how you came to the conclusion that you are paranoid and not simply of unknown sanity?

For now,

FoS Thesp.

It's difficult to get to the useful stuff when it's buried in crap that doesn't pertain to the town's interests. (Even if Jonathan Coulton is hysterical.) Scum do this to weigh down re-reads and make it hard to wade through to find the useful stuff. Town unwittingly do it thinking ti gets them somewhere. There is a point of diminishing returns to posting. At some point, the useful information begins to be drowned out amongst the garbage.

QFT, though.

Now, onwards. Charter, I think you are scum.

Here was your response to Had's claim:

Don't lynch him today and if he lives through the night lynch him tomorrow. Of course the mafia could always not NK him, but I see that as much more unlikely than him actually being mafia (if he lives).

farside rightly called you out on this. Why are you not advocating that he be lynched today, since he is still alive?

In response to farside's calling him on it:

I think you trying to pin this on me is scummy. What does everyone else think?

"You are scummy - Hey everyone, don't you think she's scummy?" It's OMGUS, and an appeal to the majority to back you up.

If you now say that I'm further directing people, I'm going to explode. I'm not telling anyone to do anything, just explaining what I assumed obvious and that everyone thought.

When I asked for a "quick summary" of your case against Walnut, you choked me with a requote of your old posts. It's almost as if you wanted to show all of the work you had done to get to this point, rather than make a cogent argument.

A lot of your play this game seems to be a mix of fake aggressiveness (looking at every little thing that everyone does as a possible scum tell) and defensiveness when you are questioned. You seem like you are scumhunting, but I think that you are just flinging accusations around and trying to appear active.

Vote: charter

[charter]

All aboard.

[Tinsley]

Tinsley, I'm think I know what you mean but your wording on one thing confused me. Just to be clear:

"Could it be possible that [Camn's] role is scum oriented?"

Are you just saying, "Is it possible she is scum?" or do you mean something else?

Yeah, someone brought up the idea that Walnut may be the mafia version of a PGE. Couldn't it be possible that camn is the PGE working on the mafia side?

In the context of Day 2, are you still finding me suspicious?

When I first read your post 501, I really liked it, and wondered why you weren't making posts like this on D1. Then after thinking about it, Had/Thesp had been at the top of your suspect list all of D1, and you started D2 off by asking for his thoughts. After he provides a weak investigation story, you don't question him on it at all. Do you believe him? Same thing applies to charter. Bottom line is, yes I still suspect you, along with charter and Thesp.

On an aside, it looked like Tinsley (and/or others?) thought I had forgotten to unvote Netlava yesterday. I was out of town from Thursday afternoon on, but either way I would not have unvoted Netlava (making that moot).

I didn't mean you didn't unvote Netlava, I meant you forgot (or did you?) to unvote CF Riot before voting Netlava. But I can see how I worded that to be interpreted the way you did. You do realize you didn't end up voting Netlava in the end right?

I think Tinsley is scum.

Do you have any reasons to suspect me besides what you stated in post 389?

[charter]

Tinsley, I'm think I know what you mean but your wording on one thing confused me. Just to be clear:

"Could it be possible that [Camn's] role is scum oriented?"

Are you just saying, "Is it possible she is scum?" or do you mean something else?

Yeah, someone brought up the idea that Walnut may be the mafia version of a PGE. Couldn't it be possible that camn is the PGE working on the mafia side?

If the mafia have someone who kills whatever cop or doc or whatever that targets it, then this game is HORRIBLY unbalanced and we must have some ridiculous town power to compensate. I'm just not seeing it.

@Tinsley, Thesp is either the cop or brilliant scum. If he was just normal scum, he would have claimed an innocent on a townie to get them to subconsciously trust him and give strength to his claim. Coupled with no counterclaim, and no one hinting that he isn't the real cop, I believe he is. I also buy (for now) his reasoning for why he investigated Batt. If it happens again tonight, I'll probably change my mind.

[Mizzy]

Vote Count:

Walnut 2 (charter, Macavenger)
Farkshinsoup 1 (Thesp)
charter 1 (Farkshinsoup)

Not Voting:

ShadowGirl, CF Riot, Lord Gurgi, Walnut, camn, Tinsley

10 Alive = 6 to lynch!

To answer your question about investigations, no, a cop who investigated a dead person would not get a result because the person is dead. Plus, the results are on the next day's opening day flavor text.

[CF Riot]

It should be pointed out, though, from a gamechoice standpoint, that the tracker following me would be a silly choice.

This would be an excellent choice. If you are scum and make the kill, the tracker follows you to a dead body. (This very much could've happened) If you are scum and did not make the kill, the tracker sees you do not take a target, and can refute your cop result if you give one. If you are cop and select someone, the tracker sees who you picked and verifies that it matches your result today to strengthen your unknown/paranoid result. Tell me one reason why a tracker should not pick you.
----

2) non-committalness and lack of scumhunting.
2) I say guess what? All that conversation has been useful, as it has led to me being convinced that Charter is scum.

I agree that Charter looks very scummy and the way he makes his case against you is weak. This however doesn't fly, because you're saying your lack of scum hunting has caused others to be more active, and you've used their activity for your(possibly the town's) benefit. You don't get to take credit for scum hunting by saying you made everyone scum hunt harder on you. Also, the usefulness of you thinking Charter is scum is yet to be seen since he's still alive. You don't get to take credit for finding scum before you know they're scum.

You're making good points about Charter but this is exactly the right move if you are scum. You're coming out today picking out a person with high probability of gaining votes and who also is lining up against you.
----

So you're confident that Fark and I are scum? Why did you investigate Batt instead of one of us?

Agree.

Because I have a read on you (I think). I did not have one on Battousai. (My cop philosophy is to investigate those whom little is known about.)

Hrmm. I can see the logic, but given the circumstances I would not have played it the same way. With the added fact that Batt just happened to die, this is really making me itchy.
----
I think Fark and I are on the same page. I like 514.
----
About the PGE stuff: I was the one who said Walnut could be the balance role, but I don't really have any proof of it. I may have been stretching myself out of shape there. I don't personally think Camn with her role would be scum sided, as the way the role is described makes perfect sense with both town and scum targeting her. If scum knew she was scum, she would only attract town targets, and I agree with Charter (shiver) that this would be unbalanced.
----
@Charter: Thesp calling innocent on a random townie would have been easier, but there are also ways for him to still be caught lying that way. (This is assuming he's scum.) Claiming no result whatsoever on a dead body is unchallengeable.

Charter who do you find most suspicious after Walnut?
Walnut who do you find most suspicious after Charter?

[charter]

@Charter: Thesp calling innocent on a random townie would have been easier, but there are also ways for him to still be caught lying that way. (This is assuming he's scum.) Claiming no result whatsoever on a dead body is unchallengeable.

Charter who do you find most suspicious after Walnut?
Walnut who do you find most suspicious after Charter?

Exactly my point. No one can challenge him if he's scum (hence why I say only brilliant scum would have pulled it off). I'm not too interested in lynching Thesp right now, but if his non-production becomes a habit, I might change my mind.

Still finding Gurgi the next suspicious because his case against Netlava is still BS.

[ShadowGirl]

Er, what's PGE?

Hn. It is awfully convenient that your investigation target ends up dead, but then again - I don't disagree that he wasn't a good person to get more insight on. Still, I don't think that this instance warrants a lynch.

Walnut is definate scum. Another tell is asking Thesp what he thinks now...

Well, he wasn't technically asking him what thinks - but why is that a tell?

Tinsley, speculating as to why Batt was NK'ed is the absolute dumbest thing we can do. ALL of it will be WIFOM and will lead to arguments the mafia will get townies lynched over.

I agree that it will be WIFOM, but it is still information - while we don't know motive at the moment, speculation now could help us later in the game. Isn't hearing from people nearly always good? Sure, trying to focus town is good and all, but stopping the free flow of thoughts isn't.

[Walnut]

If the mafia have someone who kills whatever cop or doc or whatever that targets it, then this game is HORRIBLY unbalanced and we must have some ridiculous town power to compensate. I'm just not seeing it.

Oh dear, the dreaded game setup speculation that everyone used accused me (and many others) of during day 1.

You're making good points about Charter but this is exactly the right move if you are scum.

Sigh. Please tell me what I should do differently if I was town- make bad points in praise of him?

@Tinsley: Charter has superseded Thesp on account of his actions on Day 2. I still find Thesp highly suspicious, but as I said in #501, if we were to lynch Charter and he were to be revealed as scum, I would advocate a Macavenger lynch on Day3.

[Walnut]

Er, what's PGE?

PGE = paranoid gun enthusiast.

It means that anyone who targets that player with a night action is killed.

(According to Charter in post #357, I just increased my scumminess by answering that question. Damn!)

[CF Riot]

No no, don't misunderstand. I don't mean your good points make you look more scummy. I'm just saying that while I take note of them, it will take more than that to change my mind about you because it's the right move whether you are town or scum.